Nexus One Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 no rape, no slavery, no holocaust here. But that's not what I was trying to say here at all. My point was not that there was some MAJOR crime or injustice committed. I used exaggerated examples to illustrate my point, because quite a few people for whatever reason didn't seem to understand it.
Queen Zenobia Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 But that's not what I was trying to say here at all. My point was not that there was some MAJOR crime or injustice committed. I used exaggerated examples to illustrate my point, because quite a few people for whatever reason didn't seem to understand it. No, I understand it (just like I understand stuff by Paul Krugman) I just don't agree with it. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Nexus One Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 First rape, now sociopaths and stabbing? Don't you think that's a bit over the top for someone who dodged some texts? Maybe step the comparisons down to being chronically late, getting a little too drunk at a party, or peeing in the sink when some chick is in the bathroom forever? Seems like this thread has gone out of perspective. Copy/paste: My point was not that there was some MAJOR crime or injustice committed. I used exaggerated examples to illustrate my point, because quite a few people for whatever reason didn't seem to understand it.
VertexSquared Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 I don't see a problem with him stepping out on a cheating woman. But I would see a problem with him misleading the woman he had sex with. As long as he didn't pretend he was interested in something more than sex with her, I think he's in the clear. If he pretended he wanted something more, that's not cool. I basically agree with this advice with respect to the situation.
Nexus One Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Seems like most people understand the guy is being a bit of a douche, but also, really, she doesn't rise to being a full-blown victim,does she? She had a ONS and the guy isn't returning her contacts, if she is the type who has ONS to begin with, she knows the deal or should. I was debating the underlying ethics of it, not the severity of the deed. Again, people indicated that: 1. There is no victim. 2. There is no deception. 3. The victim was at fault, not the violator. 4. It was consensual, regardless of whether he deceived her or not. I guess my real beef is that people can even think like that. The fact that what he did wasn't a major crime is irrelevant. The same ethical principles apply.
Jason Todd Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 You're making up stuff on the spot. We don't know what he said, but the fact that she called him means that he gave her his phone number. It also means she had the wrong impression of the situation. I think you can hold him accountable for that, because his motive was to have sex and then ignore her. (yet he gave her his number) So what if he gave her his number? Doesn't mean it's a possibility that it will bloom into a relationship. Why would you give someone your number when your intention is to never speak with them again? Right, because his intention was to deceive. And why would that person have the impression that she could call him after that night? My gut tells me that that is because he deceived her, because Woggle mentioned that his friend now says to treat women differently after his ex cheated on him and that he likes the "power" he now has. Some of you guys are clearly trying to defend the violator in this instance and blame the woman for it. My gut feeling is that you guys are doing that because you yourselves have pulled sh*t like this before on one or multiple people in the past, but you can't stand it when you read arguments that press your face into the truth of the matter. Who the f*ck are you guys kidding? Because if you extend your reasoning/logic into other facets of society, like law, then you'd get a system like in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, by court order, they stone 13 and 14 year old girls to death for getting raped, then let the rapist go free. Well, she probably was so stupid to get raped right? Because THAT is the line of logic you guys are following. If you defend a framework of ethics that follows that kind of logic, then you can all go f*ck your pathetic selves. I refuse to be convinced by your attempts to put the blame on the victim. You're being ridiculous and overly emotional. This is not a case of rape. And don't come with any pathetic attempts to pin this on semantics either. For f*ck's sake people, really.Oooookkkkaaayyy.....
Jason Todd Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Actually, you're making up opinions I have in order to make yourself right. Not true. I've stated repeatedly that ONS are fine, but that he's being an ass for not telling her to leave him alone and letting her wonder. You may have said ONSs are fine, but you're still blaming him as if he raped her. You only think he's an ass because it happened to you. Everyone else gets that this is my opinion except for you. No not everyone and your view isn't superior. And the rest was your attempt at "I know you are, but what am I?" Didn't work in elementary school and doesn't work now either. What? Talk about immaturity...
Enchanted Girl Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Not true. You may have said ONSs are fine, but you're still blaming him as if he raped her. You only think he's an ass because it happened to you. No not everyone and your view isn't superior. What? Talk about immaturity... Another "I know you are but what am I?" argument. Stop pretending you know what MY view is better than I know my own view. If my view was actually irrational, you wouldn't have to change or alter it in any way to make it wrong. You'd be able to point out the faults within it without changing anything. If other people and you don't get what my viewpoint is, then try to re-read my posts and understand it before debating me. Also, I've never had a one night stand or slept with someone on the first date, so it can't have happened to me. And even if it had . . . . . it wouldn't make me wrong. Also, saying that you don't understand what my viewpoint is, isn't saying that my view is superior. And even if it was, everyone in the world believes their viewpoints are superior to everyone else's. You believe you know what you are talking about and that's okay.
Enchanted Girl Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Oh so now it's just semantics when someone is clearly being stupid for thinking that a ONS will somehow turn into a relationship when there was no mention of that possibility. Because that's never happened EVER in the history of the world, right? WRONG.
Taramere Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) I was debating the underlying ethics of it, not the severity of the deed. Again, people indicated that: 1. There is no victim. 2. There is no deception. 3. The victim was at fault, not the violator. 4. It was consensual, regardless of whether he deceived her or not. I guess my real beef is that people can even think like that. The fact that what he did wasn't a major crime is irrelevant. The same ethical principles apply. Where I see the parallels with the extreme examples you presented is in the atttitude that the normal rules of treating others with a minimum standard of respect and kindness don't apply to women who have sex outside of a marriage or relationship. There's quite a lot of evidence on this board of that belief system. I see a lot of people boasting about their standards, and slapping themselves on the back for being Quality People. Whatever that means. Apparently, if this board is to provide the benchmark, it means looking around for the latest candidates to be dumped into the box marked "trash"...and loudly proclaiming one's own exemption from that trash category. We're told, pretty much, that once a person has been marked out as trash by these discerning folks, it's okay to treat them like trash. If you tackle them for it, they assume it's because you feel you personally are being attacked. It's evidently outside the bounds of their understanding that some people just have a strong reaction to seeing their fellow human beings being treated like trash...often for pretty trivial reasons or for behaviour that has in no way harmed anybody else. As you've pointed out, some of the posters are avoiding the inconvenient issue of this guy having an intention to make this woman feel bad...because that makes him feel more powerful. However behaviour reflective of that intention is regularly lauded on these "no more Mr Nice Guy" threads...so we can assume it's fairly common. Yet suddenly, when there's an example of somebody doing it, it's all righteous cries of "he did nothing wrong....they're both adults, she knew what she was getting into...if she thought a relationship might result from this then she's an idiot." A careful avoidance of the individual's very clear intentions in this matter. To make somebody else feel like trash unworthy of respect in the hope that it'll stop him feeling like trash who got no respect from his cheating fiance. Although we've already heard from Woggle that the guy is getting off on the perceived switch in power (ie no longer victim, suddenly persecutor - which Serial Muse rightly described as being the essence of drama), maybe there's also an element of nice guy feeling a bit cowardly about telling a woman who likes him "I don't want to spend any more time with you." That cowardice might be understandable, but I can't agree with those who say "there's nothing wrong with it." People should aim higher than that. If they want to be Quality People who Have Standards, that is. By failing to return a text, Woggle's friend is behaving in a discourteous and disrespectful way. It wouldn't be disrespectful for him to say "I enjoyed our night together, but I'm not looking for anything right now". That would just be honest and respectful of her desire to know what meaning she should attach to the night they spent together. Edited July 13, 2011 by Taramere
Author Woggle Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 I do think there is a no more mr nice guy element to it and while I do not condone it any form I do understand it. After being kicked around time and time again for being a nice guy it does feel good to switch gears. It's a short lived high but finally not being a doormat anymore feels great. I think that some women don't truly understand how it feels for a man when he finally realizes being a nice guy gets him nowhere. I do think he owes her a call because it is a decent thing to do but it does remind me of how some women these days shout from the rooftops about sexual freedom and the right to have casual sex like a man but then act like the man is wrong when they get just that. It's like a boxer getting in the ring and complaining about being punched. If a person does not like how a game is played don't play it. I would say the same thing if the genders were reversed.
Taramere Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 That seems fair enough. Understanding a behaviour doesn't mean you don't think it's wrong, and want the person to aspire towards something better. Especially if they're your friend. People do, after all, want to maintain a level of respect and admiration for their friends.
Jason Todd Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Another "I know you are but what am I?" argument. Stop pretending you know what MY view is better than I know my own view. If my view was actually irrational, you wouldn't have to change or alter it in any way to make it wrong. You'd be able to point out the faults within it without changing anything. And that's exactly what I did: Point out the flaws. If other people and you don't get what my viewpoint is, then try to re-read my posts and understand it before debating me. You mean read it again in hopes that I agree with you. Nope. Also, I've never had a one night stand or slept with someone on the first date, so it can't have happened to me. And even if it had . . . . . it wouldn't make me wrong. ...... Also, saying that you don't understand what my viewpoint is, isn't saying that my view is superior. And even if it was, everyone in the world believes their viewpoints are superior to everyone else's. You believe you know what you are talking about and that's okay. ......
Jason Todd Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Because that's never happened EVER in the history of the world, right? WRONG. Even if it does it happens rarely, and there was still no indication of him trying to hook up with her for anything else besides sex.
Nexus One Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) So what if he gave her his number? Doesn't mean it's a possibility that it will bloom into a relationship. He didn't have the intention to ever speak with her again after they had sex. So if you as a man know that beforehand, yet give a woman your number, then you're working her. And that's deception. You're being ridiculous and overly emotional. This is not a case of rape. No my arguments are spot on, that's why you conveniently evade them in your reply. I have already mentioned at least 3 times why I used that example. I'm not going to for a 4th time, because it's futile to repeat it ad infinitum. Edited July 13, 2011 by Nexus One
serial muse Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) I do think there is a no more mr nice guy element to it and while I do not condone it any form I do understand it. After being kicked around time and time again for being a nice guy it does feel good to switch gears. It's a short lived high but finally not being a doormat anymore feels great. I think that some women don't truly understand how it feels for a man when he finally realizes being a nice guy gets him nowhere. The trouble is that many women DO understand. What you're talking about is perpetuating a cycle in which nobody can claim to be innocent. Women have been on the side of this, too - some day, this woman may perpetuate it herself, remembering the jerk who didn't call her back and thinking "men never call back, I don't owe them any human decency." Would you, Woggle, say that it's understandable for her to treat your gender that way, since she felt badly used by men and wanted to reclaim some sense of power?? Would you really? That is why this is not about gender, it's about power trips and drama and desiring to have the upper hand. If your friend desires to play these games - and yep, they're just angry games - with a total stranger rather than with the person who actually hurt him, then he's giving up the moral high ground. There's no good reason not to call her back and say "sorry, not interested in anything further." No more Mr. Nice Guy = I get to be a jerk to total strangers because I've been hurt by someone in my past. Blech. I don't agree that it's equivalent to rape or betrayal not to call someone back after a ONS. But Woggle, your friend has outright admitted it's a power trip and he's paying it forward on someone who hasn't really hurt him. Taking all the drama out of it, he's just being an ass and a coward. Just tell him to call her and say "thanks for a great night, have a good life" already. In a larger sense, this isn't even about that woman - it's about your friend moving on in a healthy way from his heartache. His ex-fiancee cheated, so screw her. He went out and got him some. Good for him. Just don't do it in a way that screws innocent people. Why is that so hard? Edited July 13, 2011 by serial muse
donnamaybe Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The fact that she called him back has me thinking he wasn't upfront with her about his motive. Well, I guess since it wasn't clear that he lied to her to get her in the sack, I'm not going to assume that. That said, she shouldn't assume anything unspoken either. If she wanted to know whether it was a ONS or not, she should've asked before she slept with him if it mattered to her.
Enchanted Girl Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 And that's exactly what I did: Point out the flaws. You mean read it again in hopes that I agree with you. Nope. ...... ...... You have yet to actually argue with me and stop claiming that I hate the idea of casual sex. I think its fine. I just believe in common decency at the same time (a.k.a. telling the girl its time to move on.)
Enchanted Girl Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 I do think there is a no more mr nice guy element to it and while I do not condone it any form I do understand it. After being kicked around time and time again for being a nice guy it does feel good to switch gears. It's a short lived high but finally not being a doormat anymore feels great. I think that some women don't truly understand how it feels for a man when he finally realizes being a nice guy gets him nowhere. I do think he owes her a call because it is a decent thing to do but it does remind me of how some women these days shout from the rooftops about sexual freedom and the right to have casual sex like a man but then act like the man is wrong when they get just that. It's like a boxer getting in the ring and complaining about being punched. If a person does not like how a game is played don't play it. I would say the same thing if the genders were reversed. Because there's no "nice girls" out there who go through similar things? Not true. I am one of them. My ex had me so whipped in the relationship that other men actually got angry when they witnessed it. And I'm talking about his FRIENDS who should have been biased in his own favor. They, along with everyone else that knew us, were calling him an ******* and saying he abused me. He was my first boyfriend though, so I knew no better. I moved on though. Dated other guys and got to see that all men won't treat me like he does. I didn't hurt anyone in the process though and I still go to experience relief. Realizing that I'm allowed to be myself in relationships, allowed to say yes or no to things. Don't have to be terrified of a partners anger all the time and crap like that. I prefer dating nice guys and I don't use them. I just didn't know until I met my current boyfriend that they existed. I will never cheat on him.
Enchanted Girl Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 He didn't have the intention to ever speak with her again after they had sex. So if you as a man know that beforehand, yet give a woman your number, then you're working her. And that's deception. No my arguments are spot on, that's why you conveniently evade them in your reply. I have already mentioned at least 3 times why I used that example. I'm not going to for a 4th time, because it's futile to repeat it ad infinitum. He makes up what my opinions are too.
sally4sara Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 A coworker of mine just had his ex fiance cheat on him and he was heartbroken so I took him around my way for some fun this weekend. He had a blast and it was great to see him just forget about his ex. He starts chatting up this woman at a bar from Long Island and he gets her number. The next morning I find out that he met her at the hotel and they had sex. He said he needed to just have a good screw with a woman and be a man for once in his life. She is texting him and he is ignoring it. He doesn't want to hear from her again and said that it was just a one time thing. I must admit that he was a swagger I have yet to see and seems like a new man. It sounds messed up but maybe this is what he needs to finally grow a pair of balls. Is he wrong for this? Nope not wrong at all. Sex isn't wrong. Anyone of any gender that will fall into a hotel bed with a complete stranger doesn't need to have casual sex and its usual outcome explained to them. She knew. Now she is just calling cause the light of day has her questioning her own actions and hoping he will validate her by responding. She wanted laid. He wanted laid. Neither of them own the other anything they don't want to give.
Enchanted Girl Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The trouble is that many women DO understand. What you're talking about is perpetuating a cycle in which nobody can claim to be innocent. Women have been on the side of this, too - some day, this woman may perpetuate it herself, remembering the jerk who didn't call her back and thinking "men never call back, I don't owe them any human decency." Would you, Woggle, say that it's understandable for her to treat your gender that way, since she felt badly used by men and wanted to reclaim some sense of power?? Would you really? That is why this is not about gender, it's about power trips and drama and desiring to have the upper hand. If your friend desires to play these games - and yep, they're just angry games - with a total stranger rather than with the person who actually hurt him, then he's giving up the moral high ground. There's no good reason not to call her back and say "sorry, not interested in anything further." No more Mr. Nice Guy = I get to be a jerk to total strangers because I've been hurt by someone in my past. Blech. I don't agree that it's equivalent to rape or betrayal not to call someone back after a ONS. But Woggle, your friend has outright admitted it's a power trip and he's paying it forward on someone who hasn't really hurt him. Taking all the drama out of it, he's just being an ass and a coward. Just tell him to call her and say "thanks for a great night, have a good life" already. In a larger sense, this isn't even about that woman - it's about your friend moving on in a healthy way from his heartache. His ex-fiancee cheated, so screw her. He went out and got him some. Good for him. Just don't do it in a way that screws innocent people. Why is that so hard? I agree. Casual sex is fine. Finding ways to hurt people and getting off on it is not.
Mme. Chaucer Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 There's quite a lot of evidence on this board of that belief system. I see a lot of people boasting about their standards, and slapping themselves on the back for being Quality People. Whatever that means. Apparently, if this board is to provide the benchmark, it means looking around for the latest candidates to be dumped into the box marked "trash"...and loudly proclaiming one's own exemption from that trash category. We're told, pretty much, that once a person has been marked out as trash by these discerning folks, it's okay to treat them like trash. If you tackle them for it, they assume it's because you feel you personally are being attacked. It's evidently outside the bounds of their understanding that some people just have a strong reaction to seeing their fellow human beings being treated like trash...often for pretty trivial reasons or for behaviour that has in no way harmed anybody else. Have I told you that you're my hero? This so encapsulates a prevailing tone of LoveShack in general. Sad. It's interesting how rarely anyone even acknowledges this when it's pointed out, as you've done here so succinctly.
serial muse Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Have I told you that you're my hero? This so encapsulates a prevailing tone of LoveShack in general. Sad. It's interesting how rarely anyone even acknowledges this when it's pointed out, as you've done here so succinctly. I agree, that was a perfect summation.
samspade Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 A coworker of mine just had his ex fiance cheat on him and he was heartbroken so I took him around my way for some fun this weekend. He had a blast and it was great to see him just forget about his ex. He starts chatting up this woman at a bar from Long Island and he gets her number. The next morning I find out that he met her at the hotel and they had sex. He said he needed to just have a good screw with a woman and be a man for once in his life. She is texting him and he is ignoring it. He doesn't want to hear from her again and said that it was just a one time thing. I must admit that he was a swagger I have yet to see and seems like a new man. It sounds messed up but maybe this is what he needs to finally grow a pair of balls. Is he wrong for this? Wrong for having sex with a woman? I don't get it. If it was an "ex fiance" and she cheated on him (presumably that's why she's now an ex) then all is fair.
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