Can infidelity EVER be justified?

[David Cain]

Bored at work. I finished my work load a couple of hours early. This fills up some spare time. I don't gain anything.

 

But you didn't give me a very detailed answer to my questions.

 

I did.

 

Why do keep on talking to the posters here?

 

Because I can.

 

What do you want them to say?

 

I'm not demanding anything.

 

Since Gentlegirl had the strength to share her story, why don't you do the same?

 

Why?

 

You know, my husband had an affair too, so I'm not completely ignorant on this subject. I know how much it can hurt.

 

Patience...let's see where this goes.

 

Weren't you an OW?

[Waffles]

Why?

Is it going to hurt? Your wife cheated on you correct?

 

Weren't you an OW?

I was.

 

I'm also a BS. My husband had a 9 month affair.

 

So the 4th persona stands as of today, and the message stays the same.

Seems so.

 

I'm off.

[Gentlegirl]

He also told the prostitute to go forth and sin no more. He is loving toward all (we are more than blessed), but that does not give us a license to do it until we get sick of it and not expect any consequences. I don't know you situation or who you are talking about, but what I bolded is often not fully quoted. There is another portion to that scripture. You know...context and all.

 

Yes I do know Bent. Thank you anyway,

 

Gentlegirl

[David Cain]

Is it going to hurt? Your wife cheated on you correct?

 

That is not the point of this discussion.

 

I was.

 

I'm also a BS. My husband had a 9 month affair.

 

Seems so.

 

I'm off.

 

Likewise.

 

.............

[fooled once]

I actually read the article about Glen Campbell too; it was in People magazine.

 

Another example of a woman standing by her spouse when he was diagnosed and lived with Alzheimers was Nancy Regan. She stood by her H and supported him while his health and mind declined. The love they share was wonderful.

 

I also watched my grandmother stand by my grandfather. It was hard and it was exhausting, but she refused to have him put in a home as she wanted to care for him like he cared for her. She was faithful to him. My best friends dad has the disease and he is in a home. Unfortunately, he couldn't be cared for at home and his wife visited him as often as she could and she was faithful to him.

 

No 2 people will react the same way when faced with ailing health of a spouse. I am glad my H has stood by me and supported me through my health issues and physical limitations. I also know if he were to become incapacitated tomorrow, I wouldn't leave his side. I wouldn't turn to another man to comfort me. I can't image the sorrow of watching a loved one vanish before our eyes; but I know for me, I wouldn't want to be with anyone but him .... no matter my personal 'needs'. They have BOB's for that

[Silly_Girl]

For me we can say what we think will happen but until faced with that awful prospect, living it day in, day out... it's just speculation again.

[Gentlegirl]

For me we can say what we think will happen but until faced with that awful prospect, living it day in, day out... it's just speculation again.

 

Nobody could predict after 7 years of being carer what the carer's mental capacity to cope would be. What I did is the last thing I would have predicted for myself. I know I was running away from my reality and couldn't face it.

 

Unfotunately my late husband was unable to be cared for at home until he died. His needed specialised nursing 24/7. A secure dementia unit is a horrific place to have to leave somebody you love.

 

Best wishes from Gentlegirl

[eleanor01]

Hi. This is my first post to this forum. I am the other woman in a situation much like gentlegirl's. My lover and I are both in our early fifties. His wife is terminally ill and he has been her caregiver for four years. His whole life revolves around taking care of her and their children. Fortunately, he has a job that allows him to come and go to accomodate whatever is going on with her. He loves her very much, but he is sad and very lonely. I don't think that I could respect him if he didn't take such good care of his wife and kids.

 

This leads me to a question (forgive me if this has been addressed in this topic--there have been a lot of posts and I may have missed it): who cares for the caregiver? In his case, the answer is that it used be nobody. Where's he supposed to go for comfort? Who gives him a backrub when he's sore from lifting her? The sex is great, but I'm pretty sure that it's the cuddling that he treasures more. That, and also to have somebody hold him while he cries. He has said that since he and I have been seeing each other, he is far less irritable (which he doesn't show to anyone--he just keeps it inside) and far more patient with his kids.

 

We live in a very small town and many people have noticed that he has grown sadder and sadder, in spite of being incredibly stoic. For me, I've been happily single for a long time. We are in love--and yes, I do believe that you can love two people at the same time. He and I have each told two very trusted friends about our relationship and all four expressed great happiness for us both.

 

We don't really talk much about what might happen after she dies. I can't wish for that. For now, we will take our stolen hours here and there to be together when a hospice nurse is taking care of his wife.

 

I really believe that I am helping him to cope, although of course I can't be nearly as supportive as I'd like to be. So, condemn me as a whore if you must, but given his situation, how could anybody judge him? Why would you deny this man the small amount of comfort that I can provide him?

 

gentlegirl, I hope that you stay strong. I don't think that you have anything to be ashamed of.

 

Best,

Ellie

[Gentlegirl]

Hi. This is my first post to this forum. I am the other woman in a situation much like gentlegirl's. My lover and I are both in our early fifties. His wife is terminally ill and he has been her caregiver for four years. His whole life revolves around taking care of her and their children. Fortunately, he has a job that allows him to come and go to accomodate whatever is going on with her. He loves her very much, but he is sad and very lonely. I don't think that I could respect him if he didn't take such good care of his wife and kids.

 

This leads me to a question (forgive me if this has been addressed in this topic--there have been a lot of posts and I may have missed it): who cares for the caregiver? In his case, the answer is that it used be nobody. Where's he supposed to go for comfort? Who gives him a backrub when he's sore from lifting her? The sex is great, but I'm pretty sure that it's the cuddling that he treasures more. That, and also to have somebody hold him while he cries. He has said that since he and I have been seeing each other, he is far less irritable (which he doesn't show to anyone--he just keeps it inside) and far more patient with his kids.

 

We live in a very small town and many people have noticed that he has grown sadder and sadder, in spite of being incredibly stoic. For me, I've been happily single for a long time. We are in love--and yes, I do believe that you can love two people at the same time. He and I have each told two very trusted friends about our relationship and all four expressed great happiness for us both.

 

We don't really talk much about what might happen after she dies. I can't wish for that. For now, we will take our stolen hours here and there to be together when a hospice nurse is taking care of his wife.

 

I really believe that I am helping him to cope, although of course I can't be nearly as supportive as I'd like to be. So, condemn me as a whore if you must, but given his situation, how could anybody judge him? Why would you deny this man the small amount of comfort that I can provide him?

 

gentlegirl, I hope that you stay strong. I don't think that you have anything to be ashamed of.

 

Best,

Ellie

 

Thanks Ellie,

 

somebody will come along and have a shot at you for sure. I can almost predict who it will be.... won't be me sweetie.

 

Have a good day,

 

Gentlegirl

[eleanor01]

Hi, gentlegirl--

 

Yes, I imagine I'll get flamed.

 

Ellie

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Justifiable to the betrayed spouses/families? The people whose life is negatively impacted by the betrayal.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

What if nobody's life is negatively impacted by the betrayal?

 

Many As are never discovered, and the lives of spouses and families are completely untouched by the A. By that logic, those As would thus be justifiable.

 

Whether discovered or not, it does effect there lives negatively. That's like proposing that diagnosed diseases will not effect someone's health.

[eleanor01]

What if nobody's life is negatively impacted by the betrayal?

 

Many As are never discovered, and the lives of spouses and families are completely untouched by the A. By that logic, those As would thus be justifiable.

 

In my case, my MM's spouse won't ever find out, and sadly, might not have her wits about her enough to understand even if somebody was cruel enough to tell her (should we get found out, which we are very careful to avoid happening). His kids don't know, either. So, he lies to his secretary and the hospice nurse. Neither are likely to get hurt.

 

Ellie

[bentnotbroken]

Whether discovered or not, it does effect there lives negatively. That's like proposing that diagnosed diseases will not effect someone's health.

 

 

Some people will always believe that just because a person does not realize they are being abused, they are negatively impacted. I think maybe it is how they may have dealt with some from of abuse. They aren't quite sure if the abuse happened but they know something wasn't quite right about the situation. I am not one of those who believes things done in the dark will stay there. May take years, may happen after death, but it always comes out and it leaves those effected with unanswered questions and no way to get them answered.

[bentnotbroken]

In my case, my MM's spouse won't ever find out, and sadly, might not have her wits about her enough to understand even if somebody was cruel enough to tell her (should we get found out, which we are very careful to avoid happening). His kids don't know, either. So, he lies to his secretary and the hospice nurse. Neither are likely to get hurt.

 

Ellie

 

 

That's what you think now...his kids aren't dumb.

[skywriter]

eleanor01,

 

Thank you for sharing your situation. Given your lovers situation it should be understood. If his children are on up in age , and they should find out of their father meeting someone to care for him,surely they would want him to be happy.

[KathyM]

In my case, my MM's spouse won't ever find out, and sadly, might not have her wits about her enough to understand even if somebody was cruel enough to tell her (should we get found out, which we are very careful to avoid happening). His kids don't know, either. So, he lies to his secretary and the hospice nurse. Neither are likely to get hurt.

 

Ellie

His kids would be very hurt if they found out their father was unfaithful while his wife lay dieing in a nursing home. You said you live in a small town. It's entirely possible the kids could find out. Affairs negatively affect the whole family, not just the spouse.

[jthorne]

In my case, my MM's spouse won't ever find out, and sadly, might not have her wits about her enough to understand even if somebody was cruel enough to tell her (should we get found out, which we are very careful to avoid happening). His kids don't know, either. So, he lies to his secretary and the hospice nurse. Neither are likely to get hurt.

 

Ellie

You've contradicted yourself here. If she won't be negatively impacted, then why not be open about it? You can't because disclosure would cause negative impact.

 

The potential of negative impact negates justifiability, IMO. And there isn't one instance of infidelity where there is not the potential of negative impact to someone- otherwise, it'd be an open relationship with no infidelity implied.

[jthorne]

eleanor01,

 

Thank you for sharing your situation. Given your lovers situation it should be understood. If his children are on up in age , and they should find out of their father meeting someone to care for him,surely they would want him to be happy.

I'd hazzard a guess that they would want him to be discreet (if they approved), but they probably wouldn't want him to be sneaking around either.

 

And there lies the crux of it- if the infidelity is justified, why hide it?

[skywriter]

eleanor01,

 

If you don't mind me asking, how old are his children?

[woinlove]

In my case, my MM's spouse won't ever find out, and sadly, might not have her wits about her enough to understand even if somebody was cruel enough to tell her (should we get found out, which we are very careful to avoid happening). His kids don't know, either. So, he lies to his secretary and the hospice nurse. Neither are likely to get hurt.

 

Ellie

 

You say his whole life revolves around taking care of his wife and his children, and yet none of these people know he is spending time with you? How does he manage that? Are his children living separate from him, yet he still is responsible for their care?

 

I do think people should embrace the life they are living and try to live as honestly and authetically as possible. If his R with you is honorable and justified, he should not hide it and deceive those close to him about it. If it is as you describe - that he needs you to care for his family better - then those who love him will understand. Why then the lying and deception? There are some public examples of loving families accepting new romantic attachments because of the extreme circumstances they found themselves in. Sandra Day O'Conner accepted her husband's new attachment and was happy he found some happiness and comfort in such a sad situation.

 

When your actions are guided by love and compassion and goodwill towards others, people can recognize that and there is nothing to hide. I wonder if the MM feels his actions are not so honorable and that is why he hides them. What do you think?

[eleanor01]

His kids would be very hurt if they found out their father was unfaithful while his wife lay dieing in a nursing home. You said you live in a small town. It's entirely possible the kids could find out. Affairs negatively affect the whole family, not just the spouse.

 

She is not in a nursing home, although I don't know that it would make much difference. She is at home, receiving in-home hospice care, but that isn't full time. He is her primary caregiver.

 

BBO7:

So he is just another liar?? You said it......

 

Don't be shocked if that character defect (lying) is extended to you.

 

Well, I don't see it happening, but I understand your point.

 

BB07:

Also....you seem to think just because (you think) that no one knows about it that what you are doing is not harmful. That is an illusion.

 

If we keep our secret and I am able to provide him with comfort, which in turn helps him to be more patient around his family, who is harmed? If you are of the opinion that this issue is black and white, all right or all wrong, then being able to see that there actually might be some benefit, even to his family, might not be possible.

 

BB07:

BTW, this story sound familiar, are you sure you didn't post here several months ago under a different name asking for advice before you got into the affair?

 

Yes, I am sure that wasn't me.

 

skywriter:

If you don't mind me asking, how old are his children?

 

His children are teenagers. He spends a lot of time driving them to activities, going to school plays, etc. He's very involved with his kids.

 

If WishesWereHorses

Whether discovered or not, it does effect there lives negatively. That's like proposing that diagnosed diseases will not effect someone's health.

 

Two points here, and both have to do with your argument.

1) You assume that an undiscovered affair will necessarily affect his children's lives negatively. I disagree. What if the comfort he gets from me helps him to be a better father? Please, remember that he is not only his wife's caregiver, but he's also trying to raise three kids and comfort them and help them cope. Caregiver burnout happens all the time.

2) Your second sentence contains a false analogy. An affair is not a disease. He's not an habitual cheater. And our affair is not really about the sex so much as it is about comfort and companionship.

 

I think that if somebody's view is that all affairs are bad/evil, then again, you are back into the black versus white realm. If those are your beliefs, you certainly have a right to your opinion. I disagree with your assessment, however.

 

jthorne:

You've contradicted yourself here. If she won't be negatively impacted, then why not be open about it? You can't because disclosure would cause negative impact.

 

The potential of negative impact negates justifiability, IMO. And there isn't one instance of infidelity where there is not the potential of negative impact to someone- otherwise, it'd be an open relationship with no infidelity implied.

 

The reason not to be open about it is because so many people just wouldn't understand. And those people, and their judgments, could be very damaging. We live in a very small town in the South. And there are a number of closeted gays here. They don't come out because they don't want to "shame" their families. People can be very closeminded and that can be damaging.

 

Best,

Ellie

[eleanor01]

You say his whole life revolves around taking care of his wife and his children, and yet none of these people know he is spending time with you? How does he manage that? Are his children living separate from him, yet he still is responsible for their care?

 

Correct. He manages it because we only see each other alone when he takes and hour or two off of work. That is when a hospice person is at his house and his kids are doing other things (school, spending the day at the quarry, etc.). Otherwise, it's mostly email.

 

I do think people should embrace the life they are living and try to live as honestly and authetically as possible. If his R with you is honorable and justified, he should not hide it and deceive those close to him about it. If it is as you describe - that he needs you to care for his family better - then those who love him will understand. Why then the lying and deception? There are some public examples of loving families accepting new romantic attachments because of the extreme circumstances they found themselves in. Sandra Day O'Conner accepted her husband's new attachment and was happy he found some happiness and comfort in such a sad situation. When your actions are guided by love and compassion and goodwill towards others, people can recognize that and there is nothing to hide.

 

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to move beyond being judgmental. That is the reason for the deception.

 

I wonder if the MM feels his actions are not so honorable and that is why he hides them. What do you think?

 

This is an excellent question--and BTW, I really appreciate the thought and consideration that you put into your post. I think that he is relieved and grateful to have someone to hug and to talk to and to support him. I don't think that he thinks that he's being dishonorable, but we've never talked about it in quite that way before, so I can't be totally sure.

 

Best,

Ellie

[woinlove]

 

jthorne:

 

 

The reason not to be open about it is because so many people just wouldn't understand. And those people, and their judgments, could be very damaging. We live in a very small town in the South. And there are a number of closeted gays here. They don't come out because they don't want to "shame" their families. People can be very closeminded and that can be damaging.

 

Best,

Ellie

 

Bigotry against gays is real and deplorable. If a gay has a bigoted family, that is tragic. But what is you analogy? You're not implying that MM's family are bigots and he can't be open and honest with them are you? When families openly accept new loved ones into their fold, it really doesn't matter what others think. Sandra Day O'Conner spoke out publicly. What is MM really afraid of? His family or others? My guess would be himself and how he feels about what he is doing. If he was confident of the honor of his actions, I don't think he would be afraid of sharing an important part of his life with them. Or do you think he sees it differently?

[eleanor01]

Bigotry against gays is real and deplorable. If a gay has a bigoted family, that is tragic. But what is you analogy? You're not implying that MM's family are bigots and he can't be open and honest with them are you? When families openly accept new loved ones into their fold, it really doesn't matter what others think. Sandra Day O'Conner spoke out publicly. What is MM really afraid of? His family or others? My guess would be himself and how he feels about what he is doing. If he was confident of the honor of his actions, I don't think he would be afraid of sharing an important part of his life with them. Or do you think he sees it differently?

 

My analogy lies in the similar condemnation of both homosexuality and extramarital affairs. I am implying that the people who live in our town are bigots and holier-than-thou. While his kids might be happy for him, they'd still suffer the backlash from the judgment of people around here.

 

If he was confident of the honor of his actions, I don't think he would be afraid of sharing an important part of his life with them. Or do you think he sees it differently?

 

I think that he does see it differently, and I do, too. You are assuming that people are reasonable and will accept that something that falls outside of the social norm might actually be okay. We are both realistic about how other people would react.

 

Please, this man deserves compassion.

 

Best,

Ellie