So he gets a lap dance after you've already discussed it crosses your boundaries...

[vsmini]

I have relationships in which neither of us tries to micromanage the other person and no one holds things against each other. We treat each other as adults and respect each other as individuals.

 

You should give it a try some time. It's nice.

 

Funny because I'm doing the exact same thing in my relationship. You're right. It's very nice for the both of us.

[EasyHeart]

But the issue here is not the lap dance. It's the fact that he made a promise and broke it. THAT is the real problem.

That's true, but we don't know what really happened here; we just know what the OP said her friend said happened.

 

Whenever people ask for advice, they frame the question in such a way that they get the answer they want you to give them. Whenever real-life friends ask me for advice, I spend a good deal of time cross-examining them to find out what REALLY happened, and 99% of the time it's not the story they started with. One of the problems with this thread is that we can't find out what really happened.

[tigressA]

It's the difference between actively wanting and pursuing it and being put in a position where its not your choice and socially expected.

 

I don't know how things played out that night. Did the guy ask his cousin to pay for his lap dance? Doubtful. Did the cousin ask his permission before buying the lap dance? Also doubtful.

 

When the girl shows up and all the guys are yelling and ribbing each other, should he have made a scene and stomped out? No. Sorry, I just don't think it was that big of a deal. And as I (and others) have stated, not all lap dances involve contact.

 

I wouldn't like it if my guy had a lap dance. Don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't throw a hissy about it either.

 

But the issue here is not the lap dance. It's the fact that he made a promise and broke it. THAT is the real problem.

 

Not his choice? Oh, Jesus Christ. :rolleyes: And he wouldn't have had to "make a scene and stomp out." He could've just said no and the stripper could've danced on someone else!

[EasyHeart]

Funny because I'm doing the exact same thing in my relationship. You're right. It's very nice for the both of us.

We'd have to ask him about that. . . .

[vsmini]

That's true, but we don't know what really happened here; we just know what the OP said her friend said happened.

 

Whenever people ask for advice, they frame the question in such a way that they get the answer they want you to give them. Whenever real-life friends ask me for advice, I spend a good deal of time cross-examining them to find out what REALLY happened, and 99% of the time it's not the story they started with. One of the problems with this thread is that we can't find out what really happened.

 

What I know and what I've said is

guy and girl have been dating one year. 4 months ago they discussed things that they thought were boundary and/or deal breakers. Lap dances came up. He told her they make him feel dirty and like a low-life after he'd had them in the past. She stated she thinks it's disrespectful. He agreed.

 

He goes off to cousin's party and comes home and tells her. He feels awful and said he knows he broke a boundary but he was caught in the heat of the moment and pressure from his friends got to him.

 

She is upset because she thought they were on the same page on this issue because he blatantly told her he was on the same page with her.

 

From my understanding of her relationship the guy has never said he has felt controlled by her or like he's in a prison. He has made boundaries for himself clear as well.

 

The entire situation stands - based on what I've told you and what I'm asking comments for - that these are two people who have expressed their boundaries, both believing in the idea of having boundaries and one of them crossing it.

 

Making points about "boundaries" being silly is really a moot point when it comes to this couple and their circumstance since the man involved has agreed that they are important in their relationship.

[vsmini]

We'd have to ask him about that. . . .

 

Seriously - now you're just being a sh*t stirrer.

[EasyHeart]

Seriously - now you're just being a sh*t stirrer.

You haven't exactly been civil. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

[EasyHeart]

What I know and what I've said is

guy and girl have been dating one year. 4 months ago they discussed things that they thought were boundary and/or deal breakers. Lap dances came up. He told her they make him feel dirty and like a low-life after he'd had them in the past. She stated she thinks it's disrespectful. He agreed.

 

He goes off to cousin's party and comes home and tells her. He feels awful and said he knows he broke a boundary but he was caught in the heat of the moment and pressure from his friends got to him.

 

She is upset because she thought they were on the same page on this issue because he blatantly told her he was on the same page with her.

 

From my understanding of her relationship the guy has never said he has felt controlled by her or like he's in a prison. He has made boundaries for himself clear as well.

 

The entire situation stands - based on what I've told you and what I'm asking comments for - that these are two people who have expressed their boundaries, both believing in the idea of having boundaries and one of them crossing it.

 

Making points about "boundaries" being silly is really a moot point when it comes to this couple and their circumstance since the man involved has agreed that they are important in their relationship.

But that's my point. You weren't there, so you don't know what actually happened; you only know what your friend told you. And the way she framed her story necessarily leads to the conclusion that she (and you) are seeking.

[PinkInTheLimo]

Lap dances came up. He told her they make him feel dirty and like a low-life after he'd had them in the past.

 

The mistake she made is that she should have asked him in the beginning of the relationship, before they became exclusive and had sex, if this was something he had done in the past. And if his answer was yes she should have stopped the relationship right there. Because if he is that kind of guy, he is a sleazeball and no relationship material.

 

Also, if lapdances make him feel like a low life, then why did he have more than one? I can get that a guy tries this to see what it is but going back? Not good.

 

This problem is going to pop up again, I am convinced. And who says he hasn't had one before they spoke about it.

 

He might be a nice guy but his attitude towards sex is flawed and this is very hard to change.

 

After having this info, I am even more convinced that she should dump him.

[tigressA]

What I know and what I've said is

guy and girl have been dating one year. 4 months ago they discussed things that they thought were boundary and/or deal breakers. Lap dances came up. He told her they make him feel dirty and like a low-life after he'd had them in the past. She stated she thinks it's disrespectful. He agreed.

 

He goes off to cousin's party and comes home and tells her. He feels awful and said he knows he broke a boundary but he was caught in the heat of the moment and pressure from his friends got to him.

 

What he said about lap dances makes what he did look even worse. Not only did he compromise his relationship, he compromised his self-respect, and all just to avoid getting ribbed by his friends. What a wimp. I hope your friend gets rid of him.

[vsmini]

But that's my point. You weren't there, so you don't know what actually happened; you only know what your friend told you. And the way she framed her story necessarily leads to the conclusion that she (and you) are seeking.

 

Yes but MY point is - I'm asking BASED on what I'm telling here. Even if I told you it was my story and I was 100% honest in everything I was posting and leaving nothing out....people would still find a way to say "well we don't really know if you're telling the truth" and just say that over and over. That's not really helpful.

 

What kind of facts does this girl seem to be leaving out? None that I can see - it all seems very realistic and straight forward.

[BetheButterfly]

...what do you do?

 

No trouble in paradise but I do have a friend who has the same views on strip clubs - lap dances in particular as I do - we consider it cheating. Yes - shocker of all shocks - having a naked woman grind her ass into your erection is cheating in my book.

 

She's made it clear that it's a boundary breaker and he agreed. He's never had one before but after 1 year of being together he goes off to his cousin's bachelor party and gets a lap dance that his cousin paid for. He came back and told her the second he got home and now she doesn't know what to do.

 

She said it was a boundary breaker (as I also agree) and it was broken...even after it's been discussed and the guy is aware that it's something she views as wrong.

 

She doesn't want to break up but she feels like she has had her trust broken and doesn't feel like it says much about her as a strong woman if he does something that she feels strongly against and still stays with him.

 

I tried to put myself in her shoes and I'm heartbroken for her as I would feel the same....i think I would at least.

 

This happened last night and she told him to leave her alone while she thinks about it.

 

Ladies? Thoughts? All I can seem to say to her is "I'm sorry, I don't know what to say."

 

 

I am not ok with lap dances, unless I am the one giving them and my fiance is the one on the receiving end lol.

 

This is a tough decision.

 

What is the level of committment? Is the guy her husband, fiance, or boyfriend?

 

If husband, I'd encourage her to work it out. Talk with him.

 

If fiance, I'd do an ultimatum. I'd encourage her to tell him if he's serious about wanting to marry her, he needs to be strong enough to say no to peer pressure. If not, they should not get married.

 

If boyfriend, I'd say break up.

 

Since it's something she feels serious about, serious enough to call it a dealbreaker, she needs to be strong and stand her ground, unless they are already married. Then they have a lot of serious talking/compromising to do.

[vsmini]

I am not ok with lap dances, unless I am the one giving them and my fiance is the one on the receiving end lol.

 

This is a tough decision.

 

What is the level of committment? Is the guy her husband, fiance, or boyfriend?

 

If husband, I'd encourage her to work it out. Talk with him.

 

If fiance, I'd do an ultimatum. I'd encourage her to tell him if he's serious about wanting to marry her, he needs to be strong enough to say no to peer pressure. If not, they should not get married.

 

If boyfriend, I'd say break up.

 

Since it's something she feels serious about, serious enough to call it a dealbreaker, she needs to be strong and stand her ground, unless they are already married. Then they have a lot of serious talking/compromising to do.

 

Boyfriend. He brought up the discussion marriage and says he would like to marry her in the next 12-18 months but has not proposed yet. He might be working on it. So it's a serious bf/gf relationship as I understand.

[Ruby Slippers]

Maybe he secretly doesn't want to be with a woman who puts him in the fun position of looking like a total tool in front of his friends or betraying his word to her.

Then he should have had the balls and integrity to say to his girlfriend, "No, I won't agree not to get any lap dances." Then it's up to her whether she wants to accept that or not. But to agree to refrain from doing something, and then do it anyway, is inexcusable.

 

I would break up with him.

I am in my mid-forties and I have given 2nd chances to men after they did something of which they knew very well that I did not accept it, and the only thing that happened is that they continued to do hurtful things.

Therefore I no longer give people more than one chance. My view is that someone who does not respect what is important for me, does not deserve me.

 

If she accepts this, she gives him the signal that this is OK.

Exactly. I have made the same stupid mistake in the past -- you make your boundaries clear, then the guy steps over them, and you allow it. And then, guess what? He continues to do it, because you've taught him it's OK and the boundaries aren't really boundaries.

 

One of my deal-breakers is lying. If a man lies to me, it's over. No integrity and trust = no point. I bent on this in the past, and the guy just kept telling me "little" lies. Last time I was involved with a guy who I found out had lied to me, it was over, and I have zero regrets about that.

 

If I ever had a girlfriend who dictated terms to me, I would be gone in a nanosecond. "Boundaries" seems to be a euphemism for "Sit, Rover, sit!"

Stating your boundaries and not letting them be stepped over is not dictatorial -- it's self-respecting. Men have boundaries, too. How about this one: You don't blow other men. Pretty simple, right? So let's say a woman goes to a bachelorette party, gets really drunk, and blows some guy in the club. Is this OK because of the circumstances? Is her boyfriend being a dictator or an animal trainer if he dumps her for it?

 

Went to a bachelor party with strippers a while ago. More than a few guys declined any contact with the girls.

 

No reason why your guy couldn't have done the same.

 

RF

QFT.

[carhill]

OP, as your thread starter discussed boundaries but not consequences, have you discerned if the friend communicated consequences for such boundary breakers? If yes, what are they?

 

As an example:

 

'If I discover that you have been unfaithful, I won't remain in a relationship with you. That's a deal-breaker'

 

'I personally find strip clubs distasteful and upsetting and would prefer that you avoid them while in a committed relationship with me. If you choose to go, or if I find out you have gone, I will reconsider how I feel about our commitment. Such an act would be a serious breach of my trust'

 

Now, the man doesn't have to agree and they can surely discuss but, in the example, both the boundaries and consequences have been clearly communicated. If he thinks they are unreasonable and 'list-y' or if she finds his response unacceptable, then the issue is irreconcilable and it would be best if they sought different partners or remain alone, IMO.

 

Each party's perspective is valid. The health of their relationship and its future depends on how they approach resolving it. Resolution has many paths. The responses by women in this thread underscore the breath of those paths. Each situation is unique.

 

What does the friend see as a reasonable resolution here?

[BetheButterfly]

Boyfriend. He brought up the discussion marriage and says he would like to marry her in the next 12-18 months but has not proposed yet. He might be working on it. So it's a serious bf/gf relationship as I understand.

 

Wow. So this is like a test then. He gets to see if she will sacrifice her feelings about this issue in order to keep him, and he gets to see what he can get away with.

 

 

I wish he were strong enough to have said no. Reminds me of the "Should've Said No" song by Taylor Swift...

 

"You can see that I've been crying

And baby you know all the right things: to say

But do you honestly expect me to believe

We could ever be the same...

You say that the past is the past, you need one chance

It was a moment of weakness and you said yes...

 

I can't resist... before you go, tell me this

Was it worth it...

Was she worth this...

 

No... no no no..."

 

It's great that he told her the truth, but yeah I wish the truth was that he was strong enough to say no. Or, maybe he was strong enough but didn't want to say no... ?

[vsmini]

OP, as your thread starter discussed boundaries but not consequences, have you discerned if the friend communicated consequences for such boundary breakers? If yes, what are they?

 

As an example:

 

'If I discover that you have been unfaithful, I won't remain in a relationship with you. That's a deal-breaker'

 

'I personally find strip clubs distasteful and upsetting and would prefer that you avoid them while in a committed relationship with me. If you choose to go, or if I find out you have gone, I will reconsider how I feel about our commitment. Such an act would be a serious breach of my trust'

 

Now, the man doesn't have to agree and they can surely discuss but, in the example, both the boundaries and consequences have been clearly communicated. If he thinks they are unreasonable and 'list-y' or if she finds his response unacceptable, then the issue is irreconcilable and it would be best if they sought different partners or remain alone, IMO.

 

Each party's perspective is valid. The health of their relationship and its future depends on how they approach resolving it. Resolution has many paths. The responses by women in this thread underscore the breath of those paths. Each situation is unique.

 

What does the friend see as a reasonable resolution here?

 

She called it as a deal-breaker. This was clear and he understood 4 months ago as much as he understood it before he went ahead and did it. She found out Monday night that it happened Saturday night. Right now she's in the process of really making sure she wants to break it off.

[Ruby Slippers]

What I know and what I've said is guy and girl have been dating one year. 4 months ago they discussed things that they thought were boundary and/or deal breakers. Lap dances came up. He told her they make him feel dirty and like a low-life after he'd had them in the past. She stated she thinks it's disrespectful. He agreed.

 

He goes off to cousin's party and comes home and tells her. He feels awful and said he knows he broke a boundary but he was caught in the heat of the moment and pressure from his friends got to him.

Yeah, this is even worse. He let his friends strong-arm him into doing something that makes him feel like a low-life. He has a weak backbone and makes commitments he doesn't keep. So, he's a wimp who is unsure of himself and his own boundaries. Doormat tendencies are some of the most unattractive qualities in men or women.

[BetheButterfly]

Then he should have had the balls and integrity to say to his girlfriend, "No, I won't agree not to get any lap dances." Then it's up to her whether she wants to accept that or not. But to agree to refrain from doing something, and then do it anyway, is inexcusable.

 

 

Exactly. I have made the same stupid mistake in the past -- you make your boundaries clear, then the guy steps over them, and you allow it. And then, guess what? He continues to do it, because you've taught him it's OK and the boundaries aren't really boundaries.

 

One of my deal-breakers is lying. If a man lies to me, it's over. No integrity and trust = no point. I bent on this in the past, and the guy just kept telling me "little" lies. Last time I was involved with a guy who I found out had lied to me, it was over, and I have zero regrets about that.

 

 

Stating your boundaries and not letting them be stepped over is not dictatorial -- it's self-respecting. Men have boundaries, too. How about this one: You don't blow other men. Pretty simple, right? So let's say a woman goes to a bachelorette party, gets really drunk, and blows some guy in the club. Is this OK because of the circumstances? Is her boyfriend being a dictator or an animal trainer if he dumps her for it?

 

 

QFT.

 

100% agree

[carhill]

'Deal-breaker' is a strong statement, especially communicated in advance. IMO, she would be wise to back it up with action. Otherwise, her strongest statement would be impotent going forward. Think of it as a concrete wall. Lots of freedom but ouch when hitting the wall. He needs to feel ouch if the boundary is to have any meaning. Give him some space to reflect on his actions and to decide the value of the boundaries of this person whom he's evidently considering as a marital partner.

[vsmini]

'Deal-breaker' is a strong statement, especially communicated in advance. IMO, she would be wise to back it up with action. Otherwise, her strongest statement would be impotent going forward. Think of it as a concrete wall. Lots of freedom but ouch when hitting the wall. He needs to feel ouch if the boundary is to have any meaning. Give him some space to reflect on his actions and to decide the value of the boundaries of this person whom he's evidently considering as a marital partner.

 

Yea - she's marinating on just the idea of sitting him in the dog house for a week while she figures this out. See if he feels the pain but she expressed that she kind of feels like she's testing him when she's doing that because she's looking to see how he will react. Which she admits feels unhealthy.

 

She's just confused and hurt.

[Woggle]

Why is it okay suddenly because its at a bachelor party and not at other times? I'd think it would either be okay all the time or not at all.

 

I've had friends pressure me and mock me for not cheating on my boyfriend like they do on theirs. I've looked like an idiot in front of them because of it, but that wouldn't make it suddenly acceptable if I did cheat on him. "Oh well, my friends thought I was uncool if I didn't do it." So?

 

In most things, I'll respect this. I won't run up and hug them or act affectionate around friends or call them while they are out or ask them to be home at a certain time or do anything in front of them that makes it look like he's tied down, but at the same time, its disturbing that men encourage one another like this not to have good relationships or respect their girlfriend's/wife's boundaries.

 

 

It seems your friends don't want you to have good relationships either if they laugh at you for not cheating on your boyfriends. I bet they don't want their men going to strip clubs either.

[Enchanted Girl]

Then he should have had the balls and integrity to say to his girlfriend, "No, I won't agree not to get any lap dances." Then it's up to her whether she wants to accept that or not. But to agree to refrain from doing something, and then do it anyway, is inexcusable.

 

 

Exactly. I have made the same stupid mistake in the past -- you make your boundaries clear, then the guy steps over them, and you allow it. And then, guess what? He continues to do it, because you've taught him it's OK and the boundaries aren't really boundaries.

 

One of my deal-breakers is lying. If a man lies to me, it's over. No integrity and trust = no point. I bent on this in the past, and the guy just kept telling me "little" lies. Last time I was involved with a guy who I found out had lied to me, it was over, and I have zero regrets about that.

 

 

Stating your boundaries and not letting them be stepped over is not dictatorial -- it's self-respecting. Men have boundaries, too. How about this one: You don't blow other men. Pretty simple, right? So let's say a woman goes to a bachelorette party, gets really drunk, and blows some guy in the club. Is this OK because of the circumstances? Is her boyfriend being a dictator or an animal trainer if he dumps her for it?

 

 

QFT.

 

I agree with you completely! I have an ex who lied to me through out my whole relationship with him (5 years) and broke almost every single boundary that was given to him. When we broke-up, he told me that he was so hurt by it (he became suicidal) that he was a changed man and would never lie or abuse a woman again.

 

I don't like having enemies, so we keep vaguely in contact. Not anything intimate, just an e-mail or text here and there. And we've been pretty nice and calm with one another. We didn't tear each other's stuff up. Neither of us has sought revenge. We've agreed to keep each other's secrets.

 

Anyway, he texts me one day, swearing and saying he hates me and blah, blah, blah. I'm like,"WTF?! Did I do something? Why are you so pissy?" He refuses to explain it and I tell him to never contact me again.

 

The next day he calls me and is apologizing and tells me,"That swearing and stuff was all an act in front of my girlfriend. She doesn't think its okay to talk to ex's, so we have to stop texting, but don't worry, you can e-mail me at this new account. I have no intentions of being tied down by anything she wants me to do. If I want to keep a secret from her, I can keep anything from her that I want and she'll never find out. I'm a good liar."

 

I was shocked, but not shocked at the same time. The guys that push the boundaries and lie will always push the boundaries and lie. You can't trust them. I wish I could warn her, but I know I'm the last person she wants to hear from. I honestly am not jealous at all. I feel so, so sorry for her. I dealt with that crap for five years and it nearly destroyed me.

[vsmini]

I agree with you completely! I have an ex who lied to me through out my whole relationship with him (5 years) and broke almost every single boundary that was given to him. When we broke-up, he told me that he was so hurt by it (he became suicidal) that he was a changed man and would never lie or abuse a woman again.

 

I don't like having enemies, so we keep vaguely in contact. Not anything intimate, just an e-mail or text here and there. And we've been pretty nice and calm with one another. We didn't tear each other's stuff up. Neither of us has sought revenge. We've agreed to keep each other's secrets.

 

Anyway, he texts me one day, swearing and saying he hates me and blah, blah, blah. I'm like,"WTF?! Did I do something? Why are you so pissy?" He refuses to explain it and I tell him to never contact me again.

 

The next day he calls me and is apologizing and tells me,"That swearing and stuff was all an act in front of my girlfriend. She doesn't think its okay to talk to ex's, so we have to stop texting, but don't worry, you can e-mail me at this new account. I have no intentions of being tied down by anything she wants me to do. If I want to keep a secret from her, I can keep anything from her that I want and she'll never find out. I'm a good liar."

 

I was shocked, but not shocked at the same time. The guys that push the boundaries and lie will always push the boundaries and lie. You can't trust them. I wish I could warn her, but I know I'm the last person she wants to hear from. I honestly am not jealous at all. I feel so, so sorry for her. I dealt with that crap for five years and it nearly destroyed me.

 

Holy crap. This guy sounds like a nightmare

[Woggle]

I don't think this guy should have done it but I find it funny how a man is supposed to submit to any demand a woman makes yet when a man wishes to define any boundaries or make any requests of a woman he is controlling her or he is trying to put her back in the kitchen or anything. I wonder if the women who post in this thread would have the same views if the genders were reversed. I hope they would. I think he should have respected her wishes but I am sick of the double standards.