RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 This thread is started to avoid a threadjack of another poster's thread and respect his wishes not to discuss any aspect of this topic in his thread. In another thread in the Infidelity section the OP, who was cheated on and is trying to save his marriage, finally disclosed after 300+ posts in the thread, that he had 1) also cheated on his wife, but before marriage and 2) during the marriage, discussed having threesomes with his wife. He also indicated that he had not entirely ruled out bringing a third person into the marriage at some point in the future. It was not clear whether their discussions had been about bringing in another man, another woman, or perhaps both/either. The poster explicitly requested that discussion on this topic in his thread be closed. The general topic is worthy of exploration while respecting the party's wishes not to discuss this issue in the context of his thread or his situation. That is, what is the implication or impact of discussions of "opening up the marriage," be it threesomes or perhaps swinging, much less actually going through with it, on the expectations of the parties to the marriage about what are and are not acceptable boundaries? Does it make it "easier" for a person to cheat if they and their spouse have discussed and contemplated being non-exclusive? Does discussing threesomes or otherwise opening up the marriage, even if it is never followed through, risk lowering the boundaries of exclusivity and make it easier for a spouse who becomes unhappy in the relationship to justify cheating? Also, does the mere discussion of non-exclusivity imply that one or both of the parties are not entirely happy in the relationship, and that the seeds for infidelity by one or the other, or both, may already be present, and growing?
YellowShark Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 (edited) I could never wrap my head around wanting to be married to someone but ALSO wanting multiple sexual partners. Seems odd to commit to one person but not wanting to commit to them sexually. IMHO if sex with your spouse is so dull that you need to bring in outside parties you really have to figure out why. Additionally, in my view, bringing in multiple sexual partners *also* opens up an extra STD component to worry about - (you don't know how many other people your swinging friends are banging and what they might have) - and swinging depersonalizes sex and de-romanticizes it by making partners interchangeable. Edited June 26, 2011 by YellowShark
Toodamnpragmatic Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 And have posted this numerous times before. Simply once the conversation is broached, so is pandora's box opened. You have made your intentions known. Regardless of whether you follow through with it, emotions can run high and simply unless both are open to the idea, and whether it works for you or not, it is a slippery slope and people's lives and opinions are bound to be tested and in many cases hurt.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 It seems to me if a man is married and suggests a threesome, that sends the following messages to his wife: If he wants the third person to be a man, maybe he simply doesn't value her that much, or has an out and out cuckold fetish; If he wants the third person to be a woman, again, it means he doesn't really value his wife all that much, or the relationship itself. I really don't understand people who complain about their spouses bringing additional people into the marriage--cheating--when bringing in additional people was something they had actively contemplated anyway. O.K. maybe if it was done behind the suggesting spouse's back, that wasn't according to the rules the suggesting spouse had in mind (mutual consent). By just having the conversation in the first place you are signaling to your spouse that exclusivity, both sexually and emotionally, isn't the most important thing in the world. You are also sending up red flags about whether you may be capable of sneaking around your spouse's back, too. Any problems develop in the marriage and bingo--it makes someone who might not otherwise be able to cross the cheating boundary, more able to justify doing so. But it's kind of ridiculous for a betrayed spouse to let a thread go hundreds of posts and pages and pages before casually mentioning "Oh by the way--we had discussed opening up the marriage prior to her affair/I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED that she could cheat on me in response to marital problems, she's not 'that kind' of a person"--if she's not "that kind" of a person why did you think it made any sense to suggest bringing another man or woman into your bed in the first place? Also rather amazing that having been cheated on, and attempting reconciliation, the betrayed spouse in question would still leave open the possibility of bringing a third person into the bedroom in the future, only expressing jealousy because the wayward spouse had discussed a threesome (not including the betrayed spouse of course) with her OM. You're still signaling that exclusivity and fidelity is just not that important, you're still signaling that you yourself might have a wandering eye. Where's the boundary? There is no boundary. If you top that off with having cheated yourself earlier in the relationship, why should there be any limitations at all on either spouse's sexual behavior? Just do what you want, when you want, with whom you want, because it really doesn't matter anyway.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 And have posted this numerous times before. Simply once the conversation is broached, so is pandora's box opened. You have made your intentions known. Regardless of whether you follow through with it, emotions can run high and simply unless both are open to the idea, and whether it works for you or not, it is a slippery slope and people's lives and opinions are bound to be tested and in many cases hurt. Yes I guess this is what I was getting at. As soon as you open the possibility, you are saying to the other spouse: "Exclusivity is not good enough for me. You are not enough for me." On the other side, the flip side, you are also planting the seed of doubt, since you don't want to be perceived as simply having a one-sided license. You are suggesting to your spouse that excuslivity with you is not or will not be good enough for her. The people who present these scenarios to their spouses, typically present the threesome or the opening of the bedroom as supposedly for both spouses' benefit. If I say to my wife, "Hey. Let's bring other people into the bedroom," I may think I am "pulling one over" on her. But I am also saying: "You should have an expectation of something and someone more than myself in your bed. I by myself are not enough for you to sustain a satisfactory sexual and emotional relationship."
Steadfast Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Many others have had positive experiences, and this situation has improved their life. Who can say for sure if your not into it. Maybe someone who has experience can enlighten us. Really? Many others? I'd be curious to find where your research indicated that. But true or not, please be careful what you write. We often forget the power our words hold and the influence they can have on others. No personal experience nor have I researched it extensively, but I am friends with a married couple in NYC who lived the lifestyle. They used the internet to locate groups then interacted personally to 'fine tune' their partners. Long and short, it nearly destroyed their marriage, but not for the reasons I initially suspected...like falling for another person. Instead, they reported to me that after awhile they became even more bored with *that* then they did their monogamous relationship, and deeply resented each other for 'messing up' a great friendship and marriage. In fact, I was told they never were sexually dissatisfied with each other. A classic example of fixing what isn't broken, the idea simply intensified their desire. She nearly filed after dating another woman, and he got an STD that was painful and expensive to treat. The aftereffects are lifelong. I was told the divorce/separation percentage was nearly 100%. The organizers of the various groups often joked it was the "last hurrah" for those attending, yet insured the curious non-members (read; potential $$) that the experience would enrich their marriage. According to my friends, the better they got to know the people they partied with, the worse the sad, morbid situation became. The best comparison I heard was drugs. When the thrill wears off, many look to a more powerful substance to restore the buzz. They didn't go into it, but it was clear they weren't interested in the next step. Naughty is fun and exciting to think about. The actual consequences are anything but.
YellowShark Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 ... I am friends with a married couple in NYC who lived the lifestyle. They used the internet to locate groups then interacted personally to 'fine tune' their partners.... ....and he got an STD that was painful and expensive to treat. The aftereffects are lifelong. ...Naughty is fun and exciting to think about. The actual consequences are anything but. That's the part that scares the $@&! out of me. The life-long STD penalty for a few minutes of sex. You *really* don't know who your "swinging" friends are swinging with. Hell, they probably don't either ESPECIALLY when one is trolling for them off the internet, or hooking up with them randomly at swingers clubs. NO THANKS!
crazycatlady Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Being open has nothing to do with cheating. Nor does it open the door to cheating. Our marriage is open. You are wrong about why its open, all of you. I'm not going to argue that with you. But our being open has nothing to do with the fact that he cheated. The cheating wasn't about sex. It also wasn't about being emotionally involved with someone else. It was a bit of mid life crisis, running away, hiding, internal conflict, she appealed to a side of him that in his words is evil and selfish. It was a fantasy to not have to face the problems in the real world. It was an escape that he would sink into when he was feeling overwhelmed by day to day life. And even if we hadn't been open, he would have cheated with her at that point of time. No doubt in my mind.
make me believe Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Yes I guess this is what I was getting at. As soon as you open the possibility, you are saying to the other spouse: "Exclusivity is not good enough for me. You are not enough for me." On the other side, the flip side, you are also planting the seed of doubt, since you don't want to be perceived as simply having a one-sided license. You are suggesting to your spouse that excuslivity with you is not or will not be good enough for her. The people who present these scenarios to their spouses, typically present the threesome or the opening of the bedroom as supposedly for both spouses' benefit. If I say to my wife, "Hey. Let's bring other people into the bedroom," I may think I am "pulling one over" on her. But I am also saying: "You should have an expectation of something and someone more than myself in your bed. I by myself are not enough for you to sustain a satisfactory sexual and emotional relationship." I agree with everything you've said in this thread, RM. Once you even suggest the idea of a threesome you've caused damage whether you go through with it or not. If my husband suggested we have a threesome or open our marriage, I would be shocked & devastated. And even if we never did it, and there was never any infidelity, it would stick with me. Once your spouse makes it known that he/she wants to bring another person into your marital bed, I don't think your marriage can ever be the same again. I know it wouldn't be for me, anyway.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 Being open has nothing to do with cheating. Both involve acceptance of non-exclusivity by at least one of the partners so they have quite a bit in common. Nor does it open the door to cheating. Our marriage is open. If your marriage is open then non-exclusivity is approved. Exclusivity is a major boundary which no longer exists in your relationship. You are wrong about why its open, all of you. No one in this thread made any comments about your relationship at all, except you. This thread was started with the intention of being a general discussion topic to avoid the sort of denial that occurs when people are so defensive about what is going on in their own relationship that they project whatever specifics might be happening in their relationship out to the whole world. If you want to use your own relationship in this thread as a basis to try to contest the general point being made by others (that an open marriage can make it easier for cheating to occur), by all means feel free to do so. But if so don't get defensive about it. I'm not going to argue that with you. But our being open has nothing to do with the fact that he cheated. His lack of boundaries allowed him to cheat and also made it acceptable for him to have an otherwise non-exclusive relationship with you. In a word he thinks it's O.K. to have more than one sexual partner. All his cheating means is he forgot to get your permission that time. The cheating wasn't about sex. Having sex with someone other than the primary relationship IS "cheating." (Unless he had your permission to have sex with that person, which I guess he didn't.) It also wasn't about being emotionally involved with someone else. People can have sex, which is cheating, and not get emotionally involved. If a person cheats repeatedly and has sex repeatedly with a third person, frequently emotional connections develop, too. We don't know enough details about your situation to be able to judge one way or the other. It was a bit of mid life crisis, running away, hiding, internal conflict, she appealed to a side of him that in his words is evil and selfish. This really has nothing to do with the discussion topic; now you're just trying to minimize and justify the cheating that occurred in your own relationship. That really wasn't the point of this thread. It was a fantasy to not have to face the problems in the real world. It was an escape that he would sink into when he was feeling overwhelmed by day to day life. And even if we hadn't been open, he would have cheated with her at that point of time. No doubt in my mind. O.K. I think I read somewhere else that he cheated with your own sister. If I'm correct what more proof do you need that the issue is lack of boundaries?
crazycatlady Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Both involve acceptance of non-exclusivity by at least one of the partners so they have quite a bit in common. Being honest and open about it is not the same as going behind someone else's back If your marriage is open then non-exclusivity is approved. Exclusivity is a major boundary which no longer exists in your relationship. true No one in this thread made any comments about your relationship at all, except you. This thread was started with the intention of being a general discussion topic to avoid the sort of denial that occurs when people are so defensive about what is going on in their own relationship that they project whatever specifics might be happening in their relationship out to the whole world. It was asserted that open marriages don't work. And they always lead to cheating. And why marriages open in the first place. Don't make blanket statements. By making those statements you were saying it was the case for us. Which its not. I don't disagree for some that is what it is. Especially the whole add spice to the marriage people, which is a blanket statement on my part and I'm sure there are open marriages which that is the reason and they would disagree with me and I would expect it. Don't take my disagreement with your statement personally. If you want to use your own relationship in this thread as a basis to try to contest the general point being made by others (that an open marriage can make it easier for cheating to occur), by all means feel free to do so. But if so don't get defensive about it. Not defensive, just disagreeing. His lack of boundaries allowed him to cheat and also made it acceptable for him to have an otherwise non-exclusive relationship with you. In a word he thinks it's O.K. to have more than one sexual partner. All his cheating means is he forgot to get your permission that time. His selfishness allowed him to cheat. His cheating wasn't about permission or lack of it. His cheating was about something inside of him not being right. Having sex with someone other than the primary relationship IS "cheating." (Unless he had your permission to have sex with that person, which I guess he didn't.) The sex was a symptom not the problem People can have sex, which is cheating, and not get emotionally involved. If a person cheats repeatedly and has sex repeatedly with a third person, frequently emotional connections develop, too. We don't know enough details about your situation to be able to judge one way or the other. It wasn't sex it wasn't even the emotions, it was the hiding, the lying, the using it as an escape from real life This really has nothing to do with the discussion topic; now you're just trying to minimize and justify the cheating that occurred in your own relationship. That really wasn't the point of this thread. The point of this thread was being open leads to cheating. I'm disputing that from an actual position of experience. After all look at all the cheating in non open relationships....most of it was for reasons I mentioned on why he did it. O.K. I think I read somewhere else that he cheated with your own sister. If I'm correct what more proof do you need that the issue is lack of boundaries? My answers in bold. Not saying its not lack of boundries but those are boundaries inside him that are missing. Not from an open marriage. Also, my sister lacks those same boundaries. She has cheated (well been the OW) on many occasions. She is a serial OW and gets off on the position. Something is wrong inside her. But that's her issue.
crazycatlady Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 From your recent threads and posts, it honestly seems you get off on your husband's cheating. She's not the only one with issues here... His cheating ended over a year ago. I won't deny however that I enjoy our open marriage. I enjoy seeing him with other women, I enjoy sharing other women with him. That believe it or not is very much a different ball game all together. She on the other hand actually enjoys the hurt that it causes. Both the hurt she feels repeatedly, the hurt she gives the BS and the WS. That is part of what makes it attractive though she is trying to change that aspect of her personality I doubt she can. Its also why cheating is not about the sex. Nor is it about the emotions. Cheating can take on many forms. Its about running away from marriage; be it with another person, a bottle, sports, gambling, etc. Its a form of escape. Or power. Depending on who it is. For some people, its a way to discover who they really are. Others its to escape who they really are. To be someone else. In another's eyes.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 I enjoy seeing him with other women, I enjoy sharing other women with him. Stock·holm syndrome noun \ˈstäk-ˌhō(l)m-\ Definition of STOCKHOLM SYNDROME : the psychological tendency of a hostage to bond with, identify with, or sympathize with his or her captor
denise_xo Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Stock·holm syndrome noun \ˈstäk-ˌhō(l)m-\ Definition of STOCKHOLM SYNDROME : the psychological tendency of a hostage to bond with, identify with, or sympathize with his or her captor Nah, I don't see the link there.
Spark1111 Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 I think it is a common and titilating fantasy; perhaps exciting for some to discuss and often a disaster to realistically execute without long term consequences. Couples can talk of many things to spice up their sex life, even with some certainty as to having a future experience of it.....the maybe, some day we should try this, if we're both interested. Wink, wink. But I do not believe many execute the fantasy without entering a realm of emotions they never expected; jealousy, lowering self-esteem, and what they thought would be "hot" should have remained exactly that: a fantasy. I also believe it is a common fantasy for men to want to be with two women. Some women may go along with it and since they are not emotionally involved, they do not feel it risks the primary relationship between them and their man. Much more problematic is when the wife decides, okay, I've done it your way. Now I want to try you and another man and the H freaks out. Very few can stand to visualize their woman with another man, let alone touched with H in the room to participate. Too hard. Plus, it is well documented that people in affairs willingly do sexual acts they may not have ever wanted to do with the spouse because they just did whatever was necessary to keep those feel good hormones and constant adoration flowing towards them. To ACT on the fantasy could open up a Pandora's Box of future infidelities. To talk of the possibility? No, not so much IMO. And if I remember correctly, it was her fantasy, not his. But I do not intend to discuss it as I think it may violate TOS to do so.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 Having sex with a third person contradicts the very concept of a "committed" relationship. Sure if it's just a casual relationship, go ahead, experiment. (I don't see how that will ever lead to a stronger primary relationship though.) "Say honey it's Tuesday night, time for my weekly side-f*ck with the neighbor lady." "Why O.K. have a good time, I'll stay home and watch NetFlix." Yeah that's commitment alright.
denise_xo Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Having sex with a third person contradicts the very concept of a "committed" relationship. Sure if it's just a casual relationship, go ahead, experiment. (I don't see how that will ever lead to a stronger primary relationship though.) "Say honey it's Tuesday night, time for my weekly side-f*ck with the neighbor lady." "Why O.K. have a good time, I'll stay home and watch NetFlix." Yeah that's commitment alright. Polygamy is pretty common across the world and historically. It's not something I would want to engage in, but I accept that some people want to arrange their lives in ways that wouldn't suit me personally. If CCL tells me that her M works for her that way, I believe her because it is HER marriage. Further, I don't agree with your definition of commitment. Commitment doesn't have to involve one on one exclusivity. I think most men who have several wives, for example, would deny pretty strongly that they are not 'committed' to them. I also think that people who have open marriages from the outset, or at least are open to the idea, are very different from the 'I've met someone else so now I'd like to open up our marriage' scenarios that we sometimes see here.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 of Polyamory.... Not one has returned here extoling the virtues and how great it has all worked out.... Coincidence????? As for CCL, while Stockholm Syndrome maybe somewhat extreme, the fact of the matter is that knowing her situation and how she chose to handle it, I for one can't take anything she says very seriously.... And if anyone needs to ask, the word Sister is enough for me to make an immediate judgment...
Author RepairMinded Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 Polygamy is pretty common across the world and historically. So is infanticide. What of it? I don't see crazycatlady, for one, equating "open marriage" with "polygamy." "Polygamy" implies a legal, social, or emotional committment, or all three, of one man to more than one woman, simultaneously. Crazycatlady seems to believe that "open marriage" is just sex with no such commitment to the "extra" people.
Steadfast Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Its also why cheating is not about the sex. Nor is it about the emotions. Cheating can take on many forms. Its about running away from marriage; be it with another person, a bottle, sports, gambling, etc. Its a form of escape. Or power. Depending on who it is. For some people, its a way to discover who they really are. Others its to escape who they really are. To be someone else. In another's eyes. That's a compelling argument catlady. On the surface you present many truths that seem plausible, but broken down it falls apart. IMO. Realizing your right of opinion, in my opinion just because people can desensitize and separate emotion from the sexual act, many (if not most) are still helpless to deal with the aftereffects of it. In other words, while it's pointless to try and change your mind about sexual tendencies (and even if I could, I wouldn't) when we turn sex from an act of love into something else, we're opening a can of worms. Justification doesn't make it right. My wife was sexually unfaithful, continued to be sexually unfaithful, and when I was certain there was no relationship left to save, I moved on. Only she can explain her side of it. Frankly, I've given up trying to figure out what she wanted, but I can say that after great introspection, the actual sex she had with others paled when compared to the other issues our marriage faced. Just the same, her actions hurt...the 'act' being the (ultimate?) manifestation/example of her feelings toward me and our relationship. It was personal, it was abusive and if your trying to tell me that placing another person between us is the same as wedging a bottle, a vice, or passion/hobby into our marriage is the same, then I really have to question your position on the whole matter. That's painting the scene with a pretty wide brush. I'm not buying it.
crazycatlady Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Polygamy is pretty common across the world and historically. It's not something I would want to engage in, but I accept that some people want to arrange their lives in ways that wouldn't suit me personally. If CCL tells me that her M works for her that way, I believe her because it is HER marriage. Further, I don't agree with your definition of commitment. Commitment doesn't have to involve one on one exclusivity. I think most men who have several wives, for example, would deny pretty strongly that they are not 'committed' to them. I also think that people who have open marriages from the outset, or at least are open to the idea, are very different from the 'I've met someone else so now I'd like to open up our marriage' scenarios that we sometimes see here. We had talked about being open from the outset, though didn't decide to do it until 8 or so years in. And it wasn't due to any other person. And I do agree with your last paragraph as well. The marriage works. The problems that led him to cheating, I'm not 100% sure he has overcome them, I think they were the same issues that lead to earlier issues in our marriage which were completely unrelated to physical cheating. Its hard to talk about it because he just keeps saying he's sorry focuses on the cheating....and not on the why of the cheating. But its a well a flaw in him that he is going to have to deal with. Guess I will too if he doesn't deal with it himself. I don't expect the cheating to happen again. But I do wonder what the next escape will be if he doesn't figure out what it is. But all of us are flawed and we all have issues to deal with, some of us deal better then others, and sometimes the dealing with the flaws are better then other times. But that is the problem and the cause of his cheating, not the fact that we are open. of Polyamory.... Not one has returned here extoling the virtues and how great it has all worked out.... Coincidence????? As for CCL, while Stockholm Syndrome maybe somewhat extreme, the fact of the matter is that knowing her situation and how she chose to handle it, I for one can't take anything she says very seriously.... And if anyone needs to ask, the word Sister is enough for me to make an immediate judgment... Then if you will not talk with me, or address the points that I make, will you please refrain from using my name? Put me on ignore, thank you. I didn't address you personally in my initial post and was simply responding to the topic because I happened to disagree with the premise behind it. So is infanticide. What of it? I don't see crazycatlady, for one, equating "open marriage" with "polygamy." "Polygamy" implies a legal, social, or emotional committment, or all three, of one man to more than one woman, simultaneously. Crazycatlady seems to believe that "open marriage" is just sex with no such commitment to the "extra" people. An open marriage is what the married couple makes of it. And that can be fluid and change with time. Polygamy is about emotional relationships beyond two people. And that can be fluid and change with time. As for which I believe in? What ever a couple decides for themselves. As for what we are? Both, its just the second is harder to achieve then the first. But none of that has anything to do with the subject of this thread. That was simply the idea that opening up a marriage weakens it to cheating. And it doesn't. A flaw in the marriage, a flaw in the person who cheats is what causes cheating. Cheating is a symptom of something else, not the cause. Often time opening up the marriage is done as some last ditch attempt to spark some life into a failing marriage. That is why it seems opening up ruins the marriage. But again, the marriage was flawed in the first place. Not the other way around.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 27, 2011 Author Posted June 27, 2011 That was simply the idea that opening up a marriage weakens it to cheating. And it doesn't.According to you, you discussed opening up the marriage long before your husband cheated. That is exactly what the point of the thread is. By entertaining the idea of an open marriage, you were telling your husband that you didn't hold exclusivity as a meaningful value in your relationship--you removed that particular boundary. Making it all the more easy for him to justify cheating at a later point. Which is exactly what happened--he cheated with your sister. And you responded to that catastrophe by acquiescing to him basically getting to have sex with any woman he pleases. All he has to do is give lip service to a lack of emotional involvement or whatever he thinks he needs to say to allow you to justify it to yourself.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 27, 2011 Author Posted June 27, 2011 We had talked about being open from the outset, though didn't decide to do it until 8 or so years in. And he cheated with your sister anyway. By the way--just what is it about him having sex with your sister that bothers you? Why does it matter who he has sex with? And it wasn't due to any other person. And I do agree with your last paragraph as well. It had to be due to something, but you don't seem to know what that something is. Even after all this time, and despite essentially claiming to know everything about marriages, cheating, and open relationships. You know about everything except what makes your own husband "tick." The marriage works. You really think so? Try telling your husband you're not OK with an open marriage any longer and see how long it "works." The problems that led him to cheating, I'm not 100% sure he has overcome them, I think they were the same issues that lead to earlier issues in our marriage which were completely unrelated to physical cheating. Maybe the problems are simply that you're married to someone who is dishonest, selfish, and lacks integrity. You know, the kind of man who could cheat on his wife with her own sister. In my book cheating on your spouse with the spouse's sibling is just about as low on the spectrum of cheating as a person can get. That's like intentionally stabbing a knife in your back. Its hard to talk about it because he just keeps saying he's sorry focuses on the cheating....and not on the why of the cheating. He's not "focusing" on what you want him to "focus" on because he doesn't have to. Your response to his cheating with your sister is to let him have sex with other women. The "why" of the cheating is probably simply because he's selfish and you don't impose any real consequences for it. The "why" is: "because he feels like it." But its a well a flaw in him that he is going to have to deal with. He has dealt with it--he gets to have sex with women other than his wife with his wife's approval. He ignores her repeated requests to delve deeper into the psychology of what he is doing. He just doesn't care. He is getting sex with multiple women. What could be better, for him, that is? Indeed he even has a wife who is in such a high level of denial that she makes it her mission to justify his selfish behavior to the entire world. Guess I will too if he doesn't deal with it himself. No you won't. You are way too invested in insisting that you didn't make a huge mistake in marrying this guy in the first place, and then staying married to him after he cheated on you with your sister. He has been doing this a long long time and you have been letting him do it. Nothing in your relationship will change until YOU--not HE--changes. He is completely satisfied with exactly the way he is, right now. He is getting exactly what he wants. If YOU are dissatisfied with some aspect of your relationship, it is up to YOU to make changes in YOURSELF. I don't expect the cheating to happen again. But I do wonder what the next escape will be if he doesn't figure out what it is. So you already know that he will screw up again, but you hope it won't involve "cheating." Of course by agreeing to open marriage you certainly lessen the odds of "cheating" occurring (him having sex with others without telling you about it), but not the odds of him having sex with others. As long as you agree that he can have sex with others, he will continue to do so, and you will continue to wonder why you're not satisfied with this relationship. That will only change when it becomes unacceptable to YOU. But all of us are flawed and we all have issues to deal with, some of us deal better then others, and sometimes the dealing with the flaws are better then other times. But that is the problem and the cause of his cheating, not the fact that we are open. The cause of his cheating is he is selfish. You are "open" because you don't want to set boundaries on his behavior which would require you to end the marriage if he should violate those boundaries. You don't have sufficient self-esteem to demand better from your partner. Then if you will not talk with me, or address the points that I make, will you please refrain from using my name? Put me on ignore, thank you. I didn't address you personally in my initial post and was simply responding to the topic because I happened to disagree with the premise behind it. Your relationship is a perfect example of the premise behind it. An open marriage is what the married couple makes of it. And that can be fluid and change with time. That's a moving target. As I said, you have no boundaries, and this definition of "open marriage" is just more proof of it. In actuality your husband can get away with anything he likes and you won't do anything about it. He could probably even resume his affair with your sister and you would impose no consequences. Polygamy is about emotional relationships beyond two people. And that can be fluid and change with time. No, "polygamy" actually means a formal state of being married to more than one other person, whatever the definition of being married happens to be in the particular polygamous society. It doesn't mean "anything crazycatlady says it is". As for which I believe in? What ever a couple decides for themselves. As for what we are? Both, its just the second is harder to achieve then the first. You have no boundaries. Every single answer you give is a non-specific avoidance of boundaries. Why should your spouse adhere to any relationship boundaries if you are unwilling to even state what you think they should be? But none of that has anything to do with the subject of this thread. That was simply the idea that opening up a marriage weakens it to cheating. And it doesn't. It's precisely what happened in your marriage, though. A flaw in the marriage, a flaw in the person who cheats is what causes cheating. Cheating is a symptom of something else, not the cause. Right. A flaw in the marriage, being a lack of firm boundaries, as expressed by the willingness to entertain the notion of an open marriage (non-exclusivity). Like yours. Often time opening up the marriage is done as some last ditch attempt to spark some life into a failing marriage. That is why it seems opening up ruins the marriage. But again, the marriage was flawed in the first place. Not the other way around. That's like saying when someone has cancer it's a symptom of illness, but the illness didn't cause the cancer.
Chi townD Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 All I have to say on the subject that if a couple opens up their marriage or goes into the swinging lifestyle, the marriage isn't going last that much longer. Very few marriages survive this. I'm not saying ALL, but a lot don't last. Someone always ends up getting hurt.
Author RepairMinded Posted June 27, 2011 Author Posted June 27, 2011 All I have to say on the subject that if a couple opens up their marriage or goes into the swinging lifestyle, the marriage isn't going last that much longer. Very few marriages survive this. I'm not saying ALL, but a lot don't last. Someone always ends up getting hurt. The desire to have sex with people outside of the relationship says, as clear as day, that your partner simply isn't good enough for you, by his or herself. It says you think it's OK to devote a significant portion of your sexual, social, and emotional energy outside of your relationship. It's absolutely absurd for someone such as crazycatlady to claim that there is no emotional component to sex outside of the marriage. If there wasn't any emotional component she wouldn't care that her husband had sex with her sister. She hates her sister and this is obvious from the vicious way she characterizes her sister in this thread. She doesn't perceive that her sister is most likely a pretty good mirror of her own behavior. Her sister is "OW this" and "OW that." No, crazy cat lady, your sister didn't do anything wrong by having an affair with your husband. She just has different boundaries of acceptable behavior than you do. To your sister having sex with a married man without his spouse's permission is acceptable conduct. Your opinion of what is acceptable is no more worthy than hers is. The only difference between you and your sister is that she doesn't think she has any obligation to get your permission before having sex with your husband. Like you said, it's "fluid" and she can live her life anyway she wants. I'm not sure why you think you have any moral high ground on your sister.
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