TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 It’s commonly said on LS about how a MM would "vilify" his W in his own mind to make his A more justifiable to himself When Dday happens, he vilifies the OW to the W to make it seem like its not his fault AND that there is no way he could actually care for the OW. Its also common that some BSs Vilify the OW as well, in order to make it more acceptable to forgive the WS and work on rebuilding the M (again, I say some, not all), and I figure this may happen in the beginning with the shock, etc.. But a thought occurred to me today about vilifying the MM. Is it possible that we vilify them to make the hurt of losing them seem less significant? Could it really be as simple as MMs not really being evil people that just set out to hurt everyone, but more that they are just human, they have needs, they didn't know how to express what they wanted to their spouse, they maybe thought that the best way for them to get those needs was to just go out and get them elsewhere instead of opening up a lot of heavy discussions which could very well possibly lead to many arguments and even more disappointments and headaches - so the simplest solution in their eyes was to just go out and get that need met elsewhere? Could it really be that they were just incredibly stupid in how they tried to solve their problem - and not really mean spirited conniving people? I'm sooooooo not writing this in an effort to justify any of it, because there is no justifying this - it is wrong. But it occurred to me today...I went from absolutely loving someone to now being disgusted by him. Sure there were things that I made myself blind to at the time of the "Fog", but was he really that repulsive, or did I make myself hate him because it was easier to get over him that way? Did I feel the need to vilify him to be able to turn away? Granted, he made a LOT of mistakes, and he certainly doesn't have the best character, but I do wonder now, if some of the thoughts in my head about him are exaggerated because I needed to dislike him in order to not feel sadness about not having him. I really don't know… I know that you guys can't answer for me, but any thoughts on vilifying the WS?
OWoman Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 But a thought occurred to me today about vilifying the MM. Is it possible that we vilify them to make the hurt of losing them seem less significant? TC, isn't that common following the break up of a R? Whether it's getting together with a bunch of GFs to get wasted and diss the BF who just dumped you ("you're better off without him; he wasn't worthy of you") to D parties to all other kinds of manifestations?
BB07 Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 Good topic TC. For myself, I don't have to vilify him because when I found out the truth of who he REALLY was that was enough for me, well shortly thereafter it was enough. He is a really bad man, not just some poor mixed up confused man. I can't excuse it, nor look over it, nor sweeten it up. He did a truly terrible thing to me and the BS, (so, so many lies) and I'd even go so far as I don't wish him nice things. I hope he has suffered.
ladydesigner Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 I understand what you mean. I most definitely vilified my XOM because of the pain I was in after my A ended. I think if it helps you to get over the person then it was a necessary tool for you. I feel indifference now and I can see a clearer picture of the A, why it happened and why it needed to end. This is a very interesting thread. I know I have always vilified those who have hurt me the most (ex boyfriend, husband, XOM). For the most part I have let go of that anger and none of these people are the villain now, but I know I did vilify them during my anger stages.
whichwayisup Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 Its also common that some BSs Vilify the OW as well, in order to make it more acceptable to forgive the WS and work on rebuilding the M (again, I say some, not all), and I figure this may happen in the beginning with the shock, etc.. Well, the OW isn't an innocent party in the affair, so a BS has every right to vilify her. I do agree that maybe by doing that (if a BS won't blame her CS for his cheating ways) it's easier to decide to stay married, but eventually the anger does come out and the blame is put on the right person. An OW is far from blameless though.. Just my 2 cents. Also the OW vilify's the BS when the MM choses his wife, like it's all her fault the A is over and he is 'forced' to stay married. A MM who cheats isn't doing it maliciously, he's doing it without thinking, yet he is doing it selfishly. Good points OWoman, this is no different than anybody else in a single one on one relationship when it ends and gf's get together and have a rant session about what a dickwad the ex is!
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 TC, isn't that common following the break up of a R? Whether it's getting together with a bunch of GFs to get wasted and diss the BF who just dumped you ("you're better off without him; he wasn't worthy of you") to D parties to all other kinds of manifestations? I see what you're saying - but this feels different. Why is it that after this "break up" that I still had to think of all the "terrible" things that he's done. Usually when I break up with someone, its done, whatever, NEXT...
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Good topic TC. For myself, I don't have to vilify him because when I found out the truth of who he REALLY was that was enough for me, well shortly thereafter it was enough. He is a really bad man, not just some poor mixed up confused man. I can't excuse it, nor look over it, nor sweeten it up. He did a truly terrible thing to me and the BS, (so, so many lies) and I'd even go so far as I don't wish him nice things. I hope he has suffered. Thanks BB hehe, yeah I guess some of them are as terrible as we think
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 I understand what you mean. I most definitely vilified my XOM because of the pain I was in after my A ended. I think if it helps you to get over the person then it was a necessary tool for you. I feel indifference now and I can see a clearer picture of the A, why it happened and why it needed to end. This is a very interesting thread. I know I have always vilified those who have hurt me the most (ex boyfriend, husband, XOM). For the most part I have let go of that anger and none of these people are the villain now, but I know I did vilify them during my anger stages. Thanks for your thought LD. Yeah, its just weird because I really don't think much of the guy at all, and at one time I thought the world of him, so its kind of hard to see where I'm vilifying and where I'm just being objective. Honestly, with regards to xMM, I don't care because it is done, but yeah just couldn't help but wonder if it was just me
reboot Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 Shoot I vilified everyone involved and even a few that weren't.
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Well, the OW isn't an innocent party in the affair, so a BS has every right to vilify her. I do agree that maybe by doing that (if a BS won't blame her CS for his cheating ways) it's easier to decide to stay married, but eventually the anger does come out and the blame is put on the right person. An OW is far from blameless though.. Just my 2 cents. No, the OW is certainly NOT innocent in all of this, but I suspect that some direct it more towards the OW than the spouse because of the part in bold. Also the OW vilify's the BS when the MM choses his wife, like it's all her fault the A is over and he is 'forced' to stay married. Not ALL do. I'm speaking for myself only, but I've never had a DDay and I never felt the need to vilify xMM's ("wife"/gf). It was him that was staying and no one was forcing him to do anything. A MM who cheats isn't doing it maliciously, he's doing it without thinking, yet he is doing it selfishly. That's kind of how I'm seeing it now....For the most part Thanks WWIU
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Shoot I vilified everyone involved and even a few that weren't. Really? I don't know your story - sorry. I guess it is normal, we all do it. Wow, so even those not really involved were still in the crossfire?
thomasb Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 I don't think BS vilify the affair person more because of the need to stay married. I rather think it is because most people love their spouse. They feel no love for the OP.
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 I don't think BS vilify the affair person more because of the need to stay married. I rather think it is because most people love their spouse. They feel no love for the OP. That's a very good point.
silktricks Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 Could it really be as simple as MMs not really being evil people that just set out to hurt everyone, but more that they are just human, they have needs, they didn't know how to express what they wanted to their spouse, they maybe thought that the best way for them to get those needs was to just go out and get them elsewhere instead of opening up a lot of heavy discussions which could very well possibly lead to many arguments and even more disappointments and headaches - so the simplest solution in their eyes was to just go out and get that need met elsewhere? Could it really be that they were just incredibly stupid in how they tried to solve their problem - and not really mean spirited conniving people? In my opinion, this is the "norm" of the WS. Sure there are some who are just into using people, but I think better of people as a whole than that. People make mistakes every day - many times a day. The whole affair dynamic IMO fits into that learning experience that many people go through. I see what you're saying - but this feels different. Why is it that after this "break up" that I still had to think of all the "terrible" things that he's done. Usually when I break up with someone, its done, whatever, NEXT... because (IMO) in the normal course of a break-up, you are breaking up because you don't care for the guy all that much anymore, or some personal aspect of him has just gotten too much. With an affair, it's not him it's his wife (the fact that she exists.... ). So vilification becomes a part of the break-up. First (it appears from LS readings) vilification of the wife and then vilification of him - because in many/most ways you (not you personally) still love the guy, and the only way to escape from that love and free yourself to move on, you have to see everything as TERRIBLE. As far as vilification by the WS to the BS, that's pretty obvious... "oh honey, it wasn't me, it was her :laugh:" And vilification of the OW by the BS, well that's pretty obvious, too. Yes, you (the BS) are viciously angry with your husband, but there is also this implied trust that society says we have towards each other. The trust that someone won't steal your goods, won't break into your house, won't physically harm you, etc. Sure we all take precautions, because we know that there are a great number of people who WILL do those things, but when it happens, believe me, you still feel violated. It often (not always...) feels to the BS that the OW is equally responsible (with her husband) for the pain she is now in. Usually, the BS doesn't know the OW. She does know her husband. Quite often (not always ) it's easier to "vilify" the unknown person.
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Thanks Silk for yet another thoughtful post. I completely understand and agree with everything you said. This, however, is GOLD!! With an affair, it's not him it's his wife (the fact that she exists.... ). haha Damn her for existing!! **shaking my fist in anger** I totally see what you're saying, but that's really funny when ya think about it
MissBee Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 I recall in an effort to get over my ex I would make a list of all his bad qualities and things that were less than stellar so that I had a realistic picture.I think in relationships or shortly after it ends, it is common to put this person on a pedestal, which is the exact opposite of vilifying. You idealize this person and all of a sudden sometimes the good parts seem way more than they actually were and all of a sudden it is a lot rosier than it really was, aka, denial. For me, I found that when I was leaning more towards that pedestal outlook that I needed to really look at the bad so I could see that it wasn't all peaches and cream, which helped me to move forward and aim for something better. If the person is on a pedestal, it's pretty hard to move on as it's near impossible to believe they weren't your "last chance" and that "no one can hold a candle to him/her". As a rule, I think most humans are selfish and act in their own self interest and it takes a conscious person to realize it. I think it is possible to be conniving, selfish, manipulative, inconsiderate, even temporarily insane and not realize yourself as such until you're in a different place. Example, people who commit crimes of passion. I do not think they have some special gene that others don't have, I think they just expressed the worst of human capability, and anyone is capable. I think it is embarrassing and a slap in the face to realize that your perceptions about someone, further more yourself, are wrong or were wrong at a particular time when you felt "so sure". I think it is easier to believe someone is good and well meaning more than it is to see that, even if it is not their general behavior, at that particular time they simply weren't. I accept that I don't always act from the purest of intentions and other people don't either. That doesn't make them bad people inherently...just human. If at one point in your life you were manipulative, conniving, insecure or w/e the negative trait, own it. It's your shadow side, it's not so pretty, but it exists. The OW scenario I was in, I have often questioned it like: was he a habitual cheater and would he have cheated regardless of if I came along OR was I special and it was a one time thing? Is he currently cheating on who he's with now? Would he give me the time of day again if I pursued him? if we got together would he do it to me? Was he acting in his own self interest most of the time and not out of love for me? Did he manipulate things? And the list goes on...it's over and done and it doesn't matter now, but the truth is, I try to lean towards more of a less vilifying outlook because I think it would be hard for me to accept that the man I was in love with could have done all these things. But I also realize...he's a man, not God...and it is very possible that some of the answers to these questions are things I don't want to hear. I would ask you if you think it's possible that the idea of him being conniving etc. is just too hard to swallow so you would much prefer to believe that somehow YOU'RE the one vilifying him and making him look bad versus it is what it is, because it is?
Author TigerCub Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 I recall in an effort to get over my ex I would make a list of all his bad qualities and things that were less than stellar so that I had a realistic picture.I think in relationships or shortly after it ends, it is common to put this person on a pedestal, which is the exact opposite of vilifying. You idealize this person and all of a sudden sometimes the good parts seem way more than they actually were and all of a sudden it is a lot rosier than it really was, aka, denial. That's the thing about it though... I've done that with other relationships - I hated how when I break up with someone, suddenly I remember only the good things and no the bad. But I never had that problem with xMM. I ended it because it was too much - he lied about a kid of his - he hid a kid - that' huge!! So yeah, although I totally see what you're saying, I never really had that with xMM. Not much anyways, the bad far outweighed the good. I would ask you if you think it's possible that the idea of him being conniving etc. is just too hard to swallow so you would much prefer to believe that somehow YOU'RE the one vilifying him and making him look bad versus it is what it is, because it is? Good question... I don't think I'm trying to paint him in a better light now because facing how "terrible" he is was hard to take. I was just wondering because vilification seems to be involved in different angles of the A triangle and so I was just wondering if I am seeing him clearly and objectively or if I was making him look so terrible in my mind to get over it. But the end result is the same - I'm over him and I've learned my lesson and moved on to greener pastures. Thanks MB
MissBee Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) That's the thing about it though... I've done that with other relationships - I hated how when I break up with someone, suddenly I remember only the good things and no the bad. But I never had that problem with xMM. I ended it because it was too much - he lied about a kid of his - he hid a kid - that' huge!! So yeah, although I totally see what you're saying, I never really had that with xMM. Not much anyways, the bad far outweighed the good. Good question... I don't think I'm trying to paint him in a better light now because facing how "terrible" he is was hard to take. I was just wondering because vilification seems to be involved in different angles of the A triangle and so I was just wondering if I am seeing him clearly and objectively or if I was making him look so terrible in my mind to get over it. But the end result is the same - I'm over him and I've learned my lesson and moved on to greener pastures. Thanks MB That's interesting.... So although you're over him, you don't think you can see things objectively, even now? I feel like for me, I find it hard to trust my perception when I still am emotionally involved but when time goes by and I'm over it and have no real reason to lie to myself, the perception I hold post-drama is way closer to the truth and is a more balanced outlook where the person is not all bad, not all good, I can take it for what it's worth as well as see my own part in everything. But it's interesting how your perception shifts the more you grow, as maybe 10 years from now, learning more about myself and life I may have an even more refined perspective on things. Edited June 7, 2011 by MissBee
East7 Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 TC good question but I think vilification is not a good thing. In my case I never vilificated xMW, she was certainly not a perfect person but if I think if we were two single people involved in a normal relationship it would had been a good one, at least that's how I imagine it She vilificated me telling me that 'I didnt respect her M and her H'... Coming from HER it was suprising. I think vilification is conditionning your mind to get over someone that dissapointed us, but actually it is not an objective point of view. We always need to vilify people that hurt us. In an affair situation, everyone ends up hurt, especially the BS and the AP.
Spark1111 Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 Well what if vilification is simply projecting anger at ourselves onto another in an effort to protect our psyche? Happens all the time, especially in emotionally intense situations like an affair! Am I angry or disappointed at myself, so I blame my spouse and/or the marriage? Am I angry at the deceit I've been forced to live with, so I project it onto my AP ONLY after it is over? Am I so angry that my spouse betrayed me and I did not know, but I still love him/her, so I project that anger onto the OW/OM? Sure, I think what we call villification is really projecting our own anger onto others. It protects us until we are ready to deal with our own actions and anger at ourselves. Happens every day....like I've always said, the opposite of love is not hate or anger....it's indifference and acceptance.
fooled once Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 It’s commonly said on LS about how a MM would "vilify" his W in his own mind to make his A more justifiable to himself When Dday happens, he vilifies the OW to the W to make it seem like its not his fault AND that there is no way he could actually care for the OW. Its also common that some BSs Vilify the OW as well, in order to make it more acceptable to forgive the WS and work on rebuilding the M (again, I say some, not all), and I figure this may happen in the beginning with the shock, etc.. But a thought occurred to me today about vilifying the MM. Is it possible that we vilify them to make the hurt of losing them seem less significant? Could it really be as simple as MMs not really being evil people that just set out to hurt everyone, but more that they are just human, they have needs, they didn't know how to express what they wanted to their spouse, they maybe thought that the best way for them to get those needs was to just go out and get them elsewhere instead of opening up a lot of heavy discussions which could very well possibly lead to many arguments and even more disappointments and headaches - so the simplest solution in their eyes was to just go out and get that need met elsewhere? Could it really be that they were just incredibly stupid in how they tried to solve their problem - and not really mean spirited conniving people? I'm sooooooo not writing this in an effort to justify any of it, because there is no justifying this - it is wrong. But it occurred to me today...I went from absolutely loving someone to now being disgusted by him. Sure there were things that I made myself blind to at the time of the "Fog", but was he really that repulsive, or did I make myself hate him because it was easier to get over him that way? Did I feel the need to vilify him to be able to turn away? Granted, he made a LOT of mistakes, and he certainly doesn't have the best character, but I do wonder now, if some of the thoughts in my head about him are exaggerated because I needed to dislike him in order to not feel sadness about not having him. I really don't know… I know that you guys can't answer for me, but any thoughts on vilifying the WS? TC, I disagree. His behavior and actions are not justifiable. He and the OW make choices to engage. He chooses to not end his marriage prior to cheating. Heck, I would bet he has minimal home issues. He is choosing to disrespect his wife, his family and his mistress. Choices he makes with only his selfishness in mind.
Breezy Trousers Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) Sure people villify MM. Part of my attraction for MM was my tendency to feel bad for him. I sensed he was hurting. I got codependent and started believing I could be his little social worker. Thank God he showed me his fangs after I turned away. I got doused with reality. Took me straight out of love fog. His bizarre, controlling behavior scared the @#!*% out of me, so I ended up learning a lot about personality disorders and domestic violence. Am I turning MM into a monster? Not according to a male therapist I saw trying to cope with MM's rage after I turned away. The therapist asked me to go to authorities because he believed MM was genuinely disturbed. The therapist has 30 years of clinical experience. That's good enough for me. I still believe MM is disturbed, but I'm no longer angry at him, no longer pity him, no longer feel the need to save the world from him, and no longer feel it's my job to fix him. And I certainly don't long for him. I stay away and mind my own business. I see my responsibility in the dynamic and I'm addressing it. I'm like Switzerland - a neutral territory again. So far, it's working for me. I've learned a lot of fantastic lessons from my experience with him. Many us need anger as a crutch to walk away from an unhealthy situation. It's part of the grieving process. It's part of disillusionment -- i.e., having an illusion removed from you. No harm in that as long as you don't stay stuck in it. Edited June 8, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
Author TigerCub Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 That's interesting.... So although you're over him, you don't think you can see things objectively, even now? I feel like for me, I find it hard to trust my perception when I still am emotionally involved but when time goes by and I'm over it and have no real reason to lie to myself, the perception I hold post-drama is way closer to the truth and is a more balanced outlook where the person is not all bad, not all good, I can take it for what it's worth as well as see my own part in everything. But it's interesting how your perception shifts the more you grow, as maybe 10 years from now, learning more about myself and life I may have an even more refined perspective on things. I think I question how I view him because its not in a good light - but then I think to myself, well if he's such a lowlife, how the hell did I fall in love with THAT. I think that's why I question the idea of vilifying the xMM. I think the part in bold is true and I understand where you're coming from, but also consider the fact that when you tell yourself something over and over and you convince yourself of it - its hard to see it any other way (even after 10 years of so) if that's what you convinced yourself of. That's why, what caused the end of the A with xMM was that I saw that he's just a huge liar and that everything was fake, he was so damaged (beyond anything I could have imagined) and those things are true, but I kept reminding myself of how bad he is, I kept imagining what he must think of me, how he truly felt about me, what he was up to after I left, I think to some extent I did paint him in a worse light - but honestly, my main starting point was the facts I had. I dunno...I'm rambling too much now
Author TigerCub Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 She vilificated me telling me that 'I didnt respect her M and her H'... Coming from HER it was suprising. haha, that's so laughable!! I think vilification is conditionning your mind to get over someone that dissapointed us, but actually it is not an objective point of view. We always need to vilify people that hurt us. In an affair situation, everyone ends up hurt, especially the BS and the AP. Very true. I just want to see things fairly and objectively, even though it really doesn't matter now - its going to be 6 months in a few days since I sent him that last letter and started NC with him!!
Gissie Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Yes that is excatly what is going on. If you read my earlier post ( My learnings after A), we are all human , MM too and no it doesnt justify what has happened but sometimes they just dont think. It all depends on the case but at least in my case, I really dont think he planned it, lied or anything like that. He is just immature in a way , making stupid choices and mistakes. Just like OW. He learns as he lives, like us all. I also went from loving to hating and admiration to being disgusted before I found the middle ground.
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