Did not see that coming

[Emilia]

To give you a little context. He told me a story about an ex, when they went to the beach. She wanted to go to one beach, he steadfastly wanted another. She gave in, even though it wasn't as nice as the other, but didn't understand. She found out when she got there and it was a topless beach. She was pissed when she found out. He thought the story was funny. In hindsight, it was kind of telling. And now that I think about it, when I mentioned I had accidentally taken photos of a topless woman while on vacation, he asked to see them. I thought it was harmless joking. And that's fine if that's how he is. I'm just not cool with that kind of thing.

 

he sounds like a common or garden variety sleaz. yuck. probably the kind that stares at all girls under 20 at his mate's parties and makes them feel uncomfortable. forget him

[EasyHeart]

Isn't this the same guy that you were waxing about all poetical-like a few days ago? And now you're bailing out on him because he was wondering whether some jailbait in a restaurant was wearing underwear?

 

Please. Over-react much?

[Eternal Sunshine]

Yeah, even I think it's an over-reaction. Dumping someone after few months because he was checking out another chick? WTF - don't get it.

 

Also, if he is the type to leer, it's strange that you have never noticed it in 2+ months (or that this is the first instance).

[Ruby Slippers]

I think what some of the guys aren't getting is, very few women do.

They can pretend we are OK with their leering and keep striking out, or listen. For the record, my experience is similar to yours. I have only been with one guy who leered -- and he was also the most emotionally out of touch and insensitive of them all.

 

So, as far as I have seen, at least 75% of men are able to control their impulses and not ogle other women while on a date.

 

Basicly, relationships work best if the man absolutley adores his girlfriend/wife... while she couldn't care less about him

The guy I had the strongest bond with by far told me several times, in a sexy, you-drive-me-crazy kinda way, that I was 'out of his league' and he considered himself lucky. And he treated me that way. Everyone could see it. People would comment to us all the time that we looked so happy together -- because we were. He was thrilled to have a treasure, and I was thrilled to be treasured.

 

As for how much I cared about him... it may sound corny, but sometimes I would tear up just when he was hugging me, because I was so happy with him that it overwhelmed me sometimes.

 

So yeah, I'm a believer.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Ruby Slippers

[Star Gazer]

To give you a little context. He told me a story about an ex, when they went to the beach. She wanted to go to one beach, he steadfastly wanted another. She gave in, even though it wasn't as nice as the other, but didn't understand. She found out when she got there and it was a topless beach. She was pissed when she found out. He thought the story was funny. In hindsight, it was kind of telling. And now that I think about it, when I mentioned I had accidentally taken photos of a topless woman while on vacation, he asked to see them. I thought it was harmless joking. And that's fine if that's how he is. I'm just not cool with that kind of thing.

 

Goodness! That combined with the long staring, that actually caused the conservation to drop, and he sounds almost like a peeping tom! Sleazy to the max!

[Nexus One]

Spent time with the new guy. He introduced me to a few of his friends. Seemed pretty intent on getting their opinion of me. Told me they really liked me.

 

Then, he pulled the guy thing. He noticed a girl that may or may not have been legal, wearing a short dress. He wasn't overtly staring at her, but his head is constantly turning in her direction and he seems like he can't help himself. So I tried to excuse myself. It was humiliating. To add insult to injury, this girl wasn't close to being as attractive. He even said so later. Regardless, I'm not an idiot. A guy's head is constantly turning in a girl's direction, it's because he's highly attracted.

 

He knew he screwed up and tried to get me to talk about it. We did eventually. He said he didn't think he was doing what I said he was doing. To keep from blowing things out of proportion, I told him I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But I'd rather not.

 

Most of the guys I've ever dated were never so bone headed, or were in love and never put me through that nonsense.

 

I feel like an idiot for letting my guard down.

 

Your post reminds me of something.

 

Some years ago I worked at a film company and I got into a petty argument with a female director. She came to the office with some shots and pointed out a shot to me which showed some woman sporting a cleavage and she started ranting (to me) about how the guy next to the woman in the shot was looking at her breasts and couldn't help averting his eyes from her breasts even when the camera was rolling.

 

So I took a look at the shot to see what she got so worked up over. It turned out, but this is my opinion, that the woman with the cleavage had something in her hand (a remote control or something), which she was swinging around somewhat while talking. And I pointed out to her (the director), that the guy wasn't actually staring at her breasts, but he was staring at the thing that the woman was holding in her hand and that the reason it looked as if he was staring at her breasts was only the angle of the shot, as I saw the guy's eyes tracking the exact same motion of the object in the woman's hands.

 

So I said: I don't think he's looking at her breasts, his eyes are tracking the remote control in her hands.

Her: Don't be ridiculous, he's clearly looking at her breasts. Men are such pathetic creatures.

Me: Oh come on, not all guys are like that. Personally I don't think the guy would be dumb enough to keep staring at her breasts while the camera was rolling and while he knows he's in shot and when so many people around are focussed on him and her.

Her: Oh he's so going to get edited out. Men are all the same.

Me: *Getting slightly agitated, as none of the arguments seem to have registered with her.*

 

Anyways, not sure what we said after that, although I do remember getting slightly pissed off at her generalizations. Daphne in your situation, when you accuse someone of something they didn't do and then give an ultimatum and force them to change their behavior. Then:

 

a) The accused person cannot change what they did not do or aren't doing.

 

and

 

b) That comes across as controlling.

 

He didn't admit he was wrong.

 

It's possible that he's telling the truth.

 

However. If that guy did indeed do what he did, then he wasn't considerate to your feelings. The problem with this situation is...what really did happen. Everyone can make mistakes and interpret things in the wrong way. I'm not saying that you misinterpreted the guy's behavior, I'm just saying that you could be wrong, so keep that in mind.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Nexus One

[cerridwen]

Gross.

 

It's fine to notice, not fine to leer.

 

My boyfriend (now husband) asked me early on in dating what behavior might bother me. I told him that it's fine to notice attractive women, but staring, commenting or leering about or at another woman was a huge turn-off to me. He has never stared at another woman in front of me, ever. So yes, this kind of behavior can be controlled, no matter what some might say here. BTW, in response he asked me to give him the same courtesy.

 

Same Alma. With one glaring exception, these are the only types of men I've had relationships with, the type to understand it's about courtesy.

If he can't control himself and/or understand this facet of female-male relationships....bye.

[EasyHeart]

He noticed a girl that may or may not have been legal, wearing a short dress. He wasn't overtly staring at her, but his head is constantly turning in her direction and he seems like he can't help himself.

 

He said he didn't think he was doing what I said he was doing.

 

Where does anyone get that he was "leering"?

[betterdeal]

i don't think it's a matter of respect, i think it's a matter of stupid, t0ri hit the nail on the head.

 

and if he willingly let the friend with the "whoa dude" comment meet you before he knew he was making real progress, it wasn't a random distraction looking at the teenager, he's a moron.

 

i have some friends who are 10 or so years younger than me, in their early 20s. i tolerate them sometimes, they're just not grown up enough to be around certain people and certain gatherings. i don't say anything to them about it, they'll grow up eventually. but would i let one of them even come close to meeting some woman my age who i was dating? never, not even gonna think about it, she and i would be well past dating before they even knew her name. they say stupid sh*t and do stupid sh*t. why would i invite them to do so in front of someone who will obviously not approve? they aren't even allowed to be at my house if i'm meeting a date to instantly jump in the car and leave, they have to be gone before she gets here.

 

stupid is the word, not just disrespectful. who wants stupid? even stupid people don't want stupid.

 

Whilst it may be fun to muse the reasons and motives that drive other people to behave as they do, and whether or not I misread the situation, the effect on me of our interaction is what I am sure of, and my primary concern. When you're on a diet you can look in the fridge, for sure, but slobbering down the cake shop window is uncool. If this guy's hobby is chasing girls, he's not ready for a relationship. Same goes for multi-dating party girls, and similar types.

Edited June 13, 2011 by betterdeal

[TuffCookieX]

Ouch. I woulda been the bitch to march up the short skirt girl and say, "excuse me, that man over there is very interested, come on over for a chit chat."

 

I don't burn bridges in my business world but I definitely don't mind it for jerk-off men.

 

Find a man who only has eyes for you!

[fishtaco]

Ouch. I woulda been the bitch to march up the short skirt girl and say, "excuse me, that man over there is very interested, come on over for a chit chat."

 

I don't burn bridges in my business world but I definitely don't mind it for jerk-off men.

 

Find a man who only has eyes for you!

 

Can you be my wingwoman pleeeeeese? Well if I become available again.

 

For many men it's VERY difficult not to look. It's like it's programmed into our heads. I look, all the time, if I'm on my own.

 

But... yes, there's a difference between looking and leering. Being not a creepy guy, I never leer anyway. So I'm lucky in that department that I don't need to control it.

 

But... if I'm on a date, I should be on my best behavior. I try to make my date the center of my attention and block out everything else. So yes, it takes some mental control, but I think it can be done.

 

In fact, one of the PUA techniques I ran across has to do with this. It's very difficult for men to not look at a woman we're attracted to. Even PUA players. But doing so, if caught, it ruins their game. So a PUA guy would go as far as changing seat so his back is facing the hot girl, hence taking away any accidental indiscretions of checking her out. And I assume this would be when they're formulating their approach.

[Feelsgoodman]

He knows that girls like me don't come about every day. He should have known better.

You obviously have an inflated ego, which makes you take offence to the slightest indiscretions (I'm sure you never do anything than men find annoying yourself..)

[Saxis]

You obviously have an inflated ego, which makes you take offence to the slightest indiscretions (I'm sure you never do anything than men find annoying yourself..)

 

This was my thought... maybe a little deflated and pissed that he may have seen someone more attractive than her? He was probably thinking "That girl is attractive, but she's probably not completely full of herself!".

 

The jury is still out though. Sounds like he was ogling a little too much/often. Did the conversation die before or after you brought it up?

[fishtaco]

This was my thought... maybe a little deflated and pissed that he may have seen someone more attractive than her? He was probably thinking "That girl is attractive, but she's probably not completely full of herself!".

 

The jury is still out though. Sounds like he was ogling a little too much/often. Did the conversation die before or after you brought it up?

 

Well, from daphne's other posts and LS history, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say he was ogling excessively. She doesn't come across as someone with an inflated ego. And I think she was just exasperated and her post came off probably stronger than she had intended.... I've known many women to use hyperbole as a way of articulating their stories. So for me, I would need more evidence before I would say daphne has an inflated ego.

 

Either way, I think it's rude to do that in the beginning of dating someone, when we are ALL supposed to be on best behavior. Once the relationship gets more comfortable, then naturally the self-leash would loosen, and we'd fart in front of our partners. Then it's up for debate exactly how much ogling is acceptable.

 

But... he dropped the ball. Like a girl that's too afraid to call me back even though I made the first attempt to contact. Understandable? Sure. Do I care? Nope. She dropped the ball, I'm moving on to the next one.

[TuffCookieX]

Can you be my wingwoman pleeeeeese? Well if I become available again.

 

 

Being an outgoing wingwoman is one of my biggest attributes/talents =)

[Cee]

And I think she was just exasperated and her post came off probably stronger than she had intended.... I've known many women to use hyperbole as a way of articulating their stories.

 

You are very perceptive about women, fishtaco. I am notorious for using hyperbole myself. I think it has to do with feeling like I won't be listened to unless I make a point abundantly clear.

 

From the way Daphne talked, I got the sense that she's normally laid back about men looking at women. But he crossed the line when he stopped listening to her speak for a noticeable period of time. And left her sitting there with nothing to do, except see him gawk at his upskirt fantasy.

[daphne]

I'm sorry if it doesn't work out.

 

Thanks Oaks. I'm just going to stay busy at work and I'll figure out a decision when it's time.

 

I'm sure you're not being arbitrary about this.

 

I appreciate your reasonability. I am not a terribly arbitrary person. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. However, my instincts have pretty much always been good on this type of thing.

 

Gross.

 

It's fine to notice, not fine to leer.

 

My boyfriend (now husband) asked me early on in dating what behavior might bother me. I told him that it's fine to notice attractive women, but staring, commenting or leering about or at another woman was a huge turn-off to me. He has never stared at another woman in front of me, ever. So yes, this kind of behavior can be controlled, no matter what some might say here. BTW, in response he asked me to give him the same courtesy.

 

I agree. It felt like leering, although I didn't see him directly staring. It was more the sideways glance.

 

Your husband sounds like a total KEEPER. Do they make more?

[daphne]

He tricked his ex-girlfriend into going to a topless beach? That sounds so disrespectful on so many levels. I feel bad for his ex traveling so far and then put in a no-win situation where she is cast as a humorless prude. I can see why you were on red flag alert with him.

 

I don't want to cast him as a villain. I had assumed his behavior was from his 20's, because it sounded that way. Now, I realize that may not have been the case. Not enough data to be sure he's a total douchebag.

 

he sounds like a common or garden variety sleaz. yuck. probably the kind that stares at all girls under 20 at his mate's parties and makes them feel uncomfortable. forget him

 

See above. I am letting it marinate. I've seen guys do far worse. Sex profile guy is one such guy. I'm pretty sure they all ogle 18 year old girls when we're not around. They just don't realize the girls think they're creepy.

 

Isn't this the same guy that you were waxing about all poetical-like a few days ago? And now you're bailing out on him because he was wondering whether some jailbait in a restaurant was wearing underwear?

 

Please. Over-react much?

 

Yes it was. Which makes me feel quite foolish, indeed. I appreciate you pointing it out, and adding further embarrassment. The one guy who seemingly did everything right, may be another dud afterall. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for that.

 

I find it interesting that you are defensively offensive about the topic. It makes me think that this is something you do as a normal practice. If so, to each his own. It's simply not something I appreciate, or want to have to learn to tolerate.

 

On another note, I realize I was wrong to expect less judgemental behavior on your part. I felt you were one of the less antogonistic guys on the board.

 

Yeah, even I think it's an over-reaction. Dumping someone after few months because he was checking out another chick? WTF - don't get it.

 

Also, if he is the type to leer, it's strange that you have never noticed it in 2+ months (or that this is the first instance).

 

Eternal,

 

Where do I begin? I stay out of your threads, because I'm often at a loss as to how to kindly point out that maybe your reactions to men aren't hte healthiest or kindest. I find it rich that you would feel that you can actually tell any other female that she's over reacting. Please refer back to your threads.

 

If you had read my thread, you'd know that it was the first time he's ever done that.

[daphne]

They can pretend we are OK with their leering and keep striking out, or listen. For the record, my experience is similar to yours. I have only been with one guy who leered -- and he was also the most emotionally out of touch and insensitive of them all.

 

So, as far as I have seen, at least 75% of men are able to control their impulses and not ogle other women while on a date.

 

Thanks for telling your story. I'm a believer too.

 

Maybe he'll be disappointed and defensive about it, when he talks this over with his friends. That's ok. But a pragmatic person would have to ask themselves... is that working?

 

Goodness! That combined with the long staring, that actually caused the conservation to drop, and he sounds almost like a peeping tom! Sleazy to the max!

 

I don't want to assume the worst. But yeah, talk about completely uncomfortable. I wanted to ask her to join us so he didn't have to crane his neck.

 

Anyways, not sure what we said after that, although I do remember getting slightly pissed off at her generalizations. Daphne in your situation, when you accuse someone of something they didn't do and then give an ultimatum and force them to change their behavior. Then:

 

a) The accused person cannot change what they did not do or aren't doing.

 

and

 

b) That comes across as controlling.

 

 

 

It's possible that he's telling the truth.

 

However. If that guy did indeed do what he did, then he wasn't considerate to your feelings. The problem with this situation is...what really did happen. Everyone can make mistakes and interpret things in the wrong way. I'm not saying that you misinterpreted the guy's behavior, I'm just saying that you could be wrong, so keep that in mind.

 

Nexus,

 

You're right. It is possible that I was wrong. But my gut doesn't think so. He has told me plenty of stories that might get Eternal riled up about, girls in his past, girls in his present. I took things at face value and it didn't bother me. I don't want to control him. I didn't make an ultimatum. I told him I was embarrassed. I told him I was insulted. But at the end of the day, this maybe something he wants to continue doing. And I don't necessarily think he's a bad guy for it. He just won't be doing it with me.

 

Same Alma. With one glaring exception, these are the only types of men I've had relationships with, the type to understand it's about courtesy.

If he can't control himself and/or understand this facet of female-male relationships....bye.

 

I think that if you know what kind of behavior you need that makes you comfortable, you have to go after those who behave that way. It's just practical. And less drama.

[daphne]

When you're on a diet you can look in the fridge, for sure, but slobbering down the cake shop window is uncool. If this guy's hobby is chasing girls, he's not ready for a relationship. Same goes for multi-dating party girls, and similar types.

 

He is kind of a relationship guy, but never married in his 40's. He has brought up on his own that he feels he's too old for hanging out in bars as he does (his clients are musicians,) and being around all of the young girls there. I think I was probably more on target with my Peter Pan comment than I gave myself credit for.

 

Ouch. I woulda been the bitch to march up the short skirt girl and say, "excuse me, that man over there is very interested, come on over for a chit chat."

 

Find a man who only has eyes for you!

 

Lol. It crossed my mind. But I can't make a public scene. It's not my style. Thanks, I will have to look for the guy with my eyes. Wait, I think you meant it another way.

 

For many men it's VERY difficult not to look. It's like it's programmed into our heads. I look, all the time, if I'm on my own.

 

But... yes, there's a difference between looking and leering. Being not a creepy guy, I never leer anyway. So I'm lucky in that department that I don't need to control it.

 

But... if I'm on a date, I should be on my best behavior. I try to make my date the center of my attention and block out everything else. So yes, it takes some mental control, but I think it can be done.

 

I really appreciate your input. I also appreciate that it's difficult not to check out someone fetching of the opposite gender. I really do. I've been single for quite a while now, and it's hard to turn off the radar. But I do it out of respect. And yeah, on my own I can look as I like. But I'm not someone who leers either. I just notice when someone's attractive.

 

I'm not 100% on whether he was leering. It just felt kinda that way, because his head kept whipping around.

 

This was my thought... maybe a little deflated and pissed that he may have seen someone more attractive than her? He was probably thinking "That girl is attractive, but she's probably not completely full of herself!".

 

The jury is still out though. Sounds like he was ogling a little too much/often. Did the conversation die before or after you brought it up?

 

For the record, the girl wasn't more attractive. She was significantly less attractive. You can consider that inflated, if you like. The guy in question was quick to point this out in his slightly lame defense.

 

Although, she did have a big rack, and I do not.

[daphne]

Well, from daphne's other posts and LS history, I would give her the benefit of the doubt and say he was ogling excessively. She doesn't come across as someone with an inflated ego. And I think she was just exasperated and her post came off probably stronger than she had intended.... I've known many women to use hyperbole as a way of articulating their stories. So for me, I would need more evidence before I would say daphne has an inflated ego.

 

Either way, I think it's rude to do that in the beginning of dating someone, when we are ALL supposed to be on best behavior. Once the relationship gets more comfortable, then naturally the self-leash would loosen, and we'd fart in front of our partners. Then it's up for debate exactly how much ogling is acceptable.

 

But... he dropped the ball. Like a girl that's too afraid to call me back even though I made the first attempt to contact. Understandable? Sure. Do I care? Nope. She dropped the ball, I'm moving on to the next one.

 

Meh, I do have a healthy sense of self esteem. Some people don't like it. But I also have a healthy dose of humility. I can't please everyone. I prefer it to self loathing, that's for sure.

 

I was angry at times when I posted. And occasionally still am. I try to temper it by not over reacting and calling him names or ripping him a new one. He doesn't deserve that. I was not ugly when we talked about it. Being angry and taking it out on someone that may not deserve it are two different things.

 

From the way Daphne talked, I got the sense that she's normally laid back about men looking at women. But he crossed the line when he stopped listening to her speak for a noticeable period of time. And left her sitting there with nothing to do, except see him gawk at his upskirt fantasy.

 

Yep. You got it. I have, in the past, actually commented about a girl someone I was dating happened to notice. She was beautiful and I said so. He didn't gawk, however.

[EasyHeart]

Yes it was. Which makes me feel quite foolish, indeed. I appreciate you pointing it out, and adding further embarrassment. The one guy who seemingly did everything right, may be another dud afterall. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for that.

 

I find it interesting that you are defensively offensive about the topic. It makes me think that this is something you do as a normal practice. If so, to each his own. It's simply not something I appreciate, or want to have to learn to tolerate.

 

On another note, I realize I was wrong to expect less judgemental behavior on your part. I felt you were one of the less antogonistic guys on the board.

I'm not trying to be defensive, offensive, judgmental or antagonistic. I just find it odd that a woman can think a guy is awesome one day and then a few days later think he's a beast for something that is pretty trivial. You certainly have a right to feel however you want to and to apply any bright-line tests that you want, but this just seems really, really odd to me.

 

IMO, something like this warrants maybe 20 minutes of being annoyed, a little pouting and some obligatory groveling, but not much more.

[betterdeal]

He is kind of a relationship guy, but never married in his 40's. He has brought up on his own that he feels he's too old for hanging out in bars as he does (his clients are musicians,) and being around all of the young girls there. I think I was probably more on target with my Peter Pan comment than I gave myself credit for.

 

Ah, so he's closer to my age than I thought (sorry, haven't read about his age until this). He needs a lifestyle change, and new hobbies / pastimes that are less ephemeral than chasing skirt. He has the best chick in town already, but he's so much of his free time looking for you, he's not developed his other interests. If he can start putting his excess energy into that, you guys will be onto a winner.

 

Well, you registered your disdain, so now he knows where you stand. This is good.

 

Me, I've changed career, gotten into gardening, yoga, cycling, self-help and back into books, as well as changed the crowd I mix with. Older, more mature, less party, more thinking in seasons than weekends. Most close friends I have (if not all) have trod a similar path to me (party party! raving, drinking etc) so we can be nostalgic together, and do a festival a year, have a few beers / smokes every so often, but we've moved on and mellowed out a bit.

 

So, erm, he's got a lot of change to do, to be somewhere, something he's more comfortable with. You can grow / change together, if you both wish. Maybe discuss the bigger picture with him sometime?

[betterdeal]

Although, she did have a big rack, and I do not.

 

Do you have photographic evidence for us to consider?

[Eternal Sunshine]

For the record, the girl wasn't more attractive. She was significantly less attractive. You can consider that inflated, if you like. The guy in question was quick to point this out in his slightly lame defense.

 

Although, she did have a big rack, and I do not.

 

This is your opinion. Beauty is subjective. Your guy obviously thought otherwise, despite what he said.

 

Again you are being completely inconsistent. When you started the thread about how great this guy is, you already knew about the topless beach thing. IMO, that was a flag. Yet, it wasn't to you. Strange.