oaks Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 It gets quite silly. Yup! Profiles where the list of reasons not to contact her is longer than the list of things she positively says about herself are good ones to avoid.
Mrlonelyone Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 @Easy Heart. I hear what you are saying but honestly men do it too. There are women who are basically just a pice of arm candy. If there is a difference it is this. Men knowingly do this, and often make it clear that's what they are doing. Having arm candy is the reason that the very high class "escort" or "courtesan" exist. Yes they have sex for money....but they can be arm candy for a man who wants to impress too. Women on the other hand have a bit of cognitive dissonance about it. They want a man who will impress those around them....but they will try to rationalize it into something more than it is. I cannot tell you how many women I know have "boyfriends" who they really truly don't seem to even like. Yet they keep them because they make them look good. In short men do the arm candy, "shopping" thing is a more up front way. Women cloak it in a thin veneer of emotions to make it seem deeper than it is. The problem for a guy like the OP's friend, is that while he may be attractive enough, and a decent guy that's not good enough. Perhaps his eye or hair color does not match the shoes of the women he's dating. Or perhaps the women he chooses like to change men with the seasons... much like wardrobe.
Author sally4sara Posted June 18, 2011 Author Posted June 18, 2011 he didn't say it was taught by men. I know he didn't. I did and not to imply only them. Just predominantly, even when it isn't an act of admiration or love. FIL never expected my SIL to accomplish anything really. Never put even half the demands on her he put on my husband. Why? He doesn't think highly of women. He expects them to be ineffectual and get things done through a man. Guess how she turned out? I've never seen two siblings so wildly different when it comes to self reliance. But it didn't have to turn out this way for my SIL. Why did she deserve this up bringing? And yeah, she does flake on everyone about everything now that I think about it.
thatone Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 it's not really even predominantly. it's equal at best. lots of people don't deserve their upbringing. my parents divorced when i was 4. and i had it better than a lot of kids these days, even. my dad was never in prison, just a state away.
dispatch3d Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Someone mentioned earlier its because the girls don't like the guys, but can't say no. While this is definitely the case, I've had girls who seemed very interested (even for no apparent reason) flake out multiple times. Unfortunately, it has very little to do with the individual guys, and really everything to do with THE WOMEN. They are the ones flaking out afterall. Blaming the guy for the women being a pain in the ass? I think you're putting the responsibility in the wrong spot. As far as guys are concerned though, this is only an issue if you give a ****. Care less and the problem doesn't exist anymore. You don't over-reach at all inviting/making plans with girls you're "interested in" (because who gives a ****). The emotional crap can be what girls do, just be guys, invite women out when you feel like it, if they flake a lot axe em! .
BCCA Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 The truth of the matter is that online dating is skewed heavily in womens favor, and they naturally take advantage of it. Women are constantly contacted and asked out, while men usually play the numbers game and email 10+ women, hoping to get even one response. Online dating can be another avenue to meet people through, but shouldn't be the only place a guy looks for a date. If a man sticks strictly to the online route, he's going to be consistently dissapointed. People who flake aren't worth your time. My favorite is the people who you talk to on the phone, but then they text you to flake LOL if you can't even call to break our plans, you suck and I don't want to bother with you. The reason women are usually the culprits of flaking more than guys is because of this deep rooted need 'not to seem like a bitch'. They give out numbers and make plans with people they have ZERO interest in seeing or talking to, not realizing that giving your number out and not answering/calling back or flaking on a date is much worse than a simple 'no thanks, I'm not interested.' Its just the way it is. My advice to your friend is to look for dates offline. The internet is full of flakes.
Author sally4sara Posted June 18, 2011 Author Posted June 18, 2011 Yeah, about the only thing I had to offer him as advise is to, whether online or at the bar, is to just try to meet people. Guys and girls. Socializing gets you invited to other social events where women are more receptive. I didn't want to date men who approached me in a bar and online was more like window shopping. Most of the people I dated I met through other, more trusted people.
dispatch3d Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 I don't think there's an easy way to give a one-line or one-reason answer to why a huge subset of women flake. The problem is way too complex. It's kind of like saying the answer to world peace is stop bitching about it. That's not really true.
thatone Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Feminist write much about male privilege without considering male obligations. indeed they do and that's a very good observation.
Author sally4sara Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 It's cultural. Males are drilled from age 7 onward about their responsibility to other people. "A mans word is his bond." Women receive no such training( except in the case of their children). Feminist write much about male privilege without considering male obligations. What are these?
thatone Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 What are these? that if you break commitments, even small ones, you will be unemployed and you will f*cking starve to death. say for example your boss invites you to go to a business dinner with him to meet clients or colleagues, you do NOT decline the offer and you do NOT change your plans and fail to show after you have accepted or your ass is gonna get fired. if your friends are business colleagues and they invite you to meet colleagues of theirs you also do NOT decline and do NOT cancel the appearance short of a medical emergency. if you do those friends will stop being your friends and cut you out of their circle of business dealings, which brings us back to the point about "you will f*cking starve". if you are a client and you tell a man running a business that he will get your business, and you later change your mind and give that business to someone else with no explanation, that guy will tell everyone he knows that you are a worthless client and should be avoided, and you will soon find that no one is willing to deal with you, which will bring you back to the point mentioned above regarding "you will f*cking starve". there are very rarely second chances in these situations. if you get wishy washy on someone even once, you will be ostracized by that person and anyone else that said person talks about such business with. there's your explanation for the glass ceiling that feminist types complain about . a man is only allowed to lie to women. if he lies to other men he will be outcast by those men. men will not tolerate indecision from other men, ever.
Woggle Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Another thing is that men let women get away with much more than they would a man. I have seen drunk women get away with things in bars that would get a man knocked out cold on the floor.
thatone Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Another thing is that men let women get away with much more than they would a man. I have seen drunk women get away with things in bars that would get a man knocked out cold on the floor. lol, i had a guy spill beer on me at a concert last wednesday. someone bumped into him from behind as i was getting up to let him get to his seat. instantly everyone goes into self defense mode (step back, look up, watch for the punch). the guy who bumped the beer guy apologized and i defused it from there telling them not to worry about it, it's the cleaners' problem not mine. but yeah, that's how quick men will perceive and stamp out something they do not tolerate. even if they aren't offended by such an action, men have to assume that other men will be and be quick to defuse such situations, because whoever is offended is gonna let the other guy know in about 10 seconds tops. and that's not just when someone wrongs you. when someone does you a favor that favor must be accepted and returned. if the favor is not accepted, explanation must be given. flakiness, indecision, unreliability, whatever you want to call it is not tolerated. Edited June 20, 2011 by thatone
Woggle Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 lol, i had a guy spill beer on me at a concert last wednesday. someone bumped into him from behind as i was getting up to let him get to his seat. instantly everyone goes into self defense mode (step back, look up, watch for the punch). the guy who bumped the beer guy apologized and i defused it from there telling them not to worry about it, it's the cleaners' problem not mine. but yeah, that's how quick men will perceive and stamp out something they do not tolerate. even if they aren't offended by such an action, men have to assume that other men will be and be quick to defuse such situations, because whoever is offended is gonna let the other guy know in about 10 seconds tops. and that's not just when someone wrongs you. when someone does you a favor that favor must be accepted and returned. if the favor is not accepted, explanation must be given. flakiness, indecision, unreliability, whatever you want to call it is not tolerated. Very true. Some don't realize that men hold each other to higher standards than we do women. No way in hell would most men put up with this kind of stuff from their friends so we expect it from women and are left scratching our heads when it doesn't happen.
thatone Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) Very true. Some don't realize that men hold each other to higher standards than we do women. No way in hell would most men put up with this kind of stuff from their friends so we expect it from women and are left scratching our heads when it doesn't happen. all this is reminding me of another example. my brother is one of the men that "doesn't get it". he's indecisive, accepts favors and doesn't return them, flakes on business dealings, etc. to give the women here an example of how highly men regard such social propriety, i don't associate with my own brother that much because of this stuff. i'm closer to my stepbrother and nephew than my real brother. yes, men will even outcast other men in their own family, if they violate these simple principles. our father is the same way, he has very little to do with the brother in question. the "man code" is above family and friends. it's pretty much above everyone except your mother and your wife or girlfriend, they only get a pass because they're women. that's why that glass ceiling exists, ladies. if you flake out on a business situation that falls under 'man code' even once you just bumped your nose on that glass ceiling, you won't get another chance in all likelihood. Edited June 20, 2011 by thatone
Woggle Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I don't put up with it from women. I truly do believe men and women are equal and the only reason some women act this way is because they can get away with it. In order to truly achieve respect you need to hold yourself to a high standard and that is what they don't get. That is why you will never catch me defending men cheating with some spread the seed evolution BS. I hold my gender to a higher standard than that and women who truly do believe in equality should do the same as well.
Sanman Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 lol, i had a guy spill beer on me at a concert last wednesday. someone bumped into him from behind as i was getting up to let him get to his seat. instantly everyone goes into self defense mode (step back, look up, watch for the punch). the guy who bumped the beer guy apologized and i defused it from there telling them not to worry about it, it's the cleaners' problem not mine. but yeah, that's how quick men will perceive and stamp out something they do not tolerate. even if they aren't offended by such an action, men have to assume that other men will be and be quick to defuse such situations, because whoever is offended is gonna let the other guy know in about 10 seconds tops. and that's not just when someone wrongs you. when someone does you a favor that favor must be accepted and returned. if the favor is not accepted, explanation must be given. flakiness, indecision, unreliability, whatever you want to call it is not tolerated. While I am not going to talk about glass ceilings, I do admit that men have a very different way of doing things than women and I do think that at the very core of those behaviors is the acknowledgment that misbehavior and a lack of respect among men can lead to getting your face bashed in. Women do not concern themselves with such consequences. I see this behavior at bars more than other places. Guys are always careful of spills or even bumping into people at a crowded bar. I often even get pats from the back and friendly chats from security because I am a big guy and they know showing a little respect and being friendly is better than both of us getting hurt if I decide to get out of hand. This even extends to dating. Men are told here often that no job means no dating, while women have the option of whether they want to abide by these rules. Men are taught that they need to provide for a family while even in this day and age women are given the option to contribute or not. A man must generally make the first move. Again a woman has the option, but does not have if she does not want to. In society today, women are given endless options as to their lifestyle choices, careers, behavior, and there not clear lessons. Men still have fairly clear roles as society has given us few options unless we look like Brad Pitt. Those roles come with a clear set of rules.
Mrlonelyone Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 What Woggle, That one are saying is true and germaine to the original topic. If you really want to know why so many women flake out it's because they are allowed by society to do just that without any real consequences. As a transgendered MTF I know both sides of this particular coin. Male privillege is very real. It turns up most in a general assumption of being competent. People male and female assume that all males are knowledgeable about mechanical things. While it is assumed that all females are inept with mechaical things. Thus leading to the classic situation where a mechanic will talk straight to a man, but try to rip off a woman. I have had it happen to me. In electronics stotres I noticed that men get help allot more than women. I would be standing there and a clerk would help every single man in the store before he would help me. The list goes on. The "glass ceiling" is due in large part to men and even women thinking that women are less competent simply by being female. Many transgender male to female and female to male people can tell you about how radically different the treatment is. More to the topic... Women are more likely to be flaky because of what they get in place of male privillege is female niceties. People are nicer to women than they are to men in certain situations. Ie. a drunk woman making an @$$ of herself in a bar won't get knocked out and thrown into the street by a bouncer. Women also get the nicety of being expected to not have to handle any thing directly. So much of what we call gender is taught and exist only to exaggerate the sexual dimorphism, the differences between men and women. This flakyness thing is the same. If young girls were drilled about not breaking promises the way that boys are this would stop. The old boys club is not all cigars and brandy.
EasyHeart Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 What Woggle, That one are saying is true and germaine to the original topic. If you really want to know why so many women flake out it's because they are allowed by society to do just that without any real consequences. As a transgendered MTF I know both sides of this particular coin. Male privillege is very real. It turns up most in a general assumption of being competent. People male and female assume that all males are knowledgeable about mechanical things. While it is assumed that all females are inept with mechaical things. Thus leading to the classic situation where a mechanic will talk straight to a man, but try to rip off a woman. I have had it happen to me. In electronics stotres I noticed that men get help allot more than women. I would be standing there and a clerk would help every single man in the store before he would help me. That's a good observation, but it goes both ways, too. I've been in cooking stores and fabric stores where the sales people (universally women) either ignore me or are rude to me or talk down to me like I'm an idiot. They have an attitude of "You don't belong here". And maybe flipside of the "male privilege" of being considered competent is always having to BE competent? Using the car mechanic example, if a woman gets ripped off my a repair shop, the response is "Oh my! That's terrible! You should get your money back! Let me help you" while the response to a guy would be "Well, you should have known what was wrong with your car and you should have known what it takes to fix it. It's your fault if you got screwed over".
Author sally4sara Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 that if you break commitments, even small ones, you will be unemployed and you will f*cking starve to death. This has been true for myself at many points in my life. I don't know how you could call this a male obligation. say for example your boss invites you to go to a business dinner with him to meet clients or colleagues, you do NOT decline the offer and you do NOT change your plans and fail to show after you have accepted or your ass is gonna get fired. if your friends are business colleagues and they invite you to meet colleagues of theirs you also do NOT decline and do NOT cancel the appearance short of a medical emergency. if you do those friends will stop being your friends and cut you out of their circle of business dealings, which brings us back to the point about "you will f*cking starve". Again, this is true of anyone in a business where you have to schmooze clients. I am in such a business. I am not a man so this can't be a male obligation. if you are a client and you tell a man running a business that he will get your business, and you later change your mind and give that business to someone else with no explanation, that guy will tell everyone he knows that you are a worthless client and should be avoided, and you will soon find that no one is willing to deal with you, which will bring you back to the point mentioned above regarding "you will f*cking starve". there are very rarely second chances in these situations. if you get wishy washy on someone even once, you will be ostracized by that person and anyone else that said person talks about such business with. there's your explanation for the glass ceiling that feminist types complain about . a man is only allowed to lie to women. if he lies to other men he will be outcast by those men. men will not tolerate indecision from other men, ever. Still not seeing how this is a male obligation example. Do you believe there are no women in business? That there are no women who have bills to pay? We don't need to make money to eat and keep a roof over our heads? As well, your example here is dependent on men behaving differently to each other than they do to women. This can't be something women can change thru their behavior. The explanation for the glass ceiling is we are the ones giving birth and more obligated to their care than men typically are. The glass ceiling is our problem to battle by expecting our male partners to do more hands on care of the children rather than assume it all on ourselves. I don't blame men for this so I don't see how you could blame women for what men don't expect out of women. Humans will take advantage of any advantage afforded them. That's not a woman thing or a man thing. You're a bit confused. Not to mention how lovely it is that your values include that its okay to lie to women only (trust, y'all lie like rugs to each other all the time!) while you also complain about things you think only women can get away with. Oh Irony!
Author sally4sara Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 While I am not going to talk about glass ceilings, I do admit that men have a very different way of doing things than women and I do think that at the very core of those behaviors is the acknowledgment that misbehavior and a lack of respect among men can lead to getting your face bashed in. Women do not concern themselves with such consequences. I see this behavior at bars more than other places. Guys are always careful of spills or even bumping into people at a crowded bar. I often even get pats from the back and friendly chats from security because I am a big guy and they know showing a little respect and being friendly is better than both of us getting hurt if I decide to get out of hand. This even extends to dating. Men are told here often that no job means no dating, while women have the option of whether they want to abide by these rules. Men are taught that they need to provide for a family while even in this day and age women are given the option to contribute or not. A man must generally make the first move. Again a woman has the option, but does not have if she does not want to. In society today, women are given endless options as to their lifestyle choices, careers, behavior, and there not clear lessons. Men still have fairly clear roles as society has given us few options unless we look like Brad Pitt. Those roles come with a clear set of rules. Feminism was intended to give everyone equal opportunity to pursue any life they wanted, not just women. Take advantage of that or don't. I don't see how its anyone's fault but your own if you don't employ what is afforded you.
Author sally4sara Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 What Woggle, That one are saying is true and germaine to the original topic. If you really want to know why so many women flake out it's because they are allowed by society to do just that without any real consequences. As a transgendered MTF I know both sides of this particular coin. Male privillege is very real. It turns up most in a general assumption of being competent. People male and female assume that all males are knowledgeable about mechanical things. While it is assumed that all females are inept with mechaical things. Thus leading to the classic situation where a mechanic will talk straight to a man, but try to rip off a woman. I have had it happen to me. In electronics stotres I noticed that men get help allot more than women. I would be standing there and a clerk would help every single man in the store before he would help me. The list goes on. The "glass ceiling" is due in large part to men and even women thinking that women are less competent simply by being female. Many transgender male to female and female to male people can tell you about how radically different the treatment is. More to the topic... Women are more likely to be flaky because of what they get in place of male privillege is female niceties. People are nicer to women than they are to men in certain situations. Ie. a drunk woman making an @$$ of herself in a bar won't get knocked out and thrown into the street by a bouncer. Women also get the nicety of being expected to not have to handle any thing directly. So much of what we call gender is taught and exist only to exaggerate the sexual dimorphism, the differences between men and women. This flakyness thing is the same. If young girls were drilled about not breaking promises the way that boys are this would stop. The old boys club is not all cigars and brandy. This I very much agree with and it drives me nuts. Especially when I am not someone who runs on "female niceties" that don't sound very beneficial to women any more than they are to men. I'm appalled at the flakiness my friend is experiencing. What a world we would have if being ineffectual wasn't equated to being a pussy or being a bitch or some other female pejorative. How many of the problems we all face would have been long ago sorted out by a world where we were all expected to be capable, hands on, responsible people equally? How many problems avoided if we were all expected to be a team player and nurturing?
Author sally4sara Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 I also hear crickets ladies......why none weighing in on this behavior? I could use some other side of the coin input as to what this method affords or achieves; what purpose it serves for any women currently in the dating scene. If you're going to be rude I would hope it was with purpose. I'm truly curious what that purpose would be.
Woggle Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I admit that women probably do get treated like that at electronic stores but try being a man in family court or a father who has to drop a kid off in daycare. My friend who is a single dad and not nearly as angry about gender issues as I am says they treat him like he is a child molestor. Try having women get mad at the one day of the year where we acknowledge good men and fathers because according to them we don't even deserve that.
tigressA Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I also hear crickets ladies......why none weighing in on this behavior? I could use some other side of the coin input as to what this method affords or achieves; what purpose it serves for any women currently in the dating scene. If you're going to be rude I would hope it was with purpose. I'm truly curious what that purpose would be. One time, I got together with a guy I had met on OKCupid. We got along well, but I felt like there was something missing. We had made plans to hang out again in another week or so, but in the meantime my now-BF had asked me out for our first date. I hadn't even gone out with my BF yet before I was on the phone with the other guy, saying I had met someone else who I clicked with better. It was a convenient excuse...I think if it wasn't there then I would've just been honest with him and said I wasn't feeling it. Why did I make the plans in the first place? I fleetingly thought that perhaps something could grow between us if I gave it some time, and it wasn't like I had anything better to do.
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