Got it Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Of course. And for that reason, if no other, I doubt very much that that's the case. My friends and family have integrity - they're not hypocrites. For those in affairs, I agree. Okay, I am just replying to you indicating they may not be saying. What I have learned is you never really know people, life is grey and I do believe people do the best they can but they are not always perfect and they aren't always wise. But they do try their best. And not to continue arguing but actually I would argue that about everyone is hypocritical at times in different areas. Human nature, beliefs, opinions and actions do not tend to be consistent and stagnant. So at times we do and say the opposite of what we have said or done. But c'est la vie.
Silly_Girl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Well either way, whether my friends and family have actually experienced infidelity or not, because they don't admit to it, its obviously not something that they condone or excuse. And maybe that's the major difference? Some people hide their debts too. Then go hang themselves because they're too ashamed or ill-equipped to cope. I'd rather my friends talked to me, in either scenario.
Owl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Some people hide their debts too. Then go hang themselves because they're too ashamed or ill-equipped to cope. I'd rather my friends talked to me, in either scenario. So have you told all of your friends and family about your situation with MM? Do they all know about the whole situation? Or did you tell only some? Or hold back information because you felt that their knowledge and awareness of that information might impact your relationship with them?
woinlove Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Actually, then, in regards to your last statement, that can be a total dichotomy because if they are involved in infidelity but then publically are against it then it isn't actually how they feel and is quite hypocritical, very much do as I say not as I do. And that then muddles the waters quite a bit and I think is how most people are. This isn't anything special to infidelity. Some people cheat on taxes, both saying and thinking it is wrong, but they do it anyway because the greed gets the better of them. People do not always do what they believe to be right and honorable. If you only wanted to count people who both cheat and believe there is nothing wrong with cheating, that would be a smaller number than the number who cheat. For taxes, I recall a survey found about 10% of people really saw nothing wrong with cheating on taxes. Might be a similar number for cheating on spouses, but I haven't seen any data on this.
Silly_Girl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 So have you told all of your friends and family about your situation with MM? Do they all know about the whole situation? Or did you tell only some? Or hold back information because you felt that their knowledge and awareness of that information might impact your relationship with them? All but one person, yes; totally yes. And I wouldn't discuss my finances with that person either!
Got it Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 And sometimes they genuinely don't have debts. Just because you've been there and many other people that you know have told you they've been there too, doesn't mean everyone is the same. Sometimes people really are faithful in larger numbers than you'd appear to like. The implication that my friends and family don't feel they can talk to me, and that's the reason I don't know about their infidelities, is pretty ludicrous. For goodness sake Turnstone, if you feel that your friends and family are the best things than sliced bread then they are and just leave it at that. No one has implied that everyone is the same, everyone cheats, everyone is less than perfect. You opened things up by your wording and I know that myself and SG seemed to just go along your line of logic. Don't open the door to the argument if you don't want to have the argument. No one knows your friends and family so obviously cannot be speaking about them directly. Sheesh!
Got it Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 This isn't anything special to infidelity. Some people cheat on taxes, both saying and thinking it is wrong, but they do it anyway because the greed gets the better of them. People do not always do what they believe to be right and honorable. If you only wanted to count people who both cheat and believe there is nothing wrong with cheating, that would be a smaller number than the number who cheat. For taxes, I recall a survey found about 10% of people really saw nothing wrong with cheating on taxes. Might be a similar number for cheating on spouses, but I haven't seen any data on this. I am a bit confused on the quoting of me but I agree with you.
Silly_Girl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 And sometimes they genuinely don't have debts. Just because you've been there and many other people that you know have told you they've been there too, doesn't mean everyone is the same. Sometimes people really are faithful in larger numbers than you'd appear to like. The implication that my friends and family don't feel they can talk to me, and that's the reason I don't know about their infidelities, is pretty ludicrous. No. I just don't feel there's anything noble in saying that regardless of their actual experience, they wouldn't talk about it because they know it's wrong. That's not necessarily something to be proud about. It's always being said we should own our actions - I'd hope if they WERE affected, that they WOULD say something. I'd be sad to think my friends/family were too ashamed to turn to their loved ones. I'd think hiding it would be less healthy for them, which is more important than any pride issue.
Owl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 All but one person, yes; totally yes. And I wouldn't discuss my finances with that person either! Why not? Why wouldn't you discuss this information with this person? Are they untrustworthy and likely to use this information for their own gain or to hurt you in some fashion? Or is there likely to be some impact on your relationship with this person if they were aware of the full details?
ladydesigner Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Hi WW:bunny: I'm in the same boat. I do not know one person that hasn't been touched by infidelity. I also believe humans are not meant to be monogamous. I think infidelity is different for each person too. For my H it was because he was not getting enough sex, same with my mother when she had her A. My A initially was from a vengeful standpoint but also because I needed emotional connection and validation from someone who I thought cared about me. I do not believe infidelity is the end all of situations. I understand why it happens and it is usually for selfish reasons. I do not have strong feelings against or for cheaters as there is on this forum. I really am quite interested in this thread and reading all the input. I almost wonder if we were not socially programmed to be monogamous if we would naturally be that way or not.
Got it Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Why not? Why wouldn't you discuss this information with this person? Are they untrustworthy and likely to use this information for their own gain or to hurt you in some fashion? Or is there likely to be some impact on your relationship with this person if they were aware of the full details? Do you discuss all areas of your personal life with those around you? Do you have anyone around you that could use information against you? I know, even when married I did not tell everyone everything about my relationship as everyone was not on the same need to know basis. And there are family members in my life that would use information, tiffs, hurts, feelings, against you at a future date. So, in my case, many people around me knew about the EMR, some didn't. The ones that didn't didn't know many things about my married life either. I don't tend discuss that with all and sundry. To each their own.
Silly_Girl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Why not? Why wouldn't you discuss this information with this person? Are they untrustworthy and likely to use this information for their own gain or to hurt you in some fashion? Or is there likely to be some impact on your relationship with this person if they were aware of the full details? It's an inappropriately personal level of info. In respect of my friends I was honest and if they did not approve or were disgusted by my actions they could choose to cut ties. I do know that lots and lots of OW didn't feel comfortable sharing the info, but my friendships are valuable to me and are long-established. Lying to them about the man I'd fallen in love with would have been impossible for me.
ladydesigner Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Monogomy may very well go against what we were biologically geared to do upon our creation. But we are also not the same physically or mentally as we were upon creation. Evolution provides for adapting to needs as they change. And I would say it can't really be argued that things have definitely changed. So who's to say that the need to "spread the seed" is as great as it was when people's lifespans were that of mere years instead of a decade? When the chance of death by "leaving the cave" was probably greater then than it is now going off to war? Think carefully about that because this argument could well paint you in a corner. If the need to cheat is based soley on our primal instincts, then doesn't that actually argue against the reasons so many people say they are in A's? How many AP's say that they are in an A because the LOVE is so strong? Because they are not getting the EMOTIONAL FULFILLMENT at home? Because they are not loved, heard, or appreciated at home? Doesn't the biological argument make it all about sex and procreation? Yes, lack of sex is a big complaint for some who enter into A's. Others say it is only one part of the larger picture. Others say it has nothing to do with it. So I would have to ask, is it all about sex? If so, does that mean that MP's are fooling all AP's? Lying to them for nothing but sexual satisfaction? Are AP's lying to themselves that the reasons they're involved in these A's is based on love and connection when really it's about nothing but a biological urge for reproduction? This is a good point sadintexas because my A was not soley for sex, in fact it wasn't even about the sex AT ALL it was about the emotional validation and connection I was getting from my XAP.
silktricks Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I don't want to argue either. Would one be able to honestly say that somebody you have been married to for 40 odd years still turns you on physically, or even sparks an intellectual interest??? That is why so many people stray with extramarital intentions. Some are left with unsatisfied desires, while perhaps the spouse doesn't care. Well, maybe something weird will happen in the next 5 years but we've been together for 35 years and I can honestly say that he still turns me on physically :love:and most assuredly sparks an intellectual interest But, in regards to the OP. I think it's funny to consider whether or not we were "meant" to be with one person for life or not, as I don't know if I would buy into either meant to be with one person or meant to be with many partners. Most of the time, it seems that someone goes down this "meant to be" or "biologically natural" path as a way to excuse something society frowns upon. If I was "meant" to be with one person for life, I'd still be with my 1st H .:sick:. But, had I met and married my current husband earlier in my life, I have no doubt that we'd still be together. So, to be honest, I don't care if anyone says we are "meant" to be this, that or the other. I will choose to do what fits best for my life, not what some outside person says I am meant to do. OK... now that I've got my rant out of the way. As far as people in my circle who've been with more than one partner. That isn't (of course) the same as saying infidelity is the "natural" state. Most of us have in our intimate circle of friends people who have divorced and remarried. Though it's possible that infidelity was involved, it is certainly not a requirement for divorce. My current husband was divorced when I met him. There was no infidelity involved in his break-up with his first wife. Mine - oh yeah. However, for the rest - a completely mixed bag: my parents - so far as I know, no infidelity. One uncle yes, two no, brother - yes, sister - no, son #1 - yes, son #2 - no. Our friends - we have some friends whose current marriages are the direct result of their infidelity. Others who I sincerely doubt have ever experienced it - though for many I don't know - just as they don't know about me. Edited June 30, 2011 by silktricks
MissBee Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 This isn't anything special to infidelity. Some people cheat on taxes, both saying and thinking it is wrong, but they do it anyway because the greed gets the better of them. People do not always do what they believe to be right and honorable. If you only wanted to count people who both cheat and believe there is nothing wrong with cheating, that would be a smaller number than the number who cheat. For taxes, I recall a survey found about 10% of people really saw nothing wrong with cheating on taxes. Might be a similar number for cheating on spouses, but I haven't seen any data on this. Valid point! Which speaks to another posters point about cheating being more common than it is normal.
Owl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 If "normal" behavior is defined within 2 standard deviations from the mean then cheating is indeed "normal" behavior. What's the mean in this case? As a matter of fact...what's the standard deviation in human relationships? So...what was it that you were trying to state here?
threebyfate Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 "Everyone else is doing it so it must be normal, hence okay to do" isn't much of an argument to allow yourself to do anything that's detrimental to your well-being. As an example, pretty much everyone I know comes home from work and parks themselves in front of the TV until it's time to go to sleep. In doing so, they've all gained so much weight that they've far exceeded the obese category. And yet, some people don't TV veg, instead living more healthy lifestyles and being more healthy and happier for it, since exercise helps people both physically and psychologically.
xxoo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 If "normal" behavior is defined within 2 standard deviations from the mean then cheating is indeed "normal" behavior. Because the stats are so high, I assume. But the stats are asking (as it seems WW was considering in her OP), have you ever cheated/been cheated on? The cheating episode may be an aberrant experience for the individual, or the couple, and not be a true picture of their "normal" relationship. In a random snapshot survey, asking people if they are currently cheating, I wonder what the percentages would be. And yet, some people don't TV veg, instead living more healthy lifestyles and being more healthy and happier for it, since exercise helps people both physically and psychologically. So happy I'm not "normal" in this example! Why be normal, anyway?
threebyfate Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I should clarify that the example I used isn't a personal experience one. It's just a fictitious one that isn't outrageous.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Very good question... How do we define "normal" in this case WW? If you want my true thoughts, as a physician... I think that biologically, humans were not meant to be monogamous from a purely physical standpoint.I agree with this. But... Ah, and so we see the new "religion" of evolution being trotted out again. Seems we now have a replacement for "the devil/god/demons/whatever made me do it". Now the blame can be shifted to our "genes" and we still need take no responsibility for our behavior. "My genetics made me do it".I also agree with this... Humanity has reached a level of sentience, that our whatever we consider to be "biologically natural" means d*ck all for the most part. As an example, we shouldn't be using contraceptives ever. Sex is for reproductive purposes only, you see...the pleasure we feel is just a bit of encouragement. We should also be hunting, dying at child birth far more often, dying before the age of thirty from some horrible disease, killing, raping, stealing, destroying, cannibalising, and flinging feces at each other(many of us do still do all of the above). Face it, we effed mother nature long ago. So it is a choice like any other, and it is easy to make "poor choices". Poor choices that can potentially drag down a lot of other people. And all of us have made poor choices in the past and present. In that sense, it is normal.
Owl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 So it is a choice like any other, and it is easy to make "poor choices". Poor choices that can potentially drag down a lot of other people. And all of us have made poor choices in the past and present. In that sense, it is normal. And some people live their lives going from one poor choice to the next, without ever truly changing behaviors. Given that...I'd say that cheating IS normal...for some people.
26pointblue Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Okay I think it's a bad example to compare us to our evoluntary ancestors & other animals with lower intelligence levels [Dear John Kane: Most mammals are NOT monogamous], because with intelligence comes communication & emotions & all of that stuff that's unique to us as evolved humans. Yeah rabbits run around humping each other but do they feel love as we do? No. Do they sit there & tell each other 'I love you & will hump only you?' Do they stand up in front of their friends, families, & their idea of God or what have you & make commitments to be faithful to each other? No! They are just rabbits, they are just doing what rabbits do. And we do what people do which is hump, AND have emotions for each other, connections with each other, make promises to each other, etc. So whether it's natural or not most people have decided it's a good way to live. Most people don't want to be cheated on & don't believe cheating is right. Most people don't care who humps who as long as that person hadn't held themselves out to be committed to someone else & is actively breaking that commitment without informing the other human [not rabbit. ) So to me . . . I don't know or care if it's normal or natural but I do know that I want to be monogamous & I only want to be with someone who wants to be monogamous with me. Isn't that all I need to know? If you don't believe in monogamy, cool, don't get married [or get married on your own terms - open marriage, etc.] But to me what comes across as not okay to most social circles is the cheating aspect of it. Making a commitment to one person & then going behind that person's back, lying to them, betraying them, & cheating on them with someone else. We as humans are to our knowledge the only animals o nthe planet that have the capacity to love each other to this extent, & to hurt each other to this extent. That is why we cannot compare matter of sex & love to other animals or bring 'science' or anatomy into the discussion because it's all irrelevant. What matters is whether we are hurting someone or loving someone, keeping our promises or breaking them. What I learned as an OW is that my actions affect other people & they do come back & hurt me. That is a very 'human' concept that is very closely tied up with the idea of monogamy & cheating.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) And some people live their lives going from one poor choice to the next, without ever truly changing behaviors. Given that...I'd say that cheating IS normal...for some people. Interesting point. I know that during my time, I've made poor choices on a similar magnitude to infidelity (not like there is a "poor choices" scale to measure them though). Hell, during my teens to mid-thirties I've seen and done things that are faaaar worse than being involved in an affair. So while my behaviour was "normal" in the environments that I was placed in, I would hardly call them positive experiences overall, for all people involved. Even though I changed my behaviour and got out, I don't doubt that I hurt a lot of people along the way. The fact that I learnt from my past experiences offers no consolation for them. I dunno, I'm not a fan of trying to pretty up poor choices. When I hear my friends lecture me on "grey and grey morality, learning from your mistakes, how XXXX did this so I did that, and being really really sorry" I just think that they are telling themselves that to help them sleep at night. It's easier to form a protective bubble than to say "I effed up entirely on my own". Anyway, getting off-topic so I shall shush. Edited June 30, 2011 by OldOnTheInside
waytogo Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 I was thinking about this recently WW. When I unfortunately was OW, xMM & I took a few trips w/ 2 other couples together. They knew he was M and that we had the same room. We did no PDA at dinners or on tours; but these people were not stupid. They knew his W also. They treated me like a welcomed party they were interested to know more. I couln't understand it even then. This wasn't a swingers group by any stretch. xMMs W is a person people respect. I have no reason to believe they disliked her or thought she made this situation. There have been no known As in my family and most of my friends. Even I didn't agree with me at that time & did expect at least the other Ws not to treat me as warmly as they did. Maybe they were just glad it wasn't them? I don't know. Despite what I did, I do not condone it & agree with the poster that said as humans we have more control of our actions than other animals. xMM & I didn't meet at a fire hydrant & neither of us should have acted like we should emmulate behavior of beings who use a hydrant as a restroom. We were given brains, but weren't using them for a while.
chalkfarm Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Hi Wheel, I just posted the link to a NY Times article in a separate thread. To a certain degree, it addresses your query. Definitely worth a look for a woman with such an interesting questioning mind!
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