wheelwright Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 When things felt so traumatic for me - feeling my M was over while having been under a bus with xMOM, the thing I prayed for was peace. If I wished on a star, I did not wish for xMOM because I saw that wish coming true could impact on others in a way that caused suffering. I wished and prayed for peace for all concerned, because that was the antidote to the pain. Finding my own peace has involved ripping apart the fabric of my life and questioning everything from love to God to ethics. It has been a painful journey. I have not come out the other side with fewer questions. I am still interested in the interplay between people, love and culture. In posting I guess I want to say that although I did not get my desire, I did get my wish. And in coming to a peaceful place between my desire and peace, I have changed irrevocably.
heartinlove Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Great Post Wheel I too pray for the highest good for everyone. it just feels more right given others can be hurt than just praying for what I want. Peace is a great prayer. This too has caused me to rethink everything I believed to be true. Just wanted to say I really got your post.
Author wheelwright Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Great Post Wheel I too pray for the highest good for everyone. it just feels more right given others can be hurt than just praying for what I want. Peace is a great prayer. This too has caused me to rethink everything I believed to be true. Just wanted to say I really got your post. Thanks.
TurboGirl Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Like the song says, "You get what you need" and you are still on the journey, Wheelwright. I think that one day you will look back to where you were and see that where you are currently is soooo much better than what you desired and/or wanted at this point in your life. Great post... peace is an amazing feeling. :bunny:
silverplanets Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 When things felt so traumatic for me - feeling my M was over while having been under a bus with xMOM, the thing I prayed for was peace. If I wished on a star, I did not wish for xMOM because I saw that wish coming true could impact on others in a way that caused suffering. I wished and prayed for peace for all concerned, because that was the antidote to the pain. Finding my own peace has involved ripping apart the fabric of my life and questioning everything from love to God to ethics. It has been a painful journey. I have not come out the other side with fewer questions. I am still interested in the interplay between people, love and culture. In posting I guess I want to say that although I did not get my desire, I did get my wish. And in coming to a peaceful place between my desire and peace, I have changed irrevocably. Hi ww, I loved this post - and especially the part in bold. I wonder, though, if you did get what you desired - and that what you did desire all along was the peace you have now eventually found. I guess what I am saying is "I wonder what expressed itself as desire was actually a deep inner yearning for peace". I'm not saying it was and not saying that it has to be. It's more projection on my behalf :-) I am at a place where, when I look back over my whole life , I can see that all my outer actions were driven by a common inner purpose ..... but that this purpose was never fully clear to me. When I finally loved myself enough to drop all the false selfs, social defense mechanisms and all the other paraphanalia of life that we pick up as habits to surive socially I could finally see and understand the real me underneath. And it is from this point that I can now look back and see how, throughout my life, I have been trying to do what the real me needed without fully understanding who the real me was. A really bad analogy (for my life) might be a ship .... a ship with a destination and purpose that is hidden from the captain (but who knows that it is there). The poor captain would set the next port of call as best he could and then at some point a resounding NO would come from the destination and purpose room - but no explaination of why and what should be the next port. So the captain cancelled that destination and tried another. I used to be that captain in my life, valiantly trying to "guess" what the next port should be and then making radical corrections when I was told it was incorrect. It's different now, I don't play that role for my life any more. I've let the destination and purpose out and come to terms with it. So there's just me .... choosing in real time to do what is aligned with my direction and purpose. That for me is my peace. So, back to my point (eventually :-) ), I guess I am wondering if your desire wasn't just your "Captains" best effort to try and take you in the direction you thought you wanted to go???? 11 out of 10 if you make any sense of this post :-) best wishes Chris :-)
JaneyAmazed Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I like this thread! I think we have to work diligently to gain and keep peace. We will continue to gain and lose peace throughout our lives if we base our peace on circumstances. My goal is to be at peace regardless of the circumstances that surround me. I believe that it can be achieved with God's help. I also believe it can only be achieved if I am consistantly making right choices in my life. Every wrong choice steals my peace.
Owl Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I'm curious tho...do you believe that this process of bringing 'peace' to your life brought peace to the lives of your husband, your family, and those of MOM, and his wife and family as well? What cost the price of your peace? Was it worth it?
silverplanets Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I'm curious tho...do you believe that this process of bringing 'peace' to your life brought peace to the lives of your husband, your family, and those of MOM, and his wife and family as well? What cost the price of your peace? Was it worth it? Hi Owl, That's an interesting point. My own experience would be that the process wasn't necessarily one of "bringing peace to my life" but was rather more one of "peace came to my life when I created the space to listen, understand and love the real me". Again in my own case, people involved in relationships with me prior to this weren't actually involved in a relationship with me. They were involved in a relationship with the web of defences, selfs, social survival strategies and other things that defined my "outer me". In most cases they were also doing the same .... ie the person they were was a projection of who they wanted to be, rather than a deep transmission of the person they were inside. Did my "enlightening" cause pain to others. Yes it did, mostly because it forced them to look deep inside themselves at who they were, what their values were and to re-assess their lives. Did they ask for this? No - in most cases they would have been happier to go on "in denial". Do I feel responsible. Actually, no I don't. From my viewpoint now I tend to think that it is unlikely that anyone below the age of 35 at the earliest (in western society) has achieved any degree of honest self-reflection and inner peace. Therefore anyone pinning their hopes of happiness to another individual in this bracket is likely to find that at some point the person "evolves" and is no longer who they thought they were. This is not the fault of the people involved, it is just life and growth, and seems to me to be entirely natural. Of course, some people will evolve together and equally obviously there are people under 35 who have achieved inner harmony and people over 35 who haven't. I'm just making the point. What's the cost of the price of my peace? - Absolutely nothing. My peace meant withdrawing from unhealthy situations. Ultimately, a healing action for all involved, not an aggressive one. I wasn't aware enough when I was getting into these situations, so I had no "conscious" ability to choose not to get involved. Was it worth it? I don't believe my peace is worth anything. It just is. It is with me now, it is in nature around me and it is, to varying degrees,inside everyone I meet in the daily routine of my life. ... this is all just my personal experience though, so might not apply to others. Be safe Chris :-)
Owl Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Did my "enlightening" cause pain to others. Yes it did, mostly because it forced them to look deep inside themselves at who they were, what their values were and to re-assess their lives. Did they ask for this? No - in most cases they would have been happier to go on "in denial". Do I feel responsible. Actually, no I don't. From my viewpoint now I tend to think that it is unlikely that anyone below the age of 35 at the earliest (in western society) has achieved any degree of honest self-reflection and inner peace. Therefore anyone pinning their hopes of happiness to another individual in this bracket is likely to find that at some point the person "evolves" and is no longer who they thought they were. This is not the fault of the people involved, it is just life and growth, and seems to me to be entirely natural. Of course, some people will evolve together and equally obviously there are people under 35 who have achieved inner harmony and people over 35 who haven't. I'm just making the point. What's the cost of the price of my peace? - Absolutely nothing. My peace meant withdrawing from unhealthy situations. Ultimately, a healing action for all involved, not an aggressive one. I wasn't aware enough when I was getting into these situations, so I had no "conscious" ability to choose not to get involved. Was it worth it? I don't believe my peace is worth anything. It just is. It is with me now, it is in nature around me and it is, to varying degrees,inside everyone I meet in the daily routine of my life. ... this is all just my personal experience though, so might not apply to others. Be safe Chris :-) Interesting. I've noticed a common recurring theme among people who have committed infidelity and don't regret it...they're often "unapologetic wayward spouses"...kinda like the "unapologetic other women" we've seen here as well. They don't feel responsible for the pain/emotional devestation that others feel as a result of their choices/actions. They feel it was "inevitable". Frankly, and I apologize for how harsh this sounds...but it sounds like you feel it was their own fault for getting hurt...basically because they were foolish enough to put their trust/faith/love in you. That's rough. I get that others aren't responsible for my happiness...but at the same time...we all bear responsibility for the hurt we leave in our wake. If we make a choice, and others suffer because of it...we bear some responsibility.
Sharon1961 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I don't think peace is found through our attempts to heal after something that blows up our world. I do think peace is found through our attempts to transform. Emotional scars don't really disappear but we can rise above them. Nice topic.
pureinheart Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 When things felt so traumatic for me - feeling my M was over while having been under a bus with xMOM, the thing I prayed for was peace. If I wished on a star, I did not wish for xMOM because I saw that wish coming true could impact on others in a way that caused suffering. I wished and prayed for peace for all concerned, because that was the antidote to the pain. Finding my own peace has involved ripping apart the fabric of my life and questioning everything from love to God to ethics. It has been a painful journey. I have not come out the other side with fewer questions. I am still interested in the interplay between people, love and culture. In posting I guess I want to say that although I did not get my desire, I did get my wish. And in coming to a peaceful place between my desire and peace, I have changed irrevocably. Wow, very powerful WW. The road to peace can be a painful process..doing the right thing can bring great peace coupled with some pain. I'm glad your ok...
OWoman Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 If we make a choice, and others suffer because of it...we bear some responsibility. I feel that statement is far too generic to hold water. If I decide to take a class in Philosophy, and come top, and the kid who would have come top if I hadn't taken that class feels bad and their self esteem takes a knock as a result - that's MY fault? If I make chicken satay for dinner and one of the guests can't get a sitter and brings their kid along and the kid has a peanut allergy no one mentioned before, and the kid gets ill - that's my fault? If I decide a like coconuts and plant a palm tree in my garden, and one day a guy climbs my fence and slips into my yard to steal my ladder, and the wind blows and a coconut falls off the tree onto him and concusses him - that's MY fault? In each of those, I made choices. In each of those cases, someone else suffered as a result of my choices. Yet I fail to see how in any of those (hypothetical, in case anyone is wondering) cases I would be responsible. It strikes me that there are many conditional clauses missing from that massive assertion, including issues of intent, knowledge of outcome / pertinent factors, reasonability, and of course the responsibility of the other party/ies.
Owl Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I think that the context I meant it in was pretty clear, especially given the opening posts on this thread.
donnamaybe Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I think that the context I meant it in was pretty clear, especially given the opening posts on this thread. Wow, huh Owl? I got your meaning. BUT - If WW is feeling more at peace and has learned some things about herself, then good.
silverplanets Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Interesting. I've noticed a common recurring theme among people who have committed infidelity and don't regret it...they're often "unapologetic wayward spouses"...kinda like the "unapologetic other women" we've seen here as well. They don't feel responsible for the pain/emotional devestation that others feel as a result of their choices/actions. They feel it was "inevitable". Frankly, and I apologize for how harsh this sounds...but it sounds like you feel it was their own fault for getting hurt...basically because they were foolish enough to put their trust/faith/love in you. That's rough. I get that others aren't responsible for my happiness...but at the same time...we all bear responsibility for the hurt we leave in our wake. If we make a choice, and others suffer because of it...we bear some responsibility. No, I'm definately at peace with everthing. The ex's I am in contact with are at peace as well. In fact, as time has gone on, we all laugh at how young and naive we were all those years ago. I guess that is one of the few good sides of age :-) take care Chris
Author wheelwright Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 I liked the replies and the thoughts they have provoked in me. Funnily enough, before I logged on I was considering the question of suffering to others. Silver Planets the ship analogy is a very good one, and works for me on many levels as my thinking is evolving. On the level that in fact striving is good even if you do not understand your course or get it wrong, and also on the level that the whole 'destination' premise can be left behind for more 'peaceful' thinking. Owl, I agree that my behaviour has resulted in suffering all round. This still makes me sad. I am giving it a lot of thought at the moment. My peace corresponds more to what I do and feel now, than how I behaved in the past. However, I do not really know how to evaluate what happened in terms of the suffering. All 4 people involved in my A as BSs or WSs were in some way already suffering. Actually quite deeply in 3 cases, and in a less conscious way for the other party. Not all As have a feeling of inevitability. Some are just weakness or naivity. I have been wondering tonight why for some there is this feeling? There are 4 things in my life I have done knowingly and which I currently feel to have been glaring in their lack of clear sight and short-term only thinking. My A is one of them. But the other 3 felt wrong when I did them. I don't know why the A didn't feel wrong, but it didn't. I can see now the suffering it caused makes it a wrong direction to have taken. So far, the explanations I have are that 1. I was so cut off from a vital part of myself at the time that I could not feel the wrong, 2. that whatever the suffering in some way it was right, or 3. that it carried with it a kind of Karmic destiny for all involved. And equally all 3 may be possible.
Author wheelwright Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 Peace of mind is a wonderful thing and it's something that I've desired for a long time. All I can say is I have more peace of mind now that I've had in many years because I'm not doing something that is harmful to myself or others. My conscious is clear in regards to what I do today and what I've done lately. The past.......well it's there and I can't change it, but acceptance and learning from it is something that I'm striving to do. I am in a similar place.
Author wheelwright Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Hi ww, I loved this post - and especially the part in bold. I wonder, though, if you did get what you desired - and that what you did desire all along was the peace you have now eventually found. I guess what I am saying is "I wonder what expressed itself as desire was actually a deep inner yearning for peace". I'm not saying it was and not saying that it has to be. It's different now, I don't play that role for my life any more. I've let the destination and purpose out and come to terms with it. So there's just me .... choosing in real time to do what is aligned with my direction and purpose. That for me is my peace. So, back to my point (eventually :-) ), I guess I am wondering if your desire wasn't just your "Captains" best effort to try and take you in the direction you thought you wanted to go???? 11 out of 10 if you make any sense of this post :-) best wishes Chris :-) I like to get top marks, so we'll say 10 out of 10 this time. I wonder about that captain (my one!) and her efforts. I agree with a lot of the ways she ran her ship. I see myself differently now, so I do understand your post. In my more trauma ridden days, I did look to many of your posts with a yearning to be in a similarly peaceful place. But some things I was not sure about. I seem to remember that you felt indifference at some point, and I knew that was not a place that I would feel OK with. But I may remember wrong. I have let go of my attachment to many things since H moved out 5 weeks ago. But that is not the same as indifference somehow. Thanks for your lovely posts WW Edited July 15, 2011 by wheelwright
waytogo Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Wow, huh Owl? I got your meaning. BUT - If WW is feeling more at peace and has learned some things about herself, then good. I agree Donna. Also I think OWL is seeing an abscence of remorse in OP'S post. It comes across to me WW has remorse, but it could be missed. WW is going to a better state of mind, which is great. Some have missed I feel bad for what I did. whether mis-understood, I feel bad about it. I think WW feels bad about her past but is making peace with her present and future. I do believe that is the best towards doing better in the future. I have some harmony, but not peace. Out of the A is great, no more 'in love' thoughts of MM is great. I did very wrong by someone. I wonder if she wonders about things that didn't seem quite right back then, things I was a reason they weren't. Every part of me that screams to give her this disclosure also screams they are in a better place and I'd only do it to ease my mind. I don't sound nice in this post. Honestly, if you were on a corner I passed with a sign, I would bring you a sandwich. Maybe this should be new post. How do you do right to your past without disrupting the innocent?
pureinheart Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 Interesting. I've noticed a common recurring theme among people who have committed infidelity and don't regret it...they're often "unapologetic wayward spouses"...kinda like the "unapologetic other women" we've seen here as well. They don't feel responsible for the pain/emotional devestation that others feel as a result of their choices/actions. They feel it was "inevitable". Frankly, and I apologize for how harsh this sounds...but it sounds like you feel it was their own fault for getting hurt...basically because they were foolish enough to put their trust/faith/love in you. That's rough. I get that others aren't responsible for my happiness...but at the same time...we all bear responsibility for the hurt we leave in our wake. If we make a choice, and others suffer because of it...we bear some responsibility. Wow, so many points I want to touch on here, although the most important one to me is bolded. I don't ever remember an "unapologetic" OW or WS, that didn't take responsibility. They just chose not to beat themselves up, but nowhere did I see lack of responsibility. The same can be said for any BS that violates the rest of the marriage vows (or all of them in some cases) and then chooses to disregard any responsibility.
Gentlegirl Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 I honestly don't think I will ever have peace of mind again re the A. It will always be part of me and something terribly wrong that I did to others. To my knowledge, xMM told his W that the d day phone call was from a girl who had a crush on him at work. He smoothed it over and was dismissive about her, saying sh'ed forget all about it a few days. He rejoiced that he was able to "get away with it it"! After that, I never spoke to him again so don't know anything further. It really opened my eyes to how lightly he could treat people's feelings. He simply exlcuded her from having the right to make a decision about her own life. He denied her the right to knowledge about what had been happening in her world for 3 years. I feel guilty that he spent so much time and gave me so much attention. That is something is cannot redress without destroying her world and her belief in her husband. It is something I have to live with forever now. I do believe we are given our own person hells on earth. Best wishes to everyone, GG
silverplanets Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 Hugs.......GG and I understand where you are coming from. As I said....I'm more at peace now because of my present, but I'll always KNOW that I have made some terribly bad choices in my past. It's a cross I will bear. awww BB ... the bold bit made me sad to read. Life is full of choices, that's one of the wonders of it, and as human beings it is one of the gifts we have compared to other life on the planet. Of course, the ability to choose also means we have the ability to influence our path through life and perhaps, as we develop, we consider differnet things when we make choices. In the end though, I tend to think that people don't set out to make bad/harmful choices, they instead make what they think is a good choice at the time based upon whatever signals their life, surroundings, experiences, emotions etc are sending them. I think that is part of life and our journey through it. One really nice result of free-will and the ability to choose is that one can also choose, at any time, to quietly and gently lower to the ground any cross you are bearing and then stand up and move on without it. I hope one day you will be able to do something similar. be at peace Chris :-)
silverplanets Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 I like to get top marks, so we'll say 10 out of 10 this time. I wonder about that captain (my one!) and her efforts. I agree with a lot of the ways she ran her ship. I see myself differently now, so I do understand your post. In my more trauma ridden days, I did look to many of your posts with a yearning to be in a similarly peaceful place. But some things I was not sure about. I seem to remember that you felt indifference at some point, and I knew that was not a place that I would feel OK with. But I may remember wrong. I have let go of my attachment to many things since H moved out 5 weeks ago. But that is not the same as indifference somehow. Thanks for your lovely posts WW Thanks ww, You are right about the indifference. And yes, I think it is different from letting go off attachment. For me letting go of attachment implies that things do cause a trigger in you but that you choose not to let that trigger activate anything (sort of like observing it from a third party perspective) Indifference to me means that geuninly it does not trigger you at all .. there is absolutely no reaction in you at any level For me I think letting go of attatchment led to indifference and indifference led, ultimately to a deep space and peace in side of me, in which I was eventually able to locate myself.
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