Emotional DEtachment/ protection mechanisms

[26pointblue]

I was reading waytogo's thread about how even single people can't be FWBs because someone's heart always gets involved . . . I have a lot of different thoughts about this that kind of go in a lot of different directions, & wanted to post a new thread so as not to veer off topic in hers.

 

I do think it's true that one person [someone both] usually does get more emotionally involved in a FWB or affair situations. [To me they're a bit different because at least FWB is usually spelled out, on the table, even if one person wants more, at least they know the nature of the 'relationship,' but an affair can involve manipulation & leading on the AP by making promises & not delivering]. But still, lately when I think about either the one who doesn't get emotionally involved or the one who does in these kinds of situations, I keep wondering, why?!

 

I think that if someone is in some kind of 'relationship' with someone that's not a full-time relationship & they are capable of keeping their feelings out of it & just basically, 'using', I guess, that other person, doesn't that signal some kind of basic brokenness or insecurity/fear or what have you? Also, if someone does get emotionally attached to an unavailable person- someone who by definition of the 'relationship' ['FWB' or 'affair'] can't or doesn't want to [or doesn't want to enough to make it happen] give them everything they should have in order to be emotionally involved with that other person, doesn't this also signal that they have issues?

 

By 'they' I'm including myself in the past . . . probably myself still in the present, as I'm still working out a lot of issues & realizing things . . . & not meaning to judge, just to examine/explore this issue.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately . . . both in terms of being single [which I currently am] & being an OW [which I was]. I have a good friend who says she can have sex without attachment or an emotional bond. In fact, as a very attractive, fun young woman she does have a lot of random, casual sex a lot & casually dates a lot. But I can see that it's just an act for her, a defense mechanism. She was very hurt by her first love who cheated on her with her good friend, & this is her way of not letting anyone close, & feeling like she's in control & calls all the shots.

 

It's really weird . . . she will act like she likes a guy [& I think she's kind of deluding herself . . . she does like him but doesn't want to admit it] & will be cute, playful, flirty, funny with him, want attention from him & want him to see her when she wants to see him, etc., but then she'll tell the guy about seeing/sleeping with other guys at the same time . . . like, she will literally be on a date & tell the guy she's been seeing that she hooked up with a different guy the night before. She will also start to be mean to the guy, like calling him out on embarrassing sexual things in front of their friends, or making insulting 'jokes' etc. It's like she has a need to hurt them before they hurt her. So while I think it may be true that right now she can have sex without emotional attachment, it's only true because right now she is incapable of emotional attachment. As in, it's not that she can separate sex & emotions, it's that, sex or not, she has no emotions or she doesn't let herself & she does self-sabotaging/relationship-sabotaging things to ensure she doesn't get attached.

 

I suppose in many ways I was no different with xMM. The sad thing is, she's a lot younger than me [23] & hopefully she'll move past her hurt & grow out of it, but I'm just now starting to learn. :-/ I used to say, & partly believe or even sometimes totally believe, things like, 'I don't want to get married,' 'I don't want to have kids,' 'I like the benefits of an affair relationship because I can have my full-time life & have the fun, excitement, great sex, being wined & dined, that I get with MM.' Looking back, I was deluding myself, & wasn't capable of truly having a deep emotional exclusive bond with someone. As I posted in another thread awhile back, I've realized now that I was afraid of being the 'wife'- hurt by being cheated on, or feeling dependent on someone who is cheating on me- so I would rather be the 'other woman' -- I guess, willingly accepting/asking for hurt & crumbs rather than having it done to me unknowingly? Because at least if I was getting benefits from it & felt in control then it was better than being devastated by actually being in love with someone & trusting him & then being hurt.

 

Now, I'm trying to be more true to myself & open myself up to the possibility of real love, even though it seems incredibly scary & risky to me. I do want to get married, if I find the right guy. I want all the benefits of an exclusive hopefully life-long relationship, & I've realized that comes with accepting the risks [funny enough, I used to accept the downfalls of an affair, telling myself I liked the benefits . . . but I couldn't do the same when it came to pursuing a real relationship-- I just told myself I wouldn't want that, out of fear.] I'm not sure about having kids due to my career & lifestyle, but I'm sure my priorities/way of thinking about having kids might change with the right guy/relationship, & I do think it would be awesome to have a family with someone.

 

I realize that when I was with xMM I was settling for less than I deserve/should truly want. I realize I was incapable of having a fulfilling relationship or a deep emotional bond . . . mainly out of fear of getting hurt, & not knowing myself enough. I was telling myself I was happy with what I had but I obviously wasn't . . . I wanted a real relationship with my xMM, or ironically enough, I probably wouldn't want a real relationship with him because the one we had was full enough of drama, deceit, & head games as it was. Rather, in staying with him I was somewhat purposefully-- & definitiely it was the result-- depriving myself of the opportunity to find a guy with whom I'd really like to work on having a real relationship . . . so, a defense mechanism, a bad way to go about 'protecting' myself because all I was doing was hurting myself & staying more miserable . . . a lot like my friend. :-/

 

I just thought I would share. I wonder if any other former OWs feel this way.

[fascinated]

Interesting topic, oddly spoke about this issue some in my individual therapy session today. We discussed how shame and guilt and pains from your past can affect the way you interact with people, shutting down emotionally and detaching. Affairs and FWB situations definitely fit into the shame and guilt scenerio, causing people to make poor choices and not believe they are worth more.

[waytogo]

I was reading waytogo's thread about how even single people can't be FWBs because someone's heart always gets involved . . . I have a lot of different thoughts about this that kind of go in a lot of different directions, & wanted to post a new thread so as not to veer off topic in hers.

 

I do think it's true that one person [someone both] usually does get more emotionally involved in a FWB or affair situations. [To me they're a bit different because at least FWB is usually spelled out, on the table, even if one person wants more, at least they know the nature of the 'relationship,' but an affair can involve manipulation & leading on the AP by making promises & not delivering]. But still, lately when I think about either the one who doesn't get emotionally involved or the one who does in these kinds of situations, I keep wondering, why?!

 

I think that if someone is in some kind of 'relationship' with someone that's not a full-time relationship & they are capable of keeping their feelings out of it & just basically, 'using', I guess, that other person, doesn't that signal some kind of basic brokenness or insecurity/fear or what have you? Also, if someone does get emotionally attached to an unavailable person- someone who by definition of the 'relationship' ['FWB' or 'affair'] can't or doesn't want to [or doesn't want to enough to make it happen] give them everything they should have in order to be emotionally involved with that other person, doesn't this also signal that they have issues?

 

By 'they' I'm including myself in the past . . . probably myself still in the present, as I'm still working out a lot of issues & realizing things . . . & not meaning to judge, just to examine/explore this issue.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately . . . both in terms of being single [which I currently am] & being an OW [which I was]. I have a good friend who says she can have sex without attachment or an emotional bond. In fact, as a very attractive, fun young woman she does have a lot of random, casual sex a lot & casually dates a lot. But I can see that it's just an act for her, a defense mechanism. She was very hurt by her first love who cheated on her with her good friend, & this is her way of not letting anyone close, & feeling like she's in control & calls all the shots.

 

It's really weird . . . she will act like she likes a guy [& I think she's kind of deluding herself . . . she does like him but doesn't want to admit it] & will be cute, playful, flirty, funny with him, want attention from him & want him to see her when she wants to see him, etc., but then she'll tell the guy about seeing/sleeping with other guys at the same time . . . like, she will literally be on a date & tell the guy she's been seeing that she hooked up with a different guy the night before. She will also start to be mean to the guy, like calling him out on embarrassing sexual things in front of their friends, or making insulting 'jokes' etc. It's like she has a need to hurt them before they hurt her. So while I think it may be true that right now she can have sex without emotional attachment, it's only true because right now she is incapable of emotional attachment. As in, it's not that she can separate sex & emotions, it's that, sex or not, she has no emotions or she doesn't let herself & she does self-sabotaging/relationship-sabotaging things to ensure she doesn't get attached.

 

I suppose in many ways I was no different with xMM. The sad thing is, she's a lot younger than me [23] & hopefully she'll move past her hurt & grow out of it, but I'm just now starting to learn. :-/ I used to say, & partly believe or even sometimes totally believe, things like, 'I don't want to get married,' 'I don't want to have kids,' 'I like the benefits of an affair relationship because I can have my full-time life & have the fun, excitement, great sex, being wined & dined, that I get with MM.' Looking back, I was deluding myself, & wasn't capable of truly having a deep emotional exclusive bond with someone. As I posted in another thread awhile back, I've realized now that I was afraid of being the 'wife'- hurt by being cheated on, or feeling dependent on someone who is cheating on me- so I would rather be the 'other woman' -- I guess, willingly accepting/asking for hurt & crumbs rather than having it done to me unknowingly? Because at least if I was getting benefits from it & felt in control then it was better than being devastated by actually being in love with someone & trusting him & then being hurt.

 

Now, I'm trying to be more true to myself & open myself up to the possibility of real love, even though it seems incredibly scary & risky to me. I do want to get married, if I find the right guy. I want all the benefits of an exclusive hopefully life-long relationship, & I've realized that comes with accepting the risks [funny enough, I used to accept the downfalls of an affair, telling myself I liked the benefits . . . but I couldn't do the same when it came to pursuing a real relationship-- I just told myself I wouldn't want that, out of fear.] I'm not sure about having kids due to my career & lifestyle, but I'm sure my priorities/way of thinking about having kids might change with the right guy/relationship, & I do think it would be awesome to have a family with someone.

 

I realize that when I was with xMM I was settling for less than I deserve/should truly want. I realize I was incapable of having a fulfilling relationship or a deep emotional bond . . . mainly out of fear of getting hurt, & not knowing myself enough. I was telling myself I was happy with what I had but I obviously wasn't . . . I wanted a real relationship with my xMM, or ironically enough, I probably wouldn't want a real relationship with him because the one we had was full enough of drama, deceit, & head games as it was. Rather, in staying with him I was somewhat purposefully-- & definitiely it was the result-- depriving myself of the opportunity to find a guy with whom I'd really like to work on having a real relationship . . . so, a defense mechanism, a bad way to go about 'protecting' myself because all I was doing was hurting myself & staying more miserable . . . a lot like my friend. :-/

 

I just thought I would share. I wonder if any other former OWs feel this way.

 

Since you called my thread, hope you don't mind

FWB was definately a defense on my part. Yet, those anoying 'love feelings'

 

Truly, I got lucky in alot of ways. My H always ended up where I was filling up on gas, buying groceries. It was like the whole world kept telling us b4 we explored it, for yeeaars. We don't live in the smallest of towns.

 

The FWB really was an attempt to be in more control for me. I'm not built that way. That would never work for the longrun.

[Woggle]

I am not morally opposed to FWB kind of relationships but I have found that they sound much better in theory than in practice. Somebody usually gets hurt. The one time I tried it it was a distaster.

[26pointblue]

Interesting topic, oddly spoke about this issue some in my individual therapy session today. We discussed how shame and guilt and pains from your past can affect the way you interact with people, shutting down emotionally and detaching. Affairs and FWB situations definitely fit into the shame and guilt scenerio, causing people to make poor choices and not believe they are worth more.

 

Yeah that's exactly what I mean.

 

It's like if there's a player they are usually good looking & I think they rely on their looks/external appearance to get what they think they want [laid] but I really feel they don't feel good enough about their inner self & think all they can offer is their looks & all they want is sex. I have been guilty of this myself, I am fairly attractive . . . I never really saw it because I guess I've had low self-esteem, but, on the other hand things have come easily to me because of my looks & so I don't work as hard on the inside to get what I truly want. I've realized I haven't had high enough standards & I've settled for less than the best because I don't feel good enough about myself so I don't aim for someone who would compliment the good things about me etc.

 

Also when there are girls or even guys who insist they don't get attached emotionally with sex & they are happy I am skeptical, because I used to be the same way & I wasn't happy, & it just makes sense that most people want to be loved & be in a fulfilling relationship so why do we cheat ourselves out of what we could have? I just put two & two together & realized that yeah maybe they don't get emotionally attached but it's because they can't. I have been through phases where I just hook up with people & it's meaningless . . . yeah I'm not emotionally attached to them but it certainly doesn't bring me happiness or fulfillment. And then there have been times where it might make me feel better about myself -like, validation through a guy wanting to have sex with me or thinking I'm pretty, etc. - but that kind of 'good' feeling doesn't last & external validation is sure to let me down, I know that, now. Same with my friend- she gets some kind of satisfaction from having guys want her, & denying them what they want [in her case they usually want to seriously date her & she rubs it in that she doesn't want that], but this doesn't make her truly happy.

 

I've just realized I can never be in a good relationship until I am okay with myself. Until I make myself happy, from within, & not look towards anyone else. And yes, like you speak about from your therapy sessions, until I break free of my fears & resentments from childhood/adolescence & realize I'm my own person & can forge my own destiny, as long as I let go of the past & don't live in fear. It's really a very enlightening concept. :) But it took me so long to get here & I'm still not completely happy with myself . . . just working on getting there. I feel I should take some time without dating & just concentrate on myself & then go full force for what I want - a committed relationship with a great guy - & not settle for anything less. I think if I'm used to being alone & happy with myself then I will realize that it's better to stay single than settle. Or to tell myself lies about not wanting a real relationship while staying in situations that are bad for me!

[26pointblue]

Since you called my thread, hope you don't mind

FWB was definately a defense on my part. Yet, those anoying 'love feelings'

 

Truly, I got lucky in alot of ways. My H always ended up where I was filling up on gas, buying groceries. It was like the whole world kept telling us b4 we explored it, for yeeaars. We don't live in the smallest of towns.

 

The FWB really was an attempt to be in more control for me. I'm not built that way. That would never work for the longrun.

 

Don't mind & actually appreciate the input. :-)

 

I don't really understand the part about your H ending up where you were filling up on gas . . . do you mean that fate brought you & your H together when you weren't even looking & you just had to open your eyes?

 

Yeah I do think FWB & affair type relationships are attempts at control. If we don't have to give all of ourselves & we know the other person isn't in a position to/ doesn't want to/ can't give all of themselves, we don't have to take such a big risk & we feel we are in control but really we are cheating ourselves & we aren't in control at all.

[Silly_Girl]

A friend of mine made a great success of a couple of FWB relationships. At the time she was putting some distance between her and her previous long-term R. She wasn't pining or upset, just wanted to not be beholden to anyone, but get laid well on a semi-regular basis. I know she's still friends (without benefits!) with one of them, years later. Not sure about the other.

[26pointblue]

A friend of mine made a great success of a couple of FWB relationships. At the time she was putting some distance between her and her previous long-term R. She wasn't pining or upset, just wanted to not be beholden to anyone, but get laid well on a semi-regular basis. I know she's still friends (without benefits!) with one of them, years later. Not sure about the other.

 

Good to know it sometimes works. I'm sure it does but for me either the guy wants more or I just find it unsatisfying.

[chalkfarm]

I am not morally opposed to FWB kind of relationships but I have found that they sound much better in theory than in practice. Somebody usually gets hurt. The one time I tried it it was a distaster.

So, in your FWB situation, why was it a disaster? Please elaborate.

[Woggle]

So, in your FWB situation, why was it a disaster? Please elaborate.

 

I found a woman who swore that she did not want anything more from a man than sex and I wanted the same from a woman at the time so I thought we were on the same page. She developed feelings for me and it got so bad that I almost had to get a restraining order. One night she showed up in my backyard and started stripping and only agreed to leave when I picked up the phone to call the cops. She acted like I used her when she knew what the deal was from the start.

[Spark1111]

I found a woman who swore that she did not want anything more from a man than sex and I wanted the same from a woman at the time so I thought we were on the same page. She developed feelings for me and it got so bad that I almost had to get a restraining order. One night she showed up in my backyard and started stripping and only agreed to leave when I picked up the phone to call the cops. She acted like I used her when she knew what the deal was from the start.

 

Great point Woggle!

 

A woman becomes bonded emotionally with a man thay have decent sex with. It is our biological nature to do so. Forget romance, love, and rational thought. It is HOW we are designed....

 

We begin to develop FEELINGS for men we are successfully sexual with, whether he is deserving or not or whether he wants us or not.

 

FWB is similiar to affairs for women....We lose all judgement and reasoning and accept lesser treatment and do NOT see the true character until our hearts are broken and he is long gone.

 

Here is the question: Why set yourself up for heartbreak??? If we KNOW women have this particular biological vulnerability, why think we can be "manlike" and accept NSA or FWBs arrangements long term?

 

Because we cannot. Our grandmothers were smarter than we give them credit for: They preached abstinence, and waiting, and admonished us that the man who truly had emotional feelings for us is the one who was willing to WAIT for us to have sex with him.

 

Fifty years later, scientists are finding some conclusive evidence in what our grandmothers already knew!

 

Inversely, a man in lust will use anything, absolutely anything to have sex with you, including words of future, love, romance, endearment, whatever it takes, to have sex with you.

,

Is he being deceptive intentionally? Or is he being mannish?

 

I think women project their emotional needs onto a lover, and men tend to project those needs back if it will guarantee they will get laid!

 

The more we think we are the same, the less we are proven to be anthropologically.

 

Do not set yourself up for heartache. Women and sexual fulfillment can be a deadly combination based on the latest research, IMHO.

 

That is why FWB and often affairs lead to such heartbreak.

[Woggle]

I don't know if that is it because there were tons of men who wanted more with her that she dismissed and thought of as pathetic but the first man to be perfectly happy with the FWB arrangement she loses her mind over.

[Spark1111]

I don't know if that is it because there were tons of men who wanted more with her that she dismissed and thought of as pathetic but the first man to be perfectly happy with the FWB arrangement she loses her mind over.

 

Well, that speaks to her not feeling she deserved more, and that the emotionally unavailable man, the one truly okay with a FWB, is the one she goes out of her way to "win" over.

 

Hmmmm....not treated well by daddy? Love doesn't feel like love unless it is almost impossible to win?

 

I would venture Yes to that childhood scenario. It is a classic example of a daughter raised by an emotionally absent or neglectful parent.

[chalkfarm]

Great point Woggle!

 

A woman becomes bonded emotionally with a man thay have decent sex with. It is our biological nature to do so. Forget romance, love, and rational thought. It is HOW we are designed....

 

We begin to develop FEELINGS for men we are successfully sexual with, whether he is deserving or not or whether he wants us or not.

 

FWB is similiar to affairs for women....We lose all judgement and reasoning and accept lesser treatment and do NOT see the true character until our hearts are broken and he is long gone.

 

Here is the question: Why set yourself up for heartbreak??? If we KNOW women have this particular biological vulnerability, why think we can be "manlike" and accept NSA or FWBs arrangements long term?

 

Because we cannot. Our grandmothers were smarter than we give them credit for: They preached abstinence, and waiting, and admonished us that the man who truly had emotional feelings for us is the one who was willing to WAIT for us to have sex with him.

 

Fifty years later, scientists are finding some conclusive evidence in what our grandmothers already knew!

 

Inversely, a man in lust will use anything, absolutely anything to have sex with you, including words of future, love, romance, endearment, whatever it takes, to have sex with you.

,

Is he being deceptive intentionally? Or is he being mannish?

 

I think women project their emotional needs onto a lover, and men tend to project those needs back if it will guarantee they will get laid!

 

The more we think we are the same, the less we are proven to be anthropologically.

 

Do not set yourself up for heartache. Women and sexual fulfillment can be a deadly combination based on the latest research, IMHO.

 

That is why FWB and often affairs lead to such heartbreak.

I'm never having sex again.

[Silly_Girl]

Good to know it sometimes works. I'm sure it does but for me either the guy wants more or I just find it unsatisfying.

 

And there's nothing wrong in that at ALL.

 

Why do you find it unsatisfying? Are you bound for the relationship holy grail (love and marriage etc) and so a FWB would naturally fall short? Some people never want to do casual relationships (or relationships where it's understood there's no long term) and that's fair enough.

[seren]

Hope it's OK to chip from a way back in the day experience. When I was in my late teens, early twenties I had, not so much FWB, more unemotional sex. I was of the mind that I liked sex and that if I wanted sex I was entitled to have it without all the hoo ha in much the same way the men around me were. I equated sex with feeling desirable, in control, like I had the power to make these men sleep with me, to want me and to walk away in the morning without a care. Big Wrong!! I was often left unfulfilled (not sexually) and easily discardable, on the outside no one would have guessed, I am very good at smoke and mirrors to conceal how I am really thinking, feeling.

 

It wasn't until I explored the reason why that it became glaringly obvious that my messed up past left me feeling never good enough, even though to the world and it's dog I was confident and assertive, inside I was still looking for someone to see who I was, I suppose that because not even I could deal with looking at myself in the eye, then I had casual relationships to prevent anyone getting too close and uncovering my 'self'.

I lost count of the number of attached men I turned away who were also looking for casual sex, I suppose for them I was the dream date, a couple became so infatuated with what they couldn't have that they left their wives or partners, came told me, only to be packed off home.

 

I think emotional detachment as a protection mechanism is oh so common, but not recognised until a person has looked at themselves, warts and all, made peace with who they are or at least acknowledged that they are entitled to more (if they choose) and begin to start liking and loving themselves. I was SA and had huge issues with being 'good enough' it can also make people, 'people pleasers' all in an attempt to be validated as worthy.

 

For me, the Aha moment came when I realised that I was a good enough person and that if anyone couldn't see and value that then they were simply not good enough for me.

[OWoman]

Great point Woggle!

 

A woman becomes bonded emotionally with a man thay have decent sex with. It is our biological nature to do so. Forget romance, love, and rational thought. It is HOW we are designed....

 

We begin to develop FEELINGS for men we are successfully sexual with, whether he is deserving or not or whether he wants us or not.

 

FWB is similiar to affairs for women....We lose all judgement and reasoning and accept lesser treatment and do NOT see the true character until our hearts are broken and he is long gone.

 

Here is the question: Why set yourself up for heartbreak??? If we KNOW women have this particular biological vulnerability, why think we can be "manlike" and accept NSA or FWBs arrangements long term?

 

Because we cannot. Our grandmothers were smarter than we give them credit for: They preached abstinence, and waiting, and admonished us that the man who truly had emotional feelings for us is the one who was willing to WAIT for us to have sex with him.

 

Fifty years later, scientists are finding some conclusive evidence in what our grandmothers already knew!

 

Inversely, a man in lust will use anything, absolutely anything to have sex with you, including words of future, love, romance, endearment, whatever it takes, to have sex with you.

,

Is he being deceptive intentionally? Or is he being mannish?

 

I think women project their emotional needs onto a lover, and men tend to project those needs back if it will guarantee they will get laid!

 

The more we think we are the same, the less we are proven to be anthropologically.

 

Do not set yourself up for heartache. Women and sexual fulfillment can be a deadly combination based on the latest research, IMHO.

 

That is why FWB and often affairs lead to such heartbreak.

 

I guess that makes me a man then, since none of this is true for me.

 

Oh well, farewell multiple orgasms - it's been really fun knowing you (Still, at least I get to stand up when I pee, now )

[26pointblue]

26, you are such a smart, insightful woman and despite your claims when you first came here of being a happy ow, I sensed you weren't really. I'm so happy that you are becoming the woman that you've always been meant to be and I'm proud of you.

 

I've also identified with many of your posts as in you could be talking about me, past and present. I'm just glad that you are doing this now instead of waiting till you are my age cause I think it's harder the longer that we go through life repeating the same mistakes. I'm not going to repeat mine but yet I question if I will ever be able to let anyone in again and besides that, no one is beating down my door, saying let me in. You however.........will be fine and I think you will pick a good man to share your life with because your man picker is no longer broken.

 

Hugs........to you hon, you've come a long way in a short time.

 

Thanks BB07, as you know you've helped me so much & I've always been able to relate to you. You kindly told me I was not as happy as I thought I was . . . & I knew exactly what you meant. I was 'happy' living in escape land/ denial, because it was easier than doing the hard work of really looking at myself & who I wanted to be & how to change. You saw right through me & I appreciate your kind support all along!

 

I think you will find your Prince Charming, he is out there. :-) I hope I do too although right now I'm really trying to focus on myself & not care about any guys. I believe when I am ready for a real relationship, I will find a guy who is, too. But I feel I'm kinda far away from that. :-/ It's exciting but something for the future, not right now. I don't want to be dependent on a man for my happiness, or to save me or help me . . . I want to help myself & be happy alone with who I am.

 

I've been reading the book Lit by Mary Karr & even though it's mainly about alcoholism it's also about her struggles to overcome her childhood. Right now I'm at a part where her therapist or AA counselor is telling her she has lived her life out of fear. She has not been able to break free & go for what she really wants. I can relate so much to that & am trying my hardest to change & not be fearful anymore.

[26pointblue]

Great point Woggle!

 

A woman becomes bonded emotionally with a man thay have decent sex with. It is our biological nature to do so. Forget romance, love, and rational thought. It is HOW we are designed....

 

We begin to develop FEELINGS for men we are successfully sexual with, whether he is deserving or not or whether he wants us or not.

 

FWB is similiar to affairs for women....We lose all judgement and reasoning and accept lesser treatment and do NOT see the true character until our hearts are broken and he is long gone.

 

Here is the question: Why set yourself up for heartbreak??? If we KNOW women have this particular biological vulnerability, why think we can be "manlike" and accept NSA or FWBs arrangements long term?

 

Because we cannot. Our grandmothers were smarter than we give them credit for: They preached abstinence, and waiting, and admonished us that the man who truly had emotional feelings for us is the one who was willing to WAIT for us to have sex with him.

 

Fifty years later, scientists are finding some conclusive evidence in what our grandmothers already knew!

 

Inversely, a man in lust will use anything, absolutely anything to have sex with you, including words of future, love, romance, endearment, whatever it takes, to have sex with you.

,

Is he being deceptive intentionally? Or is he being mannish?

 

I think women project their emotional needs onto a lover, and men tend to project those needs back if it will guarantee they will get laid!

 

The more we think we are the same, the less we are proven to be anthropologically.

 

Do not set yourself up for heartache. Women and sexual fulfillment can be a deadly combination based on the latest research, IMHO.

 

That is why FWB and often affairs lead to such heartbreak.

 

I guess the point of my thread was to disagree with this viewpoint [from waytogo's thread about peky emotional bonds] a little -- because in the past I have had sexually-based relationships with men & I have not become emotionally attached to them. [With some, I haven't, I mean . . . with others, I have.] In fact, the opposite has been true, where the guy has gone stalkerish & became very hard to get rid of!

 

But for me, I've noticed looking back that it is easy for me to have 'just' sex with a guy who is 'beneath' me . . . & I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but I mean, I guess I've had low standards for the guys I've been FWB with, maybe to protect myself from getting emotionally involved? They are younger than me, not as educated or professionally advanced, & honestly, they don't have the qualities I want in a 'mate', so as intelligence & ambition, etc. Usually they were attractive, & good in bed [or else why be FWBs with them, ha ha?] but that wasn't enough to make me fall for them emotionally. Now, if I try to have a just-sex relationship with a guy who is more of my 'equal' & has qualities I would like in a 'mate', that doesn't really work because I start to want more. But honestly I haven't tried it out with many of them . . . I really pick guys I definitely wouldn't to date seriously, & then, as human nature is I guess, those guys want more . . . they want to see me all the time, date me, get me to be serious with them . . . & I start to get annoyed hanging out with them or 'putting up' with them.

 

I know I'm sounding mean but it clearly hasn't worked for me in the past so I'm not doing it . . . but not because I am a woman & I got emotionally attached. The point of my thread was to say that not all women get emotionally attached but when I look at myself & my good friend who I mentioned, I see that it's because there was something 'wrong' with us . . . we were trying to protect ourselves from getting what we really want deep down - a fulfilling, committed relationship - by settling for NSA sex with guys we weren't really into. IMO this seems to be more common for guys to do but women definitely do it too, or at least she & I have.

 

Right now I am avoiding relationships of any kind with guys while I work on myself [not that I'd turn down a hot date with my dream guy . . . but, how often does that happen LOL]. And I think I've pretty much sworn off FWBs type relationships because they haven't worked for me . . . I've discovered that while I don't get emotionally involved, there are reasons/issues behind that, & I actually need both an emotional & physical connection to be truly fulfilled. I am tired of settling for anything less than the best so I'm going to just avoid it until I find the real thing. Why waste my time with guys who annoy me & become stalkerish, just to have sex? And why would I just have sex with a guy I was actually emotionally into? Either scenario, for me, is setting myself up for disaster . . . but I've had to learn the hard way ha ha.

[donnamaybe]

I think you will find your Prince Charming, he is out there. :-) I hope I do too although right now I'm really trying to focus on myself & not care about any guys. I believe when I am ready for a real relationship, I will find a guy who is, too. But I feel I'm kinda far away from that. :-/ It's exciting but something for the future, not right now. I don't want to be dependent on a man for my happiness, or to save me or help me . . . I want to help myself & be happy alone with who I am.

This is the best thing I've read on LS for awhile, and EXACTLY how I would like all women to be able to feel! Strong and self reliant! Yes, you want a man, but you don't NEED a man.

 

So many, even when they claim they don't, need a man. I've seen some say they don't want a R, so they're happy being the OW, but then also brag about how their MM pays their bills. If they need the guy to pay their bills they are put in the position of having to accept being second string.

 

I've always taught my daughter to make sure that no matter what happens she can kick a man to the curb if necessary without facing financial difficulties. I want her to have choices and to be able to freely make them.

[26pointblue]

And there's nothing wrong in that at ALL.

 

Why do you find it unsatisfying? Are you bound for the relationship holy grail (love and marriage etc) and so a FWB would naturally fall short? Some people never want to do casual relationships (or relationships where it's understood there's no long term) and that's fair enough.

 

Yes. Although I'm just realizing this . . . as I wrote above, I used to think I didn't want marriage/a family but now I do, & I think I was fearful of being hurt so I used to tell myself I didn't. But even when I was like 'I never want to get married . . .' those FWB-type relationships weren't fulfilling to me. It was more something I did because they just happened . . . I went out with a guy, wasn't really into him but wanted to have sex, because I like sex ha ha . . . & so we became FWB but usually he would want it to progress to something else & I guess my standards were low or I was just closed off, or both, because I didn't want a relationship with him, I just wanted to get laid, ha ha.

 

Now I'm getting better at being honest with myself [& I guess I've grown up/ changed] about what I really want, & realizing that the only way to get it is not to settle. Right now I'm not dating but I do want the 'relationship holy grail'. I don't even necessarily mean, I want to get married, by X date . . . I don't have the picket fence fantasies [that actually sounds boring . . . I like to travel & would like to be free to move if I wanted to, not tied down to a big mortgage etc.], I just mean, I want an exclusive, committed relationship, & I no longer see the point in dating guys that don't want the same, or that don't meet my standards for such a relationship. My city is notoriously bad for single young professionals so I don't meet many such men . . . in fact, I have met about two or three guys since breaking things off with xMM that I would consider 'mate' material, but, it quickly became clear to me [i'm better at spotting these things . . . I used to be really naive ha ha] that they were only up for booty calls, & not a real relationship, at least with me. So things didn't get very far because I am refusing to be a booty call & I have no interest in a FWB relationship anymore. I feel it is better to find out what page they're on right away & not waste my time . . . I've wasted so much time with xMM & other otherwise unavailable [emotionally] men . . . & I myself have been emotionally unavailable, hence why I suppose I got myself into so many of these 'relationships.' Not anymore. NEXT!

[26pointblue]

Hope it's OK to chip from a way back in the day experience. When I was in my late teens, early twenties I had, not so much FWB, more unemotional sex. I was of the mind that I liked sex and that if I wanted sex I was entitled to have it without all the hoo ha in much the same way the men around me were. I equated sex with feeling desirable, in control, like I had the power to make these men sleep with me, to want me and to walk away in the morning without a care. Big Wrong!! I was often left unfulfilled (not sexually) and easily discardable, on the outside no one would have guessed, I am very good at smoke and mirrors to conceal how I am really thinking, feeling.

 

It wasn't until I explored the reason why that it became glaringly obvious that my messed up past left me feeling never good enough, even though to the world and it's dog I was confident and assertive, inside I was still looking for someone to see who I was, I suppose that because not even I could deal with looking at myself in the eye, then I had casual relationships to prevent anyone getting too close and uncovering my 'self'.

I lost count of the number of attached men I turned away who were also looking for casual sex, I suppose for them I was the dream date, a couple became so infatuated with what they couldn't have that they left their wives or partners, came told me, only to be packed off home.

 

I think emotional detachment as a protection mechanism is oh so common, but not recognised until a person has looked at themselves, warts and all, made peace with who they are or at least acknowledged that they are entitled to more (if they choose) and begin to start liking and loving themselves. I was SA and had huge issues with being 'good enough' it can also make people, 'people pleasers' all in an attempt to be validated as worthy.

 

For me, the Aha moment came when I realised that I was a good enough person and that if anyone couldn't see and value that then they were simply not good enough for me.

 

Wow Seren [the past version of] you sounds so much like my good friend I was trying to describe. You nailed it. [No pun intended ha ha]. She feels in control by having guys desire her & not needing them, but I know, inside, that this leaves her feeling unloved & discarded. She has talked to me about being depressed, dissatisfied, generally unhappy with her life & wanting to make some changes . . . yet she 'brags' about her sexual conquests & says she can't understand why guys keep wanting more with her than just sex. I think she needs to put two & two together & realize that her sexual exploits & attitude are affecting her self-esteem, or vice versa . . . or maybe it's a chicken-&-an-egg type thing, but if living this way really made her happy, she wouldn't be so down all the time, not to mention so very mean to these men she dates. [Not to mention her constant STDs checks . . . I don't understand how she can put her health at risk in that way & still be happy/not always feel panicked.]

 

I don't buy it, I think it's an act, & I can say that because I know her, I know myself now, & I myself have put on acts such as these in the past . . . oh, I'm in control & happy with how I'm living, but actually I'm a sobbing mess inside, empty & unfulfilled & thinking 'maybe I should move,' 'maybe I should change careers,' when really I am just not happy with who I am inside & I am acting out in my 'relationships' with guys & my 'love'/sex life & making it all terribly even worse.

 

Thanks for sharing Seren, I completely see where you're coming from. What I wonder is if this is mainly a woman thing or if guys who are okay with casual sex/ don't want to get emotionally involved also have issues from their past that make them unable to be truly happy? [i'm speaking in general terms here . . . I'm sure there are some women who are truly happy just hooking up with random guys & not getting emotionally attached . . . I just think that woud be extremely rare, & I know for sure that I'm not one of them & my friend truly isn't either, even though she says she is!]

[26pointblue]

This is the best thing I've read on LS for awhile, and EXACTLY how I would like all women to be able to feel! Strong and self reliant! Yes, you want a man, but you don't NEED a man.

 

So many, even when they claim they don't, need a man. I've seen some say they don't want a R, so they're happy being the OW, but then also brag about how their MM pays their bills. If they need the guy to pay their bills they are put in the position of having to accept being second string.

 

I've always taught my daughter to make sure that no matter what happens she can kick a man to the curb if necessary without facing financial difficulties. I want her to have choices and to be able to freely make them.

 

I never had any issues on the financial part. In fact, I know I have been afraid of relying on a man for my financial well-being, in part because my mom was a SAHM & my dad would hold money over her head & I also saw that she was unhappy with him but had no idea how to make a life for herself on her own. This was my biggest fear about marriage/motherhood & I was determined to always stand on my own two feet.

 

So I kind of went the other way . . . all this education I paid for on my own [my dad also held money over my head & I didn't want him to have any power over me in that way], this high-powered career I went into . . . & for a long time I wasn't happy because I wasn't doing it for me, for the joy of it, but because I was rebelling against my past & living out of fear.

 

The good thing is that I have never had to rely on a man, my dad or boyfriend etc. ha ha, to pay a penny for me, but the bad thing is that it sometimes works in reverse & I get guys who think I'm gonna be their sugar momma! No way jose!!! I worked hard for what I have, & made myself unhappy for quite awhile because of it, & there's no way I'm supporting anyone I don't give birth to!!! But I haven't always had this attitude . . . in the past I've been too nice, too giving, too doormaty, & have allowed guys to take advantage of me, unintentionally or intentionally.

 

At this point in my life I've had a startling revelation where I think, you know what, it wouldn't be too horrible to be with a man who makes equal or more money than I do . . . it's not a bad thing to share finances or 'rely' on a man who I love & trust . . . it would be nice to have a break & if I had kids to spend some time with them instead of the go, go, go of my career. I don't know, I can't imagine giving it up, but some more balance would be nice [plus, I have money saved, not to mention my degrees & experience, so I would never be completely reliant or up a creek if things went bad . . . far from it] & I've finally realized it's okay to rely in some ways, or sometimes, on someone you build a life with, because it's give & take. I am tired of dating deadbeats & I am holding out for someone who holds his own! It will be nice to be with a 'provider' even if I don't need provided for, & it will be nice to find someone with the same work ethic & ambition & drive that I have instead of settling for guys who want to sit around & take advantage of what I've earned.

 

As far as wanting but not needing a man goes, yes, that's exactly where I'm at. But it has taken me way too long to get here. I was insecure & needy & wanted any guy to like me, I was offended if they didn't. Now I look around & see all the fish swimming by & think, bu-bye, guy who wants to keep me on a string . . . bu-bye, guy who has no time for me . . . bu-bye, guy who made a rude comment . . . if anything I am too picky now but after years of being not picky enough, I think that's just fine. I am one of those silly girls who had to read He's Just Not That Into You & such to really get the message. I don't know why it took me so long to figure out that what's most important is that I love myself & am happy on my own, & if a guy is worth my time, he'll show me, & if not, I can do way better.

[donnamaybe]

My guy and I share the bills. He pays half the mortgage but 1/3 of the rest of the bills because my son lives with us, so it's only fair that I pay for him. As a result, I've been able to give my son more financially. If we broke up tomorrow, though, I could still make it on my own. I refuse to ever be stuck in a situation because of money. But we get along really well, and even if we have a disagreement or misunderstanding, we always talk it out. He is actually one guy who wants good things for the rest of the people in the household - not just himself. What a refreshing change from the rest of the jackasses I've known.

[fascinated]

I'm never having sex again.

 

lol, me either. At least not with a partner!