Opening Up The Marriage As a Path Towards Infidelity

[Holding-On]

I also think that people who have open marriages from the outset, or at least are open to the idea, are very different from the 'I've met someone else so now I'd like to open up our marriage' scenarios that we sometimes see here.

 

As a person in an open marriage (from the beginning) I would agree with this.

 

TDP:

I have not joined in because the original poster was asking about people who open up their marriages later on NOT those who always were non-sexually exclusive. Since I run in polyamorous circles I will list the lengths of marriages/long term partnerships I know:

Because I am around the age I am, most poly couples I know are around the 15 year mark (right off the top of my head I can think of 5, including mine). Three I knew of were 20-30 years. The rest of the people I never thought to ask. Many at parties (non-sexual, I don't do swinging) /poly discussions I went to seemed to be in the 5-10 mark but I don't know.

 

I don't come on here and defend polyamory for the following reasons:

1. I am talking to brick walls

2. between husband, children, work, housework, boyfriend, friends and social events I'm a little busy

3. My experience with the monogamous (why I got on this board in the first place) has led me to believe that there really is a difference in the wiring between poly and mono people. I don't preach that this is a good life for most people because most people seem to be monogamous or selfishly non-monogamous (okay with being with others but not their partners having others).

 

but YES it works for me

[RepairMinded]

holding-on,

 

what if any boundaries exist in your relationship regarding who you and your husband are or are not allowed to be involved with, and how are these boundaries enforced?

[RepairMinded]

Examples of various "boundaries" that might be appropriate to someone considering polyamory--

 

--Rigorous STD screening six months prior to a sexual encounter with anyone "new" with re-screenings every six months; ("new" means someone you/your spouse has never had sex with before, regardless of whether or not they are "known" in your particular circles)

 

--Requiring anyone "new" to provide a detailed history of their past and current sexual partners;

 

--Birth control methods, and verification of same;

 

--Specific procedures in place, ahead of time, in the event someone "breaks the rules"; (example: let's say one of your rules is no emotional involvement but one of the partners gets emotionally involved anyway. What rules do you have in place to deal with that? No Contact?)

 

--Who decides what sex partners each spouse gets? Is there any "veto" power? Does the outside sex partner have to come from the known "polyamory community"? If so--why?

 

And so forth.

[rafallus]

That was simply the idea that opening up a marriage weakens it to cheating. And it doesn't.

Opening up a marriage renders sex with other people not being cheating, because it was mutually agreed between spouses.

 

Still, I don't see, how open relationship would be more stable or commited.

[RepairMinded]

Another question for holding-on:

 

--Let's say you and your spouse agree that you can have a sexual relationship with someone else in the polyamory community.

 

How do you know/set limits on your new sexual partner's, other sexual partners?

 

After all if you are having sex with Johnny and your husband is having sex with Sally in addition to each other, and Johnny and Sally are polyamorous, there's nothing stopping Johnny or Sally, or both of them, from having sex with the New York Knicks. And if they do have sex with the New York Knicks, they're bringing the Knicks into bed with....you.

 

PLEASE don't cop out with: "But we trust one another!"

 

"They promised not to have unprotected/unsafe sex with other people!"

 

How do you have any guarantee that your "polyamorous friend" that you chose to bring into your marriage, isn't just an STD-infested pus bag?

 

"Because we're not like that." LOL.

[RepairMinded]

Opening up a marriage renders sex with other people not being cheating, because it was mutually agreed between spouses.

 

Right. But this is just semantics obviously. That's why I tried to emphasize the issue of non-exclusivity. It's not just a matter of being truthful, because if someone is lying to you about the degree of their emotional involvement with a "known" sex partner, that's "cheating" within the context of an "open" relationship. Since it's a very "soft" boundary (who's to say what the level of emotional involvement is when you're admittedly having sex with the person?), how can you even tell if you're being "cheated on"? You can't. Anything goes.

 

 

Still, I don't see, how open relationship would be more stable or committed.

 

It obviously isn't more stable or committed. Only a man with a latent cuckold fetish would want another man having sex with "his" woman--IF he actually loved "his" woman. But if he feels no particularly strong emotional attachment to her--sure, why not?

[Glinda]

The cheating wasn't about sex. It also wasn't about being emotionally involved with someone else. It was a bit of mid life crisis, running away, hiding, internal conflict, she appealed to a side of him that in his words is evil and selfish. It was a fantasy to not have to face the problems in the real world. It was an escape that he would sink into when he was feeling overwhelmed by day to day life. And even if we hadn't been open, he would have cheated with her at that point of time. No doubt in my mind.

I don't see the difference between escaping life by having an affair and escaping the commitment of monogamy by having an open M. They are both escapes that allow avoidance of reality.

[John Bigboote]

How do you have any guarantee that your "polyamorous friend" that you chose to bring into your marriage, isn't just an STD-infested pus bag?

 

You go to the clinic together and get tested. Is this not standard safe-sex procedure on your planet?

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'd like to know why the OP started a thread to pose some questions, and then when ONE person who can speak, from personal experience for an "Open Marriage" that appears to be working for BOTH parties (crazycatlady), OP completely "deconstructs" every single phrase she contributes. Using faulty reasoning, of course, but still refutes all she says and tries to make her feel like crap for participating.

 

Why?

 

I mean, I know it is the absolute, predictable carbon copy behavior of all the myriad and never ceasing sock puppets of this particular OP, but

 

WHY?

 

Dear "RepairMinded": since you are "against" open marriages, how about you just refrain from being in one yourself? What's it to you, anyway?

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I'd like to know why the OP started a thread to pose some questions, and then when ONE person who can speak, from personal experience for an "Open Marriage" that appears to be working for BOTH parties (crazycatlady), OP completely "deconstructs" every single phrase she contributes. Using faulty reasoning, of course, but still refutes all she says and tries to make her feel like crap for participating.

 

Why?

 

I mean, I know it is the absolute, predictable carbon copy behavior of all the myriad and never ceasing sock puppets of this particular OP, but

 

WHY?

 

Dear "RepairMinded": since you are "against" open marriages, how about you just refrain from being in one yourself? What's it to you, anyway?

 

about RepairedMinded and his comments, particularly about STD's. However that does not take away from him being right in his deconstruction of CCL, who if you have read her posts from the last year, tells me that she is in denial about a # of factors.

[RepairMinded]

I'd like to know why the OP started a thread to pose some questions, and then when ONE person who can speak, from personal experience for an "Open Marriage" that appears to be working for BOTH parties (crazycatlady),

 

It doesn't appear to be working. Crazycatlady herself states her husband has not even begun to address his issues as to why he cheated. He just says he's sorry over and over which is not satisfactory to her. She even hints that if he doesn't "change", in what way we do not know, she will impose some sort of (undefined) consequence.

 

 

 

OP completely "deconstructs" every single phrase she contributes.

 

No one asked anyone to come into this discussion thread making their own specific situation a highlight or counterexample, but having done so, it's subject to analysis (or "deconstruction" as you call it).

 

 

Using faulty reasoning, of course, but still refutes all she says and tries to make her feel like crap for participating.

 

Why?

 

I didn't try to make anyone feel like anything. In contrast it was crazycatlady who came into the thread insisting she was absolutely right, simply because she agreed to "open marriage," and everyone else therefore must be wrong. She repeatedly denies that having discussed an open relationship may have created a climate making it more conducive for her husband to cheat on her with her own sister yet without explaining how that could be.

 

I mean, I know it is the absolute, predictable carbon copy behavior of all the myriad and never ceasing sock puppets of this particular OP, but

 

WHY?

 

Why what? If you have something to say regarding open marriages as they relate to infidelity, be my guest. If not....perhaps you have something better do with your time, and should do it?

 

Dear "RepairMinded": since you are "against" open marriages, how about you just refrain from being in one yourself? What's it to you, anyway?

 

It's a spin-off from kidd's discussion thread because he didn't want he & his wife's discussion of open marriage and its possible relation to her, and his, infidelity discussed in his thread any longer.

[RepairMinded]

You go to the clinic together and get tested. Is this not standard safe-sex procedure on your planet?

 

The question was directed to holding-on as to how she handles it.

 

The way I handle safe sex is maintain a long term monogamous relationship with someone I know well enough to completely trust.

 

Since you interjected John, tell us the specifics of your open relationship? You go to a sex clinic with your casual hook-ups, together, get tested, together, wait six months before having sex, and exchanged documentation? Then repeat that every six months? You also are able to get your casual sex partners to divulge their sexual history and who else they are currently "seeing"? Explain how that works please?

[rafallus]

It obviously isn't more stable or committed. Only a man with a latent cuckold fetish would want another man having sex with "his" woman--IF he actually loved "his" woman. But if he feels no particularly strong emotional attachment to her--sure, why not?

Provided that boards for cuckolds have any credibility and aren't just a bunch of fakers, situation is bound to get out of control for cuckold.

[RepairMinded]

Provided that boards for cuckolds have any credibility and aren't just a bunch of fakers, situation is bound to get out of control for cuckold.

 

It's a truism that many women (to a greater extent than men) tend to fall in love with men that they are having sex with. In fact that's probably biologically intended (associating of mating behavior with emotional bonding, that is).

 

Obviously if the wife was completely satisfied with her man in bed, she wouldn't be up for an additional man, or men, in the first place. She is looking for something--and if she finds it--watch out.

[RepairMinded]

And how does one know that between those six months of waiting that they didn't go off and get them a quickie?

 

LOL, I was just asking the questions about safe-sex practices of polyamorists/swingers/open marriage advocates, for the sake of argument.

 

Do YOU really believe most of these advocates actually practice stringent safe-sex practices? I'm skeptical. Highly skeptical.

[RepairMinded]

Oh yea most of them love as they say in the cuckolding world, "barebacking."

 

So, you're saying that people who are actually into this "lifestyle," deliberately practice UN-safe sex???

 

Hopefully the few supporters of the "lifestyle" who have spoken up in this thread, will clarify how they actually go about ensuring that they remain disease-free--or if UN-safe sex is practiced by them or any of their partners, how that is acceptable/justified.

Edited June 27, 2011 by RepairMinded

[John Bigboote]

The way I handle safe sex is maintain a long term monogamous relationship with someone I know well enough to completely trust.

 

But you asked for a guarantee. I don't see any guarantees in that arrangement. Perhaps you will someday discover that your trust in that one person was misplaced. I hope not, but trust is no guarantee. There is no such thing as a guarantee. There is only risk management. You yourself think trust is a cop out:

 

PLEASE don't cop out with: "But we trust one another!"

So trust is good enough for you, but the goalposts move to the impossible guarantee for anyone who doesn't share your relationship mode. Doesn't sound like you've thought this through very hard. Or, rather, you probably have.

 

Since you interjected John

It's a public forum.

 

tell us the specifics of your open relationship? You go to a sex clinic with your casual hook-ups, together, get tested, together, wait six months before having sex, and exchanged documentation?

Basically, yes, that's the idea. If you had been STD tested this century, you would know that the HIV window period is about 16 days, not 6 months.* Given that, we are satisfied with a reasonably recent test and barriers. We are not dense enough to require a guarantee, only to intelligently manage the risks (do you ask for a guarantee that there will be no horrifying road accident every time you get in a friend's car?).

 

You also are able to get your casual sex partners to divulge their sexual history and who else they are currently "seeing"? Explain how that works please?

The accuracy of the tests and the efficacy of barrier methods negate the need to know anything else about anyone you won't be seeing again.

 

As far as people you want to have some kind of ongoing relationship with, then you ask and they answer, and you decide if they're trustworthy or not. It's that trust thing again that you claim is both a cop-out and the only safe-sex method you use. Combined with condoms, and avoiding high-risk activities, it's not a guarantee, but then, nothing is in this life.

 

If I were looking for a guarantee, then I would never have sex with anyone, or allow myself to fall in love, or drive a car, or fly a plane, or leave my house. If managing the risks of a truly horrible death in a fiery car wreck by wearing seatbelts and using airbags is noncontroversial despite their lack of 100% effectiveness, I don't see why testing, condoms, safer sex, and trust shouldn't be.

 

* Given that you have not had an STD test in the last 10 years or so, and I have a recent clean one, which person here, the monogamist or the polyamorist, is more likely to be the "STD-infested pusbag"?

Edited June 27, 2011 by John Bigboote

[RepairMinded]

* Given that you have not had an STD test in the last 10 years or so, and I have a recent clean one, which person here, the monogamist or the polyamorist, is more likely to be the "STD-infested pusbag"?

 

You are, obviously.

[RepairMinded]

Exactly!!!:laugh:

 

Apparently John doesn't know what a "false negative" is.

[What_Next]

If I missed the point of this thread then I apologize, but if a couple wants to have an open marriage, and if it works for them why should we judge that? Certainly can't be called cheating if both sides are aware of it and agree to it right?

 

Personally I find the concept replusive and would NEVER be able to tolerate it, but if it works for others so be it. There are many sets of behavior that I personally could not be involved in but others choose to.

 

Once again if I missed the point of this thread I apologize, I'd go blind if I tried to read some of the soliloquizes in this thread...

[RepairMinded]

If I missed the point of this thread then I apologize, but if a couple wants to have an open marriage, and if it works for them why should we judge that?

 

The issue is whether having an open marriage, or even just contemplating one, lowers boundaries thus making it easier for one or both of the parties to cheat.

 

 

Certainly can't be called cheating if both sides are aware of it and agree to it right?

 

"Agree" to what, exactly? "Aware of" what, exactly? If you permit your spouse to have sexual relations with a third person, but only on the condition that they don't become emotionally involved, how, exactly, is that going to be practical to enforce?

 

Maybe when your wife cheated on you, she thought you'd be O.K. with it. Maybe she thought retroactively getting your approval for her sex with another man would be good enough. Maybe when you cheated on her, you thought it was justified because she cheated on you, first.

 

Maybe if you cheated on her too, that "negated" her cheating.

 

Who's to say what's right and wrong? Who's to judge? Certainly not me. I can't judge your wife as "wrong" for having had sex outside of your marital relationship, because I don't know what your mutual expectations were. I can't judge you as wrong, either, for what you did.

 

 

 

Personally I find the concept repulsive and would NEVER be able to tolerate it, but if it works for others so be it.

 

This sounds pretty judgmental to me.

 

 

 

There are many sets of behavior that I personally could not be involved in but others choose to.

 

Someone suggested in another thread that you were having some kind of an affair with another LS member. True? False? If true, can you please explain how you reconcile with your post here?

 

Once again if I missed the point of this thread I apologize, I'd go blind if I tried to read some of the soliloquizes in this thread...

 

In your own situation, didn't the fact that your wife had extra marital sex make it that much easier for you to justify doing the same thing, yourself?

 

Just like kidd and his wife, perhaps.

 

That's the "point" of the thread.

[Kidd]

I believe that cheating prior to marriage can be just as damaging to the long term relationship as cheating during the marriage. I don't think that's the way things unfolded in my situation. As many cheaters will grasp at anything to justify the affair, I would think I would have heard this justification by now. Of course, I don't classify my wife as most cheaters but I don't expect anyone to understand her as well as I. It also helps that she hasn't tried to justify he affair at all. Nor did I justify my own. I grant that my own infidelity could have been a precursor in some way. I have a new found regret for that mistake.

 

I believe that opening up the marriage to additional partners is incredibly dangerous and that one partner almost invariably is more into it or the other person than their spouse. Thankfully, for my wife and I, the concept was fantasy that we didn't engage and thankfully, she didn't engage in with the OM either.