Breezy Trousers Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Really now? You have done a survey? The stats show that the majority of women attempt reconciliation and the majority of men don't. Please dispute at your leisure. I know a lot about infidelity and am unfamiliar with those stats and the source of those stats. Anyway, it's not at all true in my case, nor in many of the accounts I've read here. I showed my husband the door 10 years ago. He was the one who begged for a reconciliation, and it took well over a week before I would agree to it. If our marriage had been even mildly unhappy before the infidelity, there's no way I would have agreed to a reconciliation.
LilyBart Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 No, it takes TWO to have an affair so the OW/OM IS a very willing partner in helping the WS betray his/her spouse. If an OW/OM says NO to the WS, then there would be no affairs.. It isn't one sided in an affair! Yes, the WS is the one actually doing the cheating and betraying but the OW/OM is the WS's partner in crime, so to speak.. You make it sound like an OW/OM is completely innocent in an affair triangle! The only innocent party is the betrayed spouse. Oh I love this! So the only reason someone remains faithful is by default? Because nobody else will have them? Not because they love who they're with and what they have? It's funny, I feel COMPLETELY innocent of ANY wrongdoing since I'm not the one actively betraying anyone.
bentnotbroken Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Oh I love this! So the only reason someone remains faithful is by default? Because nobody else will have them? Not because they love who they're with and what they have? It's funny, I feel COMPLETELY innocent of ANY wrongdoing since I'm not the one actively betraying anyone. Of course you do. No surprise there. That has been conveyed completely in your posts.
whichwayisup Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Oh I love this! So the only reason someone remains faithful is by default? Because nobody else will have them? Not because they love who they're with and what they have? It's funny, I feel COMPLETELY innocent of ANY wrongdoing since I'm not the one actively betraying anyone. It's still a choice to cheat..Obviously. Yet it takes two! Cheating has everything to do with the person him/herself. A broken person, a selfish person, a person who feels entitled, a person who is narcissistic.. The list goes on.. Part I bolded.. So that way you don't have to own anything, or face ANY consquences.
Spark1111 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Oh I love this! So the only reason someone remains faithful is by default? Because nobody else will have them? Not because they love who they're with and what they have? It's funny, I feel COMPLETELY innocent of ANY wrongdoing since I'm not the one actively betraying anyone. no, you cannot steal a spouse. But you cannot deny that you are the willing participant in an illicit relationship that has the potential to destroy a marriage and possibly a family when they discover the affair and your involvement in it. To think any less is simply delusional. His wife may hate you and his children forever affected in their relationship with him. So it's not as simple as you had nothing to do with it. If you make a future with this man, those arrogant sentiments of not having any blame will not serve you well, if at all, at those holiday dinners with his children and his family, absent the xwife of course. Do not be naive here.
LilyBart Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Is that why your MM took THREE YEARS to D? You seem really threatened by spouses who reconcile. Why is that? As a matter of fact from what I've seen, THREE YEARS seems to be about the average when it comes to MM getting their ducks in a row so they can get divorced. Which sort of blows the theory of "if he loved you so much he would move mountains and leave right away" out of the water. Unless it's an exit affair, these things take time. The MM has to protect his assets from the fallout as well as consider provisions for his kids (if he has any). He also has to decide if what he is experiencing with his OW (love, passion, connection) is worth it. So many like to talk about the "affair fog" but seriously, after three years? The MM pretty much know what they want.
bentnotbroken Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 As a matter of fact from what I've seen, THREE YEARS seems to be about the average when it comes to MM getting their ducks in a row so they can get divorced. Which sort of blows the theory of "if he loved you so much he would move mountains and leave right away" out of the water. Unless it's an exit affair, these things take time. The MM has to protect his assets from the fallout as well as consider provisions for his kids (if he has any). He also has to decide if what he is experiencing with his OW (love, passion, connection) is worth it. So many like to talk about the "affair fog" but seriously, after three years? The MM pretty much know what they want. And to grow vertebrae.
whichwayisup Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 He also has to decide if what he is experiencing with his OW (love, passion, connection) is worth it. So it comes down to him leaving and divorcing his wife BECAUSE of the OW. Not because he wants to divorce because he doesn't love his wife anymore. MOST OW would rather have their MM leave their marriages because of the latter, divorce reguardless if she's waiting in the wings or not.
LilyBart Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 no, you cannot steal a spouse. But you cannot deny that you are the willing participant in an illicit relationship that has the potential to destroy a marriage and possibly a family when they discover the affair and your involvement in it. To think any less is simply delusional. His wife may hate you and his children forever affected in their relationship with him. So it's not as simple as you had nothing to do with it. If you make a future with this man, those arrogant sentiments of not having any blame will not serve you well, if at all, at those holiday dinners with his children and his family, absent the xwife of course. Do not be naive here. Of course I'm a PARTICIPANT in MY relationship. It takes two for a relationship to work, doesn't it? Just the way it takes two to make a marriage work. If the marriage isn't working, that's not my problem.
Spark1111 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 And how are those holiday dinners working out for you? His kids and parents embracing your true love with open are arms? ...just asking...if they also view your love as the love of the century.
LilyBart Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 So it comes down to him leaving and divorcing his wife BECAUSE of the OW. Not because he wants to divorce because he doesn't love his wife anymore. MOST OW would rather have their MM leave their marriages because of the latter, divorce reguardless if she's waiting in the wings or not. *shrug* I think most MM leave BECAUSE of the OW. BECAUSE he found someone who he has a "connection" with that he had never experienced before. BECAUSE he can't imagine not having that love, passion, connection for the rest of his life. BECAUSE he wants to be with her (the OW) more than he wants to be alone or with the xW. People can piddle around in their lives and do what they're doing forever. Like water finding the path of least resistance. It takes something BIG for people to make changes.
turnstone Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Underlined - when I found out about my xHs A I left him immediately. To me that's the right thing to do and shows strength. I'm not having a dig at reconciling partners I'm just saying from my own perspective. When I hear about someone being allowed back in I just look at it as weakness in the BS. As I said that is from my own perspective and also that stance has tempered since 'meeting' some of the people here who are reconciling. Just don't assume your actions as a BS have that huge an impact on every OW. I find this really confusing. On the one hand you think (albeit tempered now) that a BS is weak for taking her cheating husband back, but he's the same guy you would have as an OW? So he's not good enough for his wife, but he's good enough for you? I'm sure that's not what you meant! That would imply dear that every BS should kick their spouse to the curb because he will just do it again. I am not seeing a lot of that happening around here. Well, I did. He couldn't have been more remorseful or pleaded harder for me to take him back. I still divorced him.
Breezy Trousers Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 The bolded is exactly my point. You cannot steal a spouse.[/QUOTE] You sure can't. We can rob ourselves, though. We are constantly teaching ourselves what it is we want to learn. There is no "other." For example, people with NPD have a hard time trusting people. The reason for this is because they exploit others. The reason they exploit others is because they believe everyone is exactly like them -- exploitive. Everything they teach themselves ends up being projected out onto others. Eventually it becomes a vicious cycle repeated on an endless loop. They end up becoming increasingly hardened and more defended, not softer and open, which is why NPD is so hard to treat. But nobody does it to them. They teach themselves that, in a very tragic way.
TinaniT Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) Oh I love this! So the only reason someone remains faithful is by default? Because nobody else will have them? Not because they love who they're with and what they have? It's funny, I feel COMPLETELY innocent of ANY wrongdoing since I'm not the one actively betraying anyone. It's interesting; I feel huge guilt for my part in an affair. I don't think it will go away; my turn lately has been to accept that and learn from it as something that cannot be changed. As a BS before, and if (as incredibly unlikely as I find it) I were to be again, I would not lay fault with the OW because of this thought process. I don't want someone to be faithful because they can't find an option, and so I guess I would consider the OW not really significant. Many affairs are when one is looking for another partner, and any number of people would do. Issue is then within the cheater and the other doesn't owe me the same respect. (Assuming the OW is not a supposed friend/family member/or the like; I would respond differently.) I wonder how I can have both thought processes; but then, in the latter it is my choice how to respond and in the former I am taking choices away from another. I suppose I must have embraced the latter in the former situation for a while; I certainly excused myself when it was convenient back then. I can only hope Iand work so) I do not show such flexibility in my beliefs going forward! Edited to say: I don't think a BS trying to reconcile with a repentant spouse (or one she has every reason to believe is repentant, most would not try otherwise) is weak. How hard must that be? The BS is fighting through so much pain and betrayal to preserve her family and her vows. Especially when kids are involved. I think it is amazingly strong and selfless. There may be the rare case (my own springs to mind) where it is weakness, but even then, pain drives strange behaviors. Edited June 12, 2011 by TinaniT
MissBee Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 We can rob ourselves, though. We are constantly teaching ourselves what it is we want to learn. There is no "other." For example, people with NPD have a hard time trusting people. The reason for this is because they exploit others. The reason they exploit others is because they believe everyone is exactly like them -- exploitive. Everything they teach themselves ends up being projected out onto others. Eventually it becomes a vicious cycle repeated on an endless loop. They end up becoming increasingly hardened and more defended, not softer and open, which is why NPD is so hard to treat. But nobody does it to them. They teach themselves that, in a very tragic way. That's very true....have experienced that myself, not with NPD obviously, but with my own issues of unavailability and commitment phobia and how I projected certain things on to others and it ended up being reflected back to me in an endless loop and self-fulfilling prophecy. However, I realized what was going on and have taken the necessary step to change MY self in order to attract something different. I realized it wasn't me being unfortunate and just happening upon these situations but I was "teaching myself".
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Oh I love this! So the only reason someone remains faithful is by default? Because nobody else will have them? Not because they love who they're with and what they have? I've never understood that. Like closing every pub in the town because an alcoholic lives nearby. It just takes an outlet away, it doesn't change the person. I'd want my man to be faithful whether surrounded by a thousand hot naked women, or not. Faithful to me out of choice, not lack of opportunity.
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 The stats are inaccurate. The latest research shows that only slightly less men than women attempt reconciliation. And they are moving towards equal rapidly. But five years later, the benchmark for a reconciliation to be deemed successful, more women remain married to cheating spouses than men. Why? Men, who often stray for sex, appear to be more remorseful than women, who convince themselves they have strayed for true love. Women are harder to treat in MC and IC because they are LESS likely to show true remorse as they have convinced themselves they are in LOVE which justifies all. Fewer apologize for their affairs. Their spouses, at the point, do divorce them in greater numbers. And who can blame them? Either you own your actions or you do not. I've not seen this before, it's interesting if true. And makes some sense. I'd be worried about all those remorseful men though. I'd bet there's a proportion who don't know how to deal with their feelings or the consequences and they toe the line and say the right stuff and either carry on with the OW or go on to cheat again. Not necessarily loads of them but given what we here of the reconciling MM and the frequency of reconnecting with the OW it wouldn't surprise me.
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 So it comes down to him leaving and divorcing his wife BECAUSE of the OW. Not because he wants to divorce because he doesn't love his wife anymore. MOST OW would rather have their MM leave their marriages because of the latter, divorce reguardless if she's waiting in the wings or not. I'm not one of those. If he was ready to go WTF was he still doing there all those years later when I came along?!
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 I understand what you're saying and everyone's going to agree with the idea. Of course. However, with the ready availability of an OW, a man with conflict issues (as an example of one of the few traits MM who cheat seem to have) won't have a reason to address his issues. His needs are being met by having an affair - regardless of who the OW is. And much like a pub landlord serving a person they know is an alcoholic, an OW that knows a man is married, is perpetuating the problem. All reasonable. But you can't shut every pub and off-licence in the country down. So the focus must be the alcoholic, 100%, in my view. Having been on both sides of the fence (cheated on by long-term SO, and in affair with MM) I simply can't accept that the OW is responsible for the damage to the marriage caused by the affair. Sex is one of those things that causes rational thought to pack its bags. With FB, school reunions, Internet games and chat.... it's a miracle if a relationship ISN'T touched by something close to infidelity. And with so many broken relationships and marriages it's like a meat-market out there, with all ages returning to singledom, with varying levels of baggage and unfinished business, seeing what fun is on offer. It's a bit of a free-for-all from what I can see from my living room (!) so I think it's a pointless and destructive exercise to blame anyone other than the person who is already committed to someone and takes the decision to ignore the fact. I really think the energy has better value spent elsewhere.
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Well the analogy of every pub being shut down doesn't fit well. Its like saying that every woman would have to be locked away to prevent an affair. I think the extrapolation I used of the landlord is more accurate and using that with your premise that the MM is solely responsible for the damage to his marriage that his affair causes, it's be fine if a pub landlord serves alcohol to a person that he knows is an alcoholic. At best it's naive. The OW, in the same fashion, whether or not you believe is helping the MM to damage his marriage, is still helping the MM to not address his issues of why he wants an affair. If she believes she has no responsibility to do so, I can understand that, but if she wants him in the long run, she'll have a man who still has those same issues. Re the bolded... I'm not sure why you'd say that. I think a lot of OW explore exactly that with the MM, particularly if either or both party considers there may be a future for their relationship, whether as an affair, or not. The denial for my guy stopped, gradually, from when we met. I think it depends on the context and the type of relationship the affair is. As for sex causing rational thought to 'pack its bags' - I totally disagree. People choose their marriages over having sex with another person all the time, even when sorely tempted. Yes, you're right that sex is more on offer than ever before, but that doesn't make it good for the wife, the husband or the OW/M. Definitely not good, no. I had read infidelity is on the rise so whilst some people are resisting temptation it seems their number is lessening. I think it's a question of needing to be realistic about what it's like 'out there'. A fOW posted on the board recently she was thrilled her man had been hit on by someone half his age - it's like that and there's no point pretending it isn't. I realise that it really doesn't matter what argument is used, no one is going to change their mind at this stage of the game. I'm surprised that you are these days so passionately defensive about the OW position with seemingly no ability to see the bigger picture any longer, to be honest. Interesting.... I had no interest in blaming the OW nearly ten years ago, not her or the others (bar one), so it's not a new opinion I have. Not sure what you mean by 'no ability to see the bigger picture'. I guess that's my fault for not agreeing with you.
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 They may be exploring it but still giving him the opportunity to have an affair. An opportunity. Not THE opportunity. And it depends. Not all do. Lots of OW walk away and decide an affair is not what they desire. But in the meantime the MM does have to face the truth to a greater or lesser extent. And that's not me saying 'oh the cheating has done some good'. I wish relationships (all of them) weren't so often a source of hurt (to anyone). I think its probably impossible to say whether infidelity is on the rise or not. Are committed relationships on the rise also? Are people more ready to admit to adultery? etc. etc. etc. Maybe it's in our faces more, with the Internet etc. Maybe it's less taboo. Maybe it's happening more. What a shame. I realise that you have never blamed the OW, but I did get the impression that you could see the BS point of view at one time. Woah woah woah! Hold your horses! . This is NOT a BS vs OW view. This is my view (as both the aforementioned) and yours. Plenty (certainly a few) of the regular BS posters have said they personally, in their situation, did not hold the OW accountable, and viewed it as the betrayal of their spouse. I had put 'seemingly' in the hope that you would read that as well as the rest of the sentence. Yes, you seem to me as though you can't (maybe you're unwilling) to see the bigger picture, and you didn't come across that way to me until recently. I do tend to read things quite literally, it is a fault, the job I do doesn't help. To me, I don't know what the 'bigger picture' is, but it hints as being your view and on this, but not all things, I don't subscribe to it. I often agree with posters from all different backgrounds and contrary to popular belief I don't have any sort of 'agenda' and I only post as me, for me. Same as you I'm sure. Although, hang on, put my hands up, I wear the OW hat when I feel angry at the blatant denigration (at times) there are of all OW generally. That makes me cross because we've all read heartbreaking posts from an 'accidental' OW (though that's subjective and up for discussion, I know!) who's pouring her heart out, doesn't know what to do for the best, and winds up here. She's a good girl, in the main, nice person probably, and is lost. She'll likely get some wonderful support in her thread, and be very grateful, and she reads new posts on the thread next door and it'll be ranting (same posters from her thread, some of them) about how ALL OW are selfish, desperate, broken creatures who sit by the phone because they have no life. That stuff pees me off. That I react to. Although I would love an OW to understand my point of view, I realise that's never going to happen with you and others, which is one reason I thought I'd try to avoid these threads. They're a waste of my time as much as anything, but there you go. I've always liked you and not because of any 'agreement', and I hoped we could 'get on' in a discussion. More fool me! I think discussions (real ones) are helpful and I've read many I've not participated in and found them REALLY useful. As long as they don't turn in to slagging matches (ours don't) I think it's a good thing! I'm not pro-cheating, but I'm a realist. I'm not anti- or pro-OW, it comes across as the latter because (I feel) I'm drowned out on the board with so much of the former! And I'm sure as hell not anti-BS. If it comes that way, I apologise.
OWoman Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 The OW, in the same fashion, whether or not you believe is helping the MM to damage his marriage, is still helping the MM to not address his issues of why he wants an affair. If she believes she has no responsibility to do so, I can understand that, but if she wants him in the long run, she'll have a man who still has those same issues. Re the bolded... I'm not sure why you'd say that. I think a lot of OW explore exactly that with the MM, particularly if either or both party considers there may be a future for their relationship, whether as an affair, or not. For many MM their issues are brought out into the open through the affair. They become forced to deal with them. The affair is a sign of a life crisis, and as such you have to deal with it. The life crisis doesn't just go away because you have a relationship with another woman. I agree that the A itself helps to surface the issues, providing the MM (and whichever couple survives post-A - the A couple, or the M couple) with the opportunity to address and resolve the issues sustainably. For M couples who recover their M and for A couples who get together, if those issues are not adequately resolved, the very real possibility exists that either the pattern will repeat or the issues will resurface in some other (dysfunctional) way.
BB07 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Even with the sex addict, it's no use to stop him from sleeping around. It's like with the alcoholic. He needs to reach his bottom. If that analogy is true, then isn't the ow enabling the mm to NOT face the issues? IMO......yes the ow is an enabler.
BB07 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 For many MM their issues are brought out into the open through the affair. They become forced to deal with them. The affair is a sign of a life crisis, and as such you have to deal with it. The life crisis doesn't just go away because you have a relationship with another woman. And how are they dealing with it by going on with a long term affair? The affair itself distracts from any issues, imo.
whichwayisup Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 The life crisis doesn't just go away because you have a relationship with another woman. And it doesn't go away if a MM leaves and divorces his wife and ends up with the OM either. That crisis inside of him is STILL there and until he fixes himself, sorts it out, the cheating pattern will repeat itself.
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