woinlove Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 Elenor, I hadn't seen your latest post when I posted again. I am glad to see that you might think about this. Maybe the circumstances are such that MM, his children and his W would all expect him to be faithful in the emotional, romantic and sexual sense to his wife. If that is the case, he is not living up to his own expectations. Or maybe it is something different.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Two points here, and both have to do with your argument. 1) You assume that an undiscovered affair will necessarily affect his children's lives negatively. I disagree. What if the comfort he gets from me helps him to be a better father? Please, remember that he is not only his wife's caregiver, but he's also trying to raise three kids and comfort them and help them cope. Caregiver burnout happens all the time. 2) Your second sentence contains a false analogy. An affair is not a disease. He's not an habitual cheater. And our affair is not really about the sex so much as it is about comfort and companionship. I think that if somebody's view is that all affairs are bad/evil, then again, you are back into the black versus white realm. If those are your beliefs, you certainly have a right to your opinion. I disagree with your assessment, however. First, I have to say that I have enormous empathy for what your MM is going through. I've dealt with it personally as well as professionally for years. I agree that the comfort provided from your relationship is beneficial to him. I think that stands true in all affairs. The MP is receiving something or they wouldn't be having an affair. Like an undiagnosed disease (spell check got me on that in the initial post) the effects of an undisclosed affair are insidious and do affect the family unit as a whole. I also know this first hand. They also have in common the fact that once diagnosed or disclosed much effort/pain is involved in the grief process/acceptance of the disease/affair as well as treatment/action/recovery. Can you tell me unequivocally that these teens who are loosing their mother will NEVER find out and have to deal with feeling betrayed by their father??? In a small town in the south? Is the patience he gains from your R worth what they will have to deal with should they find out? Yes, I am a believer in black and white/ absolutes. As the progeny of many generations of scientist, engineers and its in my DNA. We all have a need for absolutes in much of our lives, and gray I assume when we need personal justification. I am in no way judging you or him. I think its a horrible situation that any one of us could find ourselves in at any time ( caring for a disabled parent, child, spouse ect...) I know, however, that there is a potential for damage to the teen children. Every person, MP, OP, involved in an affair has a reason or justification for their involvement. I'm not a believer that that makes them right. As an adult in a small southern town, you are risking ridicule yourself. As an adult, its your right to make that choice and accept whatever consequences follow. As a father, he's gambling with his children's emotional wellbeing, at a time that they are particularly vulnerable. I do understand the loneliness that comes with being the sole decision maker, caretaker, person in charge. I'm very sorry for the situation he is in. Edited August 2, 2011 by IfWishesWereHorses
jthorne Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 I guess for some, "in sickness and in health" comes with caveats. If she is terminal, the honerable thing to do for her sake and for the children's sake would be to wait until she has passed before embarking upon a romantic relationship. If he needs support, there are plenty of groups for that.
Mimolicious Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 In reply to the original question, I guess it depends. If you are "married" on papers and live a not so traditional marriage, it's just a legal binding- then yes. I wouldn't use the word "justified" though. If you are "married" playing family, building a life together, sleep in the same bed and do the honky but one forgets to mention that you have a double life and you are declaring your profound love to another person- no. Can't be justified. There is not a onesize fits all answer but I think we can all agree that if someone has a fairly good marriage and yet cheats, how can that be justified? Sometimes too much is not enough. There are people who are not ever satisfied, no matter how good of a thing they have.
bentnotbroken Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 Two points here, and both have to do with your argument. 1) You assume that an undiscovered affair will necessarily affect his children's lives negatively. I disagree. What if the comfort he gets from me helps him to be a better father? Please, remember that he is not only his wife's caregiver, but he's also trying to raise three kids and comfort them and help them cope. Caregiver burnout happens all the time. 2) Your second sentence contains a false analogy. An affair is not a disease. He's not an habitual cheater. And our affair is not really about the sex so much as it is about comfort and companionship. I think that if somebody's view is that all affairs are bad/evil, then again, you are back into the black versus white realm. If those are your beliefs, you certainly have a right to your opinion. I disagree with your assessment, however. First, I have to say that I have enormous empathy for what your MM is going through. I've dealt with it personally as well as professionally for years. I agree that the comfort provided from your relationship is beneficial to him. I think that stands true in all affairs. The MP is receiving something or they wouldn't be having an affair. Like an undiagnosed disease (spell check got me on that in the initial post) the effects of an undisclosed affair are insidious and do affect the family unit as a whole. I also know this first hand. They also have in common the fact that once diagnosed or disclosed much effort/pain is involved in the grief process/acceptance of the disease/affair as well as treatment/action/recovery. Can you tell me unequivocally that these teens who are loosing their mother will NEVER find out and have to deal with feeling betrayed by their father??? In a small town in the south? Is the patience he gains from your R worth what they will have to deal with should they find out? Yes, I am a believer in black and white/ absolutes. As the progeny of many generations of scientist, engineers and its in my DNA. We all have a need for absolutes in much of our lives, and gray I assume when we need personal justification. I am in no way judging you or him. I think its a horrible situation that any one of us could find ourselves in at any time ( caring for a disabled parent, child, spouse ect...) I know, however, that there is a potential for damage to the teen children. Every person, MP, OP, involved in an affair has a reason or justification for their involvement. I'm not a believer that that makes them right. As an adult in a small southern town, you are risking ridicule yourself. As an adult, its your right to make that choice and accept whatever consequences follow. As a father, he's gambling with his children's emotional wellbeing, at a time that they are particularly vulnerable. I do understand the loneliness that comes with being the sole decision maker, caretaker, person in charge. I'm very sorry for the situation he is in. Here! Here!:bunny::bunny:That's it! The well being of child seems to me should include not only thinking of all the possible outcomes, but knowing the determent all those outcomes could potentially have. Teens without facing the death of a parent are in constant flux. To add to the that the possibility of becoming gossip for the locals....well that speaks to more than I need to comment on. I watched my own children and the children of Mr. Messy's affair partner suffer. They believed they would never be discovered. So much for their careful planning and belief that they were safe.
woinlove Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 My analogy lies in the similar condemnation of both homosexuality and extramarital affairs. I am implying that the people who live in our town are bigots and holier-than-thou. While his kids might be happy for him, they'd still suffer the backlash from the judgment of people around here. I think that he does see it differently, and I do, too. You are assuming that people are reasonable and will accept that something that falls outside of the social norm might actually be okay. We are both realistic about how other people would react. Please, this man deserves compassion. Best, Ellie I'm just talking about his family, not about anyone else. If you are accepted by the family, what could anyone else do that would matter? As to compassion, yes this man deserves a lot of compassion. He is dealing with a very difficult and painful situation. However, there can still be things he is doing that are a disservice to himself and to his family. His deception sounds like a substantial disservice. People have all sorts of arrangements, from open marriages to conventional marriages making allowances under extreme conditions to conventional marriages which, by mutual choice, make no allowances under any circumstances. As long as everyone is living authetically and honestly and not living a life of deceit - making their families believe an illusion which is controlled by one individual - any of these lifestyles work and outside influences can be dealt with together as a family. Also, my own observation, is no matter how or why a person is saying they are being deceitful to their family for the benefit of others, from an outside perspective, it looks like it is really benefiting and protecting the deceiver.
jthorne Posted August 2, 2011 Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Sorry about the typo in my previous post, I was rushing to get my parent to get a port flush. So as I sit here waiting for my terminally ill parent, and having experience living in small towns, I have some further perspective. The reason I find this type of A so distasteful is because it ultimately hinges upon the terminally ill BS's demise. It may start innocently as "support" but eventually as in most A's, the AP wants more, and getting more requires the death of the BS. My caregiver parent would never seek that kind of "comfort" because they believe that is disrespectful and they are not willing to put their carnal urges above their spouse. For the sake of argument, if they had an A, I can categorically state that the OP would NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be welcomed into the family. Hell would freeze over twice first. My dad's barber had a terminally ill wife and began an A with her best friend. Leaning on each other that turned to something else, right? It just happens, right? After his wife passed, there the OW was, primed and ready to move in, after a "respectable mouring period" of course:rolleyes:. Little did she know that the WS felt so guilty after the wife's death, that he could barely stand to look at the OW. Along with all the small-town gossip that ensued afterwards, he dropped the OW like a hot potato, and she's now seen as the town whore while he's gone on to marry a "nice" (their word) woman from church. Seems like a double standard, but OW was seen as the vulture that swooped in to take advantage of a man in an emotional state who otherwise would never have given her a second glance had his W not fallen so ill. True story. Not saying it will happen to you, but it happens more than some would like to admit. She is not in a nursing home, although I don't know that it would make much difference. She is at home, receiving in-home hospice care, but that isn't full time. He is her primary caregiver. BBO7: Well, I don't see it happening, but I understand your point. BB07: If we keep our secret and I am able to provide him with comfort, which in turn helps him to be more patient around his family, who is harmed? If you are of the opinion that this issue is black and white, all right or all wrong, then being able to see that there actually might be some benefit, even to his family, might not be possible. BB07: Yes, I am sure that wasn't me. skywriter: His children are teenagers. He spends a lot of time driving them to activities, going to school plays, etc. He's very involved with his kids. If WishesWereHorses Two points here, and both have to do with your argument. 1) You assume that an undiscovered affair will necessarily affect his children's lives negatively. I disagree. What if the comfort he gets from me helps him to be a better father? Please, remember that he is not only his wife's caregiver, but he's also trying to raise three kids and comfort them and help them cope. Caregiver burnout happens all the time. 2) Your second sentence contains a false analogy. An affair is not a disease. He's not an habitual cheater. And our affair is not really about the sex so much as it is about comfort and companionship. I think that if somebody's view is that all affairs are bad/evil, then again, you are back into the black versus white realm. If those are your beliefs, you certainly have a right to your opinion. I disagree with your assessment, however. jthorne: The reason not to be open about it is because so many people just wouldn't understand. And those people, and their judgments, could be very damaging. We live in a very small town in the South. And there are a number of closeted gays here. They don't come out because they don't want to "shame" their families. People can be very closeminded and that can be damaging. Best, Ellie Edited August 2, 2011 by jthorne
KathyM Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Would it be so hard to actually cool it with the guy until after the wife passes away? If she's in hospice, that means she has less than six months to live. Would it be so difficult to back off until after the funeral? That way, the kids would never find out, nor would anyone else. He could still talk to the OP over the phone in private. He could get emotional support from the normal means--parents, relatives, friends, counselors, support groups, clergy. He'll still be there after the wife is gone. Why risk a possible discovery of the affair? And I would also suggest not using a computer to communicate with each other. If the kids happen to come across any love letters or other suspicious material, they would be in for a shock. They don't need that kind of drama right now. They need their dad, and he needs to focus on them and helping them get through this difficult time. This idea that people can't cope with life or death without having an affair is getting kind of ridiculous. There are many other ways to cope. You'll have the rest of your life to be with this guy. I would think people could wait at least a few months to spare the kids and the family the possibility of a scandal.
nyrias Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 It can never be justified. It is a selfish act that betrays the marriage vows and does permanent irreparable damage to the bond that the married couple had. There is no excuse for infidelity. Does one NEED to justify? Just admit to be selfish. Justification .. excuses ... are just words. There are little differences in consequences whether the BS said: a) "i did it because i wasn't happy and i have the right to the pursuit of happiness", or b) "there is no excuse, i take full responsibilities. I am so sorry. I am selfish". It is the actions that count.
nyrias Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Would it be so hard to actually cool it with the guy until after the wife passes away? If she's in hospice, that means she has less than six months to live. Would it be so difficult to back off until after the funeral? That way, the kids would never find out, nor would anyone else. He could still talk to the OP over the phone in private. He could get emotional support from the normal means--parents, relatives, friends, counselors, support groups, clergy. He'll still be there after the wife is gone. Why risk a possible discovery of the affair? And I would also suggest not using a computer to communicate with each other. If the kids happen to come across any love letters or other suspicious material, they would be in for a shock. They don't need that kind of drama right now. They need their dad, and he needs to focus on them and helping them get through this difficult time. This idea that people can't cope with life or death without having an affair is getting kind of ridiculous. There are many other ways to cope. You'll have the rest of your life to be with this guy. I would think people could wait at least a few months to spare the kids and the family the possibility of a scandal. What about it is not 6 months but a week? How about 3 days? Sure there might be a risk. But then, if you are acting on a cost benefit analysis of risk, then the circumstances matter. May be the risk is infinitesimal. There is a risk in driving to work too. Do you not go out of the door because of that? If you can only talking about risk/benefits and consequences, there are scenarios that cheating is better. The ONLY one that it does not is a pure moral/principle based argument.
KathyM Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Does one NEED to justify? Just admit to be selfish. Justification .. excuses ... are just words. There are little differences in consequences whether the BS said: a) "i did it because i wasn't happy and i have the right to the pursuit of happiness", or b) "there is no excuse, i take full responsibilities. I am so sorry. I am selfish". It is the actions that count. Apparently, justifying the affair is how people deal with their guilt. The consequences of those two statements would likely be different in most cases of infidelity. The first statement is arrogant and has an air of entitlement. The second statement takes responsibility for the action and could lead to a reconciliation in some cases. (This doesn't apply to the case given by the OP, since the wife is not in any position to deal with the consequences).
KathyM Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 What about it is not 6 months but a week? How about 3 days? Sure there might be a risk. But then, if you are acting on a cost benefit analysis of risk, then the circumstances matter. May be the risk is infinitesimal. There is a risk in driving to work too. Do you not go out of the door because of that? If you can only talking about risk/benefits and consequences, there are scenarios that cheating is better. The ONLY one that it does not is a pure moral/principle based argument. I take it you like to debate.
rafallus Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Does one NEED to justify? Just admit to be selfish. Justification .. excuses ... are just words. There are little differences in consequences whether the BS said: a) "i did it because i wasn't happy and i have the right to the pursuit of happiness", or b) "there is no excuse, i take full responsibilities. I am so sorry. I am selfish". It is the actions that count.Yet, somehow, some people, desperately feel the need to twist things eristically, so they come clean in their heads after the act. Like, if you really need to feel you didn't do anything wrong in your own head, and hopefully convince others too. That's amusing. And not limited to cheating either.
Severely Unamused Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) Yet, somehow, some people, desperately feel the need to twist things eristically, so they come clean in their heads after the act. Like, if you really need to feel you didn't do anything wrong in your own head, and hopefully convince others too. That's amusing. And not limited to cheating either. Certainly. It is a common coping mechanism to ease one's conscience. And some people are, to put it both bluntly and vaguely, messed up in the head when it comes to the personal responsibility of their actions. It isn't that hard to say that you are acting entirely out of self-preservation is it? At least some people are honest about their b*stardry. Edited August 3, 2011 by Severely Unamused
Gentlegirl Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Yet, somehow, some people, desperately feel the need to twist things eristically, so they come clean in their heads after the act. Like, if you really need to feel you didn't do anything wrong in your own head, and hopefully convince others too. That's amusing. And not limited to cheating either. Can you tell me what "eristically" means please? I haven't heard that term before. Thank you, Gentlegirl
Gentlegirl Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Yet, somehow, some people, desperately feel the need to twist things eristically, so they come clean in their heads after the act. Like, if you really need to feel you didn't do anything wrong in your own head, and hopefully convince others too. That's amusing. And not limited to cheating either. Can you tell me what "eristically" means please? I haven't heard that term before. Thank you, Gentlegirl
rafallus Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Basically, "dispute for the sake of dispute, not focused on the core point".
nyrias Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Apparently, justifying the affair is how people deal with their guilt. The consequences of those two statements would likely be different in most cases of infidelity. The first statement is arrogant and has an air of entitlement. The second statement takes responsibility for the action and could lead to a reconciliation in some cases. (This doesn't apply to the case given by the OP, since the wife is not in any position to deal with the consequences). I wonder if just a statement would make a difference if the follow-up actions are the same. If the WS refuses to go NC, or MC, ... i doubt whatever being said will make a difference. And certainly in cases where the BS or the WS already makes up his/her mind to leave, it makes no difference.
nyrias Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Yet, somehow, some people, desperately feel the need to twist things eristically, so they come clean in their heads after the act. Like, if you really need to feel you didn't do anything wrong in your own head, and hopefully convince others too. That's amusing. And not limited to cheating either. No. Cheating is not that special. There are many vices humans engage in.
rafallus Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 How does it disagree with what I just wrote though? Because you basically reiterated my last sentence.
Severely Unamused Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 How does it disagree with what I just wrote though? Because you basically reiterated my last sentence. Dismissive for the sake of being dismissive.
nyrias Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 How does it disagree with what I just wrote though? Because you basically reiterated my last sentence. I didn't. I was agreeing with you. You don't like agreement?
KathyM Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 I wonder if just a statement would make a difference if the follow-up actions are the same. If the WS refuses to go NC, or MC, ... i doubt whatever being said will make a difference. And certainly in cases where the BS or the WS already makes up his/her mind to leave, it makes no difference. I think an apology helps either way. It acknowledges the wrongdoing. It acknowledges the feelings of the BS, and the regret for hurting her. Whether the man decides to drop the affair or continue it, somehow that acknowledgement of wrongdoing and acknowledgement of the wife's feelings is some token that he still has some feelings for her and recognizes that his actions are wrong. If he were to stop the affair at that point, that statement would go a long way in helping their recovery. A lot of men go into counseling still denying or minimizing the act or its effect on the BS. Even if he were to continue the affair, and decide to leave the marriage, that statement gives the BS a token that has some value. Not much value, mind you, but I think it would help. It puts the blame where it lies, and acknowledges the wrongness of the act and the regret for having hurt the BS.
rafallus Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 I didn't. I was agreeing with you. You don't like agreement? Your use of "no" was admittedly baffling, and suggested that you missed "not" in my last sentence (not so implausible option after all). Also, your second sentence is oddly... venomous, for someone who likes to use logic so much.
nyrias Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 Your use of "no" was admittedly baffling, and suggested that you missed "not" in my last sentence (not so implausible option after all). Also, your second sentence is oddly... venomous, for someone who likes to use logic so much. You said "And not limited to cheating either." and i said "No, cheating is not that special". The "No" is an emphasis of the "not" in my sentence and also consistent with the "not" in yours. And it is totally grammatically consistent. Just like the following example: "Tom is NOT all." Response: "No, he is not tall at all". I don't see a problem.
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