For the WS - post affair self confidence issues?

[ShatteredReality]

I'm not sure this is the correct forum for this topic, but I thought perhaps I'd give it a shot.

 

So...this question is mostly about the aftermath of being the WS. Have any WS noticed after the A - any issues with self worth or self confidence? Obviously this mostly pertains to folks who feel bad about what they've done - but that's my main question - do you find yourself filled with self doubt and perhaps even a touch of a self destructive streak that perhaps wasn't there before?

[OldOnTheInside]

My xW certainly did. Some of my friends and co-workers who have placed themselves in an affair did (mostly because the torrent of complex emotions was so self-destructive as they would put it).

 

Obviously this mostly pertains to folks who feel bad about what they've done

^This is really the most important bit. Different strokes for different folks.

 

In the case of my ex, it took around 4 years for her to really gain back her self-confidence. The question that frequently came up in her mind (and presumably many WS's minds) is "How could I have placed myself in this situation in the first place"? So she was filled with quite a bit of self-doubt.

[ShatteredReality]

My xW certainly did. Some of my friends and co-workers who have placed themselves in an affair did (mostly because the torrent of complex emotions was so self-destructive as they would put it).

 

^This is really the most important bit. Different strokes for different folks.

 

In the case of my ex, it took around 4 years for her to really gain back her self-confidence. The question that frequently came up in her mind (and presumably many WS's minds) is "How could I have placed myself in this situation in the first place"? So she was filled with quite a bit of self-doubt.

 

Did she ever find herself worried about how to handle future situations that could turn out similarly? Did she struggle with herself on how to handle if another man were to hit on her at all?

[OldOnTheInside]

Did she ever find herself worried about how to handle future situations that could turn out similarly? Did she struggle with herself on how to handle if another man were to hit on her at all?

 

Having read some of your older posts I think I understand why you might feel this way. Are you seeing a counsellor or therapist and have you spoken to your husband about all of this?

 

Anyway, during one of our conversations years ago, my xW basically said "I have no intention of ever repeating my past mistakes". But I would say "yes" to your questions, the dynamic of her relationships with male friends did change after the affair (from what she told me, and from my own observations). I don't doubt that she was a little bit more wary when dealing with men.

 

One of my married female friends told me how she dealt with unwanted attention when she went out drinking. Her method (when simply saying "I'm married" wasn't enough) was to quickly take control of the conversation and talk constantly about both your kids and your husband's positive attributes. Most men tended to get the message pretty quickly.

 

Would I be correct in assuming that you are afraid that you don't know how to set up strong boundaries when dealing with men, after your affair? If so, this is one area where you have to learn to stand up for yourself, on your own. Easier said than done.

[ShatteredReality]

Having read some of your older posts I think I understand why you might feel this way. Are you seeing a counsellor or therapist and have you spoken to your husband about all of this?

 

Anyway, during one of our conversations years ago, my xW basically said "I have no intention of ever repeating my past mistakes". But I would say "yes" to your questions, the dynamic of her relationships with male friends did change after the affair (from what she told me, and from my own observations). I don't doubt that she was a little bit more wary when dealing with men.

 

One of my married female friends told me how she dealt with unwanted attention when she went out drinking. Her method (when simply saying "I'm married" wasn't enough) was to quickly take control of the conversation and talk constantly about both your kids and your husband's positive attributes. Most men tended to get the message pretty quickly.

 

Would I be correct in assuming that you are afraid that you don't know how to set up strong boundaries when dealing with men, after your affair? If so, this is one area where you have to learn to stand up for yourself, on your own. Easier said than done.

 

Currently I am not in therapy. I was after the A for awhile but she told me I didn't need to go anymore...She said I already had all the tools and had the common sense that I just needed to apply it. I also have spoken to my H about all of this - this post and the last thread that I started were both his idea.

 

I have no intention of repeating my previous behavior - and I have tried many different methods to put up barriers to prevent the situation from being a posibility again. I suppose I just don't understand what it is about ME that makes any guy think that "I'm happily married" means anything less than what I've said. I will try the method of talking about my family more...I already talk about them like crazy, but I'm thinking I need to find a way to make my husband more the concentration of the conversation. I don't go out drinking, when I do go for girls nights it's in groups and we hit a restaurant and then maybe a movie...I take my oldest with me on many outtings (mostly for the quality time but it makes for a comfortable deterant as well).

 

I also need to figure out how my body language gives off these signals telling men that it's ok to keep hitting on me. I've been told a few times it's my smile or something in my eyes - well whatever the heck it is - I am completely unaware I am doing it...I try to analyze after the fact, but I don't spot it quite the same way. I see myself as shifting uncomfortably and avoiding eye contact, any laugher is nervous and strained, smiles are also uncomfortable and forced...

[Spark1111]

Establishing boundaries is very important.

 

Ever notice how happily married people introduce their spouse's name into almost every conversation, usually at the beginning, as in "Joe and I recently did, saw, spoke of blah, blah, blah"....

 

They are establishing a boundary with a person of the opposite sex.

 

As for strangers, why are you engaged in eye contact or smiling at strangers in public settings? Or projecting body language that says, "notice me!"

 

Do you still need attention?

 

When out with your girlfriends, focus on them and them alone.

[ShatteredReality]

Shattered, is it impossible to ask the man to leave you alone? "I'm sorry, I'm here to spend time with my friends/daughter and I'd appreciate being left alone to do that". If you find it impossible, why is that? Does your lowered self-esteem mean you feel that you have no right to tell them to leave you alone?

 

I say no, I say I am not interested - I am ignored. I have trouble being what I perceive to be rude or mean about it - that is where the problem is I think....that I am still too nice about it.

 

Establishing boundaries is very important.

 

Ever notice how happily married people introduce their spouse's name into almost every conversation, usually at the beginning, as in "Joe and I recently did, saw, spoke of blah, blah, blah"....

 

They are establishing a boundary with a person of the opposite sex.

 

As for strangers, why are you engaged in eye contact or smiling at strangers in public settings? Or projecting body language that says, "notice me!"

 

Do you still need attention?

 

When out with your girlfriends, focus on them and them alone.

 

I talk about my family constantly. I talk about my husband and how smart he is, how great he is, how spoiled he makes me feel, etc. This has not proven to be enough. I avoid eye contact and I have an automatic reaction of smiling when I am nervous...but it's not the same smile as my "genuine" smile. Believe me when I say I have attempted to analyze my behavior time and again to see where I am going wrong, giving off the wrong impression...whatever I am doing I am not aware I am doing it and don't know how to identify it. I asked OM what attracted him to me back in the beginning forever ago and he said it was watching me talk to other people - I was happy and smiling and he felt pulled to me. I asked why he continued to hit on me after I pushed him away and ran out of the room when he entered and told him NO NO NO NO the first dozen and a half times and he said my eyes were saying yes the whole time and he couldn't help himself. So - either I attrack complete psychos who cannot hear correctly or there is something wrong with me. I just want to know what so I can get rid of it.

[OldOnTheInside]

I say no, I say I am not interested - I am ignored. I have trouble being what I perceive to be rude or mean about it - that is where the problem is I think....that I am still too nice about it.

"With all due respect good sir, and with the utmost humility on my part, would you kindly **** off."

Well, no, you don't need to go there. My point is, have you ever just said "I don't want to talk to you, please leave me alone now," to a man? I'm sure their egos will be able to handle it.

 

I asked OM what attracted him to me back in the beginning forever ago and he said it was watching me talk to other people - I was happy and smiling and he felt pulled to me. I asked why he continued to hit on me after I pushed him away and ran out of the room when he entered and told him NO NO NO NO the first dozen and a half times and he said my eyes were saying yes the whole time and he couldn't help himself.

As a man that has intricate knowledge of the male brain (I'm joking if it wasn't very obvious to you) I think I understand.

 

OM pursued you --> You said you weren't interested --> He could tell that you weren't the type of woman to stand her ground (no offense) --> So he continued flirting until you caved in.

 

^ That correct? If so, then he could sense your "weakness" (again, no offense). He knew what he wanted and he knew how to get it. And you caved in.

 

Would I be correct with these rather large assumption of your character? You're usually relatively quiet, timid and reserved but you also know how to hold a conversation and socialise when you feel it is appropriate. Other people consider you to be polite and charismatic. You usually let other people lead ahead of you. You're non confrontational. You consider yourself to be a highly empathetic person. You were filled with a reasonably unhealthy level of insecurity both before and after your affair. You were/are shy in your childhood and possibly adulthood.

 

Note that the above paragraph could, in fact, be complete BS.

Edited June 7, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[Memphis Raines]

"With all due respect good sir, and with the utmost humility on my part, would you kindly **** off."

 

LOL

 

ya, like most WS's would say this to their affair partner. Most will want to treat their x-APs with kid gloves either because they don't want the x-AP to think badly of them, or they still have feelings for them and don't want contact to completely stop ever, even if they are under the illusion that they can be friends.

 

an WS that is serious about working to right the wrongs they have done to their spouse would tell an x-AP just what you illustrated above.

 

but there is a reason when they don't put it like you did above, as I have illustrated.

 

Well, no, you don't need to go there.

 

 

if i were to have stayed with a cheating wife, I'd expect EXACTLY that kind of response to their affair partner. otherwise they can choose between the marriage or coddling their AP so they don't ever completely go away.

[ShatteredReality]

"With all due respect good sir, and with the utmost humility on my part, would you kindly **** off."

 

Well, no, you don't need to go there. My point is, have you ever just said "I don't want to talk to you, please leave me alone now," to a man? I'm sure their egos will be able to handle it.

 

As a man that has intricate knowledge of the male brain (I'm joking if it wasn't very obvious to you) I think I understand.

 

OM pursued you --> You said you weren't interested --> He could tell that you weren't the type of woman to stand her ground (no offense) --> So he continued flirting until you caved in.

 

^ That correct? If so, then he could sense your "weakness" (again, no offense). He knew what he wanted and he knew how to get it. And you caved in.

 

Would I be correct with these rather large assumption of your character? You're usually relatively quiet, timid and reserved but you also know how to hold a conversation and socialise when you feel it is appropriate. Other people consider you to be polite and charismatic. You usually let other people lead ahead of you. You're non confrontational. You consider yourself to be a highly empathetic person. You were filled with a reasonably unhealthy level of insecurity both before and after your affair. You were/are shy in your childhood and possibly adulthood.

 

Note that the above paragraph could, in fact, be complete BS.

 

You are kinda sorta on the right track....I am not shy and never have been. I have been told I am charismatic, though, and have absolutely no troubles fitting in or finding friends. I am polite nearly to a fault, and I avoid confrontation if I can - but don't fear it typically. With men I seem to, though...and that's where my problem has been. I am highly empathetic and this too gets me dragged into some not so wonderful situations. I had to stop being friends with one of my Hs friends years ago because during his divorce I was a willing sounding board for him and he began to develop an attachment that was less than healthy. He told me he had to pick between me and his good friend (my H) and I told him there was no choice to make - that he was first and foremost my H's friend and I told him to feel free to contact me through my H from then on.

 

I am guessing you're right where it comes to OM...My H says I got played...either way, it was a bad situation all around and I've never gotten back to standing all the way up again without feeling like that whole thing knocked me down a few flights of steps. With OM I did tell him to leave me alone. I left the room when he entered if I was alone. I looked down when he tried to make eye contact...but in groups I was myself and that was the girl he was chasing - he just needed to find a way to get that same girl to be in the same room as him alone (in his mind). Oh - and I was new on the job so I worried about reputations and such...silly things now but at the time ohhh so important....blech. And don't worry about offending me - I don't like to be lashed out at, per se, but I can handle good open honesty.

 

LOL

 

ya, like most WS's would say this to their affair partner. Most will want to treat their x-APs with kid gloves either because they don't want the x-AP to think badly of them, or they still have feelings for them and don't want contact to completely stop ever, even if they are under the illusion that they can be friends.

 

an WS that is serious about working to right the wrongs they have done to their spouse would tell an x-AP just what you illustrated above.

 

but there is a reason when they don't put it like you did above, as I have illustrated.

 

 

if i were to have stayed with a cheating wife, I'd expect EXACTLY that kind of response to their affair partner. otherwise they can choose between the marriage or coddling their AP so they don't ever completely go away.

 

OM is not and has not been a part of my life in over two years now. I changed jobs two years ago and we've had complete NC ever since. He will not be re-entering my personal space anytime in this lifetime if I have even an ounce of control over the situation. My response in seeing him would not even be to speak to him - it would be to turn and walk away. (I ran into him at a Drs office about a year ago and that was how I handled that situation)

 

My problem is with men now who somehow have this ability to completely misinterpret all the signals I think are so clear...and therefore I have to do something to change the signals. Unfortunately in order to do this I have to learn what the **** is wrong with ME first that these signals are so easily misinterpreted.

[OldOnTheInside]

You are kinda sorta on the right track....I am not shy and never have been.

Feh, close enough. Although, do you think that it is possible that you are shy in some ways...but only around men? Because that is kinda what I'm getting at from your posts.

 

My problem is with men now who somehow have this ability to completely misinterpret all the signals I think are so clear...and therefore I have to do something to change the signals. Unfortunately in order to do this I have to learn what the **** is wrong with ME first that these signals are so easily misinterpreted.

Well, you said that you smile when you are nervous. Considering what smiles represent, I'm sure you realise that this is an invitation for trouble. I know the "demure" look (minimal eye contact when dealing with men, thus suggesting low confidence) is also a strong signal for some of the more dominant men to make their move (in the opinion of some of my male friends anyway). You said that you don't like to create conflict when dealing with men. Your friends have said that you are charismatic, but you don't think that you are deliberately being charismatic...so it just comes naturally for you, meaning that you can't control your charisma.

 

Everything that I have just typed in the above paragraph has basically come from what you have given us. IMO you have spent so much time analysing what is "wrong" with you (that's not really the best choice of words...there is nothing wrong with you per se) and the signals that you are releasing, when you already know. Look at the above paragraph again...you already know what you need to change.

 

I don't think your question should be: What do I need to change? Rather how do I change myself?

Edited June 8, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[ShatteredReality]

Feh, close enough. Although, do you think that it is possible that you are shy in some ways...but only around men? Because that is kinda what I'm getting at from your posts.

 

As soon as I feel the attraction to me I become shy. I am completely fine until I feel that little tug - the way he looks at me or smiles at me or lingers in a hug....any of it will make my back go rigid and my personality nearly shut down entirely. It's difficult to explain...I become jittery and nervous and want nothing more to do with the scenario. I can only imagine it's really weird for a girl like me who is so open and out there to just become almost twitchy - trying to act the same as I was before but becoming a complete space cadet. It's pathetic.

 

Well, you said that you smile when you are nervous. Considering what smiles represent, I'm sure you realise that this is an invitation for trouble. I know the "demure" look (minimal eye contact when dealing with men, thus suggesting low confidence) is also a strong signal for some of the more dominant men to make their move (in the opinion of some of my male friends anyway). You said that you don't like to create conflict when dealing with men. Your friends have said that you are charismatic, but you don't think that you are deliberately being charismatic...so it just comes naturally for you, meaning that you can't control your charisma.

 

Everything that I have just typed in the above paragraph has basically come from what you have given us. IMO you have spent so much time analysing what is "wrong" with you (that's not really the best choice of words...there is nothing wrong with you per se) and the signals that you are releasing, when you already know. Look at the above paragraph again...you already know what you need to change.

 

I don't think your question should be: What do I need to change? Rather how do I change myself?

 

Ok so I need to change how I react to men in general. SO much easier said than done. We're talking about 16 yrs of behavior...probably more than that even. Involuntary behavior at that. I have only begun to scratch the surface of recognizing the things that I do...I never realized how I reacted before...and I still have a hard time seeing it as anything other than negative. I do get what you're saying though...if I start to smile I have to stop myself...looking down may not get me the right response so perhaps just avoiding eye contact without looking down, perhaps allow it for a split second then looking away and making eye contact with someone else if possible...preferably a woman, lol....that sounds difficult but I will try...lol...I am sure putting a camera on me while I am figuring all of this out would render some entertaining reactions.

[Spark1111]

To me, it sounds as if you are too nice, too accomodating to....strangers.

 

As if you will hurt someone's feelings, even some creep who is pursuing you in a bar.

 

The only question for yourself to figure out is, why?

 

Why do you care about gently letting down someone who is rude or coming on to you, or pursuing you despite your "protestations". What are you afraid of? That they won't "like" you or will judge you?

 

They are strangers behaving badly, fercryingoutloud!

 

This smacks of insecurity to me; the fear of being unliked even by men behaving boorishly.

 

And wolves can smell sheep from across a crowded bar room.

[ShatteredReality]

To me, it sounds as if you are too nice, too accomodating to....strangers.

 

As if you will hurt someone's feelings, even some creep who is pursuing you in a bar.

 

The only question for yourself to figure out is, why?

 

Why do you care about gently letting down someone who is rude or coming on to you, or pursuing you despite your "protestations". What are you afraid of? That they won't "like" you or will judge you?

 

They are strangers behaving badly, fercryingoutloud!

 

This smacks of insecurity to me; the fear of being unliked even by men behaving boorishly.

 

And wolves can smell sheep from across a crowded bar room.

 

I don't go to bars...I can count on one hand in the last ten years how many times I have gone to a bar...only twice w/out my H. I don't go to clubs. I don't go to any of the regular pick up places. I am pursued in grocery stores and exercise classes...work...and occasionally at stoplights...of course I prefer the stoplight as I can just drive off - but that's the rare occurance.

 

So definitely I am willing to admit I have self confidence and issues with insecurity....I guess one thing I'd like to know is how to fix that? What are some methods to build that up?