So he gets a lap dance after you've already discussed it crosses your boundaries...

June 16, 2011

I absolutely love this thread.

Before I get into the minor issues....I believe that this relationship probably won't last. The reason I say that is because....when a BIG trust is broken...and regardless of how everyone feels...to HER it was...she is going to look at the relationship differently from now on. Her "rose colored glasses" have come off...and now she is going to be analyzing his behavior in a different way. And if she is hurt...she will probably treat him differently as well. The relationship is going to change dramatically if it continues...and usually that kind of change isn't handled well...and the relationship ends.

As a side note...the guy I am dating recently brought up the issue of strip clubs. He has a couple friends who go regularly...but he told me back in college he had a couple of lap dances. But he said one of the times...the stripper told him she got off in an hour and he should wait for her. He didn't...and was grossed out.

So as much as this IS an issue of boundaries being crossed....it's more than that. I think knowing that your boyfriend is going out to look at naked women...and will be turned on by them is unsettling for some women. Whether you are one of those people or not, you have to understand that a woman does have a right to feel that way.

One guy I dated was like..."you should go with me to a strip club." And I said...ok...well then you come with me to a male strip club and sit there and watch while I get turned on by another naked guy, ok? Then he wasn't so keen on the strip club idea.

June 16, 2011

I do appreciate all of the replies and I've gained a lot of insight from quite a bit of them. I was surprised to see a few (mind, a few, not a lot) where some people thought it was ridiculous to even be mad at the guy. Though they had some proper insight as well.
It proved to be an interesting thread I think.

No update on Liza (friend I OP'd about) yet.

Whoa, I had to do a double take here as I had not realized that you are the OP. Im a little surprised since you usually are the one giving advice, not asking

Anyhoo, I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, it was meant to be a bit light hearted. But what is not light hearted is deal breakers. We all need to have certain things we guard ourselves from, and if an established boundry is crossed that is a very, very big deal.

June 16, 2011

Whoa, I had to do a double take here as I had not realized that you are the OP. Im a little surprised since you usually are the one giving advice, not asking

Anyhoo, I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way, it was meant to be a bit light hearted. But what is not light hearted is deal breakers. We all need to have certain things we guard ourselves from, and if an established boundry is crossed that is a very, very big deal.

No worries - I'm pretty confident I know what I would do if this was my relationship and she knows that as well. She and I are pretty much on the same page when it comes to our boundaries. However - she knows my stance and she was pushing me for more advice or to give her other perspectives. I thought this would be the perfect place to come to.

June 16, 2011

No update on Liza (friend I OP'd about) yet.

I'm dying for an update because I'm not one who likes to speculate too long on real events. I like to know what happened.

June 16, 2011

Edit double post: Are you going to share the thread with your friend? Or do you want to keep Love Shack for you and you alone.

June 16, 2011

Edit double post: Are you going to share the thread with your friend? Or do you want to keep Love Shack for you and you alone.

Hmmm - Good point. I like to keep this as anonymous as possible but I think she could learn a great deal from it.

If I mentioned it to her she would no doubt see this post and probably know it was me.

June 16, 2011

So now we've learned that you dont ever want to have a relationship with a woman, what else have we learned?

And I guess you are looking for your guy to cheat because you feel the need to totally emasculate him? Or maybe you just found a total tool who will do whatever it takes to please you, there are plenty of them out there. Think whatever you want about bachelor parties, they are good, they are bad, they are unevolved and should be sent the way of sacrificing virgins to the gods but for now it's the chosen venue for honoring a male friend before he gets married. Be smart enough to give him a one lap dance pass for just that night. Or end up in the fun position vsminis friend finds herself in.

Why do you think it's so unreasonable for one partner to ask the other partner to agree to not do things that they know will hurt them and make them feel bad? Anyway, he was free to not agree. As you said, you'd have been gone in a nanosecond. I imagine he could have done the same, I didn't hear any mention of leg irons.

Anyway, to answer your question, I have been to strip clubs, male and female, gay and straight and in-between. I had a roommate and a couple other friends who worked in strip clubs in various capacities, and thus I've been to strip clubs in multiple countries on multiple continents. I am well aware of what goes on in many strip clubs.

I sometimes wonder why some men feel so passionate about retaining their right to have naked women on their lap and not have to feel bad about it, that they try to make women in general feel they should be ashamed about having a reaction to that. The irony is rather rich, when they sit loudly proclaiming that they will shame and judge anyone who doesn't change their behavior and feelings because they're so righteously angry about other people wanting their behavior and feelings to change. Dude, all you have to say is that it's mega-important to YOU, and then go looking for a woman who's on the same page as you. You don't have to try to make all women everywhere feel like they're being horribly emasculating harridans for not liking strip clubs, that's really kind of silly. The whole world doesn't react within the exact emotional parameters you have set for yourself.

My man is on the same page as me here, which is a good thing. It's something we'll never fight about, because it's not an issue, because we're on the same page. If this girl from the OP decides she would rather be with a man who's on the same page as her, more power to her.

I wasn't able to attend an office party my girlfriend was having a few months ago, so she went alone. I know some guys probably drank a little too much and made a few passes at her which makes me very uncomfortable, but oh well. It would have been unprofessional for her not to attend, so I swallowed my discomfort and off she went. You have to do that sometimes in a relationship to make it work, women included. Social and work obligations sometimes call for compromise.

This guy wasn't looking for a lap dance the minute he walked into the club, he didn't even pay for it. His friends demanded a sign that he wasn't pussy whipped and the one lap dance provided that. I think the fact that he agreed and then broke his agreement shows he's immature rather then some kind of lying scumbag. He obviously didn't know the correct way to deal with his girlfriend's demand and the whole situation at the bachelor party. Even so, you can't put up with that kind of disrespect from a man so she has to punish him in someway.

Then he should have had the balls and integrity to say to his girlfriend, "No, I won't agree not to get any lap dances." Then it's up to her whether she wants to accept that or not. But to agree to refrain from doing something, and then do it anyway, is inexcusable.

That's why I said in my next paragraph that you were right and he shouldn't have agreed.

Yeah, this is even worse. He let his friends strong-arm him into doing something that makes him feel like a low-life. He has a weak backbone and makes commitments he doesn't keep. So, he's a wimp who is unsure of himself and his own boundaries. Doormat tendencies are some of the most unattractive qualities in men or women.

He does sound like kind of a people pleaser. Who knows if it really makes him feel dirty or he just thought that was something the girlfriend wanted to hear.

June 16, 2011

And I guess you are looking for your guy to cheat because you feel the need to totally emasculate him? Or maybe you just found a total tool who will do whatever it takes to please you, there are plenty of them out there. Think whatever you want about bachelor parties, they are good, they are bad, they are unevolved and should be sent the way of sacrificing virgins to the gods but for now it's the chosen venue for honoring a male friend before he gets married. Be smart enough to give him a one lap dance pass for just that night. Or end up in the fun position vsminis friend finds herself in.

.... It's gotta be difficult being you.

June 16, 2011

I would also be conflicted just as she is if this was happening in my relationship and I assure you that the only deeper issue that is manifesting is that I'm a girl that knows her boundaries and would not want them crossed again down the line. Because as others have said - it often leads to cheating and more crap down the road and I would rather be single than be with someone that crosses mutual, previously agreed upon boundaries. I've been in relationships before where the crossed boundary started out "small", like a lap dance, gave a second chance and boom - big mistake. I live and learn. I don't live and repeat mistakes.

Thing is, maybe he would live and learn too. Isn't it worth considering forgiveness at least once to see if he would not repeat his mistakes?

I do think if a boundary is repeatedly crossed (more than once) then yes, that's serious and time to let go.

But a one-time "offense"? Zero-tolerance - blow off a whole good solid year-long relationship? Isn't it assuming the worst, that the one lap dance (at a bachelor party with significant peer pressure in effect) is in effect "gateway" cheating and will slide into more of the same or worse behaviors?

Has this guy had any other indications he would continue engaging in similar behavior?

June 16, 2011

I would hate for my bf to have a lapdance, but I can imagine in that situation it must be awfully hard for a guy to refuse one, when it has already been paid for, when it isn't like he's kissing the dancer or anything. I wouldn't realistically have a problem with my bf doing that, I'd probably want a kiss and a couple of words of reassurance about the fact that he didn't initiate it afterwards but I couldn't expect him not to partake.

But anyway those are my standards. Your friend laid down a deal breaker, and he broke it. He COULD have refused and walked away but he put getting the lapdance above his girlfriend's feelings. Maybe at that time, drunk maybe, he thought it was better to lose the relationship than lose the respect of his friends. Or maybe he didn't believe she'd stick to it and leave him over it anyway.

June 16, 2011

I would hate for my bf to have a lapdance, but I can imagine in that situation it must be awfully hard for a guy to refuse one, when it has already been paid for, when it isn't like he's kissing the dancer or anything. I wouldn't realistically have a problem with my bf doing that, I'd probably want a kiss and a couple of words of reassurance about the fact that he didn't initiate it afterwards but I couldn't expect him not to partake.QUOTE]

Guys common.. He had a lapdance: a woman rubbing her goodies against his private parts, that's a big deal. I can imagine him feeling uncomfertable not accepting the lapdance in this situation, but he's a grown up man, he can deal with it.

I'm not saying she shouldn't forgive him, but she has to think about her feelings first before thinking about his in this situation, because he obviously put his own feelings before hers;) And someone has to think about her feelings.. Chances are the guy didn't enjoy the lapdance, but he will have to apologize..

You know what really bothers me.. Some people (I'm tempted to say men instead of 'some people', but I won't) regret doing something after it already happened of regret something only if they get caught. This really annoys me: if you care about someone you shouldn't do it, for the simple reason that their feelings are important to you. That has nothing to do with me being demanding or anything, it's an important part of love.

I hope this was a 1 time thing and I hope your friend and this guy will be happy together!

June 17, 2011

Gaius

I wasn't able to attend an office party my girlfriend was having a few months ago, so she went alone. I know some guys probably drank a little too much and made a few passes at her which makes me very uncomfortable, but oh well. It would have been unprofessional for her not to attend, so I swallowed my discomfort and off she went. You have to do that sometimes in a relationship to make it work, women included. Social and work obligations sometimes call for compromise.

Are you seriously comparing them? If those guys were grinding their crotches against hers and she allowed it and liked it.....would you be ok then? Because only in that scenario does it even resemble what a lap dance is to your girlfriend's office party.

Please. Totally lame comparison. Funny thing is - I wouldn't have an issue at all with my boyfriend going to an office party and some girls taking a pass at him. I think it's odd that you find that uncomfortable if you're spouting how secure everyone else should be. An office party would be nothing to sweat over at all. To each their own. But you really can't compare.

June 17, 2011

how on earth is this thread still going lol.

honestly i hope she DOES leave him for this, b/c the dude obv deserves better. the thought of a chick leaving a dude just b/c he partook in a male tradition that most normal females would have no issue with, is ludacrist! go find a better girl! an innocent lapdance that his friend bought him and thats grounds for dumping him? wow.

June 17, 2011

Gaius

Are you seriously comparing them? If those guys were grinding their crotches against hers and she allowed it and liked it.....would you be ok then? Because only in that scenario does it even resemble what a lap dance is to your girlfriend's office party.

But grinding crotches at an office party with a co-worker is very different than a one-time paid professional stripper at a bachelor party where it's not unusual for lap dances to occur. This was, after all, a BACHELOR party. Yes boundaries were crossed but do you understand how the context makes a difference? At least to me it does.

I doubt he kissed her, he was probably fully clothed, and most likely she was doing her dance and sauntered over his way. I also doubt that he initiated it. Can you imagine him pushing her off his lap in front of his friends? Ideally yes he would have but, can you see how the scenario could have unfolded where it has absolutely nothing to do with his propensity to cheat in the future?

Or is the issue not that she's worried about future cheating but that he did something she asked him not to do? And now she thinks he ultimately disrespects her and will ignore her future boundary issues (whether it has to do with cheating or some other entirely unrelated matter)? There is a fine line here. If it's more a matter of disrespect then I can understand. But the fact that he crossed the line doesn't automatically mean he disrespects her.

June 17, 2011

But grinding crotches at an office party with a co-worker is very different than a one-time paid professional stripper at a bachelor party where it's not unusual for lap dances to occur. This was, after all, a BACHELOR party. Yes boundaries were crossed but do you understand how the context makes a difference? At least to me it does.

I doubt he kissed her, he was probably fully clothed, and most likely she was doing her dance and sauntered over his way. I also doubt that he initiated it. Can you imagine him pushing her off his lap in front of his friends? Ideally yes he would have but, can you see how the scenario could have unfolded where it has absolutely nothing to do with his propensity to cheat in the future?

Or is the issue not that she's worried about future cheating but that he did something she asked him not to do? And now she thinks he ultimately disrespects her and will ignore her future boundary issues (whether it has to do with cheating or some other entirely unrelated matter)? There is a fine line here. If it's more a matter of disrespect then I can understand. But the fact that he crossed the line doesn't automatically mean he disrespects her.

When you previously agree that crossing that line means disrespect...yes that means disrespect. And.....it doesn't have to get to the point where he's pushing her off. You can always decline quietly. No need to make some obnoxious scene.

And yes - she is worried about future instances where next time it will be cheating. Since he agreed to this and went ahead and did it....so much is my guess for what he does in the future. Trust has been breached.

But he didn't decline - he let it happen - he didn't want to look like a wimp in front of his friends. That was obviously very important to him.

Previously agreed upon boundaries and disrespect are just that. You can change the location all you want but when it's already been talked about and agreed upon by BOTH parties....it doesn't give you any wiggle room.

And when you think something is inappropriate all around - it doesn't matter if it's just because it's a bachelor party. Oh - this really bothers me and makes me feel disrespected but since it's your XYZ's bachelor party....OK! NO - if you're not ok with it you won't be ok with it on a tuesday, wednesday or bachelor night.

Edited June 17, 2011 by vsmini

June 17, 2011

When you previously agree that crossing that line means disrespect...yes that means disrespect. And.....it doesn't have to get to the point where he's pushing her off. You can always decline quietly. No need to make some obnoxious scene.

But he didn't decline - he let it happen - he didn't want to look like a wimp in front of his friends. That was obviously very important to him.

Previously agreed upon boundaries and disrespect are just that. You can change the location all you want but when it's already been talked about and agreed upon by BOTH parties....it doesn't give you any wiggle room.

She can state what her line is, but she's making a lot of assumptions, and not accounting for human fallability at all. In other words, following the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. I think she's not taking the context into account (and yes, for me personally, context DOES matter... bachelor party is way different than just going to a strip club. For example, most women who wouldn't normally be happy with their significant others seeing strippers WILL be fine with it in the context of a bachelor party.) and it would be extreme to break off it off over this. But obviously that's just my opinion. Apparently she feels much stronger about it than I ever would.

Edited June 17, 2011 by OliveOyl

June 17, 2011

how on earth is this thread still going lol.

honestly i hope she DOES leave him for this, b/c the dude obv deserves better. the thought of a chick leaving a dude just b/c he partook in a male tradition that most normal females would have no issue with, is ludacrist! go find a better girl! an innocent lapdance that his friend bought him and thats grounds for dumping him? wow.

It's funny how adding some of these words can make it seem like it's okay. I don't think she NEEDS to leave him, however if this 'dude' appeared to have the same way of talking things right that you have, I would probably pray she would leave him.

If my friend would by me a dance from a male stripper I would happily say no. What an idiot the friend is... But the guy could have just given the lapdance gift back to him;)

As for the tradition goes...amish have traditions, native americans have traditions, chinese people have traditions, europeans have traditions, hack even the inca's had traditions. Some of them are nice some of them aren't, but saying something is tradition is NEVER a reason for why something is okay;)

I'll bet you that 99% of women don't like it and that over 70% of women don't allow it. The women that do allow it, but don't like it, why on earth would you want to hurt them?

What is innocent to you? It's innocent in a way that it doesn't kill you and it doesn't give you a disease. Maybe you would be okay with it if a male stripper would be rubbing his 'manhood' against your girl while she's gladly enjoying it, if that's the case: I hope you'll find a girl that belongs to the 1% that is okay with you recieving lapdances;) Other wise: be a man, don't be a hypocrite, learn to love and you'll be one of the happiest people alive;)

June 17, 2011

As for the tradition goes...amish have traditions, native americans have traditions, chinese people have traditions, europeans have traditions, hack even the inca's had traditions. Some of them are nice some of them aren't, but saying something is tradition is NEVER a reason for why something is okay;)

But many things are only appropriate given the context of tradition and inappropriate otherwise. If I gave a close friend a Hallmark card on a day other than a holiday, he might think it was weird. If I don't give my close friend a Hallmark card on their birthday, he might think it's weird.

It's expected that at bachelor parties, there can be strippers. In this context... it is considered "normal."

June 17, 2011

But many things are only appropriate given the context of tradition and inappropriate otherwise. If I gave a close friend a Hallmark card on a day other than a holiday, he might think it was weird. If I don't give my close friend a Hallmark card on their birthday, he might think it's weird.

It's expected that at bachelor parties, there can be strippers. In this context... it is considered "normal."

I cannot speak for the U.S, since I don't live there, but in Europe it's not normal to do this. It's a retarded tradition and if my fiancee would get a lapdance or go to a stripclub the night before we got married, the wedding would be of;)

What a bunch of cr*p, you should be celebrating your marriage, not celebrating being single, while cheating on your fiancee;)

As far as the hallmark cards go: I send cards whenever I feel like it, I send cards whenever I want to tell someone how much I apreciate them and I sometimes don't send a card on a birthday, just because sometimes I like it better to say it in person;)

If you're this influenced by traditions, it means you're not a strong person in this area of your life;)

June 17, 2011

It was a bachelor party....come on... who cares...

So what if he got a quick thrill from another lady....he's bound for one pussy the rest of his life....give em a break.

It was a bachelor party.... come on... the love of his life cares...

He recieved a lapdance from a stripper.... He agreed to being faithfull to her, sharing all his love with her and spending the rest of his life with her.... He's defenitly one the right way if he wants a 'break'.

June 17, 2011

It was a god damn bachelor party, he got a lap dance, big f'cking deal!

What does love mean to you? Have you ever been in love?

And even if you think it's a not a big deal, I'm thinking being a man-woman of your word is important to everyone, right?

June 17, 2011

10 years of illusion and a lifetime of heart-break over some others stupid confines of how you now should live without pissing them off to much.

That is what it means to me.

... thats a really bad association you have of love. I don't think it should be like that;) I don't know what it IS supposed to be like, bit that's not it for sure;) But don't you think that if your experience with love, would have been a lot better, that you wouldn't want to hurt your GF/wife?

I think the guy did something stupid and as long as he realizes it and doesn't do it again, it'll be just fine;)

June 17, 2011

But many things are only appropriate given the context of tradition and inappropriate otherwise. If I gave a close friend a Hallmark card on a day other than a holiday, he might think it was weird. If I don't give my close friend a Hallmark card on their birthday, he might think it's weird.

It's expected that at bachelor parties, there can be strippers. In this context... it is considered "normal."

That's really great and all but in the context of their relationship and what was agreed upon in their lives - it was inappropriate. Why are you not getting that not everyone shares the same values and or beliefs about things? Why can't you get it? Even after he did it he says he made a mistake and feels awful.

Are you now going to tell him to change his belief because it's expected at parties? We're dealing with PERSONAL beliefs. That means personal. Srsly - there's no way you cannot understand that at this point.

"well he did it anyway." you'll say so obviously it's ok because of context and tradition and everything else.

Well he feels sorry for it.

The guy I'm with says they're inappropriate - that his mother raised him right and to respect women (his words - not mine). If context is 100% infallible then I guess he is wrong. That he should change his personal beliefs because it's considered ok in that kind of context.

Edited June 17, 2011 by vsmini

June 17, 2011

That's really great and all but in the context of their relationship and what was agreed upon in their lives - it was inappropriate. Why are you not getting that not everyone shares the same values and or beliefs about things? Why can't you get it? Even after he did it he says he made a mistake and feels awful.

Are you now going to tell him to change his belief because it's expected at parties? We're dealing with PERSONAL beliefs. That means personal. Srsly - there's no way you cannot understand that at this point.

"well he did it anyway." you'll say so obviously it's ok because of context and tradition and everything else.
Well he feels sorry for it.

The guy I'm with says they're inappropriate - that his mother raised him right and to respect women (his words - not mine). If context is 100% infallible then I guess he is wrong. That he should change his personal beliefs because it's considered ok in that kind of context.

Just to be clear, is your opinion that she should break up with him?

June 17, 2011

That's really great and all but in the context of their relationship and what was agreed upon in their lives - it was inappropriate. Why are you not getting that not everyone shares the same values and or beliefs about things? Why can't you get it? Even after he did it he says he made a mistake and feels awful.

Are you now going to tell him to change his belief because it's expected at parties? We're dealing with PERSONAL beliefs. That means personal. Srsly - there's no way you cannot understand that at this point.

"well he did it anyway." you'll say so obviously it's ok because of context and tradition and everything else.
Well he feels sorry for it.

The guy I'm with says they're inappropriate - that his mother raised him right and to respect women (his words - not mine). If context is 100% infallible then I guess he is wrong. That he should change his personal beliefs because it's considered ok in that kind of context.

I do get it, and I don't think it's "okay". I just happen to disagree with the zero tolerance displayed here -- planning to dump him given the context of the bachelor party AND additionally the fact that he's very apologetic adds further weight. He made a horrible mistake. He knows it but too bad because apparently she's not even going to give him a second chance and see if he can learn from the mistake.

I'm not saying it's okay at all. However, this level of cheating/boundary crossing is nowhere on the same level of the very intentional cheating discussed throughout various sections of this board. And you will see people saying that it IS possible to pull through even those types of serious relationship breakdowns. I could understand her dumping him over one instance of THAT type of real cheating. But this? Still sounds to me like there is more going on that hasn't been revealed.

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So he gets a lap dance after you've already discussed it crosses your boundaries...

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