Tenacity Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 What's almost unbelievable is that you have a spouse you're supposed to love and take care of through sickness and health, and here they are dying and you're having an affair, without a care in the world about them. Now that's callous. That's just so wrong. Where did she say she didn't have a care in the world about him? She said she spent years attending to him. Do you know anything about that disease? People are not aware of others. They don't recognize family members. How DARE you say she had "no care in the world about him"? If I were her I would be beyond furious. You are completely out of line, in something you know NOTHING about.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 OMG. This is unreal. This is beyond unbelievable. Are you even human, Harris? Did you read her post? Did you walk a mile in her shoes? Glad it's not just me Ten. This is 1 of those times it's a good thing I can't climb thru the screne. It is a good example of how 1 can be jaded by certain experience(s). If I came here and said I didn't like a tone of voice my H took today, many would conclude, he's a cheater. He's not. I stand by my belief that there are cases where a party is widowed before a physical death occurs. It may even be worse, who can say, than knowing in a month or an hour. Who knows what should be expected of a person when a spouse is legally alive, but in no other way a person that the loved ones knew. It's very unfair to judge someone who has faced such tragity.
Tenacity Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Glad it's not just me Ten. This is 1 of those times it's a good thing I can't climb thru the screne. It is a good example of how 1 can be jaded by certain experience(s). If I came here and said I didn't like a tone of voice my H took today, many would conclude, he's a cheater. He's not. I stand by my belief that there are cases where a party is widowed before a physical death occurs. It may even be worse, who can say, than knowing in a month or an hour. Who knows what should be expected of a person when a spouse is legally alive, but in no other way a person that the loved ones knew. It's very unfair to judge someone who has faced such tragity. Thank you. I can't believe ANYONE would dare to judge someone who has been through that hell. I would not.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I'm not surprised you're okay with hurting someone even more who's sick and dying in their bed. I'm sure if this was said in front of an audience there would be a major uproar, justifiably. Where do you come up with this crap? I'm not ok with hurting anyone. You don't know the deathbeds I've sat beside giving all the comfort possible. This man was not hurting over his W's actions. He wasn't aware of himself at this point. You obviously know nothing of the disease.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 What's almost unbelievable is that you have a spouse you're supposed to love and take care of through sickness and health, and here they are dying and you're having an affair, without a care in the world about them. Now that's callous. That's just so wrong. She had already been thru it 10 yrs. That could have gone on for another 10, just so happened it was 6 months more but she couldn't have known that. Would you expect someone in your life to stop all other living functions themselves for even 10 yrs? possibly for the rest of their lives while you weren't really in a living state yourself? If so, I question you will ever have the kind of love you would consider ideal. It sounds a bit selfish to me. If I could no longer be a W to my H due such circumstances, you bet I'd hope he found happiness and companionship.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Thank you. I can't believe ANYONE would dare to judge someone who has been through that hell. I would not. I hope Gentlegirl will not be run off by this ignorance. I think her loyalty was amazing. She didn't deserve this kind of response by any stretch. Sending good thoughts to you and GG
wheelwright Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Has nobody read Lady Chatterley's Lover?!! This conversation went on in social circles and subsequently law courts in the UK from the 30s until its eventual publication in the 60s. Anyone who is anti infidelity whatever the circumstances should read this book by DH Lawrence. Anyone who has experienced something positive from an A has already lived the story, but might like it anyway. In the book, the injured H eventually gives his young and vibrant wife permission to live a sexual life fully outside of the M. All hell broke loose, and the book was banned more for this than its rather graphic (in those days) portrayals of sex. The reason for all the fuss was really that if you can allow and accept a possible beauty in infidelity even in these understandable circumstances, well where to draw the line?
Mutant Debutante Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Do you know of, or can you portray a scenario where in marriage infidelity may be justifiable? Justifiable? Idk...I do know that I was glad when my mom cheated on my abusive drunk first stepfather with the man who later became my stepdad and the only real father figure I ever had. She probably should have sorted it all out differently but she was a mess and honestly the woman just wasn't wired that way. And it probably would have been better for him if my stepdad had run the other way but he didn't and me and my sisters are lucky for it...well, my youngest sister would never have been born, he was her real dad. Later he looked the other way when our mom started cheating on HIM, because he wanted to take care of 'his girls,' ALL of us. He had his problems too but he was good to us, tried to protect us, and it was horrible when he died. Anyway the woman with the husband with Alzheimers, I wouldn't even call that cheating. If I had Alzheimers and I was just mentally gone, if I could wake up for one day and have my mind back, and I found out that my SO had taken care of me by themselves for ten years and then they found a little something that made them happy, I would WANT them to have that. To help them when I died all the way.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Has nobody read Lady Chatterley's Lover?!! This conversation went on in social circles and subsequently law courts in the UK from the 30s until its eventual publication in the 60s. Anyone who is anti infidelity whatever the circumstances should read this book by DH Lawrence. Anyone who has experienced something positive from an A has already lived the story, but might like it anyway. In the book, the injured H eventually gives his young and vibrant wife permission to live a sexual life fully outside of the M. All hell broke loose, and the book was banned more for this than its rather graphic (in those days) portrayals of sex. The reason for all the fuss was really that if you can allow and accept a possible beauty in infidelity even in these understandable circumstances, well where to draw the line? I haven't read it but am vaguely familiar. It's not a fair comparison IMO as, GG's H had lost comprehension of the whole world and for 10 yrs b4 she did anything for herself in the R department. Granted, a MM wasn't the ideal choice but she has owned that. The strongest line would be when both partners are aware of a comittment and are living a life believing it exists. If 1 is deliberately decieving the other, letting the decieved believe in the comittment, the line has been stomped.
bentnotbroken Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Has nobody read Lady Chatterley's Lover?!! This conversation went on in social circles and subsequently law courts in the UK from the 30s until its eventual publication in the 60s. Anyone who is anti infidelity whatever the circumstances should read this book by DH Lawrence. Anyone who has experienced something positive from an A has already lived the story, but might like it anyway. In the book, the injured H eventually gives his young and vibrant wife permission to live a sexual life fully outside of the M. All hell broke loose, and the book was banned more for this than its rather graphic (in those days) portrayals of sex. The reason for all the fuss was really that if you can allow and accept a possible beauty in infidelity even in these understandable circumstances, well where to draw the line? Yes, along with the Canterbury Tales, Paradise Lost and The Grapes of Wrath. We all read fiction from time to time.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I read enough to evaluate the situation and I'm sure you know no more than what I already know, it's just that you're trying to justify cheating on a sick man who's dying. Someone who's supposed to be your spouse. Nobody asked her to stay in that marriage without sex for so long. He did not deserve to be treated that way and her affair is far from justified. Noone had to ask her to. She did it out of the love for the life they once had. He wasn't treated badly because she began to live again. He never experienced a moments thought or felling of betrayal. Again, you obviously don't know this disease at all.
carhill Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I noted Gentlegirl did not justify her A, rather shared her story. 'Met xMM and fell into the A. It just happened at a time in my life when I was trying to cope with being alone in every possible way and taking care of my husband's needs.' Reflecting upon that, she adds: "People can act out of character in extreme cirumstances. In my case it was something I had never done before and never will again. I am now 64, the affair is behind me after much pain and I am dating a SINGLE man" Does that single man need to be worried about her justifying future infidelities? I'm single now, have walked in her shoes (as a caregiver) and would have no worries about dating her. One perspective.
alexandria35 Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Ok guys: My personal experience. Dearly loved husband was 75 and had Alzheimer's disease for 10 years. I was 60 and cared for him at home until 6 months before he died. No sex life for 10 years, no husband for 10 years ( since I was 50). As a person I had lost him to the disease many years ago. I had to put him into full time care after he had a fall and broke his hip.... I was visitng the nursing home every day after work. Met xMM and fell into the A. It just happened at a time in my life when I was trying to cope with being alone in every possible way and taking care of my husband's needs. In some ways it helped me through my husband's last months until he passed away. At the end the A got very intense and turned into a mess as they tend to do. People can act out of character in extreme cirumstances. In my case it was something I had never done before and never will again. I am now 64, the affair is behind me after much pain and I am dating a SINGLE man , Gentlegirl Well several years ago I was having a conversation with my ex about this very thing. He was extremely anti-affair and anti-cheating. I am too, but in this particular conversation I was playing devils advocate for the cheater and creating hypothetical scenarios where I thought it might be understandable. First of all I mentioned the physically unable to have sex scenario. His response was much like the others here. He said then the couple needs to talk about it and figure out ways to stay sexually connected even if there cannot be actual intercourse. Then I brought up the mentally incompacitated theory. I said what if the spouse is brain damaged, or has alzheimers and they are no longer capable of understanding their partners needs? and what if there is no way that they are ever going to know that their partner is cheating and they wouldn't fully comprehend it even if they did know? What then? He said then that is not a real marriage and the healthy spouse needs to divorce the ill one. Well I was aghast at that response! I said but what if the healthy spouse truly loves the ill spouse and doesn't want to abandon that person just because they are sick? What if the healthy spouse really wants to take care of their sick spouse and be there for them in their time of need. I loved his response to this even though his answer sounded a little far fetched. He said who says you couldn't still be there for the sick spouse and still take care of them after the divorce? Heck, you could even still live with the sick spouse full time and take care of them 24/7, but get a divorce so that you are not dishonoring your marriage or the spouse when you are getting some loving on the side. A marriage is partnership and a commitment to fidelity so if you feel that the your spouse is no longer your partner and you can no longer honor your commitment then treat the marriage with dignity and properly end it. You can still be a loving caregiver even if you are no longer legally married to each other. I loved that answer! It sounded so honorable and right. At the same time I can see how it might be incredibly difficult to divorce a spouse who is sick or mentally checked out. First of all it would be very hard for other people too understand it. Most would probably doubt your commitment to love and care for your spouse once you tell them that you are going to get divorced. They would probably see that as the first step to abandoning a spouse in their time of need, so the healthy spouse would probably take a lot of heat for seeking a divorce, at least initially.
Gentlegirl Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 HI Everyone, I'm not furious with the ignoramus who got so idignant about my post. That's the risk you take by posting personal expereiences. There will always be ONE holier than thou loud mouth. I might have reacted that way myself when I was younger. Some people just tend to make blanket jugements. It's a sign of immaturity and lack of experience with life. The universe might very well fill in the gap in his experience one day. "No man is so good as to be free from all evil, not so bad to be worth nothing at all. " Gentlegirl
Mutant Debutante Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I read enough to evaluate the situation and I'm sure you know no more than what I already know, it's just that you're trying to justify cheating on a sick man who's dying. Someone who's supposed to be your spouse. Nobody asked her to stay in that marriage without sex for so long. He did not deserve to be treated that way and her affair is far from justified. Dude, have you ever heard of Alzheimer's before?
Mutant Debutante Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Well several years ago I was having a conversation with my ex about this very thing. He was extremely anti-affair and anti-cheating. I am too, but in this particular conversation I was playing devils advocate for the cheater and creating hypothetical scenarios where I thought it might be understandable. First of all I mentioned the physically unable to have sex scenario. His response was much like the others here. He said then the couple needs to talk about it and figure out ways to stay sexually connected even if there cannot be actual intercourse. Then I brought up the mentally incompacitated theory. I said what if the spouse is brain damaged, or has alzheimers and they are no longer capable of understanding their partners needs? and what if there is no way that they are ever going to know that their partner is cheating and they wouldn't fully comprehend it even if they did know? What then? He said then that is not a real marriage and the healthy spouse needs to divorce the ill one. Well I was aghast at that response! I said but what if the healthy spouse truly loves the ill spouse and doesn't want to abandon that person just because they are sick? What if the healthy spouse really wants to take care of their sick spouse and be there for them in their time of need. I loved his response to this even though his answer sounded a little far fetched. He said who says you couldn't still be there for the sick spouse and still take care of them after the divorce? Heck, you could even still live with the sick spouse full time and take care of them 24/7, but get a divorce so that you are not dishonoring your marriage or the spouse when you are getting some loving on the side. A marriage is partnership and a commitment to fidelity so if you feel that the your spouse is no longer your partner and you can no longer honor your commitment then treat the marriage with dignity and properly end it. You can still be a loving caregiver even if you are no longer legally married to each other. I loved that answer! It sounded so honorable and right. At the same time I can see how it might be incredibly difficult to divorce a spouse who is sick or mentally checked out. First of all it would be very hard for other people too understand it. Most would probably doubt your commitment to love and care for your spouse once you tell them that you are going to get divorced. They would probably see that as the first step to abandoning a spouse in their time of need, so the healthy spouse would probably take a lot of heat for seeking a divorce, at least initially. It's a cool idea in theory but can you imagine taking care of your husband with Alzheimers for ten years and going through the big stress and financial problems of a divorce on top of that? And then what if she doesn't have the money to take care of him, after they're divorced they won't have joint funds anymore and he can't pay for things himself if he's not mentally competent. Who gets power of attorney, if she divorces him? Does he end up in a cheap old folks home getting his diaper changed by strangers, terrified because he doesn't know where he is? Yeah, I worked in an Alzheimer's clinic for 2 years and I've seen it.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Where do you? I know about sitting next to a deathbed and millions of others do. I sat next to my own cousin on his deathbed and it's nothing unique. That's not unique?!?! Ok, if that's your everyday go for pizza after... I'm forever affected by being next to lovedones on deathbeds. It doesn't matter what the circumstance was. There was somebody who was dying and one can't even have the decency respect their own spouse on their bed! Instead they chose to tarnish their vows and then have the gall to walk in on them, looking down on them. How degrading is that. And here you are saying it's okay to do it simply because he was lying down. Didn't say that at all. You are ignorant to this disease if you think he was simply llying down. I guess it's completely justified to have an affair if your spouse is laying down in a medical building. Heartless. You just don't know what you are talking about plain and simple. You are starting to sound very simple.
OldOnTheInside Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Has nobody read Lady Chatterley's Lover?!!I rather prefer Wuthering Heights and Gone with the Wind. The thing is...GG's past situation is definitely one of the more morally complex ones you'll find here. From an ethical standpoint, there is a world of difference between somebody that is mentally dead, and physically dead. IMO her situation is one of the very few solid examples of grey morality. "People can act out of character in extreme cirumstances. In my case it was something I had never done before and never will again. I am now 64, the affair is behind me after much pain and I am dating a SINGLE man" Exactly. No arrogance, malice, or defensiveness in her tone.
Mutant Debutante Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 No I haven't. So when one gets a terminal illness I guess it's just a free-for-all. Shame. You're acting like you haven't. Or are you just a troll? Shame.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 No I haven't. So when one gets a terminal illness I guess it's just a free-for-all. Shame. That explains the ignorance then. MHarris propably knows when a widowed person should date as well, if he even believes that's acceptable. What if it was a week sooner than he would consider tramp!
Gentlegirl Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 My husband and I did discuss the possibility of me finding somebody else. He was fully aware and educated about of the progress of this disease in the early stages. He knew how he would end up, not even recognising me or the kids or grandkids. He also undertsood that there was a 14 year age gap between us. I didn't express my inner feelings here about the A, and that's for me to come to terms with. Gentlegirl
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 My husband and I did discuss the possibility of me finding somebody else. He was fully aware and educated about of the progress of this disease in the early stages. He knew how he would end up, not even recognising me or the kids or grandkids. He also undertsood that there was a 14 year age gap between us. I didn't express my inner feelings here about the A, and that's for me to come to terms with. Gentlegirl You did great by your M GG. You've nothing to justify. I am so sorry for what you went thru. You show alot of admirable strength.
Tenacity Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 No I haven't. So when one gets a terminal illness I guess it's just a free-for-all. Shame. Like I said. He admitted he never heard of the disease. Completely ignorant. No clue. He admitted it. Onward.... ! I'm sorry, Gentlegirl.
alexandria35 Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 It's a cool idea in theory but can you imagine taking care of your husband with Alzheimers for ten years and going through the big stress and financial problems of a divorce on top of that? And then what if she doesn't have the money to take care of him, after they're divorced they won't have joint funds anymore and he can't pay for things himself if he's not mentally competent. Who gets power of attorney, if she divorces him? Does he end up in a cheap old folks home getting his diaper changed by strangers, terrified because he doesn't know where he is? Yeah, I worked in an Alzheimer's clinic for 2 years and I've seen it. Oh I agree. It definitely may be more unkind to divorce a spouse in this condition rather than have an affair. I did say it was kind of a far fetched idea.
waytogo Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Dear, Mr. Harris, I'm sorry you have been hurt, and have so little regard for others and the situations they have been in. I wish you'd get over yourself or better yet, just go. Perhaps therapy to get over your hatred. I've read your posts from way back and they are nothing but hate filled bullshi$. You are truly a sad, sad little man. I hope you find peace. That's actually very sweet of you WN. I can't have the same compasion for this person who has been so defected by a W that didn't want him, he'd attack a widow. He now knows GG and her late H's convo's about where this disease would lead. Sitting on a loved one's deathbed was nothing unique to him. Only, a W didn't want him resignates with him. Everyone else from here out to him is great to hurt someone. It's going to take serious theorapy for him to ever see good in the world again. Reason? He only looked for the world to suite him b4 W got it better somewhere else. The minute 1 part of the world didn't suit him, everything else in the world is wrong also.
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