s_palmer Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Okay, here's the case: I'm European and I met this Pakistani girl a while ago; during the time we fell in love and now we decided to do anything possible to get married. She is Muslim; as about me, I think God is one and only one, no matter the name we're addressing Him (please, spare me with religious comments as "blasphemy" and stuff like that; love is a creation of God and He can't be against something so wonderful - I came here for an advice, not for flaming comments). So as I said, for me, embracing Islam wouldn't be any problem; I love God as a Universe and life creator. The problem is her father, most probably wouldn't allow this marriage, because I'm not Pakistani, thus I'm not a part of a cast; my parents are no more so I have nobody to "present" myself in front of her family. EDIT: She lives in Pakistan with her family now. We have been discussing our options, and they are (as far as I know): 1. Presenting the case to her father This could imply a great risk for her; from being grounded, to marry against her will with somebody else or even worst - I'm afraid to even think about "worst"... Anyways, we could try to fight with her family; I am willing to take the risk to be killed for her (this is not a joke) but I'm going crazy thinking that she could be hurt because of this. 2. Eloping She is willing and decided to turn back to her family and her life there and to come to me so we will be able to live together. This might be a way but I rather prefer this not to happen, because she would make such a big sacrifice, not being able to contact her family, to know how are they... it's a very hard decision. Now, even if my question is SO obvious... is there anyone who could give some advice, maybe from own experience? What are the risks for her? What is the best way to approach this? I never asked her to change her religion and I'll never do it; I respect her and her beliefs too much to think about this. Maybe an Islam wise man would have an answer to this? I really need a piece of advice, anything would be welcomed (excepting the hate answers). For the final, we, me and her, are not 16 y.o. kids; she is 21 and I'm 33, we're both grown-ups. Thank you very much for your advices. Palmer. LATER EDIT: We didn't have any physical contact, due to her religions requirements; we always respected that. Edited July 4, 2011 by s_palmer
musemaj11 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 My family is Muslim and my father converted to Islam from Christianity in order to marry my mom. Personally I think religion is a sham and so is converting to a certain religion for marriage.
Author s_palmer Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 My family is Muslim and my father converted to Islam from Christianity in order to marry my mom. Personally I think religion is a sham and so is converting to a certain religion for marriage. Musemaj11, Unfortunately, it is not the religion which is the issue here... otherwise would be much easier. Palmer.
Joe Normal Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I strongly advise against it. A predictor of marital success is the degree of commonality of values and similarities between the couple - in your case it's about as far apart as one can imagine. Doing a false religious conversion, and marrying someone with an implacably hostile family, is pure folly and will set you up for a lifetime of conflict. Her eloping will mean she may never see her family, relatives, and friends again, as well as her homeland - most expats get homesick eventually and want to return. Add in the risk to her reputation, wellbeing, and even life, and it is silly to contemplate. Only a child or a lovesick fool could possibly recommend this. All you have in favour is a temporary hormonal imbalance that clouds rational judgement and sober reflection on the merits of the marriage. My advice is to speak to a couple of trusted long-term friends and/or relatives who have wisdom, and present the question to them. They will probably say similar to me. The only real exception is if you are not just 'in love', but have exceptional personal and physical chemistry, see the world the same way, complete each other's sentences and so on. The fact that she's asking you to convert shows this is not the case. So IMO forget it. But, knowing how humans are, you will go ahead and do it anyway out of emotion, and will then regret it at some point in the future, fall out of love, and get divorced or stuck in an unhappy marriage. Perhaps you'll even come back here asking how to fix things.
Author s_palmer Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Joe, thank you for your answer. The fact that I'm 33 might give you a hint that a "hormonal imbalance" is out of question. Actually, if I wouldn't reasoning, I wouldn't open this topic... She DID NOT ask me to convert to Islam; it is my decision. I'm not considering eloping; that would hurt her and her family and I don't want her neither her family to suffer; not a bit. What am I looking for is a piece of advice about how to approach this issue. Palmer.
alphamale Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 1. Presenting the case to her father good luck with that
alphamale Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Personally I think religion is a sham boy thats the understatement of the decade
Feelsgoodman Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 So you are a European man who wants to marry a woman that lives halfway across the world and comes with all sorts of crazy religious and ethnic baggage? You must be pretty desperate...I mean, how hard could it be to find yourself a normal European woman? How did you meet your Pakistani love, by the way? Please don't tell me you met her on the internet...
Grapefruit86 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Ok since no one here seems to be oh much help or taking this seriously..I'll jump in here. I'm Muslim too, although I'm not Pakistani, but I do have alot of friends from there, so maybe I can help. Frist thing, are you legitimately concerned for her life? I'm sure you know this, but the vast majority of Muslim dads don't kill rebellious daughters. In fact, many come accept such unions. But, honor killings do happen unfortunately, so if this concern is real, than DON'T PROCEED UNTIL SHE IS IN A SECURE PLACE. I can tell you now, if she comes from an abusive family that might harm her, Pakistan is not safe. All that aside, I honestly suggest taking your case to her dad. You already said your totally cool with converting to Islam. If her family is very religious, and religion is the issue her dad has with you, this is surprisingly to your benefit. If you convert, than your ethnicty is a moot issue. As long as you make it clear that your not doing it just for her, you'll be fine. Hell, being a convert....they'll probably love you. I know a Pakistani girl who married a white guy who converted. Her dad loves him. Now, if it's a cultural thing, meaning that it's not so much that your not Muslim as much as your the wrong ethnic group, that makes things much more difficult, especially if she's from a high social cast. I don't really know what to do in that position, but seriously, I'd ask anyway. It'll show her dad that your respectful enough of her and her family (and judging by the fact you had no physical contact, I'm sure you are) to bring them into this. As long as your respectful, they'll have a hard time finding excuses. Yet, some people are just racist no matter what. If this is the case, know that this may hang over your heads for the rest of your lives....are either of you prepared for that? I don't suggest you elope. In any culture...it's waay to hard to turn your back on the family. I don't know you two, so I don't know how serious you are for each other. If you must be togther come hell or high water...than hey..that might be what you have to do...but I think the crushing reality of being so isolated might tear you guys apart. Not to call her immature..but she is kinda young. It's pretty easy at 21 to say you can live without things that years later you realize are indispensable. Anyway, I hope this helps! Good Luck and all the best!
Author s_palmer Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 @Grapefruit86 Thank you so much for your answer, the information you provided is extremely valuable to me and helped me to create a much clearer image. As you know, these "honor killings" are presented in the mass-media today with a thick headline, so they're shocking everyone. Not that the "normal killings " (sounds horrible, I know) aren't shocking but emphasizing the first category brings a lot of audience. I am aware about the fact that, statistically speaking, "honor killings" have a much, much smaller rate than the others but the media have to earn it's cash... Her family isn't an abusive one; in fact, she told me about them as they're joyful and loving parents; they're playing, joking and laughing together and the word "abuse" or "violence" or something similar has never been pronounced. On the other hand, her father is a pretty big guy in the Army there and their social cast is, if not the highest, definitely very high. Speaking of eloping, you're right and this was the first thing I was thinking about: when you realize what you're missing - and the most difficult thing in this case is to miss your family - the suffering is inevitable, even if you're living with the one you love. As I already wrote, my only concern is for her being well and not paying some consequences of my action of telling her father "Sir, I respect and I love your daughter, would you allow her to marry me?" But in the end, you have to fight for what what you love, I guess. There is one more small question though: from what I know - and she already confirmed me this - the most proper way to introduce myself to the family isn't to go with the old "knock, knock / who is it? / me, I want to marry your daughter!" routine ... it might be unhealthy. Instead, I should be presented by someone with a certain position there... maybe an Imam, or something like that? Palmer.
Author s_palmer Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 So you are a European man who wants to marry a woman that lives halfway across the world and comes with all sorts of crazy religious and ethnic baggage? You must be pretty desperate...I mean, how hard could it be to find yourself a normal European woman? How did you meet your Pakistani love, by the way? Please don't tell me you met her on the internet... Dude, you're missing the whole point here, I'm afraid It's not about being "pretty desperate" or "trying-hard-to-get-married-so-my-name-wouldn't-fade" or "I-need-someone-to-wash-my-clothes". It's not about "finding" a woman like you go out to find a nice and cheap car to buy... The fact that she lives "halfway across the world" applies also for me, from her side of the world, isn't it? And "all sorts of crazy religious and ethnic baggage"? Dude, that's a big statement you're making here... remember that everything is reciprocal and something which looks "normal" to us might look pretty "crazy" for them there.
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