Author D-Lish Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 It's sad when people think that having a "man" is life.... I feel bad for her and I am not saying this to get on woman's soft side either....Sometimes I mean what I write. I am scared of being alone later in life, but right now I am not letting it rule me...no more... I am slowly climbing out of the crater I dug and realizing life isn't all about having someone....having someone is only a sweet plus in life, but it doesn't have to BE LIFE. I'm slowly understanding this and I am being more content with myself everyday. It takes friends and being around people to get through the lonely periods, I'm successfully accomplishing that as of now and have met two new friends(guys) in the last three weeks, one is from the internet and we have scheduled bike rides now and one is my age, still single, but happy. Friends and activities are key if you are not in a relationship...find yourself and be happy with self and not think someone else is the only thing to make you happy. I wish more woman would see this...including you, D. Yeah, but I am good with being alone. I don't love it- but I won't compromise. I won't stay with someone that isn't my ideal partner just to avoid being alone. It's my friend that can't be alone- not me. I've had plenty of time to get to know myself- I've been single more than attached in my life. Glad you are getting out there- don't fall off your bike.
tigressA Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 I've never witnessed or even really heard anything like what you've described with this girl. It sounds way beyond creepy to me. It's not just your friend with the issues, IMO. The guys are just as screwed-up as she is, perhaps even more so. If a guy tried to hit on me while I was crying/otherwise upset I would be utterly disgusted.
Author D-Lish Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 I do read your threads....please don't be creeped lol. You don't seem good being alone to me. It's just the impression you give in some threads. Please...you don't have to further explain..I understand. I am getting out there so much now that I still cannot believe myself. Meeting someone on the internet to go bike riding? A year ago it would of been an easy no. I find myself throwing myself into conversation more too and finding people are comfortable around me. It slowly builds my confidence that is for sure. I fell off my bike three times in the last two days:D Not merely fell off, but rather thrown off after clipping a tree stump with my pedals and flipping. Then a high speed bomber run through some single track, hitting some sand and losing my front tire..wipe out! And then, taking a steep hill, hitting the other side where it kicks up and the entire bike being thrown out from under me. I'm hardcore at riding and MT biking hurts! It's just the name of the game and yo uhave to get used to it or go back to being a wimp. lol. Falling is funny- I love to laugh at people that fall... That may make me a bad person- but I don't care. If I saw you fly off your bike after hitting a stump, I'd laugh:lmao: I'd make sure you were okay first though:cool:. In response to your question about me being alone. No- I don't like it- but I am okay with it. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't make me happy just for the sake of not having to be alone. I'd rather be alone than be in a relationship where I am unhappy.
Crabbies Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 seems predatory... and then i watch strong, confident women who are equally attractive that men will not approach. That says to me, that they are not equally attractive... I am a broken woman and I openly displayed my broked-ness to my current bf. I did ask him recently how come it didn't turn him off. He said that he saw me as emotionally open - which to him is attractive. He doesn't like women who appear to be too together as he sees them as "cold". One of the things that he values the most in a partner is ability to feel and show deep emotion, even if those emotions are sometimes negative. . If the men were really predatory, they would be at a funeral or church service, or some other place where emotions run high, maybe a mall or popular fast food restaurant for teenagers, even a college campus. If a predator goes to a bar, they are looking for drunk women, not crying ones. Predators are purposeful, they don't just stumble into a bar like a normal guy and then hear a woman in distress, twirl their moustache and become "The PREDATOR." They are trying to be nice to your friend, not predatory. Yeah, I know, men are all criminals until otherwise proven, that's the world we live in. Most people, despite how they act, at least try to be good, and the bad they do is low level, thoughtless bad as opposed to Dr. Evil premeditated stuff. Your friend being emotional in public suggests to insecure men that she is without the powers of reason and therefore more likely to not see what they believe themselves to be - no one a woman with a sound mind would give any time to. Lots of men today are really struggling because they were lead to believe women don't get with men out of the simple desire for companionship and affection but out of NEED. In the modern world, what women need help with has become diminished in a way that makes it obvious to all. So they don't know how to advertise themselves anymore. Sharking the shallow waters looking for a damsel in distress because they doubt female sexuality to have the same motivations as male sexuality. Want, passion, desire, touch and the sharing of ideas? No. They still think we want a body guard to provide all our basic needs via their wallet. If only these fellas would realize what year it is and the world they live in. Some do. Others are looking for easy marks and tired methods. (Wow, this post sounds unbelievably bitter & harsh. I would avoid this kind of attitude like the plague.) Sharks are "predators," invisible aliens with dreadlocks are "predators," some creep at the playground with a pocket full of lollipops is a "predator," probably not guys who try to talk to a crying girl. Even last night- sad girl said to her 42 year old friend "what about you and D-lish?" You know what he said? "D's hot, but she'd be too much of a challenge".What does that mean? I'm straight up, I say what is on my mind- and I don't put up with BS ... That's a negative thing? I don't get guys. I think it means "difficult" as opposed to "easy", argumentative as opposed to flexible, harsh instead of gentle. Lots of work, but maybe, not worth the effort... D, I'm sorry, but your posts, especially the most recent one, seem to be giving off a strong, 'I think I'm better than her, why are they interested in her and not me?!' vibe. Basically, jealousy. She's your friend, yet you have said not one positive thing about her here, but all negative. Broken, spoilt, sad, naive. Why are you even her friend to begin with if she's so bad? There are tons of reasons a person could be interested in another. White Knight and predator syndrome are possible, yes. But I'm sure she has other positive aspects that you're ignoring, while you only mention 'she's average-looking'. Perhaps they see those aspects that you don't, or that you don't mention here. Good points In. She's a very nice girl, but she's very needy- and I guess that's also attractive to most of these guys. She just wants to jump into another relationship asap- because she says she's afraid of being alone- so in her vulnerable state, she's going to make a bad choice in a partner just to avoid having to be alone. She did this with her last relationship. She caught her ex cheating twice (and stayed with him- and minimized what actually happened). I've been trying so hard to get her to take a year off and get to know herself. I know she listens to me and looks up to me- but I think she'll jump into a new relationship quickly. The predatory behaviour I've been seeing lately is really quite appalling to me!! Interesting you label it predatory, which is negative... Is it not natural for men to make a move on a women they like? Perhaps the time frame you have designated for her is not what she wants or needs. Maybe she doesn't want to be alone for a year. Maybe, she has found herself and "herself" is a woman who needs a man in her life. You don't, and that's cool, but maybe she does, and clearly is well on her way to getting her needs met, despite all your "help"... "Confident woman" is often code for something else that's very unpleasant, just like "curvy" and "mature". No one wants to chase something unpleasant. Well I give up- it's hard to think you're making progress with someone- putting all your time and energy into trying to help- and they just decide to go back to old habits that haven't worked in the past. She's seeing someone- it's been a week?? Maybe 2? She met a guy on POF, had her first date with him right after the break up where she claimed she cried and lamented about her break up the whole time.... And he called her for a second date and she just called me to tell me that they have both decided to delete their profiles and date exclusively. WTF..... She's almost 25, and hasn't been single for more than a week since she was 16. But here is this guy she just met that wanted to see her for a second date when she cried and lamented over her ex on their first date. She's not understanding why I am frustrated and not happy for her. She was in tears talking to me yesterday- and apparantly today- she's ready to be exclusive with someone new. She's a broken young girl afraid to be alone- and I've tried my best to help her mature... But she doesn't get it. She's the average-looking, needy one, with offers on the table, of sincere one-on-one relationships, from several different guys, and still you think she needs your help and she has the problem... Don't you see the irony here? It''s complex. You see someone hurt and you want to help them. It's not just women that have this empathy or kindness thing going on. Then if you conflate this primal urge to help members of your community with feeling horny, and you get a confusing mix of feelings. Maybe some are being callous, calculated swine, but I bet others are far more likely to be acting on that strange mix of instincts. And when people (men and women) are being open and genuine that's a very attractive thing to many people. Perhaps it taps into our inner self and seeing someone being outwardly real appeals to many people, men and women. One thing men hate in a relationship is feeling disposable and not needed and with a together and confident woman that is how many feel. Dating women that need rescuing makes some men feel that they have a purpose in her life and aren't just some guy she can take or leave. Not all men of course but it is a common thing. Men like to feel like they matter to a woman. Logically I know that but when men see a woman that has her stuff together he wonders what she even needs a man for and right or wrong men like to feel needed. Because men feel like these women need them and many men tend to equate dependency with loyalty. I just came to the realization that I've never dated a man that had the tendancies to take care of me- and I'd like to have that. So maybe, there is something you can learn from your naive, needy, vulnerable friend... It appears that presenting as confident is a strike against me. My male friend told me the other night that I'm unapproachable. I don't get that- when I'm out, I'm always laughing and smiling and telling funny stories... I would think those attributes would make me more approachable than a girl that is sobbing, lol. But what you think isn't working for you. Your male friends are telling you the truth. Many men here are saying how they feel, but it seems like they are being ignored. If you want to be with and have a man in your life, you must understand them, It starts with listening to them. What they say about themselves, as opposed to what you and your other non-dating permanently single friends think. Here's my advice. Go back through this thread and spend time on the posts that offend you, fly in the face of your instincts, that come from 180 degrees away from your point of view... Be open and receptive to changing the way you think, your perceptions and try to understand men, as they are. Lose the negative branding, "predator" and suchlike... Stop thinking of men as evil, bad, wrong. Be humble, open, sincere and kind to men, yes even enough to be vulnerable at times. I think you will find the world a different place. Don't be afraid to change if your (love) life is not working. I know a man who dated a string of high-flying women, editor of a top fashion magazine, music company execs, etc... He ende up with a single mom of 2 who lived on the wrong side of town. He was not a predator nor did he have any "issues". He was a very successful self-made guy. His reply when asked why did he choose the last woman was, after a little pause, was simply, "It's nice to be needed..." Do not underestimate this powerful instinct in many men, it's not a bad thing. Especially when you want to be taken care of... (It's normal BTW...) Good luck!
Author D-Lish Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 That says to me, that they are not equally attractive... (Wow, this post sounds unbelievably bitter & harsh. I would avoid this kind of attitude like the plague.) I think it means "difficult" as opposed to "easy", argumentative as opposed to flexible, harsh instead of gentle. Lots of work, but maybe, not worth the effort... Good points Interesting you label it predatory, which is negative... Is it not natural for men to make a move on a women they like? Perhaps the time frame you have designated for her is not what she wants or needs. Maybe she doesn't want to be alone for a year. Maybe, she has found herself and "herself" is a woman who needs a man in her life. You don't, and that's cool, but maybe she does, and clearly is well on her way to getting her needs met, despite all your "help"... She's the average-looking, needy one, with offers on the table, of sincere one-on-one relationships, from several different guys, and still you think she needs your help and she has the problem... Don't you see the irony here? So maybe, there is something you can learn from your naive, needy, vulnerable friend... But what you think isn't working for you. Your male friends are telling you the truth. Many men here are saying how they feel, but it seems like they are being ignored. If you want to be with and have a man in your life, you must understand them, It starts with listening to them. What they say about themselves, as opposed to what you and your other non-dating permanently single friends think. Here's my advice. Go back through this thread and spend time on the posts that offend you, fly in the face of your instincts, that come from 180 degrees away from your point of view... Be open and receptive to changing the way you think, your perceptions and try to understand men, as they are. Lose the negative branding, "predator" and suchlike... Stop thinking of men as evil, bad, wrong. Be humble, open, sincere and kind to men, yes even enough to be vulnerable at times. I think you will find the world a different place. Don't be afraid to change if your (love) life is not working. I know a man who dated a string of high-flying women, editor of a top fashion magazine, music company execs, etc... He ende up with a single mom of 2 who lived on the wrong side of town. He was not a predator nor did he have any "issues". He was a very successful self-made guy. His reply when asked why did he choose the last woman was, after a little pause, was simply, "It's nice to be needed..." Do not underestimate this powerful instinct in many men, it's not a bad thing. Especially when you want to be taken care of... (It's normal BTW...) Good luck! You are so far off base with your perception of me. I don't even know how to respond because so much of what you said upset me and really made me feel attacked. I read your post and I felt like more of a piece of crap than I did when I started the post.
Crabbies Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 You are so far off base with your perception of me. I don't even know how to respond because so much of what you said upset me and really made me feel attacked. I read your post and I felt like more of a piece of crap than I did when I started the post. First off, sorry.. not trying to make you feel bad... only trying to help... I'm not attacking you I''m offering a different viewpoint which I guess is hard to hear... that was one of the things I suggested. Logically, you know I've got no reason to hurt you, I don't even know you. Don't be upset, just delete what i said and ignore it, or be upset and try it anyway, the choice is yours. I am sorry for upsetting you though, not my intention....
Author D-Lish Posted July 30, 2011 Author Posted July 30, 2011 First off, sorry.. not trying to make you feel bad... only trying to help... I'm not attacking you I''m offering a different viewpoint which I guess is hard to hear... that was one of the things I suggested. Logically, you know I've got no reason to hurt you, I don't even know you. Don't be upset, just delete what i said and ignore it, or be upset and try it anyway, the choice is yours. I am sorry for upsetting you though, not my intention.... I've never thought of men as "evil, bad, predatory" in the general sense. Just the guys in this particular sitution. I am not jealous of her, I sincerely want to protect her. She's like my little sister- I want to help her out as much as I can. I keep plugging along with dating despite having a husband that got another woman pregnant- that situation hasn't made me think all men are bad- but it has made me cautious. I want to find a good relationship- men often tell me i am intimidating- I want to know what I am doing wrong... But I don't ever want to be the crying girl that attracts guys that want to swoop in and rescue me. I would like a guy that has some caring instincts though. Am I wrong or weak for wanting that?
Nexus One Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 I want to find a good relationship- men often tell me i am intimidating- I want to know what I am doing wrong... Define intimidating, or better yet try to explain what those guys mean when they say you're intimidating, because there are different kinds of 'intimidating'. I would like a guy that has some caring instincts though. Am I wrong or weak for wanting that? No, sounds perfectly sane.
zengirl Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 I would like a guy that has some caring instincts though. Am I wrong or weak for wanting that? No! Nurturing men are better relationship partners (so are nurturing women for that matter), so it's absolutely natural to want someone with caring instincts. Nothing weak or wrong about it. I think it's natural to have some caution as you get older and are exposed to more of the potential downfalls of human nature. No one wants to live through the same bad **** twice. That's sanity. It's only a problem if it makes you overly cynical, and you never really seem to go that way to me, D Lish. You seem more cautious and cynical than I am, at 26, for instance, but that's just age and experience, and overall, you still seem pretty optimistic a lot of the time.
carhill Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 In such circumstances, those particular men (that they pick) may indeed be 'such and such' (presuming hurtful) and their feelings about those men and the circumstances are valid and hopefully the impetus to healthier boundaries and choices in the future. What has the person learned from their experiences? Just like a 'broken' bone can mend with proper care and time, so can a 'broken' woman. What I'm hearing from the OP is that her friend insists on playing soccer on her broken bone and then crying out in pain when it hurts and a pack of saviors rush in to comfort her, whereas the OP apparently is wise enough to stop playing, take some time off and let the bone mend. No saviors on her horizon. IMO, based on what I've read, she might consider herself fortunate for such types to bypass her. They're probably not compatible with her relationship style. So, if they self-select out, it's a good thing I, too, would be interested in hearing the OP's description of 'intimidating'.
homersheineken Posted July 30, 2011 Posted July 30, 2011 Define intimidating, or better yet try to explain what those guys mean when they say you're intimidating, because there are different kinds of 'intimidating'. No, sounds perfectly sane. Yeah I'm curious too to what they say about you being intimidating to approach .... How so? Specifically.
Author D-Lish Posted July 31, 2011 Author Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) I, too, would be interested in hearing the OP's description of 'intimidating'. In a nutshell, I challenge people. I used to be a counsellor, so when I recognize inconsistencies between actions and words .. I'll point it out- gently of course, but I don't let things slide. I can always sense when someone has more to say- and I'll draw out the real truths. I recognize when people aren't being honest with themselves- and I'll point it out. This 43 year old friend of my gf said the other night "OMG, you see right through me, that freaks me out". I challenge him all the time- not in a threatening manner at all- but if he says something that doesn't jive with his actions, I'll let him know and draw the truth out. usually by the end of some of our conversations he's throwing his hands in the air and saying "holy crap, you make me angry, but you're right". I will also tell someone (like him) when they are getting out of line... My friend will put up with a lot of BS from him (he gets angry easy, pouts like a child)... And he never pulls the same stuff with me that he does with her (because she'll put up with some of his tantrums and guilt trips). I won't. If he asks to get together and I can't, he'll give me a bit of a guilt trip and I'll tell him to get over it and I'll see him another day. My friend on the other hand will go out with him because she allows him to guilt her into it. I don't know why- I can get people to tell me things. It usually starts out by sensing some BS in something they are saying- I'll point it out and ask the right questions, and the next thing I know- someone's admitting they've been molested, that they think they are gay (for the first time), or something deep like that. I think I said in a previous post that I'd just met this new guy- a friend of a friend- he was at my place for an hour with people that had known him for years. And within a couple hours he's in tears admitting to me that the reason him and his gf broke up was because he walked in on her having sex with another guy.... Everyone else had known him for years- and he's telling me this upon meeting me for the first time (everyone was shocked because he'd never told them), Why did he tell me? Because I sensed something was off in some of the things he was saying, and I also sensed he needed to unload something- so I asked the right questions, and the next thing I know he's crying and unloading his feelings. I do challenge people. I am a gentle challenger- because I have an easy and relaxed nature, but I call BS when I see it. I don't know if the above makes sense- but I think it might intimidate men, that I have a little too much insight and am not afraid to point out what I'm seeing. ___________________ I just wanted to address this whole jealousy thing with my friend. I can't stress enough that I want to protect her- she's naive and she's vulnerable and not as wordly as some other girls her age- and I want to help her, I am not jealous of her. It's not about that- I love her, she's like my little sister. I want to help her make better choices in the men she dates- I just want to protect her. There is no jealousy- frustration sometimes, but I want the best for her. Do I question why I present as confident and it seems to be a problem for me? Yes I do wonder about that- but not in a way that I feel jealousy towards her. It does make me wonder what I am doing wrong though. I'm not thinking about the men that are hitting on her, because I recognize that a guy that swoops in on a crying girl 15 minutes out of break up wouldn't be attracted to the strength vibe I give off. It's an act though- I am not overly confident, I just present that way because I practice the whole "fake it until you make it" motto. I made the mistake in my first post as describing her as a plain jane type of girl initially- and I think people have jumped on that and assumed I am jealous she is getting attention from these men that aren't jumping on me. I was only trying to paint the whole picture- and illustrate that it is the "brokeness" that seems to attract the men- and that behaviour is what I wanted to explore. If I had stated she was a super hot girl crying over her break up- the answers would have been completely different. I am just trying to keep it real to get truthful responses. It bothered me all day that some posters accused me of being jealous when that couldn't be further from the truth. That's just not in my nature- I'm a nurturer, that's the role I am comfortable in. Sorry my response was so long. I appreciate people allowing me to vent and offer support (and criticisms- I'll take them too). D Edited July 31, 2011 by D-Lish
carhill Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 So, would it be fair to say that your mix of support and challenge is one that a particular subset of men might characterize as 'intimidating', or, absent that description, a combination they don't become lustful as a result of? Would you say your style is present right at the beginning of getting to know someone or does it evolve as the dynamic progresses? Is it possible these men see you as an annoying sister, even if generally loving and supportive, rather than a potential lover? Perhaps getting some insight from male friends would be helpful, ones who can be straightforward yet balanced in their explanation why they don't feel 'it' with you. Compared to your younger, 'broken' friend, your description finds me visualizing you as someone who projects herself out there as opposed to living totally within yourself, which broken people often do, and this projection leaving less room for people to connect with that part within you. In my case, and my PM box and personal interactions with women on LS support it, such behaviors in a man are viewed more as those of a therapist or brother rather than a man who is attractive sexually. For sure, they 'like' having such men in their life but are not 'attracted' to them. Any insight from your end on that?
zengirl Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 So, would it be fair to say that your mix of support and challenge is one that a particular subset of men might characterize as 'intimidating', or, absent that description, a combination they don't become lustful as a result of? Would you say your style is present right at the beginning of getting to know someone or does it evolve as the dynamic progresses? Is it possible these men see you as an annoying sister, even if generally loving and supportive, rather than a potential lover? Perhaps getting some insight from male friends would be helpful, ones who can be straightforward yet balanced in their explanation why they don't feel 'it' with you. Compared to your younger, 'broken' friend, your description finds me visualizing you as someone who projects herself out there as opposed to living totally within yourself, which broken people often do, and this projection leaving less room for people to connect with that part within you. In my case, and my PM box and personal interactions with women on LS support it, such behaviors in a man are viewed more as those of a therapist or brother rather than a man who is attractive sexually. For sure, they 'like' having such men in their life but are not 'attracted' to them. Any insight from your end on that? Interesting, and I'm interested to see how D Lish responds with her experiences. However. . . Do you really think those dynamics are hugely at play (in either case -- the male or female one you describe) in a bad way, carhill? After all both the OP and yourself have had long-term relationships and attracted plenty of people of the opposite sex, based on your respective posting histories, so does the fact that other members of the opposite sex see you differently than that and non-romantic really matter? Perhaps that's just a naturally effective way of weeding out incompatible partners.
carhill Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Yeah, perhaps this is where the young 'broken' friend is actually teaching her older adviser by example, in that the men who want to date broken women would be likely incompatible with her relationship and emotional styles. In my own case, when I was younger and had fewer options, I did engage those broken women who approached me and invested in them, partly due to lack of options and partly due to not clearly understanding the meaning of such incompatibilities. IMO, if there was a course in high school way back when which covered what we covered in our year+ of MC, it could have changed my life. I won't speak for D but I'm fine with the role of therapist and brother in this realm but it is instructive to understand the nuances of that perception so as to catch myself IRL and remember those behaviors aren't necessarily attractive to a woman I might wish to pursue romantically. That may underscore the gender socio-sexual roles differences, in that a man's behavior in pursuit is necessarily overt and seen. Sounds a bit phallic, but hey . D's described 'intimidating' behaviors are overt because she chooses to put them out there, where her socio-sexual role *could* remain relatively passive and still be successful. That's apparently not her style but it is a marked potential, one which historically a man like myself would never enjoy. I've watched that carefully during my past 2.5 years of celibacy and find it to be quite true. Is her young friend's 'broken' style, riding the rollercoaster of emotion and drama and rapid change 'better' or 'worse' than D's style of analysis and reflection and measured investment, as well as the aforementioned challenge and support? Unknown. Each has its positives and negatives. I only have a few datapoints of demonstrably 'broken' women whom I've known more than a generation to draw from, but apparently, no matter the negatives, it does work for them. I've come to see it as a vortex I might observe but prefer to remain out of its grasp. YMMV. Edited July 31, 2011 by carhill
zengirl Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 In a nutshell, I challenge people. I used to be a counsellor, so when I recognize inconsistencies between actions and words .. I'll point it out- gently of course, but I don't let things slide. I can always sense when someone has more to say- and I'll draw out the real truths. I recognize when people aren't being honest with themselves- and I'll point it out. This 43 year old friend of my gf said the other night "OMG, you see right through me, that freaks me out". I challenge him all the time- not in a threatening manner at all- but if he says something that doesn't jive with his actions, I'll let him know and draw the truth out. usually by the end of some of our conversations he's throwing his hands in the air and saying "holy crap, you make me angry, but you're right". I will also tell someone (like him) when they are getting out of line... My friend will put up with a lot of BS from him (he gets angry easy, pouts like a child)... And he never pulls the same stuff with me that he does with her (because she'll put up with some of his tantrums and guilt trips). I won't. To my point with carhill above, I don't really know why you'd want the guys that would be most attracted to your friend (I'm not saying you do, really). There is "intimidating" where I'm like --- now is that just a nice word for bitch? But that's never been my view of you, and this (what's written) is certainly not that. There are some women who think men are threatened and intimidated by them, but really: the woman is just kind of acting like an angry bitch. I'm sure you've seen that phenomenon as well, as you seem savvy to human behavior, D. You seem like you may have some walls, developed over time and scars, but nothing like that. I think I'm similar to you. I'm in a different generation, so it's likely different. Not as many women in your generation know how to be productively assertive---not enough women even in MY generation know how to be productively assertive. It's part of socialization we're still working on correcting. Both male and female socialization need some adjustments still in many ways, and this is one of them. But that's all this sounds like---it sounds like you're assertive and you know people. Well, for people who don't want to be known --- which is everyone on the planet who doesn't want to face their own issues (which is far too many people) --- that's scary and intimidating. So what? You're the kind of person who can give and take constructive criticism, the kind of person who faces your issues and presumably wants others to do the same, and the kind of person who would never fit with someone like that. Would you really be happy with any of these guys? I don't know if I've ever "intimidated" a man out of being attracted to me, but probably some of my male friends feel similarly; not necessarily intimidated but that they would feel "seen through" if they dated a girl like me, and in an uncomfortable way. . . And that's cool by me. That's why they can be my male friends and not try to hit on me all the time. My current BF loves my perception, he loves when I call him on his BS, and he'll call me on mine. I've had this before, and it's awesome. I don't know how I could ever date anyone who was bothered by that or wouldn't give me the same level of perception. The truth is, the healthier/older/more aware of yourself you get, the fewer partners there really are for you, because part of being healthy is eliminating vastly incompatible people. When we're young or unhealthy or unaware, it's easier to date people VASTLY wrong for us --- which is the majority for everyone, I think --- because we want to be dating and they're there and attractive enough and we're just sort of floundering about. I just think it slows down later, and I think if it doesn't slow down, that's likely the bigger issue because it means you're still flailing all over the place. YMMV.
Author D-Lish Posted July 31, 2011 Author Posted July 31, 2011 So, would it be fair to say that your mix of support and challenge is one that a particular subset of men might characterize as 'intimidating', or, absent that description, a combination they don't become lustful as a result of? Would you say your style is present right at the beginning of getting to know someone or does it evolve as the dynamic progresses? Is it possible these men see you as an annoying sister, even if generally loving and supportive, rather than a potential lover? Perhaps getting some insight from male friends would be helpful, ones who can be straightforward yet balanced in their explanation why they don't feel 'it' with you. Compared to your younger, 'broken' friend, your description finds me visualizing you as someone who projects herself out there as opposed to living totally within yourself, which broken people often do, and this projection leaving less room for people to connect with that part within you. In my case, and my PM box and personal interactions with women on LS support it, such behaviors in a man are viewed more as those of a therapist or brother rather than a man who is attractive sexually. For sure, they 'like' having such men in their life but are not 'attracted' to them. Any insight from your end on that? Yes, I've been told by men when they meet me they feel an instant connection= and I've heard the word sister come up too, lol. I guess I never thought of myself as "annoying" because I don't put up with BS, but maybe I should consider that's how I am coming off. I have a lot of male friends- most of them have tried to sleep with me at one point (as men often do)- but I'll friend zone right away when I don't feel anything. I have had many male room mates over the years. I moved a couple of months ago because my room mate's gf made things so uncomfortable for me. Him and I used to have lots of good talks about male/female stuff. I've known him for years- he tried to sleep with me when we first met and I knew he was a player (a pilot- a girl in every timezone)... So I called him on it and told him he needed a positive friendship with a female that didn't involve sleeping with her. We've been close friends ever since. I'll have to consider the annoying thing. Maybe I should be less confrontational (even if it is in a gentle way).
Author D-Lish Posted July 31, 2011 Author Posted July 31, 2011 To my point with carhill above, I don't really know why you'd want the guys that would be most attracted to your friend (I'm not saying you do, really). There is "intimidating" where I'm like --- now is that just a nice word for bitch? But that's never been my view of you, and this (what's written) is certainly not that. There are some women who think men are threatened and intimidated by them, but really: the woman is just kind of acting like an angry bitch. I'm sure you've seen that phenomenon as well, as you seem savvy to human behavior, D. You seem like you may have some walls, developed over time and scars, but nothing like that. I think I'm similar to you. I'm in a different generation, so it's likely different. Not as many women in your generation know how to be productively assertive---not enough women even in MY generation know how to be productively assertive. It's part of socialization we're still working on correcting. Both male and female socialization need some adjustments still in many ways, and this is one of them. But that's all this sounds like---it sounds like you're assertive and you know people. Well, for people who don't want to be known --- which is everyone on the planet who doesn't want to face their own issues (which is far too many people) --- that's scary and intimidating. So what? You're the kind of person who can give and take constructive criticism, the kind of person who faces your issues and presumably wants others to do the same, and the kind of person who would never fit with someone like that. Would you really be happy with any of these guys? I don't know if I've ever "intimidated" a man out of being attracted to me, but probably some of my male friends feel similarly; not necessarily intimidated but that they would feel "seen through" if they dated a girl like me, and in an uncomfortable way. . . And that's cool by me. That's why they can be my male friends and not try to hit on me all the time. My current BF loves my perception, he loves when I call him on his BS, and he'll call me on mine. I've had this before, and it's awesome. I don't know how I could ever date anyone who was bothered by that or wouldn't give me the same level of perception. The truth is, the healthier/older/more aware of yourself you get, the fewer partners there really are for you, because part of being healthy is eliminating vastly incompatible people. When we're young or unhealthy or unaware, it's easier to date people VASTLY wrong for us --- which is the majority for everyone, I think --- because we want to be dating and they're there and attractive enough and we're just sort of floundering about. I just think it slows down later, and I think if it doesn't slow down, that's likely the bigger issue because it means you're still flailing all over the place. YMMV. Well, I hope one day I meet a man that can handle my strength as well as my vulnerabilities! I am definitely never bitchy. I go out of my way to make people feel welcome. I don't want this to come off as bragging- but I am really funny- I always have the people around me laughing. It's true- I feel no attraction to any of these men that are attracted to my "broken" gf, that kind of behaviour is a big turn off for me. It's interesting to hear from carhill that the whole "therapy" driven woman would be a big turn off to him. I guess I have a bit of that in me. I do often see rigth through people, and that might be annoying to a lot of people. When it comes to falling in love? Completely different... My radar doesn't work romantically- I always choose the wrong people.
daphne Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 In my case, and my PM box and personal interactions with women on LS support it, such behaviors in a man are viewed more as those of a therapist or brother rather than a man who is attractive sexually. For sure, they 'like' having such men in their life but are not 'attracted' to them. Any insight from your end on that? I'm not sure I fully agree. I once dated a guy that I was very attracted to, who happened to be a little bit of a caretaker. I'm pretty independent, but it was nice to have someone to lean on. It didn't work out, but it wasn't for that reason at all. However, I think I am a little like D and wonder if that can be off putting to men. I can get people to tell me intimate things about themselves very quickly. And I'm attentive to what they have to say and actually care, which is pretty much a rarety even in your closest friends these days. I think men prefer to be in charge, and knowing that you might have good insight to something that they don't see, might not be attractive. Very much food for thought. Hmm. It reminds me of a date that didn't work out, and I think it didn't work out for that very reason. :/
Author D-Lish Posted July 31, 2011 Author Posted July 31, 2011 I'm not sure I fully agree. I once dated a guy that I was very attracted to, who happened to be a little bit of a caretaker. I'm pretty independent, but it was nice to have someone to lean on. It didn't work out, but it wasn't for that reason at all. However, I think I am a little like D and wonder if that can be off putting to men. I can get people to tell me intimate things about themselves very quickly. And I'm attentive to what they have to say and actually care, which is pretty much a rarety even in your closest friends these days. I think men prefer to be in charge, and knowing that you might have good insight to something that they don't see, might not be attractive. Very much food for thought. Hmm. It reminds me of a date that didn't work out, and I think it didn't work out for that very reason. :/ I think it certainly can be off-putting if someone feels you can see right through them. It makes you a great friend- but it may not be an advantage when it comes to romance.
Feelsgoodman Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 Being good at prying sensitive, private information that people do not necessarily want to disclose may be a great quality for a councillor, prosecutor or police detective, but it is not exactly endearing in the context of romantic relationships. Men, in particular, do not necessarily seek opportunities to "unload" their feelings and emotions. Many prefer to deal with their problems in their own way. So it's not surprising they are uncomfortable around a woman who is constantly digging for inconstancies and trying to pry into their inner world. Being a rather private person myself, I would find such probing a major turn-off.
Author D-Lish Posted August 1, 2011 Author Posted August 1, 2011 Being good at prying sensitive, private information that people do not necessarily want to disclose may be a great quality for a councillor, prosecutor or police detective, but it is not exactly endearing in the context of romantic relationships. Men, in particular, do not necessarily seek opportunities to "unload" their feelings and emotions. Many prefer to deal with their problems in their own way. So it's not surprising they are uncomfortable around a woman who is constantly digging for inconstancies and trying to pry into their inner world. Being a rather private person myself, I would find such probing a major turn-off. I would never describe my style as prying. People will often tell me things unsolicited. This dude that told me he walked in on his gf having sex with another man kept saying things that indicated he wanted to talk about something- I simply said "what happened"... Then he told me and started crying. No one had bothered to ask him what happened before- and you'd think your friends would recognize you're in need of talking about something- but a lot of people are oblivious to it. He wanted to talk about something- I didn't even know him and I sensed it. I'm just sensitive in knowing someone wants to unload something. If I met you for instance- I'd sense you're not the type of guy that wants to give up his privacy, and I wouldn't try and engage you- because I'd know from your demeanor that it would bug you. I don't go at everyone I meet trying to play therapist- but sometimes you meet someone that you know has something to get off their chest- and they'll always gravitate towards me. Like Daphne experiences- Strangers will tell me things unsolicited after knowing me for a short period of time.... sometimes in just a few minutes. When I talk about challenging people- it's more about calling out BS. If you admit one day that you have a crush on a girl, and the next day you say you don't care- I'm going to tell you I don't believe you.
pandagirl Posted August 1, 2011 Posted August 1, 2011 Yes, I've been told by men when they meet me they feel an instant connection= and I've heard the word sister come up too, lol. I guess I never thought of myself as "annoying" because I don't put up with BS, but maybe I should consider that's how I am coming off. Weird, D. We've often talked about how we are very similar, and I have the same thing: people feel like they can trust me and tell me their problems right away. I'm very good at making people feel comfortable right away. Do you think it's because we're both pleasers in a way? We want people to feel good?
Author D-Lish Posted August 1, 2011 Author Posted August 1, 2011 Weird, D. We've often talked about how we are very similar, and I have the same thing: people feel like they can trust me and tell me their problems right away. I'm very good at making people feel comfortable right away. Do you think it's because we're both pleasers in a way? We want people to feel good? I think we may give off the vibe that we won't judge. My father is a man that never judges anyone- and I take after him. I tell my father EVERYTHING- and I know he'll never judge me. If you give off a vibe that you won't judge someone, people will tell you anything and everything. Most people could tell me ANYTHING, and it wouldn't phase me. I do know I give off that vibe. The truth is, I DON'T judge- and I think that makes it easy for people to unload things they wouldn't tell to others. After exchanging a lot of personal info with you through PM- I know you aren't the kind of person that would cast judgement on another. You like to nurture, just like me. Maybe it's not that we want people to "feel" good as much as we want them to be okay with being human and making mistakes. If we can convince "them" they shouldn't judge themselves- we reinforce to ourselves that we can make mistakes and not be judged as well...
pandagirl Posted August 1, 2011 Posted August 1, 2011 I think we may give off the vibe that we won't judge. My father is a man that never judges anyone- and I take after him. I tell my father EVERYTHING- and I know he'll never judge me. If you give off a vibe that you won't judge someone, people will tell you anything and everything. Most people could tell me ANYTHING, and it wouldn't phase me. I do know I give off that vibe. The truth is, I DON'T judge- and I think that makes it easy for people to unload things they wouldn't tell to others. After exchanging a lot of personal info with you through PM- I know you aren't the kind of person that would cast judgement on another. You like to nurture, just like me. Maybe it's not that we want people to "feel" good as much as we want them to be okay with being human and making mistakes. If we can convince "them" they shouldn't judge themselves- we reinforce to ourselves that we can make mistakes and not be judged as well... Maybe that's it -- we like to nurture. We attract men who know we will nurture them, not judge, and forgive and accept them for their faults. But it just comes at our expense. We end up giving too much, and not receiving what we want.
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