White Flower Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Of course it used to be that any fWS who did that for his fBS was called all kinds of mean names. LoveShack seems to be one of those places that goes through cycles. Right now it's in the part of the cycle that has fewer active OW/MM (or supporters thereof). Of course, part of that may be because so many active OW left..... Or were banned in a support forum for OP no less.
Owl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Or were banned in a support forum for OP no less. Violation of TOS is how that happens, WF. For the vast majority of posters, that tends to be a direct result of their own actions/posts. I'll grant I've not agreed with some of the banishments that have occurred...but truthfully I've felt that most were earned.
White Flower Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Violation of TOS is how that happens, WF. For the vast majority of posters, that tends to be a direct result of their own actions/posts. I'll grant I've not agreed with some of the banishments that have occurred...but truthfully I've felt that most were earned.If so many BS didn't provoke, nor were allowed to...
Owl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Sorry WF, I gotta call "BS" on that one, and I don't mean betrayed spouse. I've been EQUALLY as provoked by any number of OW on this site over the years. We're all responsible for our own actions. How we respond to others...both on an internet forum and in "real life". Do some people post "provocative" threads and posts...yep. There are posters here (both OW and BS) that I simply cannot stand how they post/what they post. But...it's always my choice on how and where I respond. Now...back on topic. As far as the "ownership" issue...I'd agree that no one "owns" another in a relationship. BUT...somethings are OWED between partners in a relationship. There are EXPECTATIONS that are created in a relationship...and given that most people consider marriage to be a formalization of the love between to committed partners...the expectations there are greater than they would be for what is generally considered a "lesser" relationship, like dating, friendship, etc... So I don't OWN my wife. But, I feel that she OWES me honesty and committment. Just as I owe the same thing back to her. When we talk about "owning" a partner...remember the majority of the time that "ownership" is expected to work in both directions...one partner isn't expecting to "own" their spouse more than their spouse "owns" them. There are exceptions to every rule...I'm talking in generalizations again.
OWoman Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 perhaps because he/she feels that they can no longer trust their spouse, maybe they can't live with someone they feel disrespected them by cheating, maybe they feel that they can no longer look at their spouse without feeling intense anger at them for what they did, maybe they are afraid it will happen again, maybe they are just too sad to stay with them anymore i didn't give a flying fig about whether or not my husband had feelings for his affair partner... in terms of minimizing how i felt about it, his feelings towards her were irrelevant. i would have been hurt either way. Exactly! The A was certainly not meaningless to you! It affected you and your M in very direct ways! If an A was truly meaningless, the BS would shrug it off and life would continue as before, with zero impact on anyone. I think really few As are like that, though.
Owl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Exactly! The A was certainly not meaningless to you! It affected you and your M in very direct ways! If an A was truly meaningless, the BS would shrug it off and life would continue as before, with zero impact on anyone. I think really few As are like that, though. I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, Owoman. While the BS may feel that the AFFAIR RELATIONSHIP was "meaningless"...the AFFAIR ACTIONS (broken promises/vows, gaslighting, untruthfulness etc...) were still very damaging to the marital relationship. Just because they were hurt by the actions the WS took during the affair, that doesn't mean that it any way validates the affair relationship.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, Owoman. While the BS may feel that the AFFAIR RELATIONSHIP was "meaningless"...the AFFAIR ACTIONS (broken promises/vows, gaslighting, untruthfulness etc...) were still very damaging to the marital relationship. Just because they were hurt by the actions the WS took during the affair, that doesn't mean that it any way validates the affair relationship. Totally agree Owl. Besides, the term "meaningful," as previously used in this thread, has a COMPLETELY different meaning than is being proposed now.
OWoman Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, Owoman. While the BS may feel that the AFFAIR RELATIONSHIP was "meaningless"...the AFFAIR ACTIONS (broken promises/vows, gaslighting, untruthfulness etc...) were still very damaging to the marital relationship. Just because they were hurt by the actions the WS took during the affair, that doesn't mean that it any way validates the affair relationship. I don't disagree with you, Owl. Earlier in this thread, someone was jumped on for using the phrase "meaningful A" by posters who claimed that an A was necessarily meaningless. My point was that As are not meaningless - sure, a BS may choose to believe (correctly or otherwise, depending on the situation) that the OW or the A R meant nothing to the WS, but that does not automatically render the A (the fact of it) meaningless. I'm sure there are some As that are totally meaningless. It would appear from media reports that Anne Sinclair was unfazed by her husband's philandering, as she felt that it was necessary for a politician to be able to seduce - seeing it as a measure of his success, it would seem. (Though perhaps that would count as ascribing positive meaning to the As? Not sure...) And I'm sure some As that are never found out by the BS, and that are later completely forgotten by the WS, leave no traces of meaning too. But I don't think those are "the average A" as experienced by most of the posters on this forum.
OWoman Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 i m sorry, but you don't seem to understand what I meant. lets say my it was a one night stand kind of thing ( meaningless sex with a willing partner for self gratification) and I found out about it, it would probably have felt no different. It's the act of cheating that mattered to me. not who it was with or anything else. i don't see how this attaches "meaning" to the (albeit vey brief) "affair" I understand perfectly what you meant. But perhaps you are not understanding my point. The act of betrayal mattered to you. It was not meaningless. Whether or not your WS felt anything for the OW was irrelevant. Thus, the A mattered. It was not meaningless.
Silly_Girl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I'm not sure I agree with that assessment, Owoman. While the BS may feel that the AFFAIR RELATIONSHIP was "meaningless"...the AFFAIR ACTIONS (broken promises/vows, gaslighting, untruthfulness etc...) were still very damaging to the marital relationship. Yes, they were very damaging. And they meant enough at the time, to the WS, to make them. For whatever reason. Whether the WS regrets them or not, they happened. I feel that gives meaning to the affair from the off. By which I mean the relationship of the AP's has some meaning. That meaning may be some funky sex and a bit of a laugh, but - as we hear all the time on here - NO ONE falls in to an affair. The WS made those choices consciously and knowingly. They wanted the affair, AT THAT POINT, as much as they wanted their marriage. Whether the depth of the AP relationship bears out is another matter.
donnamaybe Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Whether the depth of the AP relationship bears out is another matter. I think that's the whole point.
2sure Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 None of it is meaningless. I think "meaningless" when used in discussing affairs is meant to convey that the AP and the affair itself was not seen as a threat to the marriage - usually this is said by the WS and sometimes by the BS. Meaningless, non-threatening - harmless. My H's infidelities were absolutely meaningless to him in that regard. He never felt his actions were alone threating the marriage. As the BS, I knew that the OW were meaningless to him and that they were not a threat personally to the marriage. His actions were meaningful , threatening, and harmful simply because as unimportant as they were to him...by hiding them he gave his actions the power to betray, and acknowledged that doing what he wanted was more important to him than Me.
John Michael Kane Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Of course none of it is meaningless. It's meaningful because it shows how low one can go in order to hurt someone.
silktricks Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Yes, they were very damaging. And they meant enough at the time, to the WS, to make them. For whatever reason. Whether the WS regrets them or not, they happened. I feel that gives meaning to the affair from the off. By which I mean the relationship of the AP's has some meaning. That meaning may be some funky sex and a bit of a laugh, but - as we hear all the time on here - NO ONE falls in to an affair. The WS made those choices consciously and knowingly. They wanted the affair, AT THAT POINT, as much as they wanted their marriage. Whether the depth of the AP relationship bears out is another matter. I don't think this is a valid argument. Often (not always of course:)) an MM just figures he's never going to get caught. He doesn't think of it as an either/or situation, and doesn't compare the desire of remaining married to the desire of having an affair. Then sometimes he really does fall in love. That person probably does feel that they want the affair as much (or possibly more ??) than they want their marriage. But to assume that a WS simply by virtue of having an affair wants the affair as much as the marriage is not valid.
Owl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 They wanted the affair, AT THAT POINT, as much as they wanted their marriage. Not at all. As a matter of fact, I'll go so far as to say RARELY. What that really means is that AT THAT POINT...they aren't thinking about their marriage at all. Not the same as wanting (whatever) as much as the marriage... It's compartmentalization at its finest. In the moment that they're doing (whatever) they're not thinking about their marriage. Its also common that when they're with their spouse...they're not thinking about their (whatever). They intentionally, deliberately seperate the two. See the difference?
Silly_Girl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I don't think this is a valid argument. Often (not always of course:)) an MM just figures he's never going to get caught. He doesn't think of it as an either/or situation, and doesn't compare the desire of remaining married to the desire of having an affair. Then sometimes he really does fall in love. That person probably does feel that they want the affair as much (or possibly more ??) than they want their marriage. But to assume that a WS simply by virtue of having an affair wants the affair as much as the marriage is not valid. I do think, at that point, that second, it's what he wants the most, not 24/7, not all the time, not for ever perhaps. But we make choices all the time and prioritise and make decisions based what's in front of us. His feelings and needs are first. Maybe after, or even during, that's not the case but he makes the choice.
Owl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I do think, at that point, that second, it's what he wants the most, not 24/7, not all the time, not for ever perhaps. But we make choices all the time and prioritise and make decisions based what's in front of us. His feelings and needs are first. Maybe after, or even during, that's not the case but he makes the choice. You're assuming he's comparing the two...weighing between the two at that point. He's not. He's not thinking about comparisons between the two, or which he wants more at that point. Its not that he wants one more than the other...he seperates the two...not choosing one over the other.
thomasb Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Yes, they were very damaging. And they meant enough at the time, to the WS, to make them. For whatever reason. Whether the WS regrets them or not, they happened. I feel that gives meaning to the affair from the off. By which I mean the relationship of the AP's has some meaning. That meaning may be some funky sex and a bit of a laugh, but - as we hear all the time on here - NO ONE falls in to an affair. The WS made those choices consciously and knowingly. They wanted the affair, AT THAT POINT, as much as they wanted their marriage. Whether the depth of the AP relationship bears out is another matter. You have this wrong in my sitch. I never in a sober moment would have engaged with OW. After it happened I (mistakenly) thought that my wife would never forgive me so it continued. I never thought of OW in the same light as my dear wife.
silktricks Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I do think, at that point, that second, it's what he wants the most, not 24/7, not all the time, not for ever perhaps. But we make choices all the time and prioritise and make decisions based what's in front of us. His feelings and needs are first. Maybe after, or even during, that's not the case but he makes the choice. (I'm sick of saying "in many/most cases", so please assume that for the rest of this post, OK? ) I would change this to "what he wants is first". But even then you're assuming that he is making a considered choice. He isn't. There isn't an either/or going on in his head. There is only an "I want that". He isn't figuring that he'll have to give up one for the other even at that second. He just wants what he wants. That isn't prioritization, it's just greed. Think of a 2 year old...
2sure Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 Eh, you know how everyone is always explaining: I love you, but Im not IN love with you. ? WS/ OW use it all the time to help justify/understand/ accept why the WS is having an affair. Loves his wife, but is no longer IN love with her. Clearly they are able to define and separate LOVE vs IN Love. And I have to tell you...of the two - I would much prefer LOVE for a long haul. I mean, Ive been IN Love many times. I LOVE very few of them. So, anyway my point is that a WS being completely IN Love with an AP still really doesnt make the AP the most meaningful part of the affair. When OW hears that he LOVES his wife, but is IN love with her (OW) , in my opinion thats like saying: This is fun and I am important but you are meaningless. The WS will use the same argument to his BS: She made me feel good, but its YOU I LOVE. I bring this up only because so often the meaningless argument includes the Love vs In Love conversation.
Snowflower Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 You have this wrong in my sitch. I never in a sober moment would have engaged with OW. After it happened I (mistakenly) thought that my wife would never forgive me so it continued. I never thought of OW in the same light as my dear wife. Why did you let the affair start and then continue if you really didn't want a relationship with the OW? I don't wish to threadjack OR call you out, thomas, it is interesting what you wrote here. PM me if you wish!
silktricks Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) In regards to "meaningless" For someone to post on this board that by definition an affair is "meaningless" is IMO meaningless. Some affairs are meaningful to both AP's, some are not. What is certain, though is that a bunch of people on the internet probably really don't have the level of insight into someone's relationship as do the people in it. That said, for some AP's the affair is meaningless, in that they are only in it for fun and sex not a relationship, and likewise for some BS, as some probably really don't care, as long as the marriage stays intact. There really isn't any one size fits all in this life. Like 2sure, for me the issue was not so much the affair as it was the lying. That part certainly wasn't meaningless - and my husband well knew that it wouldn't be. He knew that it was the lies that would get me more than anything, as he knew my history. Was the affair "meaningless" to me? No, it wasn't. But the lies were even more meaningful. Was the affair "meaningless" to the OW? I'm sure not, as if it was she wouldn't have continued on her harassing course for upwards of 2 years after he ended it. But, was the affair "meaningless" to the WS, my husband? Well, at the time he was involved, I don't think it was. I think she/the attention meant a great deal to him. Did he, however, consider it/her to be of more significance than his marriage? I don't think it ever crossed his mind to compare the two. He wanted our marriage to continue, and while he was involved with the OW, he also wanted that relationship to continue, else he wouldn't have continued it. However, after the affair was over, then he considered it to be meaningless, because he was no longer interested in it. Anyway, I think saying something is "meaningless" is pretty much meaningless, unless you are saying it about something you personally are involved in, and even then you can only say it about your part. Edited June 6, 2011 by silktricks
White Flower Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 In regards to "meaningless" For someone to post on this board that by definition an affair is "meaningless" is IMO meaningless. Some affairs are meaningful to both AP's, some are not. What is certain, though is that a bunch of people on the internet probably really don't have the level of insight into someone's relationship as do the people in it. That said, for some AP's the affair is meaningless, in that they are only in it for fun and sex not a relationship, and likewise for some BS, as some probably really don't care, as long as the marriage stays intact. There really isn't any one size fits all in this life. Like 2sure, for me the issue was not so much the affair as it was the lying. That part certainly wasn't meaningless - and my husband well knew that it wouldn't be. He knew that it was the lies that would get me more than anything, as he knew my history. Was the affair "meaningless" to me? No, it wasn't. But the lies were even more meaningful. Was the affair "meaningless" to the OW? I'm sure not, as if it was she wouldn't have continued on her harassing course for upwards of 2 years after he ended it. But, was the affair "meaningless" to the WS, my husband? Well, at the time he was involved, I don't think it was. I think she/the attention meant a great deal to him. Did he, however, consider it/her to be of more significance than his marriage? I don't think it ever crossed his mind to compare the two. He wanted our marriage to continue, and while he was involved with the OW, he also wanted that relationship to continue, else he wouldn't have continued it. However, after the affair was over, then he considered it to be meaningless, because he was no longer interested in it. Anyway, I think saying something is "meaningless" is pretty much meaningless, unless you are saying it about something you personally are involved in, and even then you can only say it about your part. Excellent insight Silk!
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