LilyBart Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Someone asked in another thread: why would a married man stay if he didn’t plan to work on his marriage? I would say it's to maintain a status quo (married = married) or going with the path of least resistance (easier to stay than go). Or possibly putting the ball into HER (the BW) court. The way I see it, there are plenty of people who have the mindset of "if I'm not the one who files for D the onus of the "marriage not working" is no longer on me". It doesn't matter how badly he might be treating the BW or not participating on fixing the M. If he doesn't file, he's the one who stuck it out, tried to make it work and didn't throw in the towel. "She divorced me," also elicits sympathy, even if the truth is he drove her to file those papers. I feel bad that I am the other half to deceiving this woman so, but am happy to know he cherish our relationship. I defnitely don't.
tami-chan Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 :laugh:My laugh for the day. Thanks the day was started off a little rough, but you picked my spirit right up. You are welcome ;)sometimes we need to be reminded to be true to the convictions we claim.
tami-chan Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 OP, Nobody is where they don't want to be! so the reasons don't matter if the end result is the same. . I understand this statement. People weigh things and decide what is the easier or more acceptable (at least, to him/her) route to take. It might not make sense to other people but it does to that particular person. So, do people stay in marriages even though they are no longer in love with their spouses? Sure, they do and they do not have to be happy about it either.
bentnotbroken Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 You are welcome ;)sometimes we need to be reminded to be true to the convictions we claim. And sometimes we just need to laugh at some things we find amusing. Again thank you.
Silly_Girl Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Silly_Girl, thank you for that response. What did you think about MM staying? Did you believe that his M was empty? How long did he stay? Did they live together? Did you give him an ultimatum? I'm not familiar with story. I assume you two are together. BDE, his marriage (10 years) was very unusual by most people's standards. It seems it's easier for society to understand cheating and polyamory than abstinence. For various reasons (including religion) they entered a sexless marriage and sadly for them it stayed that way. They were very much companions rather than lovers/partners. She left him and returned back but - as with your post - with no actual 'reconciliation'. Just new living arrangements. I didn't give him an ultimatum, but I aksed him to decide whether we had a future away from his marriage. He said yes, and believed it, but he bottled it and didn't leave the first time around. When he and I split up it was the same as when his wife had moved back. They were living together and he was 'staying'. But that was the extent of it. No marriage counselling, no changes to routines, no watershed, no sharing of truth, no anything. That confused the hell out of me and despite people here saying it's irrelevant what goes on there, it really did intrigue and bug me. I felt as though what we'd had was so wonderful, it ought at least inspire him to sort his life out, surely?! It was a hard time but it was only when he realised he'd lost me that he truly contemplated the prospect of the future. That's when he spoke to loved ones and made the moves and left. I only re-engaged with him on new terms though. I had my fill of how things had been, it didn't suit my nature. Fine for some, not for me. We are together now. And it's really, really great. It's a different atmosphere sometimes, to what it was before, but it runs deeper and is more... I don't know, more rewarding I guess is what I am trying to say. Less highs and lows, and butterflies and passion (although still lots of passion ) and more of the slow-burn, deep-down stuff. The thing is, we live two hours from each other, it's essentially a part-time relationship until he moves. If he had young kids too it wouldn't have gone anywhere, for logistical reasons and because I was okay in myself with having a relationship with that wife's husband, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been okay with having a relationship with 'daddy'. It's not a judgement call, it's a boundary for me.
Silly_Girl Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 I understand this statement. People weigh things and decide what is the easier or more acceptable (at least, to him/her) route to take. It might not make sense to other people but it does to that particular person. So, do people stay in marriages even though they are no longer in love with their spouses? Sure, they do and they do not have to be happy about it either. Frequently it's a question of 'the path of least resistance'. I know people who sit and bitch and moan about their job, until no one can stomach listening. Do they leave? Nope. Are they unhappy? Yep! Why don't they leave? It's a lot of hassle, it might not turn out better and things aren't THAT bad where they are. Sometimes it takes something to trigger a change. Sometimes change can take a long time, dozens of years for some people.
tami-chan Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 And sometimes we just need to laugh at some things we find amusing. Again thank you. I agree, sometimes that's all we can do because there is nothing we can do short of admitting wrongdoing ! Again, you are welcome.
bentnotbroken Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 I agree, sometimes that's all we can do because there is nothing we can do short of admitting wrongdoing ! Again, you are welcome. :laugh::laugh::laugh:hmmm:laugh::laugh:
NoIDidn't Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 So,OP, he doesn't want to get divorced, but do you want to stay his OW indefinitely? That's the real question. Honestly, intellectually knowing what he is doing to his W often isn't enough to see how much damage he is doing to her and his children. He obviously doesn't care enough to change that, and its not that you should care more than he does, but it should be on your mind because he is asking you to take her place and be the next woman he pulls this act on. He might not cheat, but he seems to be the type that's emotionally unavailable to the one he commits to. If you want more than being the OW, looking at how he is currently treating his W should be considered more than with the "I'm getting what I want" mentality currently displayed.
chalkfarm Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Frequently it's a question of 'the path of least resistance'. I know people who sit and bitch and moan about their job, until no one can stomach listening. Do they leave? Nope. Are they unhappy? Yep! Why don't they leave? It's a lot of hassle, it might not turn out better and things aren't THAT bad where they are. Sometimes it takes something to trigger a change. Sometimes change can take a long time, dozens of years for some people. Excellent analogy!
Author Bette_Davis_Eyes Posted June 14, 2011 Author Posted June 14, 2011 So many of you nailed or touched things I’ve been sorting through. I am overwhelmed with thoughts. Again, thanxs everyone First, I want to say I think MM’s love for me is authentic and I think he’s being truthful when he speaks me… OP, you asked if him not working on the M stands for something. I know you're looking for it to mean that he's putting his emotional effort into your relationship and not the one at home...making you first in his heart. OP, Spare yourself the questions. You could spend your entire life waiting on this guy and wondering what his real motives for staying in his M are. Like almost everyone said, it really doesn't matter because he's showing traits that are very questionable to begin with. You nailed my sentiment. I am constantly looking for reassurance that I am right. He does love me. How he wouldn’t possibly jeopardize his W or M and do it so blatantly, disrespectfully, and seamlessly if I didn’t mean the world to him and she didn’t mean much to him. Despite what I know he’s capable of (the non-reconciliation is the tip of iceberg) and believe me I think often about it, I am incapable of seeing him a negative light. Like he is only like that with her because of the situation, not a character flaw on his part. I think “what kind of alternate universe I’m living in” also. For those who say he’s playing me, lying to me, I don’t think you’re right, but I truthfully can’t say I 100% believe you’re wrong. For those who say he’s playing both of us I may be less emphatic in my sureness. Can someone have genuinely love for you and “play” you at the time? We have been discussing it. He thinks we can figure things out and he’s committed to saving and building our relationship. I’m not sure what will happen or what's the right direction. I love him, but hate this.
whichwayisup Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 He may mean what he says when he's with you, from the bottom of his heart, but he also knows he doesn't have to follow through with anything that he's told you because he is married and has no intention of really changing anything. He knows you believe in him and what he tells you .. So in some sense, he is lying/omitting and giving you hope there will be a future. Sure he loves you but he won't do anything about it except just continue on with the affair. Push comes to shove, do you truly believe he will follow through and be all yours?
26pointblue Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 I think he has to be doing something to get his wife to agree to keep him. Imagine if you were cheated on & found out through a D-Day & stayed married- what would your husband have to do to get you to stay married to him? He's probably doing all of that & more. Disclaimer: I only read the first few posts in the thread, so, sorry if this angle has already been covered. I think it's a no-brainer. I too thought my xMM wasn't working on his marriage & that's what he TOLD me but then I began to think, now wait a minute, why would his wife stay with him D-day after D-day if he was telling her exactly what he's telling me (he loves me, wants to divorce her & be with me, etc.)? Then she confirmed it when I talked to her & said he is begging to stay & being the perfect husband & father. Sure not all affairs go like this after D-Day but I would guess it's a very rare one that doesn't . . . it doesn't make any sense otherwise.
Silly_Girl Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 I think he has to be doing something to get his wife to agree to keep him. Imagine if you were cheated on & found out through a D-Day & stayed married- what would your husband have to do to get you to stay married to him? He's probably doing all of that & more. Disclaimer: I only read the first few posts in the thread, so, sorry if this angle has already been covered. I think it's a no-brainer. I too thought my xMM wasn't working on his marriage & that's what he TOLD me but then I began to think, now wait a minute, why would his wife stay with him D-day after D-day if he was telling her exactly what he's telling me (he loves me, wants to divorce her & be with me, etc.)? Then she confirmed it when I talked to her & said he is begging to stay & being the perfect husband & father. Sure not all affairs go like this after D-Day but I would guess it's a very rare one that doesn't . . . it doesn't make any sense otherwise. No, it makes no sense to me, but sometimes just not leaving is enough. But it must surely be the exception, not the rule.
Anna101 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 A woman on another forum actually expressed from her perspective EXACTLY what i mean about how staying in an unhappy marriage is some bull.... You're forgetting something very obvious - it comes down to personality. Some people have the personality that makes the choice to leave obvious and while difficult, still something they'd do. Other people handle change and fear in far less productive ways and so try and maintain the status quo. Affairs wouldn't happen in the first place if everyone was so perfect and had no personality flaws. Most people are well aware of the 'best' thing to do, it's the fact that we all lack the strength to do certain things. Some people for eg, would find it unthinkable to remain in a marriage after infidelity, others find it unthinkable to not try. It's all very easy to say 'well if you are unhappy you should leave' but the reality is we can all be weak or selfish over certain things while still being well aware of what we should do. It is just naive to say that finances/kids as reasons are bull****. They aren't. To many, they are a very valid reason to stay. Men especially lose their kids very often in a divorce. Imagine not being able to see your kids every day? Having to start all over financially is demoralising and crap. There's no 'excuse' for an affair, but there are plenty, plenty of reasons.
MissBee Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) You're forgetting something very obvious - it comes down to personality. Some people have the personality that makes the choice to leave obvious and while difficult, still something they'd do. Other people handle change and fear in far less productive ways and so try and maintain the status quo. Affairs wouldn't happen in the first place if everyone was so perfect and had no personality flaws. Most people are well aware of the 'best' thing to do, it's the fact that we all lack the strength to do certain things. Some people for eg, would find it unthinkable to remain in a marriage after infidelity, others find it unthinkable to not try. It's all very easy to say 'well if you are unhappy you should leave' but the reality is we can all be weak or selfish over certain things while still being well aware of what we should do. It is just naive to say that finances/kids as reasons are bull****. They aren't. To many, they are a very valid reason to stay. Men especially lose their kids very often in a divorce. Imagine not being able to see your kids every day? Having to start all over financially is demoralising and crap. There's no 'excuse' for an affair, but there are plenty, plenty of reasons. I agree that no one is perfect and people make unscrupulous decisions because of that fact. I am not exempt; however, my argument is not that it is so easy to leave a marriage, my argument is that whatever personality you have, when it comes down to it, as another poster said "No one is anywhere they don't want to be".....a decision may be difficult yes but I think at SOME POINT one has to make a choice. There are paradigms in life that apply to you regardless of your personality, and one is that we have choices and we all weigh our choices, whether by rational or irrational means, but nonetheless we all choose the things we do and the situations we get ourselves in based on what we value and think will be beneficial to us. It's like having a cavity and feeling the pain but being scared of dentists, so you put it off. Understandable. But it continues to pain and you continue to put it off. Then it continues to rot away until it falls out or worst you get an infection that travels to your brain and kills you. At that point, you made it go too far for too long. I agree that finances, kids etc are valid reasons for people to stay in a marriage, in their minds and based on their personality, my contention though is more on the end of the OW/OM in the scenario with that person making excuses for them or "waiting" or explaining why "they can't". We all have choices in life. Sometimes to get one thing we have to give up another. When I was in the OW scenario, I told the guy that at SOME POINT he is going to have to make a decision because he can't have 2 gfs forever and I know that if it comes down to it, he's not going to choose me (the reasons you've stated apply). For me, I realized a decision had to be made eventually and if a man wasn't going to choose me...then what was I staying around for? Likewise...he was not the only one in the situation, I too was in it and had a decision to make about whether or not it would be propitious for me to stay in the situation given the realistic possibility that he would not choose me when the final breaking point came. I cited the example of my aunt who had a young child and was in a dead-end marriage and STRUGGLED to leave it. She left and laid in bed for 3 months, depressed, but eventually is better off for it (and her lifestyle with her then husband was quite comfy too). It wasn't easy but it was the common sense choice if she wanted to be happy.... I don't think she had super human strength more than other people. If that can happen to her, I can't really feel bad and pity people saying "They can't leave". Yes you can....if you choose to...if you do not choose to for whatever reason...fine. I'd like OW/OM to note that if such is the case, where this person is not choosing to leave or continuing on indefinitely this person's fears, obligations etc are stronger than their feelings for you. It can't go both ways...if you have 2 choices and you HAVE TO choose one, then you're going to choose the one that you can live with. So if they continuously choose to stay in their scenario then it simply means that while they may care for you, it is NOT more than whatever their other option is, or else you would have been the choice....so what is there for you to "wait for"? You're someone's choice or not. The reasons why something else is there choice is of no relevance. In your scenario Anna, unless I am mistaken, eventually you were your husband's choice, not so? It wasn't easy but clearly it came down to you being important to him and having you was worth making the choice to have you. Every man/woman should have someone who will choose them fully, whom they will also choose and not sit around waiting while they are choosing something else. Edited June 15, 2011 by MissBee
26pointblue Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 No, it makes no sense to me, but sometimes just not leaving is enough. But it must surely be the exception, not the rule. Yeah I guess there are wives who look the other way & just want the MM to stay even if he's cheating. But yeah that would be very rare . . . I think most women want a husband who is not cheating & would be very mad & upset to find out otherwise . . . & usually the cheating husband grovels & begs to stay & the wife wants to forgive him. I think usually that is how it goes . . . from everything I've read it is rare indeed that the MM just leaves at D-Day & rare that a BS doesn't at least go through some period of wanting to believe in the husband & forgive him & save the marriage etc. Now, the MM leaving without a D-Day, or after some time, sure, or the wife getting tired of it or finding out she can't forgive & then kicking MM out, yeah, that happens. But almost every D-Day I've read about involves the MM staying at home unless the wife kicks him out which seems rare, & even then, he grovels to get back in. It's like, if he hasn't left home of his own accord then he really does want both the marriage & the affair, usually, despite what he may tell each woman.
Anna101 Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 Now, the MM leaving without a D-Day, or after some time, sure, or the wife getting tired of it or finding out she can't forgive & then kicking MM out, yeah, that happens. But almost every D-Day I've read about involves the MM staying at home unless the wife kicks him out which seems rare, & even then, he grovels to get back in. It's like, if he hasn't left home of his own accord then he really does want both the marriage & the affair, usually, despite what he may tell each woman. I agree that'd be the norm. In my situation, she initially wanted to work on it until she got all the details and spoke to me (this is within a few day period) and then she did a 180 and has hated him since. I think the first reaction for most people is mine mine mine and then they go either way when more details come out. I also think REGARDLESS of how the MM feels about the OW and the marriage itself, *their* initial knee jerk reaction is also to want to stay. I think most people grasp at keeping everything the same as change arrives, and THEN arrive at their actual decision when it's sunk in. As soon as you think you're losing something you try to keep it, it's only when you realise you can choose for real that you begin to process the reality.
Anna101 Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I agree that no one is perfect and people make unscrupulous decisions because of that fact. I am not exempt; however, my argument is not that it is so easy to leave a marriage, my argument is that whatever personality you have, when it comes down to it, as another poster said "No one is anywhere they don't want to be".....a decision may be difficult yes but I think at SOME POINT one has to make a choice. I think that's where our opinion differs. The statement is only literally true, but the situations are more complex. Even at one of my jobs, I did NOT want to be there and of course I literally did have a choice of leaving, but I didn't feel it was a real choice. So yeah, I suppose I 'wanted' to be there, but the statement isn't emotionally true. Some argue that staying is the choice, I don't think everyone views their situation that way. They wait for something to force the real choice, they need a situation to force them into change no matter how unhappy they are and they don't feel remaining in the original situation is a choice they made, it just 'is'. I hate change myself, and I have avoided situations I'd prefer, just because they were different! Even now, being with my partner and adjusting to life with him and step kids and our son....it all feels quite scary for me and some of me wants to run back home, even though I am happier with him. I think my point is, in reality yep we all make daily choices about where we are, but many don't process this or feel this is a 'choice' unless they are actively forced into choosing between the status quo and change. My partner made a 'choice' to stay with his wife every day that we were in the affair in reality, but there is no way in his mind he would agree with this, because he was still conflicted and didn't feel that every day he was making the same choice. It's all about perspective I guess and what is emotionally true for people.
MissBee Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I agree that no one is perfect and people make unscrupulous decisions because of that fact. I am not exempt; however, my argument is not that it is so easy to leave a marriage, my argument is that whatever personality you have, when it comes down to it, as another poster said "No one is anywhere they don't want to be".....a decision may be difficult yes but I think at SOME POINT one has to make a choice. I think that's where our opinion differs. The statement is only literally true, but the situations are more complex. Even at one of my jobs, I did NOT want to be there and of course I literally did have a choice of leaving, but I didn't feel it was a real choice. So yeah, I suppose I 'wanted' to be there, but the statement isn't emotionally true. Some argue that staying is the choice, I don't think everyone views their situation that way. They wait for something to force the real choice, they need a situation to force them into change no matter how unhappy they are and they don't feel remaining in the original situation is a choice they made, it just 'is'. I hate change myself, and I have avoided situations I'd prefer, just because they were different! Even now, being with my partner and adjusting to life with him and step kids and our son....it all feels quite scary for me and some of me wants to run back home, even though I am happier with him. I think my point is, in reality yep we all make daily choices about where we are, but many don't process this or feel this is a 'choice' unless they are actively forced into choosing between the status quo and change. My partner made a 'choice' to stay with his wife every day that we were in the affair in reality, but there is no way in his mind he would agree with this, because he was still conflicted and didn't feel that every day he was making the same choice. It's all about perspective I guess and what is emotionally true for people. I guess that's where elevating your consciousness comes in and living on a more intentional level where you realize your choices and your personal power amidst the route decisions and autopilot you live in daily. That's really it. I am a spiritual person and have been empowered by becoming aware of how much agency I have versus before where I was more the one things happened to...now I live everyday aware of my choice and it was a total shift that took 2 years and emotional trauma but has worked out better for me as I feel so much more in control of my life and I find that less things seem to "just happen".... I do believe in striving for that other level of awareness and emotional responsibility and agency over your life though...so while I understand how people operate, I'm an advocate of flipping the situation upside down and seeing it from a new vantage point versus the woe is me, I have no choice, point of view. If we just accept "Oh well, I'm human with flaws therefore let me eff up all I want"....then where are we really left? With people never taking responsibility and just blaming it on their humanness...and since other people can elevate above their humanness then it seems apparent that other people are capable of doing it too. It's a vibrational shift, energy shift, mentality shift that I agree most people never make. There are much growing pains in living a more conscious and intentional life versus being blissfully ignorant or feeling like things "just happen". It's hard because first you have to realize just how much you let happen and you have to see some UGLY things about yourself first and the breaking of illusions is very disruptive to your psyche.
Silly_Girl Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 Yeah I guess there are wives who look the other way & just want the MM to stay even if he's cheating. But yeah that would be very rare . . . I think most women want a husband who is not cheating & would be very mad & upset to find out otherwise . . . I'm fairly positive your second point is almost always the case, but it doesn't stop the scenario in your first comment from happening. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
26pointblue Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I'm fairly positive your second point is almost always the case, but it doesn't stop the scenario in your first comment from happening. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Right, that's what I was saying.
26pointblue Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I agree that'd be the norm. In my situation, she initially wanted to work on it until she got all the details and spoke to me (this is within a few day period) and then she did a 180 and has hated him since. I think the first reaction for most people is mine mine mine and then they go either way when more details come out. I also think REGARDLESS of how the MM feels about the OW and the marriage itself, *their* initial knee jerk reaction is also to want to stay. I think most people grasp at keeping everything the same as change arrives, and THEN arrive at their actual decision when it's sunk in. As soon as you think you're losing something you try to keep it, it's only when you realise you can choose for real that you begin to process the reality. I agree completely.
Silly_Girl Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I also think REGARDLESS of how the MM feels about the OW and the marriage itself, *their* initial knee jerk reaction is also to want to stay. I think most people grasp at keeping everything the same as change arrives, and THEN arrive at their actual decision when it's sunk in. As soon as you think you're losing something you try to keep it, it's only when you realise you can choose for real that you begin to process the reality. I agree completely. I agree too. And is my experience and my experience of others, and is what happened both times in his marriage. That's why I was surprised at how many BS's said they told their WS to sling their hook and be with their AP. I winder what the different factors are for those very different reactions.
Got it Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I agree with Anna and Silly_girl. I also think that when a dday hits, there is compassion for your BS regardless of your romantic feelings towards anyone else. There isn't a complete disregard of their feelings. Most people do not enjoy inflicting pain on others. It becomes a struggle when your feelings are at a juxtaposition to someone elses.
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