Cheating normal?

[OldOnTheInside]

But those babies/children are at substantially higher risk than babies born to parents who are able to provide for and protect them.

 

Birth rates drop as infant and child mortality rates drop.

 

That's my point. Humans don't breed like mice. Every child is biologically precious since we have that 9 month waiting period.

 

Sigh. We have both failed to remain on topic.

Indeed.

[shadowofman]

But those babies/children are at substantially higher risk than babies born to parents who are able to provide for and protect them.

 

Birth rates drop as infant and child mortality rates drop.

 

Modern economic conditions add an entirely new dimension to this conversation. Keep in mind that the world population is growing rapidly. And promiscuous people are the majority contributors. All other facts are inconsequential.

 

If a promiscuous inclination is in the genes (which it undeniably is based on a survey of zoological behavior) and we accept that modern humans are the spawn of ancestors which were some degree promiscuous, then we must admit that promiscuity is a normal human trait today. Since cultural norms change far more rapidly than genetics change, we happen to be faced with a society at odds with our nature. Hence, people tend to "cheat" when acting out their promiscuity.

[shadowofman]

That's my point. Humans don't breed like mice. Every child is biologically precious since we have that 9 month waiting period.

 

I'm fully aware of this concept. But how is it relevant to "cheaters"?

[OldOnTheInside]

I'm fully aware of this concept. But how is it relevant to "cheaters"?

 

I dunno. Why did child mortality rates and all that other cr*p come up in the first place? The "cheaters" ship temporarily sailed away. And now it is back.

 

To stay on topic, another view that was different to your "argument" was posted quite a few pages ago. I'll parrot it.

 

Yes, we are have natural inclinations towards certain acts, such as promiscuity. But to look at it, not from an analytical or scientific view, but from a purely practical, every-day life view, something that is "biologically or socially normal" means very little to anyone. You don't act "normal" or "logical" all day in every aspect of your life do you? Humans are all relatively intelligent. We have reached levels of sentience and consciousness that other creatures couldn't compare to. Dolphins and apes don't have philosophical discussions on computers for instance. Basically, we're animals driven by instinct, but we're also more than other animals in many ways.

 

So to say that cheating is natural because most humans are naturally promiscuous is like saying murder and rape are natural, because humans are naturally inclined to such acts. There is validity to that statement. But it doesn't offer anything particularly practical to anybody.

 

Essentially, we can void what "normal" is because we have the ability to choose what we do and how we act. So "normal" means d*ck all.

Edited July 2, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[xxoo]

That's my point. Humans don't breed like mice. Every child is biologically precious since we have that 9 month waiting period.

 

It is more than the 9 months. Think how long the human baby/child is helpless.

 

I'm fully aware of this concept. But how is it relevant to "cheaters"?

 

I believe we evolved to develop strong family bonds. It helps to assure that 1. your genes survive until sexual maturity, and 2. the child you are investing 12+ years in is yours. The "fittest" had these support systems, and that is why society is the way it is today.

 

If people cheat for the instant gratification, it isn't because instant gratification is an evolutionary advantage. Inadequate impulse control is a good way to get killed, making it difficult to reproduce. Still, it exists.

[OldOnTheInside]

It is more than the 9 months. Think how long the human baby/child is helpless.

Yes, good point. I was just thinking purely about the physiological aspects of the reproductive cycle for the mother.

 

Inadequate impulse control is a good way to get killed

 

That too.

Edited July 2, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[Cabin]

You think we'd all swoon "if only" attractive men would approach us?

 

Let me be clear here. I am not talking about a man being "good looking" and therefore every woman swoons.

 

I literally mean the root of the word "attractive": attract!

 

There are only so many people on this earth who have that special magnetism and chemistry to attract one another in that deep heart/soul/mind/body kind of way...

 

and kind of connection is palpable, undeniable, and unfortunately very inconvenient for marriage.

[woinlove]

Let me be clear here. I am not talking about a man being "good looking" and therefore every woman swoons.

 

I literally mean the root of the word "attractive": attract!

 

There are only so many people on this earth who have that special magnetism and chemistry to attract one another in that deep heart/soul/mind/body kind of way...

 

and kind of connection is palpable, undeniable, and unfortunately very inconvenient for marriage.

 

That special magnetism and chemistry is not very rare -- I don't think it is exclusive to a limited number of people on this earth. My experience is that it is not so difficult to find if one is open to falling in love. The combination of that magnetism and chemistry with everything that is needed (values, skills, self-love, etc.) to keep it and build an enduring love that survives decades may be pretty rare.

[John Michael Kane]

Sigh. We have both failed to remain on topic.

 

Over the course of a lifetime, nearly everyone is bound to cheat. Though they may detest "cheating", it is due to the fact that their nature often demands it under certain circumstances. And indeed, this model of breeding is has been beneficial for countless species over millions of years. There are in fact very few species at all that would be truly monogamous, but psuedo-monogamous.

 

What are you rambling about? Seriously, these "scientific theories" have nothing to do with one intentionally choosing to cheat. All this talk about forms of love, "romantic love," and all that other romanticism bull crap is just irrelevant.

 

Choosing to cheat is a choice, not because of the circumstance or some pheromone humans give off to others that controls their minds and "makes" them want to screw each other's brains out.

[Woggle]

Why is it that certain people only seem to feel that magnetism in an affair? Take away the affair aspect and it is not there anymore. The overwhelming majority of relationships that start out as affairs crash and burn almost as fast as they start.

 

Also if giving into instant gratification is good for us how come people who do so end up with all sorts of problems. Drug addicts, alcoholics and over eaters tend not to live very healthy and happy lives and cheaters sometimes ruin their career like John Edwards and Anthony Wiener. If cheaters have children they sometimes end up scarring them for life. How is any of this good for a society? They might produce more children but there are many places in the world that are overpopulated, poverty stricken hellholes.

 

Making sure the next generation can grow into happy and healthy adults matters much more than making as many of them as you can.

[wheelwright]

Very good question...

 

How do we define "normal" in this case WW?

 

I agree with this. But...

 

I also agree with this...

 

Humanity has reached a level of sentience, that our whatever we consider to be "biologically natural" means d*ck all for the most part. As an example, we shouldn't be using contraceptives ever. Sex is for reproductive purposes only, you see...the pleasure we feel is just a bit of encouragement. We should also be hunting, dying at child birth far more often, dying before the age of thirty from some horrible disease, killing, raping, stealing, destroying, cannibalising, and flinging feces at each other(many of us do still do all of the above). Face it, we effed mother nature long ago.

 

So it is a choice like any other, and it is easy to make "poor choices". Poor choices that can potentially drag down a lot of other people. And all of us have made poor choices in the past and present. In that sense, it is normal.

 

Was going to read to the end of the thread, but did like this reply and needed to make a response. And my feelings on the interesting responses so far will filter in.

 

Clearly we are individuals, but some of this is a product of both biology and culture. I also believe in soul, which makes this argument more complex for, but not for those who hold no such belief.

 

In terms of biology, it seems we are half swans half monkeys. I am not a biologist, so I may have this wrong, but what I mean is we are both drawn towards mating for life, and drawn towards being some kind of Alpha beast who can do what they like within the community - and also dictate what others do. We may come to rest further down the pack, but for the sake of argument, we can all be alphas if we so wish, by searching further down the pool.

 

Culture and or soul make the latter seem quite yucky. Or yucktastic as my kids say (on other subjects!). Most of us prefer something different to serial sex with no commitment (in my circles - others may vary. It is culturally dependant).

 

I don't think As in the main are about biological influences taking over, though for sure ONSs could be. So there must be something flawed in individuals, or the culture, to lead to such a prevalence of this behaviour.

 

Unless it isn't a flaw.

 

I am utterly persuaded by the point that As are in many ways wrong, because of the pain they cause. I am less persuaded that this is about a flaw.

 

At least in the way it is a flaw, it is a necessary experience to explore it.

 

If an individual or a set of individuals arrive at a conflict, to my mind resolution occurs best when shifts are made by both sides.

 

And given the prevalence that I made a realisation of the other night, this isn't just an individual problem/issue. I wonder at this point, what exactly the problem is.

[wheelwright]

And some people live their lives going from one poor choice to the next, without ever truly changing behaviors.

 

Given that...I'd say that cheating IS normal...for some people.

 

Owl, I always read your posts with interest, not least because you are consistant and astute.

 

I do not intend to make poor choices forever, though I can see I could have behaved a whole lot better in the past.

 

Cheating is not normal for me. But I want to find out what exactly is, given that it is not monogamy with my xH.

 

Celibacy? Well, for now at least.

[John Michael Kane]

Why is it that certain people only seem to feel that magnetism in an affair? Take away the affair aspect and it is not there anymore. The overwhelming majority of relationships that start out as affairs crash and burn almost as fast as they start.

 

Also if giving into instant gratification is good for us how come people who do so end up with all sorts of problems. Drug addicts, alcoholics and over eaters tend not to live very healthy and happy lives and cheaters sometimes ruin their career like John Edwards and Anthony Wiener. If cheaters have children they sometimes end up scarring them for life. How is any of this good for a society? They might produce more children but there are many places in the world that are overpopulated, poverty stricken hellholes.

 

Making sure the next generation can grow into happy and healthy adults matters much more than making as many of them as you can.

 

Those "certain" people are just trying to justify their affairs.

[wheelwright]

I would like to introduce you to several couples then who have been together 40+ years and are like honeymooners I watch my parents and they are still very much in love; been married 49 years in September. I would also like to introduce you to my inlaws who have been married 60 years and are just too cute for words. Unfortunately, my FIL's weiner doesn't work anymore so they don't have intercourse, but the love and adoration they have for each other is wonderful to watch.

 

And why does it have to be about sex all the time? Can't a couple be in love but not screwing like rabbits? What about the people who are married and due to a health issue, an accident or whatever, the person is paralyzed or incapable of sex? Are you saying their marriage is sham because they aren't boffing each other day and night?

 

Do you not realize that people can still have deep love, passion and attraction and sex not be happening every day or every other day? Is a relationship over when sex stops? God, I hope there aren't people out there who are so shallow. I would love my H just as much if he were physically/emotionally/mentally unable to have sex with me. We connect on so many levels that when one area is lacking, it is made up for in other areas.

 

I am more like jwl; the majority of my friends who are married have not had infidelity be a part of their life. One of my best friends husband was cheating on her and one other friend met her now H when she was separated from her former H (and her current H was divorcing his now former wife). I have a dear friend who did divorce her husband, but not due to infidelity (although she did have an affair for the last year that she lived with her H). But the majority of my friends -- nope, no infidelity for them personally. I just asked my H and he said he knows of no one who has broken up due to infidelity or who have had to work through infidelity in their marriage.

 

I don't know of people who walk around proudly announcing how they are a cheater or a mistress. I know there are somel here (and thankfully some who aren't here) who do that; but I think that is really more baloney and they act that way just on here ... as if being a cheater/mistress is the "cool" thing to do.

 

I do not find cheating cool. I am not strutting here, and have met my nemesis in some ways, in the form of my own behaviour.

 

Perhaps I have been forced to meet my own shadow if you understand what I mean. And my H had to shake hands too. It was not pretty.

 

I also think that everyone has a shadow now. Maybe you will see that as a loss of innocence, but it is certainly a question over all the people who have enjoyed long Rs without keruffle.

 

Either they were saints to begin with, kept secret their demons, or have yet to meet them. I suspect after 40 years it isn't the last one.

 

I had my demons to meet. I wasn't a saint.

[wheelwright]

Yes, it is that hard!

 

And I know it isn't anyone else's "job" to tell those things... but I think for the most part our society engages in, what I like to call, "The Big Pretend" where we celebrate engagements and weddings, and never speak honestly about how hard marriage is. We rejoice over rings and cake and wedding dresses, but we don't openly share how inconsequential all those things are.

 

So nobody gets married thinking, "I don't want to be monogamous but I'm going to commit to a monogamous relationship anwyay."

 

What happens is that people commit to monogamy believing that how they feel in that moment will last, and that is is sustainable in the long term.

 

Most people don't think they're going to have trouble with monogamy because most of the stories we tell in our society make monogamy seem perfectly natural and easy.

 

And it ain't!

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly!

 

I would also say that in the case of my own M, I felt that I could live with the man I married. That it would be OK. I had 8 years of practice, and he told me he loved me.

 

I feel now you should have a stronger feeling than this to engage in M.

 

Nobody asked me how I felt or warned me of the repurcussions if I got it wrong.

 

It's a choice that if we get wrong, we face up to all alone, from start to finish.

[wheelwright]

If you look back at human history, you'll find very few "mechanisms" that seem to work in the long-term.

 

So I guess that we are all effed...

 

I think we are singularly adapted to confronting problems, though we take a long time to sort them out.

[wheelwright]

"Better to have something that is covered in only a small amount of vomit, than to have something that is drenched in vomit."

 

Feel free to quote me on that one.

 

I think the point is to keep changing the sheets and avoiding the toxins. Or have a shower and sleep somewhere else. Perhaps that's what infidelity tries mistakenly to do?

 

My goodness, this is a horrid metaphor.

 

Well, I am preferring the shadow metaphor, wherein we can integrate it and recognise it before it produces something messy.

[wheelwright]

 

Cheating is a choice. One people make every day.

The interesting question to me is "why".

And why doesn't the WS file for D? I do agree that they cheat because the M is no longer satisfactorily for them - that's easy to see. Wondering why they prolong things by cheating instead of filing for D? That's what I don't get.

 

I do have my theories though. Its all about fear. Cheaters don;t leave because they are afraid. Maybe I'll start asking what are they afraid of? What keeps them in the M?

 

How about it Cabin...I'll ask you first (don't you feel all warm and fuzzy). What fear keeps you M to your H?

 

I think this is one of the most spot on heart of the issue posts I have read in a long while.

 

And in answer, I think the biggest thing they are afraid of is getting it wrong. They are afraid of who they are. And they need to work that out to resolve.

 

As we all know, this can be realising the truth in the M, in the AP R, or in something else entirely. Rarely, but certainly not never, all three.

 

Never exclude all of the above.

[waytogo]

I think this is one of the most spot on heart of the issue posts I have read in a long while.

 

And in answer, I think the biggest thing they are afraid of is getting it wrong. They are afraid of who they are. And they need to work that out to resolve.

 

As we all know, this can be realising the truth in the M, in the AP R, or in something else entirely. Rarely, but certainly not never, all three.

 

Never exclude all of the above.

 

This takes me back to a previous post I made. In a more ideal world of course, why don't potential APs tell MM & MW to work it out at home, whether making it a place you want to be or know you have to leave, b4 you consider putting me, AP, in your life. It's what I wish I would have done. If it was something great so meant for us, how would that have stopped it?

[MissBee]

That special magnetism and chemistry is not very rare -- I don't think it is exclusive to a limited number of people on this earth. My experience is that it is not so difficult to find if one is open to falling in love. The combination of that magnetism and chemistry with everything that is needed (values, skills, self-love, etc.) to keep it and build an enduring love that survives decades may be pretty rare.

 

I agree....

 

I've learned that chemistry and magnetism, without the bolded, doesn't hold much water either for sustaining relationships.

 

I have had chemistry and magnetism with people lacking the rest and with myself lacking the rest and needless to say that didn't fare well.

 

Chemistry and magnetism are very much our raw animal side...but the bolded is the higher human aspect needed to build a strong relationship.

[wheelwright]

I agree....

 

I've learned that chemistry and magnetism, without the bolded, doesn't hold much water either for sustaining relationships.

 

I have had chemistry and magnetism with people lacking the rest and with myself lacking the rest and needless to say that didn't fare well.

 

Chemistry and magnetism are very much our raw animal side...but the bolded is the higher human aspect needed to build a strong relationship.

 

I can't help but ask myself at this point, after having split from H 2 years post A, what the M didn't have.

 

And what I feel about that makes me sad. We shared passion and values - hence the R lasted 20 years.

 

I did not have self-love and he did not have good R skills.

 

But I also feel I reached a point in my life where I was trying to transform in the above problems, and H did not/would not/could not come with me.

 

And after 5 years of trying to transform internally in the R, I simply fell in love. Given who I am, the A was inevitable. For other types who are more evolved/boring/stuck/ethical it would have been an EA. The sex part of it doesn't matter that much, it would have happened anyway.

 

At the end of the day, I had to move on or live in compromise and pretend.

 

I can't tell you exactly why. I am not a coward. Why didn't I just leave before? I guess the stakes were so high, my self-love only just then in existance, my feet were in the M, and hooking them out was beyond me. Like Spark said, in some ways my A was an exit A.

 

But I still think about my xAP all the time. I still feel he is my soulmate. I think it was a love exit A.

 

And contrary to what some of you feel, I am not a hopeless romantic. I just felt love when I felt it. I never used the term soulmate before xMOM, nor went about looking for this kind of connection. It just hit me.

 

Back to the opening thread. I think many things go on for couples. I don't believe I am the only one to transform via an A. I think As are part of transformation. I also think that I am a kind person who in the normal run of things actually goes out of the way not to hurt others.

]

Changing hurts, because the ego is invested in something else.

 

The prevalance of As may be in part that they are ideal catylists for personal transformations.

 

This can be as much in terms of re-dedicating as moving on.

[wheelwright]

If we are talking about Sickle Cell, that is an example of variation and adaptability. The people that have it, are resistent to malaria and are better adapted to survive in their environment, relative to that one particular factor. The people that don't have it, are, like you said, more vunerable to malaria.

 

Genghis Khan is a relatively unique case. He wasn't just a "slut". He was intelligent, charismatic, and physically fit and healthy. Basically, an ace in all areas. If Joe Schmoe tried to pull a Genghis Khan...well, he would fail miserably. So...survival of the fittest you know.

 

We are basically saying the same things with different labels.

 

xMOM who I fell in love with had had the big V. Go figure as they say over there!

[wheelwright]

Let me be clear here. I am not talking about a man being "good looking" and therefore every woman swoons.

 

I literally mean the root of the word "attractive": attract!

 

There are only so many people on this earth who have that special magnetism and chemistry to attract one another in that deep heart/soul/mind/body kind of way...

 

and kind of connection is palpable, undeniable, and unfortunately very inconvenient for marriage.

 

Depends on the M?

[wheelwright]

Those "certain" people are just trying to justify their affairs.

 

To justify something imples already that someone thinks it wrong.

 

And that you think it worth their opinion to argue.

 

I am not sure this is the case here.

[John Michael Kane]

To justify something imples already that someone thinks it wrong.

 

And that you think it worth their opinion to argue.

 

I am not sure this is the case here. It's the reason why you started this thread.

 

This is the case here. Just another attempt to justify behavior two "adults" knowingly engaged in.