Bette_Davis_Eyes Posted June 5, 2011 Posted June 5, 2011 If the OW is fooling herself in believing MM tells her the truth, doesn’t love his W, or lies about his M, how is it that BW is in a better position? Bw gets lied to during the A and lied to on Dday. If its naïve to think MM doesn’t love his W, isn’t it naïve to think MM couldn’t love the OW. Isn’t the BW’s position that she can only go by what MM tells her about the OW and the A the same as it’s said OW couldn’t possible know what MM’s M or W is really like?
MissBee Posted June 5, 2011 Posted June 5, 2011 I'm not sure about your full question, but to answer the first question: The BW and OW are in the same boat in terms of dealing with an unscrupulous man. That is where the commonality lies. All else is up for debate and nuanced perspectives but that is the common thread that doesn't change regardless of the "unique" scenario.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 5, 2011 Posted June 5, 2011 Who has said that the BW is in a better position?
greengoddess Posted June 5, 2011 Posted June 5, 2011 Actually the woman who is being lied to and cheated on is in much worse of a position. She is clueless and trusts her husband. Whereas the other woman knows exactly what she is dealing with. A man who is married to another and willing to lie to his wife, his kids, his friends and coworkers to sneak around. In other words the mistress has her eyes wide open and the wife is totally in the dark.
26pointblue Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I thought the same thing about my xMM's BW. I pitied her for staying with a man who lied to her. Then I found out he was lying to me big-time too, & it hit home that with his actions he was staying married to her. So he was honoring promises he'd made to her, & not me, & when I realized that, I began to see I had been foolish to think it was the same thing. Then once when she called me up & talked to me she said that his actions were showing he wanted to stay married & just have me on the side- I had to agree with her as I had aleady been thinking the same thing. She also said that I don't understand the history of being together/married for 20 years or so & building a life together & havig a family together. I guess she was right about that too since I have never been married. I think she was staying with him in large part because of the past whereas I was staying with him for the future . . . I was holding onto a fantasy & she was holding onto reality. But yes as others have pointed out we were both dealing with a guy who lied & cheated & we were both allowing him to do that. Sometimes I think about their kids & realize, well, what was she supposed to do, break up her family because her husband was having an affair with me while telling her he wanted to stay married to her? I guess the difference in our positions was that I was there by choice & she was there not at all by choice at all. Yeah she had the choice to be done with him but that would involve a huge change for her family that she herself had never wanted or planned. And I know he was telling her he wanted the family to stay together & would do anything . . . so I'm sure it would be hard for her not to have hope, just like I had hope he would get divorced & so I listened to his pleadings & gave into them for too long. But I was doing it just for me & she was doing it in part for their kids. When I think of that I feel crummy. I did a bunch of stupid things selifshly that are hard to get over & whenever I hurt or miss him I realize I brought this on myself. Whereas she didn't, so, there's the difference in position. I can't get out of my head that she told me that she was tired of being hurt by him & had kicked him out & was done with him but he came back begging & pleading for another chance. She told me she was not going to let him hurt her anymore & was guarding her heart, but, had still let him come home. I felt like I could have been saying that . . . that I was tired of him hurting me & was done with him but he came begging & pleading back & I kept taking him back. So yes the very same position but WHY was I doing it when I didn't have kids with him or a long marriage/history or all of our family & assets intertwined etc. I suppose I can see reasons to forgive & try to work it out in that scenario. What I can't wrap my head around is why --I--- kept taking him back, when I didn't have any parts of that scenario & could have been free of that hurtful relationship like i am now. I guess it was just wanting so badly for it to work out & being afraid to let go.
White Flower Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) If the OW is fooling herself in believing MM tells her the truth, doesn’t love his W, or lies about his M, how is it that BW is in a better position? Bw gets lied to during the A and lied to on Dday. If its naïve to think MM doesn’t love his W, isn’t it naïve to think MM couldn’t love the OW. Isn’t the BW’s position that she can only go by what MM tells her about the OW and the A the same as it’s said OW couldn’t possibly know what MM’s M or W is really like?It's the same position. I think a lot of the time it's the to and fro the sets the imbalance of opinion. After staying home a while after D-day W feels a sense of knowing it all as well as a (false?) sense of love. (love may in fact be there). But lo and behold when MM comes knocking OW is filled in with 'what really happened' and she gets the sense that she has the truth, and that she is loved. Sometimes both are loved, sometimes none are, and sometimes one is. Point is, no one can really be sure. I suppose I can see reasons to forgive & try to work it out in that scenario. What I can't wrap my head around is why --I--- kept taking him back, when I didn't have any parts of that scenario & could have been free of that hurtful relationship like i am now. I guess it was just wanting so badly for it to work out & being afraid to let go. 26pointblue, I suppose because you don't have children you look at the nuclear family with awe and wonderment. That's great, but that in itself does not validate anyone's M, the family only ads to the joy of the M. What matters is, does the MP really fit with the spouse 20, 30, 40 years after growing (Together? Apart?), and depending on the answer to that, is the MP truly happy? If not, how can he make his partner, his kids, or himself happy? Truth be told he should have worked all this out in IC rather than go back and forth and lying to both but it looks like he chose the easy path, the lesser of two evils and you feel better about a family staying together even if it sounds like the BW took on a self-sacrifice in doing so. When I say lesser of two evils I don't mean the W is evil. I mean choosing to stay is easiest, but dealing with the aftermath is hard. Unless of course it is my MM's BW. She just grins from ear to ear like Goofy and doesn't question a thing as long as he's there. Edited June 6, 2011 by White Flower
woinlove Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I thought the same thing about my xMM's BW. I pitied her for staying with a man who lied to her. Then I found out he was lying to me big-time too, & it hit home that with his actions he was staying married to her. So he was honoring promises he'd made to her, & not me, & when I realized that, I began to see I had been foolish to think it was the same thing. Then once when she called me up & talked to me she said that his actions were showing he wanted to stay married & just have me on the side- I had to agree with her as I had aleady been thinking the same thing. She also said that I don't understand the history of being together/married for 20 years or so & building a life together & havig a family together. I guess she was right about that too since I have never been married. I think she was staying with him in large part because of the past whereas I was staying with him for the future . . . I was holding onto a fantasy & she was holding onto reality. But yes as others have pointed out we were both dealing with a guy who lied & cheated & we were both allowing him to do that. Sometimes I think about their kids & realize, well, what was she supposed to do, break up her family because her husband was having an affair with me while telling her he wanted to stay married to her? I guess the difference in our positions was that I was there by choice & she was there not at all by choice at all. Yeah she had the choice to be done with him but that would involve a huge change for her family that she herself had never wanted or planned. And I know he was telling her he wanted the family to stay together & would do anything . . . so I'm sure it would be hard for her not to have hope, just like I had hope he would get divorced & so I listened to his pleadings & gave into them for too long. But I was doing it just for me & she was doing it in part for their kids. When I think of that I feel crummy. I did a bunch of stupid things selifshly that are hard to get over & whenever I hurt or miss him I realize I brought this on myself. Whereas she didn't, so, there's the difference in position. I can't get out of my head that she told me that she was tired of being hurt by him & had kicked him out & was done with him but he came back begging & pleading for another chance. She told me she was not going to let him hurt her anymore & was guarding her heart, but, had still let him come home. I felt like I could have been saying that . . . that I was tired of him hurting me & was done with him but he came begging & pleading back & I kept taking him back. So yes the very same position but WHY was I doing it when I didn't have kids with him or a long marriage/history or all of our family & assets intertwined etc. I suppose I can see reasons to forgive & try to work it out in that scenario. What I can't wrap my head around is why --I--- kept taking him back, when I didn't have any parts of that scenario & could have been free of that hurtful relationship like i am now. I guess it was just wanting so badly for it to work out & being afraid to let go. I think you capture a lot of the similarities and differences between the AP and BS. As to the W trying to work it out, besides the fact that they may share family and children bonds that they enjoy and value, they may also have shared years of loyalty. If the H was faithful and loving before, the W may see the possibility that he could become that again. By contrast, the AP has typically only seen the WS when he/she is deceitful.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 IMO, there truly ARE some people who are incapable of being with only one person. Some of them are honest and seek an open M while others simply lie their way to getting a second person on the side. It's the liars I abhor, and I so wish for all involved that more people would hold the liars' feet to the fire. In those cases I feel the BS is in a "better position" for lack of more appropriate terminology. They do get the whole family, house, status,etc., such as it is.
Spark1111 Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 If the OW is fooling herself in believing MM tells her the truth, doesn’t love his W, or lies about his M, how is it that BW is in a better position? Bw gets lied to during the A and lied to on Dday. If its naïve to think MM doesn’t love his W, isn’t it naïve to think MM couldn’t love the OW. Isn’t the BW’s position that she can only go by what MM tells her about the OW and the A the same as it’s said OW couldn’t possible know what MM’s M or W is really like? Yes, of course. Just as he minimizes the marriage and his feelings for his spouse to get the OW to engage in the affair, after DDAY he does the same exact thing with the BS and minimizes the affair and the feelings he may have had for the OW. Either way, very cowardly, donctha think? The biggest difference is you knew about the BS going into it, so you had to buy how miserable the marriage and the spouse was, hook, line and sinker. Why'd you do that? Many a BS, when he comes begging to return after DDAY and tries to do that to the OW/OM does not. Some do, some do not. The only way to discern the truth is to try to speak with each other, yet so often here, the advice is not to ever return a BS's phone call, that her issues are with her H. And to me, that is just cowardly too.
White Flower Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 The only way to discern the truth is to try to speak with each other, yet so often here, the advice is not to ever return a BS's phone call, that her issues are with her H. And to me, that is just cowardly too.I agree. I texted BW and invited her to call me back. She never did.
BB07 Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Yes, of course. Just as he minimizes the marriage and his feelings for his spouse to get the OW to engage in the affair, after DDAY he does the same exact thing with the BS and minimizes the affair and the feelings he may have had for the OW. Either way, very cowardly, donctha think? The biggest difference is you knew about the BS going into it, so you had to buy how miserable the marriage and the spouse was, hook, line and sinker. Why'd you do that? Many a BS, when he comes begging to return after DDAY and tries to do that to the OW/OM does not. Some do, some do not. The only way to discern the truth is to try to speak with each other, yet so often here, the advice is not to ever return a BS's phone call, that her issues are with her H. And to me, that is just cowardly too. In the majority of cases the MM knows that the chances of both women talking honestly and openly are slim to none so he uses this to his advantage in playing one against the other. The OW feels she needs to protect him from the (evil) wife and the wife thinks the OW is an evil bitch who is just out to steal her man. Who has the advantage here......the mm has the majority of the power and control because he is manipulating both women and also he gets the ego strokes of TWO women fighting over him. Meanwhile the mm plays the poor conflicted soul to the hilt and keeps both women as long as they are both willing to play the game. Dr. Phil's rerun this morning was just this all too common scenario and NO I'm not saying all affairs are this but IMO the majority are.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 In the majority of cases the MM knows that the chances of both women talking honestly and openly are slim to none so he uses this to his advantage in playing one against the other. The OW feels she needs to protect him from the (evil) wife and the wife thinks the OW is an evil bitch who is just out to steal her man. Who has the advantage here......the mm has the majority of the power and control because he is manipulating both women and also he gets the ego strokes of TWO women fighting over him. Meanwhile the mm plays the poor conflicted soul to the hilt and keeps both women as long as they are both willing to play the game. Dr. Phil's rerun this morning was just this all too common scenario and NO I'm not saying all affairs are this but IMO the majority are. Yep. This scenario is played out over and over again here as relayed by many, many posters. Fortunately, some of them come out on the other side stronger and wiser. Unfortunately, some are so entrenched in their role they are unable to do what is best for themselves.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Unless you could crack their brains open and take a look, it is impossible to really see what anyone is thinking or feeling.Really? So that would include the times that an MM/MW tells their AP they aren't sleeping with their spouse then.
Silly_Girl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 In the majority of cases the MM knows that the chances of both women talking honestly and openly are slim to none so he uses this to his advantage in playing one against the other. My bf has said to both of us we could call the other one (i.e. Myself and his wife) if we wished, at different times in the process. There was one or two minimal contacts over the worst times, she didn't want to know anything from me, or even hear my name spoken aloud. We are very different like that! I would want to know what I was dealing with and get some clarification, but maybe she felt she could not have trusted me in any case.
BB07 Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 My bf has said to both of us we could call the other one (i.e. Myself and his wife) if we wished, at different times in the process. There was one or two minimal contacts over the worst times, she didn't want to know anything from me, or even hear my name spoken aloud. We are very different like that! I would want to know what I was dealing with and get some clarification, but maybe she felt she could not have trusted me in any case. That's great that he wasn't playing the game (ow vs bs) that so many mm do. Her preconceived impressions about you that I mentioned in the previous post are more than likely the reasons that she didn't want to talk to you. After all..........she viewed you as taking her husband.
Silly_Girl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 That's great that he wasn't playing the game (ow vs bs) that so many mm do. Her preconceived impressions about you that I mentioned in the previous post are more than likely the reasons that she didn't want to talk to you. After all..........she viewed you as taking her husband. I know. She doesn't think it now but she used to think I'd snuck in during the night wearing stripey clothes and a balaclava and a bag marked 'Swag' with duct tape and washing wire.... There were lots of assumptions made, I guess. Some were more right than I'd have believed. Some were way off.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 My MM admits he IS still sleeping with his W sometimes. It seems to go back and forth from and average amount, a little and none. He could be lying but I don't know why he would when he admit to all three of these frequencies. I would think that if he comes to the conclusion that you strongly dislike that he sleeps with his W, or you state he is no longer allowed to have sex with his wife if he wants to keep you in the picture and suddenly *voila* they are no longer having sex, that's when I'd have to assume he's lying.
2sure Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Who is in a better position, OW or BS? The question implies that they are in completion with each other for something. If anything they are competing for 2nd and third place. Bother losing positions with only MM in first. If it comes down to wondering if you have a better position or advantage over BS or OW....the actual relationship with the WS/ MM isnt as important to you as beating out the competition. And hey, it happens all the time. Both BS and OW/OM get caught up in it. It keeps them from acknowledging their place in the competition.
John Michael Kane Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 The OW is actually in a lower position than the BW because she's at risk for getting her wig yanked off.
whichwayisup Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 My MM admits he IS still sleeping with his W sometimes. It seems to go back and forth from and average amount, a little and none. He could be lying but I don't know why he would when he admit to all three of these frequencies. He isn't going to tell if you the real frequency of their sex life, and of course, as brought up in another thread of yours, he certainly is going to down play on how good it was. Why would he tell you he's having amazing hot sex with his wife! He's gonna say whatever suits him best so he can continue to have his cake and eat it too. Typical cake eating cheating spouse.
BB07 Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 My MM admits he IS still sleeping with his W sometimes. It seems to go back and forth from and average amount, a little and none. He could be lying but I don't know why he would when he admit to all three of these frequencies. Partial truth is a common tactic mm/mw use on both the ow/om and the bs. Tactic..........meaning it's manipulative but of course you wouldn't see it that way as you think you have the upper hand.
BB07 Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 He isn't going to tell if you the real frequency of their sex life, and of course, as brought up in another thread of yours, he certainly is going to down play on how good it was. Why would he tell you he's having amazing hot sex with his wife! He's gonna say whatever suits him best so he can continue to have his cake and eat it too. Typical cake eating cheating spouse. I do believe we said the same thing almost at the same time........just in a different ways.
Spark1111 Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I agree. I texted BW and invited her to call me back. She never did. Yep, proves my point exactly! Some people WANT to stick their head in the sand and just live there. Or, like many an OW believes the wife is evil, uncaring incarnate, the MM might have tried to protray you as some crazy, stalking, desperate OW. HE might have diminished your integrity in the ability to even TELL the truth to her. Or, she may just enjoy having her head in the sand.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 A WS will often lay the groundwork for the A by telling sad tales of a bad marriage with little or bad sex way before the AP considers an A.
bentnotbroken Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I know this does happen but in my specific situation I don't believe so. We knew each other casually but not enough for him to be thinking about setting up an affair. I really don't think he meant for anything like this to happen. Sometimes a man does just get caught up in feelings for a OW with out it being premeditated. Of course it is what he tells me but all his past relationships seem solid and I do not believe he cheated prior and do believe this is very hard on his stress level. never mind
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