Need some ...

[brianthesquid]

Hi everyone,

 

Like most first posts, there's a lot to say but I'll try to condense. I've been married for 10 years. This was my second marriage and my wife's first marriage. She was nearly 40 at the time and the first several years were very tough as we learned to integrate and be a couple as she was very used to doing things independently. About four years into the marriage she began to have an emotional affair at work. I was tipped off by someone who knew her and I started "researching" what was going on. My best guess is that it was not physical but when you've been lied to it's hard to know for sure. They spent a lot of time together. She called him at times when she used to call me. Eventually I confronted her, but not with everything I knew. My thinking was that if I simply asked some open questions, if she was honest with me we could work it out. In fact as I asked about the changes in her behavior and our marriage, I said that, "As long as you are honest with me, we can work through anything."

 

But this approach backfired. She blamed me. Said nothing about the other man and I was forced to gradually reveal what I knew, hoping that once the cat was out of the bag, she would level with me, we'd get it all on the table and sort it out. But that never happened. She denied every single detail until it was proven. Did they have lunch together? Did they go out after work together? Did they spend time alone in his office. Did they spend time alone in his office with the door closed? Did she call him outside of work? Did she discuss our marriage with him? The answer was always no, until I could "prove" otherwise. Usually based on things my friend knew, had heard or observed.

 

It was exhausting and went on for months until I finally realized I would never get the true story. I sent a note to the other man and told him how much damage had been done to our marriage and if he valued his marriage he should reconsider his relationship with my wife. After that the affair seemed to end, but they continued to work together for some time afterwards.

 

We went to counseling, talked and generally plodded along and in some ways our marriage gradually improved. At times it was as satisfying as I could have wanted. So the problem?

 

Trust. Seven years later and I still don't trust her. Most of the time this is a non issue, but if she goes away for a weekend with girlfriends (once or twice a year) or goes to a concert or out to dinner with girlfriends and gets home late, I get crazy. Almost sick. I don't eat. I can't sleep. I drink. I chain smoke cigarettes (not normal for me, I'm very casual smoker sometimes going weeks without one). When she comes home I'm a mess, but try to act like I'm fine because I don't want to spoil the good time she has had by reminding her of how hard it is on me.

 

For all I can tell, she's been a good wife ever since that affair. I don't like having to discuss why it took two hours to exhange something at the store or why it took two hours to drive home from the concert. It makes me feel so small and immature. But I can't seem to control my reaction to separation and insecurity since the affair. I keep thinking this will go away but it has been six or seven years and the "episodes" seem just as bad as always. I don't want to keep her from having a life outside of me and seeing the friends she loves. I hide my apprehension and encourage her to go and have a great time, but I know what's coming.

 

I'm starting to wonder if this will ever go away. Or if it's me and I'm just being immature and unfair. I wonder if I even did give up on this marriage would it be the same with anybody.

 

I'm sorry this was so long. Please let me know if any of you have any thoughts or suggestions. We have tried counseling and for one reason or another it never seems to last past the third session.

 

Thanks for listening.

Edited July 15, 2011 by brianthesquid
Title was not completed

[Summer Breeze]

Hi everyone,

 

Like most first posts, there's a lot to say but I'll try to condense. I've been married for 10 years. This was my second marriage and my wife's first marriage. She was nearly 40 at the time and the first several years were very tough as we learned to integrate and be a couple as she was very used to doing things independently. About four years into the marriage she began to have an emotional affair at work. I was tipped off by someone who knew her and I started "researching" what was going on. My best guess is that it was not physical but when you've been lied to it's hard to know for sure. They spent a lot of time together. She called him at times when she used to call me. Eventually I confronted her, but not with everything I knew. My thinking was that if I simply asked some open questions, if she was honest with me we could work it out. In fact as I asked about the changes in her behavior and our marriage, I said that, "As long as you are honest with me, we can work through anything."

 

But this approach backfired. She blamed me. Said nothing about the other man and I was forced to gradually reveal what I knew, hoping that once the cat was out of the bag, she would level with me, we'd get it all on the table and sort it out. But that never happened. She denied every single detail until it was proven. Did they have lunch together? Did they go out after work together? Did they spend time alone in his office. Did they spend time alone in his office with the door closed? Did she call him outside of work? Did she discuss our marriage with him? The answer was always no, until I could "prove" otherwise. Usually based on things my friend knew, had heard or observed.

 

It was exhausting and went on for months until I finally realized I would never get the true story. I sent a note to the other man and told him how much damage had been done to our marriage and if he valued his marriage he should reconsider his relationship with my wife. After that the affair seemed to end, but they continued to work together for some time afterwards.

 

We went to counseling, talked and generally plodded along and in some ways our marriage gradually improved. At times it was as satisfying as I could have wanted. So the problem?

 

Trust. Seven years later and I still don't trust her. Most of the time this is a non issue, but if she goes away for a weekend with girlfriends (once or twice a year) or goes to a concert or out to dinner with girlfriends and gets home late, I get crazy. Almost sick. I don't eat. I can't sleep. I drink. I chain smoke cigarettes (not normal for me, I'm very casual smoker sometimes going weeks without one). When she comes home I'm a mess, but try to act like I'm fine because I don't want to spoil the good time she has had by reminding her of how hard it is on me.

 

For all I can tell, she's been a good wife ever since that affair. I don't like having to discuss why it took two hours to exhange something at the store or why it took two hours to drive home from the concert. It makes me feel so small and immature. But I can't seem to control my reaction to separation and insecurity since the affair. I keep thinking this will go away but it has been six or seven years and the "episodes" seem just as bad as always. I don't want to keep her from having a life outside of me and seeing the friends she loves. I hide my apprehension and encourage her to go and have a great time, but I know what's coming.

 

I'm starting to wonder if this will ever go away. Or if it's me and I'm just being immature and unfair. I wonder if I even did give up on this marriage would it be the same with anybody.

 

I'm sorry this was so long. Please let me know if any of you have any thoughts or suggestions. We have tried counseling and for one reason or another it never seems to last past the third session.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Your post is why I left my xH immediately after I found about his A. I knew there was nothing in me that would trust him again and neither of us deserved that. He could have been the perfect H for another 40 years and I still would have wondered. Some can get past it and find that trust and some of us can't.

 

My thoughts are if you've been 6 or 7 years and you're still reacting this way it ain't gonna work but that's your choice to make. I guess I would ask you if you want to be feeling this way in another year or 3 or 10. I wouldn't give it another day but that's me.

 

I hope whatever your choice you find some peace.

[Kidd]

First, it sounds like you never adequately dealt with the first affair. One of the first steps is the WS starting to rebuild trust by coming clean with everything. That never happened and here you are 7 years later.

 

So what now? Sounds to me like you simply need to know. My opinion...you need to investigate. You can keylog her computer, bug her phone to see text messages, or put a GPS or voice recorder in her car. Sounds awful, right? I felt horrendously guilty until the first GPS download showed my W's car at a hotel from 10pm to midnight while she was "working." I stopped beating myself up pretty quickly.

 

Most people would say to trust your gut. In your case, she created the reason for your mistrust. And if you do this and find nothing, say goobye to chain smoking and hello to a good night's rest when your faith in your W is restored.

[brianthesquid]

First let me say thank you. Until I found this site, I've had no one to talk to about this other than my wife for a very long time. I lost the ability to understand if these lingering issues are my fault or understandable fallout of a deep betrayal. I guess I'm still not sure. As for total disclosure, I wanted it. I pleaded for it. But I couldn't get it and gave up. When I'm insecure, or ask too many questions says she is doing the right things now and

won't "wear the scarlet letter" for something that happened so long ago. Just having two people listen, understand and not put the blame on me meant more than you can know. I cried. I think I have a lot of something inside but I don't know what it is.

[jnj express]

There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, about what you are going thru---It's just the way it is.

 

Trust is shot, and may never come back, and anything out of the ordinary on her part triggers you---that is normal for a betrayed spouse

 

Did you ever lay in any boundaries, after you finally 'OUTED' the EA, and much as you would like to believe otherwise, it may have gone physical, otherwise why would the 2 of them be behind locked doors

 

Your wife seems to be very independent---since she lived most of her life by herself, she probably does not fear going back to that type of life------so--------if she cheats, and won't recant, you may very well end up with a D.

 

Do the 2 of you do a lot of things together, if not start doing so---

 

If you were on the outside looking in, at the 2 of you----what would you think your wife really thinks of you----if you come up with the opinion that she really does not respect you---then you MUST CHANGE that perception

 

If she respects you, she probably will not cheat again---if she doesn't think much of you as a man---she will cheat again, when the right situation comes along

 

But as to your original question---everything you are going thru is par for the course----sorry--it just goes with the territory!!!!!!

[brianthesquid]

Very interesting questions JNJ. I'll answer as best I can. I'm fairly confident she respects me. I'm the primary breadwinner. I'm a good father. I keep things around the house fixed. I'm kind of a man's man who relates well to women. Sorry if that sounds like bragging. I'm a little chubby too if that helps balance things out! But overall I'm easygoing, productive , funny and I don't ask for much. She WANTS to stay married to me.

 

Since she was almost 40 when we got married, she has a really hard time learning to integrate with a husband and a son and be a family. I had been married before and had expectations for what family life SHOULD be like. This was a source of great tension in the early years of our marriage and the primary cause of the EA. I think.

 

 

But no it's me. I don't want her to give up her friends or nights out. I encourage her to do things that I know will upset me because I want to get past the pain. But it never works. I either have to hurt, or I have to not care. Neither leads to a healthy place and I always wind up going through these really hard nights. But to summarize, I don't think she'll cheat again, but I don't know how to get over the first one and how much longer it might take.

Edited July 16, 2011 by brianthesquid

[jnj express]

Did you ever get the WHY she needed to spend all that timw with her co-worker---

 

Since she never left that job, and is still there, how do you know they are not still on contact, deeply underground

 

It was your gut, that tipped you the 1st time, what has your gut been telling you about now???????

[brianthesquid]

I think I got to the "why"? We were fought alot during the early days of our marriage learning how to be a married couple. As I have said, we both understood that some of this was due to the fact that she got married so late in life and was very independent and set in her ways by the time we met. I'm sure that wasn't all of it, but definately a contributing factor. So we were fighting a lot and she met someone at work who was cool and funny without the fighting. Me without the baggage and work of marriage. They even described each other as work "husband and wife". Which I found pretty insensitive.

 

She DID leave that job, but not due to the relationship. She was having some trouble hitting goals, salary was dropping. It wasn't due to awkwardness over the relationship. I don't know how the they continued to work together. When I think back on it, I don't believe I accepted that. I think so of the severity of it all sunk in later.

 

I'm not sure that I completely trust my gut, but I'd wager heavily that she's not still seeing that dude. It was 6-7 years ago. If it continued, it would have reached a boiling point that I would have noticed. My eyes are open now and I don't think I would have missed it. But also, I think the note I sent to the OM really scared the crap out of him. He had a wife and kids.

 

Again...I could certainly be wrong....but I don't think anything is going on right now. It's possible but I don't think so. She's actually been working very hard to be a very good wife since then to be fair.

 

But I still get pretty crazy if she goes away or out late. My mind goes into hyperdrive and I imagine scenarios that are more than likely completely fictional. But they seem possible to me at the time and they take on "feeling" of reality afterwords.

 

The other problem is that while I don't think anything is happening right now, I think the POTENTIAL remains if the right conditions develop (fighting, meeting someone who clicks, chemistry). After this affair, I never felt confident that she had that "absolutely not" gene. The one that without even saying anything specific, lets any potential OM or OW know they are completely wasting their time.

 

Anyway...some additional details....thanks again for your help everyone. I'm really, finally tryin to sort this out. Outside opinions are extremely helpful because I've never discussed this outside the marriage. For the record, I want any readers to know that I have discussed with my wife that I am seeking advice here and corresponding....so I'm being transparent. She'll probably read all of this.

[brianthesquid]

Hi,

 

Just checking in to see if there are any further thoughts on my issue. Really trying hard to sort this out finally and outside perspectives have been helpful. Thanks again!

[StoneCold]

The other problem is that while I don't think anything is happening right now, I think the POTENTIAL remains if the right conditions develop (fighting, meeting someone who clicks, chemistry). After this affair, I never felt confident that she had that "absolutely not" gene. The one that without even saying anything specific, lets any potential OM or OW know they are completely wasting their time.

.

 

 

Brian the POTENTIAL is there for just about anybody given the "right" conditions. The fact that she has cheated before simply means that she would likely have a higher potential...but the potential is always there.

 

 

Brian... you caught her cheating...you tried to work through it by going to counselling....its been 7 years and you still dont trust her...you're mind wanders the first opportunity it gets and it drives you bananas.... How long do you think you can keep this up? Because it doesnt look healthy to me

[ComputerJock]

If she never came clean, I would bet she did more than just talk with him I couldn't live with someone who lied, would never come clean, and has damaged my heart and my love to the point I question beig with her for the rest of my life. I'm afraid that I would have to gently walk away and start a new life. She may see she has killed the marriage and tell you the truth and all that happened. You need to look at resources on here and BS's experiences. I would have walked along time ago and saved 7 years of misery.

[brianthesquid]

Thanks again folks. Very good points. I know this has been an unhealthy problem for me for too long. In part, I accepted this because it stopped but most importantly there were children involved and I didn't want to disrupt their lives. But they are starting to leave the nest now. Also, I've been harboring the concern that to leave, or even get this worked up over an EA (understand that it could have been more but don't think so), as opposed to full blown A is an over reaction. Something I probably haven't taken enough time to explain that factors in and I'm sorry for not doing so earlier, my wife, since the affair has worked very hard to be a very sweet devoted wife. She is remorseful and loves me deeply. We are very good friends and share many laughs and happy times together. We both want this to work. It's just the lasting fallout that seems to come maybe 6 to 8 time a year or so. Also she's offered to give full detailed accountings of any time she does anything and has offered to not do anything that might set me off. I just hate to do that. I know I have to let it go but I haven't for some reason

[KathyM]

Hi everyone,

 

Like most first posts, there's a lot to say but I'll try to condense. I've been married for 10 years. This was my second marriage and my wife's first marriage. She was nearly 40 at the time and the first several years were very tough as we learned to integrate and be a couple as she was very used to doing things independently. About four years into the marriage she began to have an emotional affair at work. I was tipped off by someone who knew her and I started "researching" what was going on. My best guess is that it was not physical but when you've been lied to it's hard to know for sure. They spent a lot of time together. She called him at times when she used to call me. Eventually I confronted her, but not with everything I knew. My thinking was that if I simply asked some open questions, if she was honest with me we could work it out. In fact as I asked about the changes in her behavior and our marriage, I said that, "As long as you are honest with me, we can work through anything."

 

But this approach backfired. She blamed me. Said nothing about the other man and I was forced to gradually reveal what I knew, hoping that once the cat was out of the bag, she would level with me, we'd get it all on the table and sort it out. But that never happened. She denied every single detail until it was proven. Did they have lunch together? Did they go out after work together? Did they spend time alone in his office. Did they spend time alone in his office with the door closed? Did she call him outside of work? Did she discuss our marriage with him? The answer was always no, until I could "prove" otherwise. Usually based on things my friend knew, had heard or observed.

 

It was exhausting and went on for months until I finally realized I would never get the true story. I sent a note to the other man and told him how much damage had been done to our marriage and if he valued his marriage he should reconsider his relationship with my wife. After that the affair seemed to end, but they continued to work together for some time afterwards.

 

We went to counseling, talked and generally plodded along and in some ways our marriage gradually improved. At times it was as satisfying as I could have wanted. So the problem?

 

Trust. Seven years later and I still don't trust her. Most of the time this is a non issue, but if she goes away for a weekend with girlfriends (once or twice a year) or goes to a concert or out to dinner with girlfriends and gets home late, I get crazy. Almost sick. I don't eat. I can't sleep. I drink. I chain smoke cigarettes (not normal for me, I'm very casual smoker sometimes going weeks without one). When she comes home I'm a mess, but try to act like I'm fine because I don't want to spoil the good time she has had by reminding her of how hard it is on me.

 

For all I can tell, she's been a good wife ever since that affair. I don't like having to discuss why it took two hours to exhange something at the store or why it took two hours to drive home from the concert. It makes me feel so small and immature. But I can't seem to control my reaction to separation and insecurity since the affair. I keep thinking this will go away but it has been six or seven years and the "episodes" seem just as bad as always. I don't want to keep her from having a life outside of me and seeing the friends she loves. I hide my apprehension and encourage her to go and have a great time, but I know what's coming.

 

I'm starting to wonder if this will ever go away. Or if it's me and I'm just being immature and unfair. I wonder if I even did give up on this marriage would it be the same with anybody.

 

I'm sorry this was so long. Please let me know if any of you have any thoughts or suggestions. We have tried counseling and for one reason or another it never seems to last past the third session.

 

Thanks for listening.

It's extremely hard to rebuild trust after it has been broken. Most marriages where there has been infidelity involved, do not survive. I really believe once a partner crosses that line, trust can never truly be restored completely. But there are some guidelines to rebuilding trust that I have read about. (I'm a marriage therapist in training so I've done a lot of studying on this subject). First thing there needs to be is transparency. You are having a hard time because your wife has never owned up to the emotional affair, so you never got closure. I think you need to discuss the subject, even though it is something that occurred 6 years ago. If it is never truly dealt with, it will eat away at you and will prevent you from regaining the trust you had. Tell her that you need to talk about it, because it is affecting your ability to get past it. Tell her you need honesty, and you have chosen to forgive her, but that in order to rebuild the trust, you need the truth. Then discuss what happened. Tell her what you know and let her give her explanation. If you never get the truth and she never admits to the emotional affair, then I don't see that trust will ever be restored and you will live in constant doubt about her fidelity every time she is late in coming home, or leaves the house without an explanation. If she is willing to tell the truth, then you need an apology. You have been cheated on. You need to know that your spouse actually has remorse and you need a promise from them that she will never do anything to jeaopardize the marriage again. Then she needs to be transparent with everything she does. If she's going to be late in coming home, she has to call and let you know where she'll be and with whom. If she's going out somewhere, she needs to tell you where and with whom and when she'll be back. You need access to her Email accounts and cell phone. No separate trips or vacations with the girls. You are her partner. She belongs with you. This may seem restrictive, but once that trust is broken, transparency and boundaries are the only way it will be restored. But like I said, it can never truly be restored completely.

[StoneCold]

Thanks again folks. Very good points. I know this has been an unhealthy problem for me for too long. In part, I accepted this because it stopped but most importantly there were children involved and I didn't want to disrupt their lives. But they are starting to leave the nest now. Also, I've been harboring the concern that to leave, or even get this worked up over an EA (understand that it could have been more but don't think so), as opposed to full blown A is an over reaction. Something I probably haven't taken enough time to explain that factors in and I'm sorry for not doing so earlier, my wife, since the affair has worked very hard to be a very sweet devoted wife. She is remorseful and loves me deeply. We are very good friends and share many laughs and happy times together. We both want this to work. It's just the lasting fallout that seems to come maybe 6 to 8 time a year or so. Also she's offered to give full detailed accountings of any time she does anything and has offered to not do anything that might set me off. I just hate to do that. I know I have to let it go but I haven't for some reason

 

What makes you so sure this was only an EA? Fact of the matter is she was extremely reluctant to tell you the truth; it was only when you had cold hard evidence that had her dead to rights that she fessed up....and on top of that she only fessed up in portions as you brought it to her.

 

I'm not saying that sex was definitely involved but given that track record I'm curious what it is that convinces you that sex was never part of the equation....because sex tends to quite naturally follow emotional involvment.

[brianthesquid]

I understand that I don't and never will know for sure if this went physical. I also often wonder about the degree to which that matters. But the primary reason I don't think it happened, and this is going to sound very gullible to some of you, is that she swore on her father's grave that she didn't to convince me. She loved and misses her dad that kind of "swear" means something to her. Beyond that, I would say lack of evidence and gut instinct for what thats worth. Flimsy?

[David Cain]

You know it went physical. All you need is to keep snooping.

[JRoy]

brianthesquid, I am sorry for what you must be going through. It is a tough road, especially if you stay in the M.

My wife, and some of your situation, is like mind. A lot of time has passed since her A, but the lying has continued. Difficult to build or rebuild trust.

The pain just never seems to stay away for very long.

Concealing had been a help and you should continue to seek that help. But understand that the pain you are going through is a combination of the EA and the lies.

I wish very much I, or others had 'the answer'. Life doesn't seem to work that way sometimes.

My prayers and thoughts are certainly with you my friend.

[brianthesquid]

David, what makes you so sure it was physical? Do others agree? Is this a blind spot that I'm not aware of. Not saying you are wrong but you seem so sure and I'm wondering why? Thanks again everyone. Through these comments, though different, some consistent thoughts ate surfacing and helping. Your kindness, well wishes and understanding help too.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I'm starting to wonder if this will ever go away. Or if it's me and I'm just being immature and unfair. I wonder if I even did give up on this marriage would it be the same with anybody.

 

This is one thing I can guarantee. If you begin a new relationship you will go back to the way you were before all this.

 

Provided that you ditch the bitch.

 

However you choose to handle this I wish you the best of luck!

[fltc]

..there is no marriage.

 

Call a divorce attorney, make an appointment. Sit down with your wife the day before and tell her, "I'm not able to trust you because you refuse to be honest with me and I can't continue our marriage without trust so I've made an appointment with an attorney tomorrow to file for divorce and I'm urging you one more time to be completely honest with me about the affair. Depending on what you tell me I'll keep or break the appointment. Your turn to talk now."

[NervisPervis]

But the primary reason I don't think it happened...is that she swore on her father's grave that she didn't to convince me.

 

I was reading a post in a different forum where a guys wife swore on the family bible that was in her dead fathers hands at his funeral that she wasn't having an affair. She did that on her way out the door as she was heading to the motel.

 

Your wife never admitted to anything she wasn't caught red handed doing. Do you think you caught it all? Me either.

 

Look. You need closure and help. I'm guessing she won't give you either. Not unless she's strapped to a lie detector anyhow. And although I've got no problem with that as an interrogation method, what kind of a marriage is that where you strap your spouse to one?

[StoneCold]

I understand that I don't and never will know for sure if this went physical. I also often wonder about the degree to which that matters. But the primary reason I don't think it happened, and this is going to sound very gullible to some of you, is that she swore on her father's grave that she didn't to convince me. She loved and misses her dad that kind of "swear" means something to her. Beyond that, I would say lack of evidence and gut instinct for what thats worth. Flimsy?

 

 

Flimsy? Yes

 

"On my fathers grave..." What does that mean exactly?

 

They are just words dude....again I am not saying this happened but you need to base your conclusions on things a little more solid than meaningless words and cliche phrases.

Edited July 19, 2011 by StoneCold

[nyrias]

Ultimately you cannot disprove a negative. Lie detector test is very unreliable.

 

SO it boils down to the fact that there is no way to know for sure (in the absence of physical evidence).

 

If you cannot go pass that, you may have to quit your marriage.

[fltc]

Ultimately you cannot disprove a negative. Lie detector test is very unreliable.

 

That depends entirely on the skill of the person administering the test, they can be very accurate with most people, there are a few that don't react but a skilled operator can identify those and report accoringly.

[OldOnTheInside]

Absence of evidence does not equal absence of guilt, anymore than it equals absence of innocence. Fortunately for you OP, you don't function like a courtroom.

 

One way or another, you'll have to move on. Trust or no trust. Healthy, unhealthy, or ended relationship. Life goes on.

 

Anyway, I agree with SC and co. In my experience, the simplest and most reasonable answer is the usually the correct one.

 

If all the signs are there...what do you think that means?