snug.bunny Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 And this is usually how I approach going out too, but it's hard not to want to leave when your guys basically ditch you to talk to girls. And then when you try to find a conversation of your own, it turns into "oooh, who's your friend...? :love:" You don't have to ditch them, never ditch your friends! But, you can go off to another part of the place you are at, and sit by yourself. Oops, that doesn't really help. Anyway, that's what I've done. It's led to striking up conversations with other people, not just members of the opposite sex.
Richard Friedman Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 See, for the longest time, I always felt like I was the one who didn't need all that, like you're saying...but after a while being surrounded by guys who are capable of something you apparently aren't, it starts to wear on you and make you doubt yourself...as another poster said earlier, guys (especially Marines) can tend to be uber competitive...even though we don't intend to compete on who can bed the most women, I'm sure subconsciously it's like everything else that becomes a dick measuring contest... That's because you do need it. Saying otherwise is just a rationalization you use to protect your ego. Women are beautiful and every man goes through a phase where he wants to sample whats out there. The men with the options and ability take advantage. Not to say you should dedicate your life to womanizing but getting around a bit will change the way you view women. You'll never need to be needy, insecure or conciliatory when your gf's being a bitch when you have the confidence that you can generate options. There is a reason many women are turned off by the schlubs with little experience and want a manwhore. Those guys truly know how to act with women and the women(maybe subconsciously) know it as well. Your future relationships will thank you for it.
Engadget Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Being a player, to me, is for the dumb. I have a friend who's in the Coast Guard who picks up women all the time, he's not all that smart and he has two kids he won't even acknowledge having. Can't hold down a relationship worth a damn either. I on the other hand went from a six year relationship (while increasing the notches on my bedpost in retaliation for being cheated on) to another one I'm still in. I'd rather it this way.
Afishwithabike Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 If you didn't have these friends, would you still want to do what they're doing (random hookups, ONS, etc.) ?
Woggle Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 I speak as a happily married man but there are a lot of advantages to being a player as long as you are honest. It's better to be a player than some nice guy who wears a kick me sign on his back for women. A relationship is only better if she treats you right.
Stockalone Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 Each Monday I'd hear tales of their conquests, which even included a threesome, and part me would get bitter that stuff like that never happened to me. I even ended a relatively short relationship I had with a girl partially because I was jealous of my friends and wanted to experience all of this and see if I was even able to do what they did every weekend. I never sowed my wild oats, so to speak, and it almost seems like something every guy is supposed to do... So now I'm torn...I kind of want that relationship again...but then again, as bad as it sounds, I kinda want to experience the other side... Guidance...? My experience has been different, so I can't really relate to your torn feelings. Seeing other guys (successfully or unsuccessfully) chase tail, only strengthened my belief that I never wanted to have casual sex. If you actually ended a relationship because of this, then I think that's sad. That said, it sounds like you need to experience it in order to be sure whether or not it's what you want. I don't know why I'd want to be like that...maybe some sort of external validation that I'm actually desirable in that trashy sort of way...? Because when I'm out with friends, especially them, I feel like I can't compete with them...insecurities rule the day... Yea that's true...I guess hearing about these guys (they no sh*t get theirs every weekend...like there's witnesses...in the same hotel room...) gets frustrates me and makes me feel a little inferior... See, for the longest time, I always felt like I was the one who didn't need all that, like you're saying...but after a while being surrounded by guys who are capable of something you apparently aren't, it starts to wear on you and make you doubt yourself...as another poster said earlier, guys (especially Marines) can tend to be uber competitive...even though we don't intend to compete on who can bed the most women, I'm sure subconsciously it's like everything else that becomes a dick measuring contest... My experience in the military (not the US Military though, because I am not an American) has been that being the odd one out, can make things more difficult. Unit cohesiveness is important, and IMO there is more peer pressure (and competitiveness in the most ridiculous areas) in the military than in civilian life. Hokie, are you being mocked (and if you are, in what way) for not chasing tail like the rest of them? I don't think it's because I just want sex...I seriously gave up some incredible sex with the girl I was dating not too long ago...I think I just wanted to prove to myself that I was just as desirable as any of the other guys...I will admit (and my friends have told me this a number of times) that I get checked out based on my physique...a lot...and of course I'm doubtful of whether I can even do anything with what I have and attract people superficially... I know it's weird... External validation is important to you. But on the other hand, you seem to have a problem accepting the superficiality of it. I am not saying you should embrace the shallowness, but rather accept it for what it is. That might help to put things in perspective. The first girl I ever slept with a few years ago was a one night stand...and after that experience, I told myself I'd never have sex outside of a relationship...I've always wanted exactly what you're describing above...but being around these guys makes it sound so tempting...I guess I'm not as unimpressionable as I thought... Why? Do you think that you might like it (casual sex) better if you try it once more, or would you say it's rather about your ego/pride? I ask because you said you gave up good sex and a relationship because you were curious to see if you could do what the other guys do. When did you start referring to women as "tail"? I am sure his friends use that expression, which is probably why he, in the context of this thread, adopted their lingo. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Star Gazer Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 I am sure his friends use that expression, which is probably why he, in the context of this thread, adopted their lingo. I wouldn't read too much into it. Monkey see, monkey do? It's a disrespectful term, and that's a pretty silly "excuse" to use it.
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks for the reply, Stockalone. My experience has been different, so I can't really relate to your torn feelings. Seeing other guys (successfully or unsuccessfully) chase tail, only strengthened my belief that I never wanted to have casual sex. If you actually ended a relationship because of this, then I think that's sad. That said, it sounds like you need to experience it in order to be sure whether or not it's what you want. I've definitely regretted my decision to end my last relationship, but all of this on my mind really put a damper on my feelings towards her in addition to other things that made me want to end it...I always felt that I was a relationship-oriented kind of guy, and maybe spending so much time with those guys has steered me away from that...and right now I feel like I'm at a crossroads because we all went our separate ways last week and it's just me now... My experience in the military (not the US Military though, because I am not an American) has been that being the odd one out, can make things more difficult. Unit cohesiveness is important, and IMO there is more peer pressure (and competitiveness in the most ridiculous areas) in the military than in civilian life. Hokie, are you being mocked (and if you are, in what way) for not chasing tail like the rest of them? I'm not being mocked at all. I don't think any of them are encouraging me to bed women every weekend...it's more something I feel like I have to do after seeing them do it week in and week out... External validation is important to you. But on the other hand, you seem to have a problem accepting the superficiality of it. I am not saying you should embrace the shallowness, but rather accept it for what it is. That might help to put things in perspective. I'm sure to some extent, external validation is valued to differing degrees by everyone. I'm not different. But I totally understand the superficiality of it all and make a big joke out of being "vain." I'm not vain, I just act like it. Why? Do you think that you might like it (casual sex) better if you try it once more, or would you say it's rather about your ego/pride? I ask because you said you gave up good sex and a relationship because you were curious to see if you could do what the other guys do. I think it's much more about ego/pride...I would much rather have sex with one person in a relationship because I'd know that it meant something...that's really important to me...but on the other hand, I feel like I'll never genuinely believe that I'm as desirable as my friends, albeit based on superficial qualities that reign supreme in the club/bar scene... For example, at Va Beach last weekend, our point man started conversation with a girl who was there alone and introduced her to our group. Since her friend had apparently flaked out on meeting her at the bar, she decided to join our group for the night. One of the first things she said was that we were the only group she'd ever met that didn't have an ugly one in the group. Of course in my drunken state, I insisted that I was the ugly one. So of course I'd like to believe based on internal validation that I'm just as good, if not better, than the company that I keep, but realistically speaking, anyone knows it's easier said than done... I am sure his friends use that expression, which is probably why he, in the context of this thread, adopted their lingo. I wouldn't read too much into it. Anything I say or do is always scrutinized. I'm used to it. But yes, I don't actually talk like that...
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 If you didn't have these friends, would you still want to do what they're doing (random hookups, ONS, etc.) ? Probably not...I see what you're saying...
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 But, you can go off to another part of the place you are at, and sit by yourself. It's certainly worth a try, but oftentimes as a guy, you are seen as that anti-social creeper that no one wants to talk to...
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 That's because you do need it. Saying otherwise is just a rationalization you use to protect your ego. Women are beautiful and every man goes through a phase where he wants to sample whats out there. The men with the options and ability take advantage. Not to say you should dedicate your life to womanizing but getting around a bit will change the way you view women. You'll never need to be needy, insecure or conciliatory when your gf's being a bitch when you have the confidence that you can generate options. There is a reason many women are turned off by the schlubs with little experience and want a manwhore. Those guys truly know how to act with women and the women(maybe subconsciously) know it as well. Your future relationships will thank you for it. This makes a lot of sense... Fun is subjective. Also, people are different. Whilst pop culture says that going clubbing and getting drunk are normal activities, I'm not really into that. I'd rather go with a girl to the cinema, or the beach, but not clubbing. Maybe these friends of yours and yourself are different kinds of people. I think you're right, but not being able to do something others can do makes me feel a little blah, you know?
AD1980 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Most of my friends are married now but back in the day not getting women hurt bad enough but to get ignored and have women pretty much toss you to the side to talk to your friend makes you feel like sh-t... One of my former player friends is married now but women still hang all over him while im a ghost lol
welikeincrowds Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Okay, so I still am having trouble understanding the conflict. I see that one of your desires is to have sex with random women every weekend. Why are you holding yourself back from this goal? What are your conflicting feelings, what thoughts or feelings are causing you to not simply be going for this full speed ahead? Some ideas: * goals are not clearly defined * unsure of how to achieve goals * unhappy with goals * unwilling to suffer side-effects associated with achieving goals
Star Gazer Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 But yes, I don't actually talk like that... Then why did you talk like that? YOU are the one that used the terms "tail" and "conquests" to describe these women. You weren't describing a conversation you had with the guys who allegedly use these terms or how they described women. No, it's how YOU described these women. You see women as a means to validate your self-worth, and yet you don't treat them with the respect you want so badly for yourself.
Star Gazer Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Okay, so I still am having trouble understanding the conflict. I see that one of your desires is to have sex with random women every weekend. Why are you holding yourself back from this goal? It seems clear to me that he's not the one holding himself back from this goal? It's the women - they aren't interested in him, they're interested in his friends.
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Why are you holding yourself back from this goal? What are your conflicting feelings, what thoughts or feelings are causing you to not simply be going for this full speed ahead? I don't think I can do it, because I can't do it even in the most ideal conditions... * goals are not clearly defined I'm not sure whether it's the actual act of random casual sex that I want or validation that I'm as desirable as my friends via casual sex (i.e., doing what they can do). * unsure of how to achieve goals I think this is where I have the biggest issue and apprehension. Over the past few months, I've lost any confidence I'd ever had in being able to pick up women like my friends did, especially when I was out with them. Insecurities I had once suppressed came back out (especially with a little alcohol), and I feel like I'm right back where I was when my ex left me a couple years ago. * unhappy with goals * unwilling to suffer side-effects associated with achieving goals It's too soon to really know about these...
Stockalone Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Monkey see, monkey do? It's a disrespectful term, and that's a pretty silly "excuse" to use it. Then why did you talk like that? YOU are the one that used the terms "tail" and "conquests" to describe these women. You weren't describing a conversation you had with the guys who allegedly use these terms or how they described women. No, it's how YOU described these women. I agree that he wasn't describing a specific conversation, but I got the impression that he was talking about how his friends think, and thus used their words as well. Why should he use a different word for it, when describing what his friends do when that is what they call it? Besides, maybe some women will think twice before having casual sex when they are reminded of how some men think about them. You see women as a means to validate your self-worth, and yet you don't treat them with the respect you want so badly for yourself. That's certainly possible, and I would actually agree based on what I have read. I don't follow his threads closely enough to be sure, though. It seems clear to me that he's not the one holding himself back from this goal? It's the women - they aren't interested in him, they're interested in his friends. Women are more interested in his friends, and I believe that bothers him more than not having casual sex. I am not sure that the sex is the goal. He said he wasn't interested in the kind of sexual conquests his friends had (having sex in the same room, or even bed, with others watching, etc.). His response to my post goes in that direction, as well. His friends have more options, given to them by women. I think that if he had those options his friends have, that might be enough validation. I am not sure that he would actually need the sex. He already had a ONS, I am sure if he went out looking for another (if need be alone, without his friends), he could have one. I've definitely regretted my decision to end my last relationship, but all of this on my mind really put a damper on my feelings towards her in addition to other things that made me want to end it...I always felt that I was a relationship-oriented kind of guy, and maybe spending so much time with those guys has steered me away from that...and right now I feel like I'm at a crossroads because we all went our separate ways last week and it's just me now... I think it's much more about ego/pride...I would much rather have sex with one person in a relationship because I'd know that it meant something...that's really important to me...but on the other hand, I feel like I'll never genuinely believe that I'm as desirable as my friends, albeit based on superficial qualities that reign supreme in the club/bar scene... You said you wanted to end that relationship for other reasons as well. Do you think that you would be able to have a relationship where you are happy with what you have and wouldn't think about wanting to be a player? Granted, that's a hypothetical scenario, but it might help to see which side you are leaning towards. Happy with a relationship, or needing to have that sowing your wild oats phase before you can be happy in a relationship. And since I mentioned it in my reply to Star Gazer. What bothers you more? That you don't have the same options as your friends, which arguably makes them more attractive or better? Or are you bothered that they are actually having sex with different women every week when you don't? EDIT: I just saw your last reply, which basically answered this. You don't know yet what you want. I'm not being mocked at all. I don't think any of them are encouraging me to bed women every weekend...it's more something I feel like I have to do after seeing them do it week in and week out... I was trying to get a feel for the group dynamic, if there was some form of outside pressure or not. I was mocked in your situation, but mostly in good spirit, and I mocked the other guys for their behaviour as well. I'm sure to some extent, external validation is valued to differing degrees by everyone. I'm not different. But I totally understand the superficiality of it all and make a big joke out of being "vain." I'm not vain, I just act like it. I don't understand what you mean. One of the first things she said was that we were the only group she'd ever met that didn't have an ugly one in the group. Of course in my drunken state, I insisted that I was the ugly one. So of course I'd like to believe based on internal validation that I'm just as good, if not better, than the company that I keep, but realistically speaking, anyone knows it's easier said than done... I think this is where I have the biggest issue and apprehension. Over the past few months, I've lost any confidence I'd ever had in being able to pick up women like my friends did, especially when I was out with them. Insecurities I had once suppressed came back out (especially with a little alcohol), and I feel like I'm right back where I was when my ex left me a couple years ago. Has something else happened that could have caused those feelings, besides seeing your friends hook up with women? Regardless, you do realize that this is silly, don't you? Because there is almost always going to be someone with a more interesting personality, someone better looking, someone taller, etc. Even if you are the least attractive one in your group, that only says something about your attractiveness within this specific group. Nothing more. Edited July 4, 2011 by Stockalone
thehead Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 May I just say, for a dude with your emotional make-up, getting down with women under those circumstances wouldn't be a good idea--at all. The fantasy is very different than the reality. Very. You're simply in the wrong scene with the wrong guys. I'm not saying dump them but avoid putting yourself in the situation so you don't lose sight of who you are, and what you really want. Anything less is a sell-out of yourself.
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Then why did you talk like that? YOU are the one that used the terms "tail" and "conquests" to describe these women. You weren't describing a conversation you had with the guys who allegedly use these terms or how they described women. No, it's how YOU described these women. You see women as a means to validate your self-worth, and yet you don't treat them with the respect you want so badly for yourself. I specifically used those terms because I felt that they best described what these guys did and what I thought I wanted to do. See how it painted a clear word picture?
Star Gazer Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Why should he use a different word for it, when describing what his friends do when that is what they call it? Again, monkey see, monkey do? We use words to denote what WE think, not what others think. Thus, he is thinking of women as "tail." That's certainly possible, and I would actually agree based on what I have read. I don't follow his threads closely enough to be sure, though. I assure you, it's more than possible. It is. He's successful, fit, smart, etc., and the entire source of his insecurity for the past 5 years or so has been his ability to attract and keep women. Thus, they validate his self-worth. He already had a ONS, I am sure if he went out looking for another (if need be alone, without his friends), he could have one. When did that happen? The night he lost his virginity? You said you wanted to end that relationship for other reasons as well. He didn't think she was pretty enough, and thought he could "do better" from a physical standpoint (he was very attracted to her, he just felt he could "do better") and was concerned about his "tail" not equaling or measuring up to his friends' "tail." I don't understand what you mean. He doesn't understand himself, and contradicts himself all the time. He IS vain, he's admitted it several times. That's why he ACTS vain. People don't ACT vain when they aren't - it serves them absolutely no purpose.
Star Gazer Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 I specifically used those terms because I felt that they best described what these guys did and what I thought I wanted to do. See how it painted a clear word picture? That you even have the capability of thinking of women in those terms is disturbing. And it's something you've wanted to do for a long time. I refer you to your Tucker Max, Predatory Mindset thread. Again, you rely on women to validate your self-worth.
Ruby Slippers Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 That's because you do need it. Saying otherwise is just a rationalization you use to protect your ego. Women are beautiful and every man goes through a phase where he wants to sample whats out there. The men with the options and ability take advantage. Not to say you should dedicate your life to womanizing but getting around a bit will change the way you view women. You'll never need to be needy, insecure or conciliatory when your gf's being a bitch when you have the confidence that you can generate options. There is a reason many women are turned off by the schlubs with little experience and want a manwhore. Those guys truly know how to act with women and the women(maybe subconsciously) know it as well. Your future relationships will thank you for it. I agree with this. I say have some fun. But it does sound like what's really bothering you is that your friends get more female attention than you do. Well, there's not that much you can do about that. I have some very pretty female friends that men swarm around whenever we go out. And that rarely happens to me. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but I'll never be as attractive to men as those women. I might be nicer, more caring, smarter, whatever. (And believe me, they target the hottest guys, and go through men like Kleenexes.) But they are prettier, so they win at the bar/club game.
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 May I just say, for a dude with your emotional make-up, getting down with women under those circumstances wouldn't be a good idea--at all. The fantasy is very different than the reality. Very. You're simply in the wrong scene with the wrong guys. I'm not saying dump them but avoid putting yourself in the situation so you don't lose sight of who you are, and what you really want. Anything less is a sell-out of yourself. Well, they are all pretty much out of the picture now...we've all gone to different parts of the country for work so it's just me still here...and the more I think about it, the more I feel that you're right...that I was trying so hard to be someone I wasn't just because everyone else was doing it...I wanted to be that Marine you hear women at the bars going crazy over...I wanted that to be me for a change...
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 That's certainly possible, and I would actually agree based on what I have read. I don't follow his threads closely enough to be sure, though. Star's right to some extent...like my friends did, I sought to use women as a means for self-validation... You said you wanted to end that relationship for other reasons as well. Do you think that you would be able to have a relationship where you are happy with what you have and wouldn't think about wanting to be a player? Yes and no. I value relationships very highly and would love to be in one again...at times I feel some regret for ending my last one...but I also place myself in situations where I get stared at a lot (hopefully in a good way...), and it makes me wonder whether women are giving me attention because of the way I look or because I am desirable...and it makes me wonder whether I have more options than I think... And since I mentioned it in my reply to Star Gazer. What bothers you more? That you don't have the same options as your friends, which arguably makes them more attractive or better? Or are you bothered that they are actually having sex with different women every week when you don't? The former. I thought about it some more and have come to the source of my conflict in all of this. I do not want to use women to make myself feel more worthy, as I feel that I'm morally better than that...but spending time with these guys for so long made me feel like it was the only way...because it was pretty much the only way they were "better" than me... Has something else happened that could have caused those feelings, besides seeing your friends hook up with women? Regardless, you do realize that this is silly, don't you? Because there is almost always going to be someone with a more interesting personality, someone better looking, someone taller, etc. Even if you are the least attractive one in your group, that only says something about your attractiveness within this specific group. Nothing more. No, not really. And I know that all of this is kind of silly, and I'm beginning to feel less and less inclined to be them...but even if I'm not out trying to meet women for casual sex, it does affect my mindset in trying to meet a good woman for a relationship...
Author USMCHokie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 I agree with this. I say have some fun. But it does sound like what's really bothering you is that your friends get more female attention than you do. Well, there's not that much you can do about that. I have some very pretty female friends that men swarm around whenever we go out. And that rarely happens to me. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but I'll never be as attractive to men as those women. I might be nicer, more caring, smarter, whatever. (And believe me, they target the hottest guys, and go through men like Kleenexes.) But they are prettier, so they win at the bar/club game. Yea...I just have to convince myself that I should stay away from the bar/club game...it just leads to frustration for me...
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