OldOnTheInside Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 'One' = opening poster. 'Source of it' = the source of the advice, the posters who respond to the opening poster. Okay... What message board are we in? And who is the opening poster in this case? And what label does she refer to herself as? And the posters who are the source of this advice, while simultaneously creating a condemning atmosphere for the OP, what labels do you think that they have for themselves? And what labels would you give them if you had to? This is getting silly and off-topic btw.
Silly_Girl Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Okay... What message board are we in? And who is the opening poster in this case? And what label does she refer to herself as? And the posters who are the source of this advice, while simultaneously creating a condemning atmosphere for the OP, what labels do you think that they have for themselves? And what labels would you give them if you had to? This is getting silly and off-topic btw. Not really sure why it's such an issue for you. It can be hard for posters on a support forum to get the full value of advice offered if they feel it's coming from 'haters', that's all.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Not really sure why it's such an issue for you. It can be hard for posters on a support forum to get the full value of advice offered if they feel it's coming from 'haters', that's all. Not much of an issue for me. I simply wished for certain points you had brought up to be clarified. But if you won't answer the questions I presented, that's fine. You have no obligation to do so. All I'm saying is, views that some would consider "rude" and "harsh" don't neccessarily have to be comdemned as the viewpoints of "haters". Anyway, have a good one...
Silly_Girl Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Not much of an issue for me. I simply wished for certain points you had brought up to be clarified. But if you won't answer the questions I presented, that's fine. You have no obligation to do so. All I'm saying is, views that some would consider "rude" and "harsh" don't neccessarily have to be comdemned as the viewpoints of "haters". Anyway, have a good one... But remember, yours and the OP's viewpoint on that may well be entirely different. Which was pretty much my point.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) But remember, yours and the OP's viewpoint on that may well be entirely different. Which was pretty much my point. There's nothing "wrong" with differing opinions per se. But should the OP at least attempt to acknowledge a viewpoint that she doesn't agree or feel comfortable with, or would that be classified as the viewpoint of a "hater"? Of course, she doesn't have to, but how else can she achieve greater understanding of every side of the affair dynamic? Edited June 21, 2011 by OldOnTheInside
jj33 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I don't see it as "allowing" at all. She's his W. He could have convinced the OW not to come with her H. And it certainly wouldn't be seen as him "allowing" the OW to be there with her H, so I don't see how that terminology even comes into place. Its so disrespectful to his W and her place in his life, whether he's cheating or not. Its just amazing to see the way being with a person that's already in a relationship creates new ways of thinking about where people belong and what to call it. Not intending this to pick on you in any way. An observation I've made in many that are OP to a "committed partner". Everything about the person they are committed to always comes across as them being "in the way", and "allowed". Its really sad to think of another person as if they are optional like that. NID I agree with you but we are dealing with someone who lies to his wife on a consistent basis. Perhaps my choice of words was wrong by allow I meant allow the situation to happen not allow as in give her permission. IMO, if you are dealing with someone who is cheating, you assume that more often than not, they are lying to the spouse about their schedules or where they are and he chose for whatever reason not to do that with this dinner. Heres a better phrase - He could have orchestrated the situation so that they were not at the same dinner. But it seems it wasnt a business dinner as I thought initially it now looks like it was a social thing which is very different.
Silly_Girl Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 There's nothing "wrong" with differing opinions per se. But should the OP at least attempt to acknowledge a viewpoint that she doesn't agree or feel comfortable with, or would that be classified as the viewpoint of a "hater"? Of course, she doesn't have to, but how else can she achieve greater understanding of every side of the affair dynamic? I only said it can be hard if the OP feels that way. I think posters are entitled to ignore any posts they wish. They may be missing out on useful viewpoints, or they may not.
xxoo Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 True. And also, there are some people who pop in and reply and they are NOT part of an affair triangle, just someone who wants to help. so unless one knows anothers backstory or just assumes by the advice what side of the triangle they're on, whether it be a current OW or a former OW, a BS etc, shouldn't really matter. Hopefully what advise Cabin has chosen to ignore right now, might help her later down the road. Agreed. It doesn't take being a BS to conclude that this MM's behavior at the dinner party is disturbingly callous. I'm concerned for the op, and the mess she is getting into.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 At the risk of sounding rude to many of the posters here, I am finding that most conversations here involve a lot of gross generalizations, assumptions, and very black and white thinking. I guess I am interested in engaging conversations with people who can offer empathy and critical thought, without having to resort to very simplistic understandings of humans and their hearts. A need for a gray area, or no black and white thinking is important to ignoring the unpleasantness of the reality of a situation. We don't want gray areas in other aspects of our lives. The gas gauge on my car is pretty black and white,if it were instead gray, then I could atleast hope that I had enough to get me home. No gray on thermometers, amortizations, prices at the market because we need that information to make important decisions. The lack of need for black and white thinking is because no one is is able to make a decision at the moment based on the reality of the situation. Boundaries are blurred because fantasy is still involved. When/if this resolves and you two are together, you will once again become a fan of black and white thinking and have a need to know where you stand. The ugly truths known to BS and many FOW are a very real part of the equation. I don't understand how critical thinking can take place without the hard facts. If you need to embrace fantastical thinking I can see how black and white would be a problem. We cast away priceless time in dreams, born of imagination, fed upon illusion, and put to death by reality.* Judy Garland*[\B]
TigerCub Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Oh, bring on the wrath people but if this logic works to say "if he went home with his wife then he's choosing her", it works the other way around too... and they went home separately. It wasn't meant as wrath at all. It was just meant to say who is he going with? Here you seem to imply that just because they went home separately he isn't with her? Does he not share a house with her? Is he not married to her? Even if they went home separately, is he not crawling into their bed with her? The point is, he claims to be miserable for over 10 years now is it? why isn't he leaving, he has you waiting, it should be an easy solution for him. ie. dump the introverted bore, the doesn't even drink and go with the always fun extrovert that's down for anything! and yet...he's not doing that. I'm not attacking you, I'm just imploring you to think and question some things.
whichwayisup Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 But obviously he doesn't love his W "enough" to stop the A - does he? He loves himself most. And he doesn't love his OW "enough" to divorce. This is called cake eating and getting used to two women to meet his needs, why would he give that up, especially if he hasn't been caught? In his mind, he's the King and feels entitled to have two women. If he did, he wouldn't have engaged in an A to being with. So whether he loves his W or how much he loves his W, is pretty much a moot point. No, it means he's a broken man inside. And again, he loves himself most and is selfish.
whichwayisup Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Oh, bring on the wrath people but if this logic works to say "if he went home with his wife then he's choosing her", it works the other way around too... and they went home separately. So what if they went home separately..Bottomline is, they are in their home, in their bed.
whichwayisup Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 NID I agree with you but we are dealing with someone who lies to his wife on a consistent basis. Perhaps my choice of words was wrong by allow I meant allow the situation to happen not allow as in give her permission. IMO, if you are dealing with someone who is cheating, you assume that more often than not, they are lying to the spouse about their schedules or where they are and he chose for whatever reason not to do that with this dinner. Heres a better phrase - He could have orchestrated the situation so that they were not at the same dinner. But it seems it wasnt a business dinner as I thought initially it now looks like it was a social thing which is very different. As she could have too seeing as they both are married. The MM isn't the only cheating person in this senario. She has a husband as well. She is lying and betraying just as much as the MM. She could have not gone and said a family emergency came up or "got sick" with the flu at the last minute.. To put it all on the MM isn't right either. Though I do agree with the same table seating is something that could've totally been avoided.
donnamaybe Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 He loves himself most. And he doesn't love his OW "enough" to divorce. This is called cake eating and getting used to two women to meet his needs, why would he give that up, especially if he hasn't been caught? In his mind, he's the King and feels entitled to have two women.Absolutely. But let's not discuss any of that because, after all, we are supposed to say only what wants to be heard.
BB07 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Absolutely. But let's not discuss any of that because, after all, we are supposed to say only what wants to be heard. Opps..........you said that word (discuss) we aren't supposed to discuss anything or offer advice that an OP wouldn't consider supportive. I suppose we are supposed to be mind readers and censor very carefully our thoughts so not to put someone in defensive mode.
donnamaybe Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Opps..........you said that word (discuss) we aren't supposed to discuss anything or offer advice that an OP wouldn't consider supportive. I suppose we are supposed to be mind readers and censor very carefully our thoughts so not to put someone in defensive mode. Well, after all, I would most certainly be on the defensive if I had a guy who refused to give up his other woman.
Mimolicious Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 One thing I find troubling about posting on this forum is the way readers put words in the mouths of posters. I never indicated that I went to the party to spy, nor did I watch her every move or listen to her every word. I went to a party I was invited to -- as I have mentioned, we share social circles and it would be more telling not to go --and then I posted some general observations I made in the context of one evening. At the risk of sounding rude to many of the posters here, I am finding that most conversations here involve a lot of gross generalizations, assumptions, and very black and white thinking. I guess I am interested in engaging conversations with people who can offer empathy and critical thought, without having to resort to very simplistic understandings of humans and their hearts. And unfortunately, you are lost in the "grey" area. Which requires a little bit of black & a little bit of white. Basically, a made up shade... What is it that we are assuming or grossly generalizing? Honestly, your opening post is kinda "gross". Comes across as you are gloating about the situation and you are bashing someone that at the end of the day is not facking up your groove... (the other way aroung) So who's to judge her? You find posters on a internet forum "Gross", yet you have flying little red things for a MM that has the calamity to mingle his family with the woman he cheats with? You don't find THAT gross???????????????????? Ok... You want to engage in a conversation without simplistic understandings of humans and their hearts? So let's talk about Robots... (Lost me there). Sad thing is, that the day that you guys get busted (and believe me the truth always comes out) sounds like the 2 of you will only have each other. Don't think any of your girlfriends are going to want you around their family. You become a menace at that point... so does your MM. Good luck! At the end, because of the way that this is unfolding, you guys will be empty, yet full of each other.
Mimolicious Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 ^ Human nature isn't necessarily a good thing sometimes. No kidding?!?!?! Look at what a wonderful deed people around here go doing. Inhumane at times. What a shame... and all for the sake of what???????????????
Mimolicious Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 There's nothing "wrong" with differing opinions per se. But should the OP at least attempt to acknowledge a viewpoint that she doesn't agree or feel comfortable with, or would that be classified as the viewpoint of a "hater"? Of course, she doesn't have to, but how else can she achieve greater understanding of every side of the affair dynamic? The bolded- YES THERE IS! On this board at least... total bullshyte.
26pointblue Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I'm Jamaican (I live in the US now though), and what you've said is actually a perfect example of the Jamaican culture with regards to relationships. In the U.S. it's like this too to an extent but in popular Jamaican culture it is more apparent. It is almost an accepted fact that men cheat, such is life, you work around it (I however do not buy that and live my life differently but I digress). What happens is that there is wifey (the wife or the legitimate girlfriend) and matey (the mistress or OW). There are codes of conduct for your position...most of the rules are applied only to the "matey". Many women vie for the wifey role as that is considered as being #1, you are the "Queen" of the castle and they feel superior because they have a level of power that the OW/matey doesn't have. There are even songs talking about how OW are "unpaid helpers" who "shine and polish" their men when they [the wifey] are not around. Women brag and boast and speak of this openly! They openly realize OW exist but look down on them as idiots. They're other songs and cultural expressions telling men to train their OW and make sure she doesn't disrespect the wife.... While the whole thing is absurd, on the wife's end as well as the OW and the men are the happy, fat cats in all this ...it spoke to what you just said about how you were indeed not superior as you felt and although the whole thing is a mess, the MM was the only one who could brag and boast while you both looked like pawns in his game...except the wife one upped you a bit but nonetheless was just as ridiculous. This is a really interesting post MissBee, thanks for sharing. I can see aspects of what you write about in my xMM & his family/upbringing/culture. In his culture [Mexican] it does seem pretty acceptable to openly have a mistress. His father had one for decades who everyone in the fmaily although apparently not his mother [i have my doubts] knew about. His father made children with a few different women. He always told me he didn't want to make/keep me the mistress but that is exactly what he was doing. He was living a double life [which his wife told me when she called me] - a life with me as his girlfriend when we went out with certain sets of his friends, & a life with his wife at home & with different sets of their friends. I had to know the rules & keep them & play by his games. I did that for way too long. Because I loved him & wanted to be with him & didn't have enough respect for myself to know I deserved better. Now Cabin is doing the same thing. She thinks she is superior to the wife because she likes to party & drink, but she is sitting there knowingly accepting her role of being MM's side dish, & not giving up his secret [here I realize she has reason to keep the secret too as she is still married], while the wife is sitting there unknowingly being made a fool of. At least the wife is the wife & is not purposefully inflicting hurt on herself, which I believe from experience is exactly what Cabin is doing.
26pointblue Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I get what you're saying, but from what I gather, there are probably forums out there dedicated to giving support in terms of positive reinforcement in the whole affair situation and for OW/OM only to gather and encourage each other in the situation, as well as to give tips and things of that nature for those wanting to stay in the situation. Dear Cabin, #1) Most OWs eventually turn into fOWs. Voluntarily or involuntarily. Even forums with active OWs have former OWs there, because it's the nature of the beast. An active OW is busy posting & then she becomes an fOW one way or the other, either she becomes her MM's 'one & only' or he becomes her exMM through his decision or hers etc. . . . & of course she still posts there. Of course her opinions are still influenced by her experiences. So it is here, too. It's a little silly to think only active OWs are going to respond anywhere. #2) I've read these boards for only OWs & most of the OWs on there would probably not think what you & your MM did was very cool. Just because a woman is an OW does not mean she thinks it's okay to make a fool of the BS like this or a fool of herself [the OW] like this. I think you made a fool of both yourself & the BS, & only your MM has the power here. I will call you out on it because I have done similar things & I can see through the lens of experience that this is headed no where but trouble. I do encourage you to go post on the OW-only forum [the pink board-- there are current & former OWs there only] . . . I'm willing to bet you will not get much 'support' if the support you are looking for is empathy for doing this thing which most people, even OWs, would consider wrong. So go ahead & blame it on the people at this board but not many people would support what you are doing or tell you it is good for anyone involved . . . especially when there are innocent children involved in all of this. Boo.
26pointblue Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 If she posted this same story on the TOW forum, I'm not sure that she would get totally different responses. Her MM never should have put his wife or his OW in that situation. It is disrespectful to both of them. Exactly. I didn't see your response before I posted mine, saying the very same thing. :-)
26pointblue Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 interesting you bring this up... doesn't matter which woman he may love - or love more - the only one he's really considering is his own selfish needs/wants. he loves himself more than either woman. both women are in a losing position being involved with such a selfish man. Agreed. Everyone has pointed out that Cabin's MM is a typical cakeeater who wants both wife & affair. She thinks the events of the dinner party show he is leaving. Most of us think they show he is not! He is staying put with the status quo & he likes it that way, even gets some sick enjoyment out of having both wife & mistress together . . . & here is his mistress defending him all the way. Wow, I keep thinking how much I would love to be in these MMs' positions! Oh I'll just bring wife & mistress . . . wife doesn't know & mistress will play along & I'm the one basking in the ego-boost of it all & being the life of the party. Cabin if you want a man like that, have at him. As BB07 pointed out, you didn't mention whether you put your own husband through the cruelty of being played for a fool at this dinner party or not. But if so, then MM is sitting there knowing he has had you & your husband is there & is clueless . . . how cruel.
2sunny Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 OP mentioned it was awkward... it is awkward for many reasons... many elements are getting tangled up in her web. it is a business relationship - yet they are socializing. keep it to business only. mixing THIS social life with business is often disasterous on so many levels... you are playing with fire - but that is part of the excitement, yes? it is an affair yet the families are together - so which is it going to be? it's all very twisted... because in the end (IF you two do end up "together" - out in the open) all the friends and family members will feel conned - and rightly so. so now this tangled web has created so many areas that cause suspicion. no matter what happens in the future - you are damned once it IS out in the open, mainly because IF you want to end up together - no one will honestly believe that you two haven't been honest all along... no matter how long you wait to get it out in the open to family and friends. you have now placed YOUR credibility at risk... and have undermined your ability to be respected - especially once this all comes to light for friends, family and co-workers. i can't see how this risk is worth it... respecting MYSELF is not at the mercy of any man... and i always tell men (even IF they are separated) i don't date men unless they are available and single. call me when your divorce is final. THAT is a boundary that works! IF he REALLY loves you - he wouldn't put your reputation at risk... (and if YOU loved YOU - you wouldn't put YOUR reputation at risk) - he COULD easily WAIT until you TWO are completely available to get started with a healthy foundation for the relationship. it's all twisted because the foundation is built on lies and deception... which is never a good place to start. untangle the web... step OUT of it ALL until you are BOTH available. you've waited a lifetime... waiting a bit longer should really be no big deal at this point.
Angelina527 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 But obviously he doesn't love his W "enough" to stop the A - does he? If he did, he wouldn't have engaged in an A to being with. So whether he loves his W or how much he loves his W, is pretty much a moot point. That's not necessarily true. In my case, my husband loved me very much...he had other problems that contributed to his affair that had absolutely nothing to do with me, our marriage, or even the OW.
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