Denial in "Betrayed Spouses"

[John Michael Kane]

You need to learn how to distinguish a fact from YOUR OPINION.

 

So do YOU.

[PhoenixRise]

Well you should come read more.

 

 

 

It's not an assumption, it's a fact: BSs who stay after a considerable amount of abuse from their cheating spouse, and then try to convince others who left are bitter, shows the denial they're in.

 

 

I read here often enough.

 

Unless you are aware of all the in's and out's of daily life of a married couple who reconciled, unless you are aware of the relationship dynamics of all the BS who reconciled then you ARE assuming it is as you have described.

 

For you to call what you say a fact is pretty laughable.

 

If people call you bitter, did it ever occur to you that maybe they are not calling you this for the reasons you think they are? Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you left.

[Owl]

No I'm not.

 

Yes, you are.

 

You just refuse to see it.

 

Here you said you participate in threads where the OP is looking to decide, and insist on reconciliation. You just said you do not insist on reconciliation, you tell them to pick a choice. Which is it?

 

Again, word twisting. I said that I tell posters who haven't decided to pick a goal. IF they choose reconciliation, I continue to participate. If they choose divorce, that's outside of my experience.

 

The first step is making a choice.

[Owl]

So do YOU.

 

Don't think so.

 

I've never claimed that my opinions are fact.

 

You however, are insistent that things that are YOUR OPINIONS are fact. You seem unable to differentiate.

[John Michael Kane]

I read here often enough.

 

Unless you are aware of all the in's and out's of daily life of a married couple who reconciled, unless you are aware of the relationship dynamics of all the BS who reconciled then you ARE assuming it is as you have described.

 

No assumption. All fact.

 

For you to call what you say a fact is pretty laughable.

 

For you to call what you say is assumption is pretty funny.

 

Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you left.

 

Exactly. It has everything to do with the fact that they stayed, and are sad and mad about it.

[John Michael Kane]

Yes, you are.

 

You just refuse to see it.

 

No I'm not, you refuse to see it.

 

Again, word twisting. I said that I tell posters who haven't decided to pick a goal. IF they choose reconciliation, I continue to participate. If they choose divorce, that's outside of my experience.

 

The first step is making a choice.

 

But you just said you insist on reconciliation whether it be they're undecided or already chose reconciliation.

 

Those who choose to divorce should not be ignored. That's unfair to those who come here seeking that particular advice.

[John Michael Kane]

Don't think so.

 

Yup think so.

 

I've never claimed that my opinions are fact.

 

Yet in another thread you claimed your assumption of me is the pure definition of denial.

 

You however, are insistent that things that are YOUR OPINIONS are fact. You seem unable to differentiate.

 

The same can be said for you.

[reboot]

JMK, I'm rubber and you're glue.....

[RepairMinded]

What's interesting about this is that you'll note that none of the BS's who have reconciled their marriages are insistent that this is the only option, as you make it sound in your opening post.

 

Maybe not, but folks such as yourself, and others claiming to be among the "reconciled," are generally counseling people that reconciliation is a generally "viable" option.

 

Sorry, but that's simply not realistic. It's much more realistic to tell anyone who wants to reconcile that for the vast majority it is probably a huge waste of time and effort and heartache. It's a longshot at best.

 

I'm all for taking a longshot under appropriate circumstances but why pretend that it's anything except a longshot?

 

For reconciliation to have any real chance, long term, the wayward spouse has to be immediately, completely, and 100% remorseful. "Something" has to occur in the WS's psyche by which they are capable of completely overhauling their personalities. (silktricks came close to suggesting this by stating that she and her 2nd husband pretty much had to totally overhaul their marriage. Not quite the same thing, but close enough I guess for now)

 

Most WSs are simply not capable of doing this work, certainly not without years of effort.

 

Not only are most WSs NOT able or willing to do this kind of work; it seems like a majority of those who post at LS (thus giving us some insight into the inner workings of the "wayward mind") have trouble acknowledging that what they did by cheating is even very "wrong" in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've NEVER insisted that someone must reconcile their marriage.

 

No but you insist that YOU are reconciled and that your personal relationship model should be a pattern to emulate for those who do wish to try to reconcile.

 

I disagree. For one thing, my understanding from looking at some of your huge posting history is that your wife never actually had sex with her OM. So why would you constantly use your own situation as some kind of example for people like kidd whose spouse repeatedly had sex with the OM? Your situation has almost zero applicability except maybe to a BS whose WS was involved only in an Emotional Affair.

 

 

 

My approach has always been to support them in whichever choice they make.

 

This approach in itself suggests that you are not giving generally good advice because if they are making poor choices, supporting those choices doesn't actually help those people, it hurts them. Support of poor choices is facilitating their mistakes.

 

If someone is having wish-fulfillment and thinks they can reconcile with an unrepentant cheating spouse I am not going to "support" them in that effort. I am going to tell them it is a complete waste of time.

 

 

The problem that comes into play here is when others INSIST that theirs is the "one true way", and insist without any actual first hand experience that a marriage cannot recover and that the only possible option is to immediately divorce.

 

Why is it a problem? No one is obligated to follow anyone else's advice. But the point is for MOST people, MOST of the time, true reconciliation is a huge longshot. Telling people not to bother trying is therefore a logical position even if you disagree with it.

 

Let's say you believe there is a 20% chance of reconciliation overall (this is probably higher than the actual percentage). In any other area of life if the odds are 80% against success you would have to advise the person not to fight those kinds of odds. Yes they may be part of the 20% but there's no way of knowing, and frankly, the 20% are skewed heavily towards unusual situations--like your own, where your wife didn't actually have sex with her OM. You can't base the general advice and opinions on the 20%, it has to be based on the 80%.

 

 

 

 

 

The insistence that someone cannot possibly recover a marriage based off your own inability to heal is misguided at best, and downright insulting to those that have successfully done so.

 

It has nothing to do with the inability to heal (whatever that means) of the person giving the advice. So what if I can't "heal." If the odds are 80% against successful reconciliation then my ability or inability to heal doesn't change those odds one bit. It just means I am part of the 80% not part of the 20%.

 

The insistence that those that do stay and reconcile are somehow mentally ill or deluded equally so.

 

JMK emphasized "denial" which is not mental illness or delusion but rather a common psychological defense mechanism. Very common.

 

You know--like where the betrayed spouse has falsely persuaded himself that he might as well reconcile with his wayward spouse because everyone else in the world is just as likely to cheat in the future, as the wife who already cheated on him.

 

Or, maybe it's like the woman who was cheated on by her first husband; then cheated on by her second husband; but now is absolutely certain that her second husband could NEVER EVER cheat on her ever again, under any circumstances?

 

I certainly don't think it's "denial" or "bitterness" to acknowledge that in general, making a bet on a 4-1 shot of success is a losing proposition.

 

 

 

 

 

Divorce is an option.

 

For most people not only is it "an option," but their best hope of a successful reconciliation is actually putting divorce "on the table" as a consequence of their spouse's having cheated. Any betrayed spouse who is unwilling to at least seriously consider dropping the divorce hammer, and making that willingness very clear to the WS, is engaging in a kind of denial or wishful thinking which actually hurts the chances of reconciliation.

 

Many of the betrayed spouses coming here are terrified of the idea of divorce and their ws's know it and take advantage of it. The betrayed spouse cannot be afraid of getting divorced and should actually do everything they can to make that a "real" option.

 

 

 

Reconciliation is often also an option as well, even if you personally don't like it or don't agree.

 

You are trying to make this issue "personal" when it's not. Reconciliation is very unlikely. That's not personal, that's just a fact. People should not be misled to believe otherwise.

 

 

 

Trying to force others to believe that your path is the only path is acceptable, but giving advice to someone who seeks to reconcile their marriage (THEIR choice, not mine) is an example of denial?

 

I think not.

 

Didn't you yourself immediately put divorce on the table and that was the only thing that kept your wife from going to see the OM and have sex with him?

 

Good for you, it worked. But don't pretend after the fact that you didn't fully intend to divorce your wife had she actually had sex with her OM.

[Owl]

Those who choose to divorce should not be ignored. That's unfair to those who come here seeking that particular advice.

 

You're right. But how foolish would it be for me to try to tell someone about divorce when I've never been through that process?

 

That would be like you trying to walk someone through marital reconciliation.

 

I participate in the reconciliation threads, I participate in threads where the goal hasn't been decided, and I will leave the threads where divorce is decided for people with experience in such matters to post in.

 

Have you considered that you might take a simlar tack? If you see that they've decided to reconcile...realize it's outside of your knowledge base and leave those threads for those that have done so? Participate in the ones where they've either chosen to divorce or are still trying to decide?

[John Michael Kane]

JMK, I'm rubber and you're glue.....

 

Thanks man. I like being glue, if that was meant as a jab at me.

[PhoenixRise]

No assumption. All fact.

 

 

 

For you to call what you say is assumption is pretty funny.

 

 

 

Exactly. It has everything to do with the fact that they stayed, and are sad and mad about it.

 

Owl is right. You DO need to learn to differentiate between assumption and fact. Until you learn that just because you think something that doesn't make it a fact, discussing anything with you is pretty pointless.

[Owl]

Repairminded...there's no way I'm sorting through those soliloquies you post.

 

Bottom line...feel free to disagree with me anytime. I'm OK with that.

 

But don't try to discredit my advice, or insult me by insinuating that I'm somehow "wrong" for reconciling my marriage.

 

I've taken offense to a few posts here recently and will up front apologize to you and/or JMK for insinuating that those that don't reconcile are somehow 'wrong' or 'inferior' for not doing so.

 

But again...I respect everyone's right to post their views and opinions, and try hard not to undermine their credibility or right to post...and I will insist on the same rights, as provided by the LS TOS.

 

With that said, I'm done with this thread lest we all get infracted.

[John Michael Kane]

You're right. But how foolish would it be for me to try to tell someone about divorce when I've never been through that process?

 

No it would not, because you've been cheated on.

 

That would be like you trying to walk someone through marital reconciliation.

 

I do. And I do it with grace, by telling them the hard cold truth.

 

I participate in the reconciliation threads, I participate in threads where the goal hasn't been decided, and I will leave the threads where divorce is decided for people with experience in such matters to post in.

 

So you admit to insisting on reconciliation, even when you say you don't. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Have you considered that you might take a simlar tack? If you see that they've decided to reconcile...realize it's outside of your knowledge base and leave those threads for those that have done so? Participate in the ones where they've either chosen to divorce or are still trying to decide?

 

No I will participate in every thread I wish to participate in, especially the betrayed spouses' threads. Because they need to know what they're up against, and it's nothing pretty. And this is a public board so...

[John Michael Kane]

Owl is right. You DO need to learn to differentiate between assumption and fact.

 

No YOU DO.

 

Until you learn that just because you think something that doesn't make it a fact, discussing anything with you is pretty pointless.

 

Right so no discussion because one doesn't agree with staying in miserable marriages and living in complete denial. Great.

[rafallus]

I was right, a regular war. It would be best served to lock this ****.

[Owl]

How in the heck does this:

 

I participate in the reconciliation threads, I participate in threads where the goal hasn't been decided, and I will leave the threads where divorce is decided for people with experience in such matters to post in.

 

In ANYWAY lead to this conclusion????????????????????? :

 

So you admit to insisting on reconciliation, even when you say you don't. Thanks for clarifying.

[John Michael Kane]

How in the heck does this:

 

 

 

In ANYWAY lead to this conclusion????????????????????? :

 

Oh god Owl. You said it end of story.

[PhoenixRise]

No YOU DO.

 

 

 

Right so no discussion because one doesn't agree with staying in miserable marriages and living in complete denial. Great.

 

Just to be clear.

 

This is not in any way shape or form what I said.

[John Michael Kane]

Just to be clear.

 

This is not in any way shape or form what I said.

 

But yet you refuse to debate because of my point of view combined with facts.

[PhoenixRise]

But yet you refuse to debate because of my point of view combined with facts.

 

 

So far You have offered no facts.

 

But have fun with your "debate"

[What_Next]

Wow, like this wasn't going to turn into a trainwreck right from the word GO. All aboard. Thank heavens his posts don't appear to me due to the magic of an ignore list.

 

Yikes.

[2sure]

Love the ignore list, but I do wish people wouldnt quote those posters because then....we could all have the discussions we normally do without the thread killers.

[RepairMinded]

Repairminded...there's no way I'm sorting through those soliloquies you post.

 

Good for you.

 

 

Bottom line...feel free to disagree with me anytime. I'm OK with that.

 

 

Good for you.

 

 

But don't try to discredit my advice, or insult me by insinuating that I'm somehow "wrong" for reconciling my marriage.

 

No one insulted you. Either for "reconciling" your marriage, assuming that's an accurate characterization of the state of your marriage; nor for anything else.

 

If your advice is discredited it is because it is not good advice. On the one hand, you claim that you stay out of threads where your own personal experience is not relevant--such as divorce situations. On the other hand, you have absolutely no personal experience with dealing with sexual infidelity on the part of your spouse, yet by far most of the people seeking advice here, certainly the most "serious" cases of infidelity, have to confront with sexual not just emotional infidelity on the part of their spouse.

 

By your own standards, you should probably not be posting in any threads where people are seeking advice due to the sexual infidelity of their spouses--for exactly the same reason you claim not to post in divorce oriented threads.

 

Also I didn't say you were "wrong" for reconciling your marriage--I said that in my opinion it doesn't appear as if you actually have accomplished a full, successful reconciliation.

 

Compare and contrast your situation with silktricks, who has NO DOUBT that her spouse is NOT any longer capable of cheating. Assuming you believe silktricks's the accuracy evaluation of her husband's recovery from infidelity, it seems to me she & her spouse are much further along that road than are you.

 

I'm not sure why you would claim to be "successfully recovered" when you openly acknowledge that you believe your wife remains capable of cheating on you in the future, under the right circumstances.

 

It's no answer to that question to falsely state that "everyone else" is just as likely to cheat as your wife is, because that statement is completely false on your part. Silktricks certainly doesn't believe HER spouse is capable of it. Like I said before--and you can continue to pretend not to have read it--if you want your advice to betrayed spouses who are trying to recover their marriages from sexual infidelity, of which you have zero personal experience, to have credibility then you need to explain this discrepancy between your version of "reconciliation" and silktricks'. BOTH of you cannot be right about this. It is possible for both of you to be wrong, but it is not possible for both of you to be right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've taken offense to a few posts here recently and will up front apologize to you and/or JMK for insinuating that those that don't reconcile are somehow 'wrong' or 'inferior' for not doing so.

 

I am not responsible for what you arbitrarily choose to be offended by. Nothing I have posted could possibly be considered offensive by any reasonable person within the context of the discussion we are having.

 

 

But again...I respect everyone's right to post their views and opinions, and try hard not to undermine their credibility or right to post...and I will insist on the same rights, as provided by the LS TOS.

 

With that said, I'm done with this thread lest we all get infracted.

 

You are the one who suggested that this thread be started because you couldn't answer some of the related questions raised in kidd's thread after you had effectively thread jacked it. JMK "called your bluff," started the new thread that you basically suggested be started, and now you are again leaving the discussion, without answering the pertinent questions.

 

That's your right but it's not appropriate for this thread to be locked just because you made assertions in a discussion thread that you are having difficulty backing up.

[John Michael Kane]

So far You have offered no facts.

 

But have fun with your "debate"

 

I have offered plenty of facts. They're all over this site.

 

The How to stay sane while wife is making decision? thread is a prime example.

 

1,484 posts AND COUNTING.

 

Every day he's here talking about how his spouse is abusing him in some kind of way, not to mention she's still cheating. Practically EVERYONE on LS gave him some kind of advice, telling him to just leave her, yet he refuses to do it, after months and months of abuse. You'd think he was training to be a Delta Force operator.