IfWishesWereHorses Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 WHAT?! Come on, is this for real? What world do you live in? Gas Gauge - Full tank (Black), empty tank (white), everything in between? GRAY. Thermometers - Hot (Black), Cold (white), everything in between? GRAY. Market price - High (Black), Low (white), everything in between? GRAY. Darlin', I hate to point it out to you but the world is FULL OF GRAY. Yes, for real! And I would bet my last dollar that I live in the same "world" that everyone else on this planet. There is no gray on my gas gauge, thermometer, the measurements are clearly marked and accurate! Everything in-between is not gray but an absolute. In my profession people would die if information was gray rather than exact/absolute. Gray is ambiguous and I completely understand WHY many people need it in their life but nothing will change until someone steps up to the plate and inserts an absolute.
26pointblue Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 The topic brought up was things being BLACK & WHITE. It was not talking about traffic lights. I'm not saying your statement isn't valid but my point is: life is full of grays. And the examples given were incorrect. Yeah life can be full of grays but the point is whether we choose to live that way or not & what the consequences to ourselves & others will be. I don't understand the disagreement. Guess I'll go play in some traffic now since to the rest of the world the light says don't walk but to me it looks kinda gray. Ha ha just kidding. Have a good day.
Angelina527 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) I didn't say MM doesn't love his W. I said he doesn't love her "enough" to STOP the A. There's a difference. I cannot believe a 100% happy man, desparately in love with his W, cherishing the life he has with her because it was everything he ever dreamed of, would jepordize such happiness, love and life in any way, shape or form. But you can believe your truth and I will believe mine. In our case, my husband didn't love HIMSELF enough to stop. It wasn't about us and our love and marriage at all, and it wasn't about the OW or whether he cared about her. It was about HIM. Also, your idea of 100% happy and desperately in love is a little off...see, when I was my husband's OW, I thought the exact same way as you do, but I've learned over time that that sort of thinking is extremely naive. My husband and I arehappy and desperately in love with each other, but the REAL stuff, rather than the fantasy that first sustained us, came over time and with a lot of hard work. It also came with some heartache, obviously. Edited June 22, 2011 by Angelina527
MissBee Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Yes, for real! And I would bet my last dollar that I live in the same "world" that everyone else on this planet. There is no gray on my gas gauge, thermometer, the measurements are clearly marked and accurate! Everything in-between is not gray but an absolute. In my profession people would die if information was gray rather than exact/absolute. Gray is ambiguous and I completely understand WHY many people need it in their life but nothing will change until someone steps up to the plate and inserts an absolute. Yeps...it's a handy loophole to anything. If you say there is no absolute and everything is subjective and relative...well heck, the world is then a free for all innit where we can all live in Gray Land, void of any accountability and exempt from any wrongdoing.
Silly_Girl Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Yeps...it's a handy loophole to anything. If you say there is no absolute and everything is subjective and relative...well heck, the world is then a free for all innit where we can all live in Gray Land, void of any accountability and exempt from any wrongdoing. Likewise, if you say everything is either Yes or No, On or Off, Right or Wrong, Good or Bad... You'd be deluded. In reality there's lots of 'middle ground', context and subjective moral calls. Look at the justice system, trying to apply absolute rules. But it cannot, because life, the world we share, it just isn't like that.
MissBee Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Likewise, if you say everything is either Yes or No, On or Off, Right or Wrong, Good or Bad... You'd be deluded. In reality there's lots of 'middle ground', context and subjective moral calls. Look at the justice system, trying to apply absolute rules. But it cannot, because life, the world we share, it just isn't like that. I think where I am coming from is that, in life, their are general rules and principles (the black and white if you will) and then there are the exceptions and concessions that have to be made (the gray). My and others' point seems to be that some people like to conveniently color things gray when it suits them or to throw out the blanket that "Oh well everything is relative" which silences all argument and opposition. Most of us have been in a position where we have called black or white gray because it was more advantageous to us. I think that was the point another poster was throwing out and what I, and some others, was building upon, just acknowledging the fact that in some scenarios, people prefer to live in Gray Land and if there is even a black or white to be found, they'd rather not find it. One cannot divorce the subject matter of the forum from the gray vs. black and white argument. It's not about life in general and if shades of gray exist, although people use outside examples to illustrate it, everything discussed in this forum stems from a position: you either think affairs are inherently wrong, inherently right, or you think it depends. Then everything you do and say in the forum henceforth, reaffirms that position. I think a majority of the contention in this forum comes from those with one point of view, pushing back against those with another. Which is fine, that's what forums are for. We have some people who are always defending "the gray point of view" by asserting the uniqueness of their situation and how it is different and why it is fine, or that it is misunderstood or some such and sometimes this happens regardless of the actual topic, every answer seems to be somehow a reminder to all that "there are shades of gray"...and then some people operate from the "black and white view" where affairs are wrong, no discussion and no matter what the topic, you will be reminded of this. Then you have those that while they have their position are open enough to see and understand another's viewpoint, even if they fundamentally disagree. Adding the emotional involvement, where most people have experienced cheating or are in some cheating scenario now, and it's not all hypothetical, intellectual debates also adds to the contention, defensive attitudes and misunderstandings.
NoIDidn't Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Spark, you will find Cabin is long on fantasy and short on action. I've asked this before in a previous thread and in this thread as well. Ignored. Each time. So my conclusion there is NO plan for Cabin to file for D nor for her MM to do so either. I think she was opining on lack of support at some point - but I may be wrong on that. Anyways, I think Im out as she isn't really looking for help or support in a meaningful fashion - as far as I can tell anyway. In all fairness, this is most OW. Very seldom is there ever a plan beyond believing that they are better than the W (because MM told them so) and that they're waiting for *him* to leave (because he told them so). And even when the MM do leave, its usually under the guise of "temporary separation", even though the OW is never told that little tidbit. So until they are actually divorced, the OW often doesn't have the security in making real plans for the R anyway. Whether or not she and MM plan to marry one day.
donnamaybe Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 In all fairness, this is most OW. Very seldom is there ever a plan beyond believing that they are better than the W (because MM told them so) and that they're waiting for *him* to leave (because he told them so). And even when the MM do leave, its usually under the guise of "temporary separation", even though the OW is never told that little tidbit. So until they are actually divorced, the OW often doesn't have the security in making real plans for the R anyway. Whether or not she and MM plan to marry one day. And this is the exact reason that I wish more women would take a stronger stance on refusing to accept a "half relationship" with anyone. We deserve more. Yes, some A situations result in a R, but very few. Of those that have I have noticed one constant: that the AP refused to remain hidden for any length of time. There was a declaration made of what was going to be acceptable to the AP in terms of a timeline to deal with ending the M, and it was adhered to.
Spark1111 Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 And this is the exact reason that I wish more women would take a stronger stance on refusing to accept a "half relationship" with anyone. We deserve more. Yes, some A situations result in a R, but very few. Of those that have I have noticed one constant: that the AP refused to remain hidden for any length of time. There was a declaration made of what was going to be acceptable to the AP in terms of a timeline to deal with ending the M, and it was adhered to. And yet, as women and men trying to empower other women to take some control of their romantic relationship, whether we be BS, OW, FOW, or NONE OF THE ABOVE, we are seen as unsympathetic, bitter, lacking in both perception and critical thought.
donnamaybe Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 And yet, as women and men trying to empower other women to take some control of their romantic relationship, whether we be BS, OW, FOW, or NONE OF THE ABOVE, we are seen as unsympathetic, bitter, lacking in both perception and critical thought. Ah, yes. The good ol' 'B' word. See it ALLLLL the time!
Silly_Girl Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Cabin - how's things? Hope you're alright and not put off posting. There are people here who care...
MissBee Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 And yet, as women and men trying to empower other women to take some control of their romantic relationship, whether we be BS, OW, FOW, or NONE OF THE ABOVE, we are seen as unsympathetic, bitter, lacking in both perception and critical thought. There we have it...
Mme. Chaucer Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Cabin - how's things? Hope you're alright and not put off posting. There are people here who care... Even those of us who aren't saying "YAY!" care. And, questions have been asked ... are you going to just ignore an entire community of people whom you pro-actively engaged in this personal issue because a number of them don't like your situation? I hope not. There are the "affair cheerleaders" here for you to give you strokes, and also here for you are nasty beeyotches ... as well as people who are challenging you to look at yourself and your choices in a different way than you have been doing. That is healthy for every single one of us, even if it feels like crap.
MissBee Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Even those of us who aren't saying "YAY!" care. And, questions have been asked ... are you going to just ignore an entire community of people whom you pro-actively engaged in this personal issue because a number of them don't like your situation? I hope not. There are the "affair cheerleaders" here for you to give you strokes, and also here for you are nasty beeyotches ... as well as people who are challenging you to look at yourself and your choices in a different way than you have been doing. That is healthy for every single one of us, even if it feels like crap. This! I had no idea caring meant commiserating.... IRL...My dearest friends are those who will tell me I am up to some bullshyt...even if I pout and protest or tell them they don't know what they're talking about and I do the same for them. They are free to do as they please, as am I, but I'm glad I don't only choose people who kiss my arse and coddle me. Many times I have to come back and say thanks, you were right And we move it along from there and sometimes they're wrong. Point is, I can trust them to provide a myriad of POVs I haven't thought about perhaps. It's all love.
Silly_Girl Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Jeez, you're all so defensive. I didn't say anything against anyone, but I'd hate it if she didn't feel welcome to return. I've seen it happen before. I'm certainly not one who only posts what the OP might be imagined to want to hear!!
donnamaybe Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 One topic I have seen in this thread which IS black and white for me is there is NO justification for sneaking around behind your partner's back, all the while deceiving and lying for a lengthy period of time. NONE! NO gray area there. ONLY justifications.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) One topic I have seen in this thread which IS black and white for me is there is NO justification for sneaking around behind your partner's back, all the while deceiving and lying for a lengthy period of time. NONE! NO gray area there. ONLY justifications. An interesting point. On example I often hear: The WS lies to protect their BS's feelings. They are basing a complex moral issue largely on their own assumptions of the BS's reaction. Only the BS can determine as to whether or not the WS is actually protecting their feelings, being kept in the dark for the WS's benefit, or both. But since the BS doesn't know, the BS can't actually say. Essentially, the BS can't know what s/he doesn't know, in contrast to what the WS and AP knows. Best way to avoid this would be to setup boundaries early in the relationship. It's easy to pick apart justifications. Edited June 23, 2011 by OldOnTheInside
Silly_Girl Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 One topic I have seen in this thread which IS black and white for me is there is NO justification for sneaking around behind your partner's back, all the while deceiving and lying for a lengthy period of time. NONE! NO gray area there. ONLY justifications. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what shall we do? Lock up everyone in the world who hurts someone with their actions, if it was avoidable? Or point and shout at them? Something else? What do you want to do with folks you don't approve of?
donnamaybe Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 I'm not saying you're wrong, but what shall we do? Lock up everyone in the world who hurts someone with their actions, if it was avoidable? Or point and shout at them? Something else? What do you want to do with folks you don't approve of? LMAO! There's that word "shout" again. Was I typing in all caps? Should I check my caps lock? I haven't a clue what should be "done" with them. HOWEVER, as we discuss lying and its fallout, we can at least admit it is wrong as regards that scenario. Or maybe some can't...
donnamaybe Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 An interesting point. On example I often hear: The WS lies to protect their BS's feelings. They are basing a complex moral issue largely on their own assumptions of the BS's reaction. Only the BS can determine as to whether or not the WS is actually protecting their feelings, being kept in the dark for the WS's benefit, or both. But since the BS doesn't know, the BS can't actually say. Essentially, the BS can't know what s/he doesn't know, in contrast to what the WS and AP knows. Best way to avoid this would be to setup boundaries early in the relationship. It's easy to pick apart justifications.Problem is, some people haven't any care in the world to abide by any agreed upon boundaries. They just do whatever the hell they want, and everyone else be damned.
donnamaybe Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 LMAO! There's that word "shout" again. Was I typing in all caps? Should I check my caps lock? I haven't a clue what should be "done" with them. HOWEVER, as we discuss lying and its fallout, we can at least admit it is wrong as regards that scenario. Or maybe some can't... I'd like to add, it makes a HUGE difference, at least to me, how people come across as they relay their behaviors. Some come to LS and actually appear to feel bad about the things they are or were doing behind their spouse's back. Others, on the other hand, just do whatever they please with an "I couldn't care less about anyone else but me" attitude. THAT, first and foremost, will determine how people will treat them, at least on LS.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Problem is, some people haven't any care in the world to abide by any agreed upon boundaries. They just do whatever the hell they want, and everyone else be damned. In that case the deception is fairly black and white. BS: I am an adult, I don't need you to protect my feelings. If you are having an affair, I want to know. WS:......Nothing going on.
woinlove Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Donna's post referred to a behavior (lying and deception). As to what to do - one can disagree with people who defend such actions and/or point out their rationalizations/justifications.
Silly_Girl Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 I'd like to add, it makes a HUGE difference, at least to me, how people come across as they relay their behaviors. Some come to LS and actually appear to feel bad about the things they are or were doing behind their spouse's back. Others, on the other hand, just do whatever they please with an "I couldn't care less about anyone else but me" attitude. THAT, first and foremost, will determine how people will treat them, at least on LS. Yes, I realise that. I see the judgements and the attitudes that follow. This is not news.
Glinda Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 I'm not saying you're wrong, but what shall we do? Lock up everyone in the world who hurts someone with their actions, if it was avoidable? Or point and shout at them? Something else? What do you want to do with folks you don't approve of? Easy. You don't condone their actions and you don't associate with them. I respect the rules within the confines of this forum. However IRL, I would never associate with someone like you and others of your ilk.
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