youngskywalker Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Ancient people did not have sophisticated language kinda like ancient greek. extremely unsophisticated.
Disillusioned Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Ancient people did not have sophisticated language, scientific knowledge nor particularly efficient media to convey knowledge. Maybe not, but they had good hallucinogens.
oldguy Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Yes, but that still doesn't tell me why some people do evil things and never get punished for it. Patience, God may forgive but that doesn't mean you won't be held accountable.
Floridaman Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Mark Twain said it best: What troubles me most about the Bible isn't what I don't understand about it, but what I do understand.... i.e. not serving the Lord your God, not lusting after your neighbor's wife, harboring murderous thoughts against another, not caring for the poor.... Much of it sounds like common-sense laws...
Taramere Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Through bitter experience people working in criminal psychology for any length of time generally seem to end up accepting the notion that is taught by leaders in the study of psychopathy. That some people simply cannot be taught empathy. There will no doubt always be new psychologists coming along who don't want to believe that. Behaviouralists who want to think that they will be the one to effect change where others failed before them. A bit like the woman who writes regularly to a serial killer on death row believing that she's going to be the one to change him . I think if you accept that a minority of people are simply born that way (albeit sometimes perhaps having their condition exacerbated by poor parenting and difficult circumstances), then you have to accept that they are fundamentally lacking in something most people have. The element most people have that makes them capable of genuine empathy and of experiencing remorse. Even psychologists, who aren't generally keen on using spiritual terms, often employ the popular description of psychopaths as "lacking a soul". The existence of some people who seem to be absolutely evil is, ironically, the thing that is most likely to convince me in the existence of a God. If there is such a thing as absolute evil, then I believe there is such a thing as absolute good....and I think that even if we can't be absolutely good ourselves, belief that there is such a thing as absolute goodness (encompassed in a higher being) helps people to resist and prevail over absolute evil. That's not to say there aren't psychopaths out there who preach gospel/create religious cults for their own ends. In terms of biblical teachings, I would say that is a pretty logical reason for following the "thou shalt not worship false idols" rule. Generally, I think the commandments are consistent with promoting healthy psychology in people. Obviously, though, biblical teachings are open to malicious and destructive interpretation by and for people who are seriously maladjusted. I also think it's ridiculous when creationist notions lifted from literal interpretation of the bible are used as an excuse not to learn science. If somebody wants to say "I don't want to learn science because I find it difficult/boring/I lack any aptitude for it" then that's fine and honest...but referring to the bible as an excuse for not learning that which is difficult is just a cop-out. Edited July 4, 2011 by Taramere
taiko Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 This didn’t seem to stop us from dropping the atom bomb. The truth is killing is very inconvenient and puts the person doing the killing in a position to be killed/punished by individuals and society for reasons of self preservation and order. So not only do you believe god literally wrote the Ten Commandments but you believe this is the reason we aim not to murder and steal? There's that translation problem, people I trust who speak the Biblical and my language conversationally and fluently say the particular COMMANDMENT reads "murder" and not "kill" as is said in the most widely used translation in English. If a Commandment can be gotten wrong what else could we have missed in an effort to follow God? The act of dropping the atom bomb versus invading Japan versus quitting the war and letting the Japanese Imperial Army rampage through China and the rest of Asia is a political and not a religious question in my mind.
Floridaman Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted by Dust This didn’t seem to stop us from dropping the atom bomb. The truth is killing is very inconvenient and puts the person doing the killing in a position to be killed/punished by individuals and society for reasons of self preservation and order. So not only do you believe god literally wrote the Ten Commandments but you believe this is the reason we aim not to murder and steal? There's that translation problem, people I trust who speak the Biblical and my language conversationally and fluently say the particular COMMANDMENT reads "murder" and not "kill" as is said in the most widely used translation in English. If a Commandment can be gotten wrong what else could we have missed in an effort to follow God? The act of dropping the atom bomb versus invading Japan versus quitting the war and letting the Japanese Imperial Army rampage through China and the rest of Asia is a political and not a religious question in my mind. Agreed. Few would argue God wants people to be ignorant. I know some would argue there is no God but an overwhelming number of people in the U.S. (70-80%) believe in a diety. Murder means premeditated. Someone can kill someone in self-defense or preventing a crime such as someone trying to abduct as child, preparing to set off a bomb in a school full of children or shoot down an airplane, etc. A man wouldn't let criminals or gangs invade his home, rape his wife, children, etc. Governments were formed to protect people, so self-defense such as WW I & WWII sounds fine to me.....
Author Dust Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Through bitter experience people working in criminal psychology for any length of time generally seem to end up accepting the notion that is taught by leaders in the study of psychopathy. That some people simply cannot be taught empathy. There will no doubt always be new psychologists coming along who don't want to believe that. Behaviouralists who want to think that they will be the one to effect change where others failed before them. A bit like the woman who writes regularly to a serial killer on death row believing that she's going to be the one to change him . I think if you accept that a minority of people are simply born that way (albeit sometimes perhaps having their condition exacerbated by poor parenting and difficult circumstances), then you have to accept that they are fundamentally lacking in something most people have. The element most people have that makes them capable of genuine empathy and of experiencing remorse. Even psychologists, who aren't generally keen on using spiritual terms, often employ the popular description of psychopaths as "lacking a soul". The existence of some people who seem to be absolutely evil is, ironically, the thing that is most likely to convince me in the existence of a God. If there is such a thing as absolute evil, then I believe there is such a thing as absolute good....and I think that even if we can't be absolutely good ourselves, belief that there is such a thing as absolute goodness (encompassed in a higher being) helps people to resist and prevail over absolute evil. I believe in different levels of risk. A poisonous snake is just one of many animals that can pose a risk to human life and health/safety. These beasts often personify evil. I’m not a religious expert but I’m well aware of animal symbolism including snakes and the demons/devils being referred to as beasts or the devil the beast. My point is animals can be dangerous and humans are supposed to be humane to one another. Of course there are people who are dangerous in fact more dangerous then the most dangerous animals. These people can use weapons like guns, radiation etc. against us. These people have intelligence so can pick our locks, trick us, or even marry us before showing their true face. It’s scary. That’s the aim of religion. Turn to it out of fear. You’re supposed to fear god. It’s considered arrogant to laugh or joke about it and be anything but scared of gods supposed all mighty power. I see positives in this, but I see more negatives. Humans do best when we are humane to one another. Even a strong individual will be taken down by the many if he/she only thinks of himself. You at least have to play the game that you are humane. The fact is though true joy regardless of religion can come from caring about people and having those people care about you. Those people can become so apart of you that you would protect them like they were you even at the risk of your life. That is a phenomenon separate from Christianity and predates the modern religions. That level of care has always existed. That's not to say there aren't psychopaths out there who preach gospel/create religious cults for their own ends. In terms of biblical teachings' date=' I would say that is a pretty logical reason for following the "thou shalt not worship false idols" rule. Generally, I think the commandments are consistent with promoting healthy psychology in people. Obviously, though, biblical teachings are open to malicious and destructive interpretation by and for people who are seriously maladjusted.[/quote'] My argument is simply some people are broken. They are more animal then human. I’m not sure if they were born that way or made that way or some combination. I don’t think the mosquito that gives people death diseases is evil, or the snake that kills a baby is evil. That same way I don’t think an animal like person who takes it upon themselves to kill their own children is evil. It’s a broken person more animal then human. When Andrea Yates drowned her children on after the other as they fought to survive I didn’t think she was evil. I thought there is a broken person. She did it because she was part of some Christian cult that led her to believe people were be corrupted and going to hell. She took that to an extreme and figured her children might be corrupted so if she killed them they would be pure and go to heaven and in fact she was doing them a favor even though they fought and did what little they could to survive as they were slaughtered one by one. Was she evil? I don’t think so, I think she went insane, lost her humanity and became more animal. I don’t know why, but to say it was the devil just is a thought ending pointless analysis that leads no where. I do believe the bible helps. I just think the focus should be more like a profession. In a profession people make promises and take public oaths to uphold ethical boundaries and follow ethical rules and professional conduct must be ensured. We need something like the bible, but really the focus should be on being good to one another and the rewards that come with caring and being cared for. Live by the sword, die by the sword. By being violent and uncaring you create the same for yourself or at minimum make that end much more likely unless you change. I don’t see what believing in magical rewards and punishment in the afterlife do to add to that. People should be taught to be good for the immediate and real rewards that should be the focus. Not magic. I also think it's ridiculous when creationist notions lifted from literal interpretation of the bible are used as an excuse not to learn science. If somebody wants to say "I don't want to learn science because I find it difficult/boring/I lack any aptitude for it" then that's fine and honest...but referring to the bible as an excuse for not learning that which is difficult is just a cop-out. Well that’s a big debate in the United States. Some people feel its important for science class time to be filled with philosophy and religion passed off as scientific theory. Talk about the theory of a creator intelligently designing the universe in church not the science class room. What next talking about an intelligent designer in the math class curriculum. Its absurd and just proves my point at how literally the bible is being taken and to great harm. There's that translation problem, people I trust who speak the Biblical and my language conversationally and fluently say the particular COMMANDMENT reads "murder" and not "kill" as is said in the most widely used translation in English. If a Commandment can be gotten wrong what else could we have missed in an effort to follow God? The act of dropping the atom bomb versus invading Japan versus quitting the war and letting the Japanese Imperial Army rampage through China and the rest of Asia is a political and not a religious question in my mind. The same point can be made even using the word murder. What happened was mass murder. Agreed. Few would argue God wants people to be ignorant. I know some would argue there is no God but an overwhelming number of people in the U.S. (70-80%) believe in a diety. Murder means premeditated. Someone can kill someone in self-defense or preventing a crime such as someone trying to abduct as child, preparing to set off a bomb in a school full of children or shoot down an airplane, etc. A man wouldn't let criminals or gangs invade his home, rape his wife, children, etc. Governments were formed to protect people, so self-defense such as WW I & WWII sounds fine to me..... They dropped the atom bomb for a tactical advantage and did end up killing lots of children and babies. It was mass murder on a scale never before committed and it was even more brutal for the people who weren’t killed right away and rotted from radiation poison. This was all known before hand. It was done for perceived tactical advantage. Sounds fine to you shows how lacking your so called Christian morals have left you. Shouldn’t it be at least a little murky?
Floridaman Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 They dropped the atom bomb for a tactical advantage and did end up killing lots of children and babies. It was mass murder on a scale never before committed and it was even more brutal for the people who weren’t killed right away and rotted from radiation poison. This was all known before hand. It was done for perceived tactical advantage. Sounds fine to you shows how lacking your so called Christian morals have left you. Shouldn’t it be at least a little murky? Nowhere in my post did I support mass murder or genocide. Of course, that situation was murky. You think Pres. Truman didn't agonize over that decision? Still, would be hard-pressed to blame a leader for trying to stop invading airplanes from bombing cities and killing children in the U.S..... Just sit back and let an advancing army, warships or fighter jets continue the unprovoked destruction? Watch your country get destroyed? So was it wrong to bomb German cities to stop Hitler? Those Allied planes killed innocent people as well, as did German planes bombing Britain. Seem to recall a M*A*S*H episode where the deaths his bombings cause make a fighter pilot almost lose his mind, refuse to fly the planes anymore and claim he's a Christ-like figure... This was an ep. that had Frank Burns in it. Sounds fine to you shows how lacking your so called Christian morals have left you. Dust, I have morals as do you, so please don't attack my religious beliefs. Nowhere have I claimed to be superior to you in any way. Am not one to "push" my religious views on others, but I am certainly capable of explaining and defending them, as are you. If we met in person, we could get along and have a laugh or two about women (I've seen your posts). I don't attack people for their beliefs nor mistreat them, regardless of their religious or political views.
Author Dust Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Nowhere in my post did I support mass murder or genocide. Of course, that situation was murky. You think Pres. Truman didn't agonize over that decision? Still, would be hard-pressed to blame a leader for trying to stop invading airplanes from bombing cities and killing children in the U.S..... Just sit back and let an advancing army, warships or fighter jets continue the unprovoked destruction? Watch your country get destroyed? So was it wrong to bomb German cities to stop Hitler? Those Allied planes killed innocent people as well, as did German planes bombing Britain. Seem to recall a M*A*S*H episode where the deaths his bombings cause make a fighter pilot almost lose his mind, refuse to fly the planes anymore and claim he's a Christ-like figure... This was an ep. that had Frank Burns in it. Dust, I have morals as do you, so please don't attack my religious beliefs. Nowhere have I claimed to be superior to you in any way. Am not one to "push" my religious views on others, but I am certainly capable of explaining and defending them, as are you. If we met in person, we could get along and have a laugh or two about women (I've seen your posts). I don't attack people for their beliefs nor mistreat them, regardless of their religious or political views. I think there are very smart people involved with religion. People much smarter then I. The problem I have is when it is taken literally regardless if the person is richer, smarter, better then me. I don’t care. I respect plenty of religious figures etc. I respect people who politically disagree with me as well. I just completely disagree with a lot of things. Maybe there is a heaven and I’m sure it comforts people to believe in it. The problem I have is the moral/religious superiority I often witness. That is undeniable. Does that invalidate an entire religion, no of course not. You could even have every person who is Christian turn out to be evil Aholes and that in itself wouldn’t invalidate it. I’m just saying I don’t believe in the way some people take their religions literally. Since I live in the USA I’ve focused that thought on Christianity. That’s all I’m saying. I never meant to personally insult any one. I’m sure I would like you given that chance. The thing I don’t like is to be demanded to respect a literal interpretation of a religion. Heck its my right to call a religion out right insane if I’d like. Obviously I don’t feel I would have the freedom to show up at a funeral, or a weding, or even bible study and disrupt the entire thing. To come on here and do it should be fine though. It says something when peope get so insulted by that. I do have problem with that.
Taramere Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) These people have intelligence so can pick our locks, trick us, or even marry us before showing their true face. It’s scary. That’s the aim of religion. Turn to it out of fear. You’re supposed to fear god. It’s considered arrogant to laugh or joke about it and be anything but scared of gods supposed all mighty power. I see positives in this, but I see more negatives. Organised religion has certainly been used as a whip to bring people into line. When Andrea Yates drowned her children on after the other as they fought to survive I didn’t think she was evil. I thought there is a broken person. She did it because she was part of some Christian cult that led her to believe people were be corrupted and going to hell. She took that to an extreme and figured her children might be corrupted so if she killed them they would be pure and go to heaven and in fact she was doing them a favor even though they fought and did what little they could to survive as they were slaughtered one by one. Was she evil? I don’t think so, I think she went insane, lost her humanity and became more animal. I don’t know why, but to say it was the devil just is a thought ending pointless analysis that leads no where. From what I understand, Andrea Yates was diagnosed as suffering from extreme depression and psychosis. Very different from psychopathy. There's irrationality involved in psychosis. Delusions - hallucinations even. So yes, that's somebody who is mentally ill. Psychopathy is an antisocial behavioural disorder that's considered incurable...but the psychopath is rational. They know that by society's standards what they're doing is wrong, but they just don't care. Other people's misery, fear or distress isn't something that incites an empathic and emotional reaction in them. It only incites curiosity. Somebody like Dr Mengele, who performed those horrific experiments on people in the concentration camps. Just a complete absence of humanity which amounts to evil. I do believe the bible helps. I just think the focus should be more like a profession. In a profession people make promises and take public oaths to uphold ethical boundaries and follow ethical rules and professional conduct must be ensured. We need something like the bible, but really the focus should be on being good to one another and the rewards that come with caring and being cared for. Yes. I suppose that generally in the West we live in quite secure feeling environments. Some might live in rough areas where there's often violence...but nothing compared to, say, the Congo or Zimbabwe. We might think that our ethics and principles are often tested. Maybe we'll risk our jobs and our careers for a principle, and feel ethical for doing so....and it is ethical, but it'sd not ethical on the level that somebody who risks losing their life or (which is probably worse) risks being put through torture because of their principles is being ethical. In a country where you're told "you must join us. You must torture and kill these people we call our enemies, or you yourself will be tortured and killed..." what do you do? I think many people who believe they are good, kind people would probably start doing whatever it took to save their own skin. Which is primarily how evil is perpetuated. Through fear. One only needs to consider history, and watch it repeat itself over and over around the globe to know that however courageous people are in theory, in practice evil is perpetuated over and over again because greed, fear and self interest results in people allowing evil to flourish unchallenged. In times when people have engaged in these David and Goliath type battles, they've often had a spiritual faith that kept them going. You can see a very recent example of that in the book Mugabe and the White African. Live by the sword, die by the sword. By being violent and uncaring you create the same for yourself or at minimum make that end much more likely unless you change. I don’t see what believing in magical rewards and punishment in the afterlife do to add to that. People should be taught to be good for the immediate and real rewards that should be the focus. Not magic. Some people force themselves into a state of being violent and uncaring because they don't see any choice for themselves. Those young boys in Africa who get abducted and turned into killing machines. War brutalises people. So does fear and hunger. I think to resist turning into that in desperate circumstances takes more than simply not being an evil person or wanting to be a good one. For many of us in the modern day West, the question of religion isn't relevant because we're not in the kind of circumstances that people historically used spiritual faith to get through. To try to do the right thing - however hard it was. We're very lucky in that respect. For now, at least. Even so, in our luxurious and pampered state, you can see on this very board how people angst and complain about "maybe I should become an arsehole or a bitch in order get the things/people I want and stop others from taking advantage of me.." God knows, really, how most of us would turn out if our morals and courage were really put to the test. Well that’s a big debate in the United States. Some people feel its important for science class time to be filled with philosophy and religion passed off as scientific theory. Talk about the theory of a creator intelligently designing the universe in church not the science class room. What next talking about an intelligent designer in the math class curriculum. Its absurd and just proves my point at how literally the bible is being taken and to great harm. I've heard about that being an issue in the US. I agree that if a school is to deliver religious teaching, it should be kept entirely separate from the sciences and be categorised under something like moral, spiritual or religious development. Edited July 4, 2011 by Taramere
Floridaman Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) I think there are very smart people involved with religion. People much smarter then I. The problem I have is when it is taken literally regardless if the person is richer, smarter, better then me. I don’t care. I respect plenty of religious figures etc. I respect people who politically disagree with me as well. I just completely disagree with a lot of things. Maybe there is a heaven and I’m sure it comforts people to believe in it. The problem I have is the moral/religious superiority I often witness. That is undeniable. Does that invalidate an entire religion, no of course not. You could even have every person who is Christian turn out to be evil Aholes and that in itself wouldn’t invalidate it. I’m just saying I don’t believe in the way some people take their religions literally. Since I live in the USA I’ve focused that thought on Christianity. That’s all I’m saying. I see. That's a good explanation and an open-minded view there. I never meant to personally insult any one. I’m sure I would like you given that chance. Good as well. I know we can be friends. Just don't take things too personally and post stuff in the heat of argument, as things can get taken the wrong way and get over-heated in these threads. (Am talking about things posted in the "I wonder if I could have nailed that religious woman" thread). Apologize here if I came off too passionately in that cited thread. I'm not perfect and always have trouble adhering to the "morals" I subscribe to enough already... esp. with women I dated (Read the recent entries to the "Long-time Refused...." thread I started...) http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3493984&postcount=129 The thing I don’t like is to be demanded to respect a literal interpretation of a religion. Heck its my right to call a religion out right insane if I’d like. Obviously I don’t feel I would have the freedom to show up at a funeral, or a weding, or even bible study and disrupt the entire thing. To come on here and do it should be fine though. It says something when peope get so insulted by that. I do have problem with that. Makes sense. It's never proper to invade other peoples' space and get in their faces, regardless of one's motives. Edited July 5, 2011 by Floridaman added link to thread...
ArthurH Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 I woke up dead once, they say I stayed that way for almost 11 minutes.... Waking up dead tends to give one a slightly different perspective on things.... Having said that People act as if the Bible just sorta fell out of the sky one day..... Ever seen the movie "Zardoz"? Ever done any reading/research into how the Bible came to be? Ever asked how anybody knows just who actually wrote what when? And hey, don't forget to ask about who it was actually written for, and how it came to be the confused blend collection of history and fairy tale that it is. And just what about, and just what are, and just what happened to all the texts that were considered (and just who did the considering and how did they come to do just that, and why did they too?) but didn't make it into the "final cut" that ended up so convincingly falling out of the sky one day. After you have read and researched all of that, watch the "Zardoz" movie again..... All myth based religions, and yes my fellow good Americans, that includes even Christianity too, are little more than fantasy land collections of fairy tales and myth and collectively are a little more than a big crock pot full of not a lot..... There is no old dude hanging round anywhere, there is no goddess of anything waiting on anybody, there is no he she they or it...... Bad things don't happen to people because the mean old God that loves you so much decided that he/she/they/it needed to torture you as part of some bizarre plan that others will love he/she/they/it even more through your suffering..... They happen for just two reasons.... sometimes just because, and sometimes because of the person you were before you became the person you are today. "The Universe" is more than where you think you are..... It's all a quantum thing.... If it can be, it most likely has is or will be if it's already not. We part of a multiverse full of universe just like and completely different than the one we think we are all alone in...... .....it never ends.... Time never ends Ashes to ashes Dust to dust Things just happen 'Cause something must You want to know what God is? You know how the Moon goes around the Earth? You know how the Earth goes around the Sun? You know how the Solar System revolves around some big black hole at the center of the Milky Way? You know how the galaxy revolves around some strange galactic cluster center? Now, think about the entire collection of everything currently thought to be all of everything revolving around something else that has other collections of all of everything revolving around it...... Now, carry that same thought on, and on, and on....... Now when you get to something so vast and grand that there cannot possibly even in a quantum multiverse be anything at all larger, and THAT is God Take an planet, hit it with a hammer Take an atom, hit it with a hammer Take a proton, hit it with a hammer Take a quark, hit it with a hammer Take a gluon, hit it with a hammer Hmmmm, take whatever you get then and hit it with a hammer If you get a string, hit it with a hammer When you get to something so small that when you hit whatever everything ends up being made of you cannot possibly, even in a quantum multiverse get anything smaller, THAT is God See how easy it is? The why is just because. The best we can do is to figure out the why of what the what is. 1) "Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances." "Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion." "Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good." - The Buddha 2) "I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian." Mahatma Gandhi Young India (19 January 1928) 3) "There's God, and then there's religion. Try not to ever confuse the two" Me 4) And for any of y'all Tea Party lunatics out there, a few words from one of all y'alls favorite "Founding Fathers" " And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter. "
Disillusioned Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 How about putting the question to someone who's familiar with another religion which has nothing to do with Christianity? Namely, Confucianism. It's very difficult to read the Analects of Confucius and think there's anything in there at all that sounds like a hallucination. I own a copy and I've read it twice. OTOH how can we prove the ancient Mid-Easterners weren't having visions from eating ergot-infested bread or morning glory seeds? We know the Oracle of Delphi was an acidhead.
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