GF Cheated..Feel Disrespected, Betrayed.

[GXY3]

Let me start off by saying that I have few regrets in life and I try to learn from experience rather than be sorry for what has happened. I realize now that maybe I should have waited longer to live together with my girlfriend. I love her dearly and I know that we are not married but I am tormented by what happened early in our relationship. I don't trust her... I am trying to. We have lived together for the past year. However, I am a man I feel a bit emasculated by her disrespect.

 

I met "Melanie" on-line about a year and half ago. I think she searched a keyword that matched something in my profile and viewed me. I saw that she did that so I viewed her, I thought she was pretty and sounded nice but she lived kind of far away so I did not give it another thought. Then later when I saw that she had viewed me again I figured what the heck so I emailed her. She replied relatively quickly. It seemed we were able to talk email wise right away. We talked about the basics but then we started right into things about one another’s lives--what we want, what we’ve done, where we’ve been, who we've met and all that. We seem to hit it off more with each email becoming longer and more detailed. It was awesome like many new relationships, we could not get enough of one another. After a week of that we then went to talking on the phone. That was great too. We talked and talked, texted and emailed. We seemed to connect. She and I had so much in common we could spend hours on the phone. Finally after three weeks we met in person. Wow, it seemed right…right from the start. She was beautiful, smart and wonderful and I believed she thought a lot of me as well. She lived about 2 ½ hours away from me, but we agreed that we should start to date and see one another exclusively. We also agreed that if we became physical that would mean only one partner and that's it—exclusivity. Things were going very well, it became physical after three weeks. After about two months of seeing one another almost every weekend and talking and texting on the phone several times a day, we decided that it was time to meet one another’s families. I have three kids from a previous marriage and she has two kids from two previous men including one marriage. We all met at dinner and it seemed to go well. I also met her parents around this time and all seemed right. We were in love (or at least I was). No one else existed to me except for her. We lived far apart, but she consumed my being. I fell hard for her. I tried to play it kind of cool by saying that relationships come and go and that I was smart enough to know that things may or may not last, but I knew deep within that I was putty in her hands. We seemed to want the same things. We talked openly (so I thought) about being together one day. So, we agreed that we should look into the possibilities of living together. It was a fast moving train, and I wanted on...everything seemed so right even though there were some red flags I ignored. I agreed that I could accommodate her and her two kids at my home, so I started down the path of home renovation; we even went so far as to talk about our the future including marriage and another child perhaps?? The home renovations were not small tasks and to get them done by the beginning of summer I worked tirelessly myself and with the contractor to obtain the permits and get the space finished in time. While my house renovations were underway we saw each other each weekend and talked/emailed/texted daily. She stayed in her home 2 ½ hours away but I would go visit her and she would bring her kids and visit me until it was time to move in with me. Finally, after two months of working to get the new space built, she and her kids moved in. It was great. She moved in and all was well until that one fateful day about a month into our living together-- I found pictures of a man on her computer when I was helping her son with a game that would not load properly. Many of the pictures appeared in her Recent Documents. They were pictures of the same man visiting different places. Nothing racy, just him touring around, but they were all of this man--all the shots seemed to be intimate, like taken from a camera phone or a camera close up--usually him smiling. Some of the shots were taken of him by someone else in touristy places. Many were nice photographs of places too. At first she denied any meaning to them and said that she was looking at pictures to delete, however, these pictures of this guy were not deleted, rather saved in Picasso under his name--many, many of them. She said he was a "friend"; --later this turned into a man that she said she had a relationship with that became a "friend" . Red flags were hoisted in my mind. We'll call him "picture guy". Now Melanie had told me about picture guy at the beginning of our relationship but she said that he was gone out of her life and she had not seen him in months. She may had even said a year. I asked her again to elaborate about the pictures and she denied any wrong doing. I let it lie. I was bothered slightly, but nothing really registered so much. Then a few days later I walked into the hallway of our home, when she seemed startled holding her cell phone, I asked her what she was doing and she said texting her sister. I asked to see the phone and then she said no. This raised my suspicions. I respect privacy, but I really started to think she was hiding things from me. Sometime shortly after this I mentioned that I was a bit suspicious so I asked if she would login into her email so we could look at it together. At first she said no, but then agreed. Immediately it was evident that she was uncomfortable. At that point our relationship was never the same, in her account were daily emails to and from her to this "friend" (picture guy) who after she confessed was really her on-again off-again love interest. My heart sank and I had a lump in my gut. She gave me permission to go through the emails, every gut wrenching one. I don't know why she said it was ok to go through them, but she allowed me to. The emails were about love and how much she loved him and missed him and couldn’t wait to be with him sometime again. They talked about hopes and dreams of one another. Some of them had intimate pictures of her, naked and in various stages of undress. I was devastated. The emails were continuously from about the time shortly after we met until a month after she moved in with me (time of discovery). One of the emails was a receipt for a gift she sent to him with the card attached "I will love you all of my life.." written in Italian sent to him about 3 weeks before she moved in with me. These were not light words, they were emotion filled, true love, expressions of real feelings. Even with the photos, none of the textual matter seemed to be too sexual in nature, rather they mostly her feelings for him. There were many texts stating similar feelings to him as well. I did not know what to do. Here I was, just moved this woman I met on the internet into my house with her two kids -- I was in shock. Even though our relationship was new and young it was painful none the less and this had already zapped the innocence of new love like a lightning bolt severs a sprouting sapling trunk. She said that this all happened when she changed her status on facebook to "in a relationship". She said he immediately contacted her to ask about the situation and that's how she started back with him. To that point, I had made it clear that I always wanted honesty and that I wanted her and I to be able to talk about anything, no matter how hard it was. She agreed. She said nothing happened between them after we met, just emails, texts and a few calls. I did not believe her although I tried to. I asked her if she meant it when she wrote that she wanted to be with him and she said no. Again the red flags flying high in my mind. I asked her to never contact him again and she showed me the email she sent to him telling him that it was over between them and that she did not wish to communicate with him any longer. She then showed me his response. It seemed legitimate. After some time I agreed we could see what happens and try to work it out. I demanded that there be zero contact with him!!! I was going to try to forgive and begin re-building our short relationship

 

I need to say that she is a habitual liar. She tells white lies and lies that do not mean much, rather she would almost lie for the sake of lying. She said she has struggled with this all of her life--needing to embellish or not be truthful. For example, during our months apart in the beginning, she would like to go out with her girlfriends at night and not tell me about it. She thought it was ok to get a babysitter and then go out to dance with her friends. She would tell me that she was going to dinner or play a game at a friend's. Sometimes, we would be on the phone until 10 or 11 at night together and then she would proceed to go out after our call. She knew my belief that rarely does anything good come from a person in a committed relationship going to a club with friends after 10 p.m. It's just is asking for trouble. I have been around the world and I know what men think late at night, in a club, after drinks... period. Anyway, she would tell me half truths and partial stories. I did not want to appear controlling or overbearing, but the more I got to know her the less I found myself able to believe her. Although my heart was in it 100% , my head was not.

 

 

After several months, I became suspicious of her story about the picture guy again. You know how if you analyze something and think about all of the circumstances and what was happening at that time you can get to the truth. Just like an investigator might do. So I confronted her on it. It was an instinct I had that made me think a lot of what she told me did not add up (trust your instincts). We went out to eat one day and I looked into her eyes and said "tell me the truth, did you see him after we met?" She said she did not want to talk about it. I asked her again, and again. Finally, she confessed that yes, she had been out with him four times to lunch and other meetings at her house/his house to review pictures (a hobby--photography) while we were living apart. I was again devastated. I felt like crying or yelling or something right there in the restaurant. My heart raced and I felt ill. My stomach felt as if it received the business end of shovel. She assured me nothing happened. This after she assured me there was nothing beyond electronic communications previously. Melanie told me that she loved me but was confused about us. She said that at the time she was not quite sure she wanted to move away with me. She told me that she was trying to make him jealous, which makes no sense. I was contemplating our relationship and I pushed this matter with her for quite awhile because I could tell she was not being up front with me. Finally, after much discussion, she admitted to being with him physically (sex) once since we met. Again, my heart-- slam dunked. So, after this I had to the know details of what happened. She shared some like the fact that they did not have intercourse rather it involved mutual stimulation. I was sick. I wanted to leave her at that moment. In such a short time I loved her so much, I was surprised how much it hurt me..but it did a lot!! We talked about it some more and I probed for the truth, she was steadfast in her story for months up until recently. When again, after months of pondering on this issue, stuff just did not add up. I asked her one more time, was there anything else she was not telling me. She said that there was nothing left, she had told me EVERYTHING. Well I did not accept this answer. Instinct told me other wise so, I kept on seeking the truth, relentlessly, almost obsessively through conversations and discussion. Finally, the truth seeped out and she admitted that yes, she was intimate with him. She did it 7 times while we lived apart. She said she would meet him during lunch hours and on her days off during the day while her kids were in school to give him oral sex and kiss him and other things but no intercourse. For some reason they could not complete the act. She said they did that once when she first met him. I still have a hard time believing this. But it does not matter, damage done. My broken heart was beginning to shatter at this point. She then said that she truly loved him but he did not love her the same way. She said she never had so much chemistry with a person and that he was beautiful. She said she has never been so physically attracted to someone as she was to him. She even told me that he had the largest penis of any man she'd ever been with. Well, with that information and my ego, heart and soul pulverized, my stubborn desire for the truth said "press-on". I am not small by any means but I felt terrible, but I wanted honesty...and I was getting it, at least in part. She told me that they never really were committed to one another. She said she had strong feelings for him, and he did not so much for her. They were on and off for months. Now, today, she says that it was a major mistake and that she regrets it terribly. She loves me now and no one else.

When I ask her why this happened she still says that before she moved in with me she was confused and unsure about us. The funny thing is though, when I go back and look at our texts and emails from the beginning and when I remember our conversations from early on, they all seem to point to her commitment to me, one even said that she could not wait to live with me. She said she continued this relationship with him because she did not want to be hurt again by another man as she’d been hurt in past relationships. Something I don’t get. I asked her why she continued to communicate with him after moving in with me and she said she wanted to hurt him-- I don’t get that either???…somehow make him jealous on what he lost out on? But I don't believe it because buried in our conversations has been the fact that she loved this man and wanted to be with him. She said she would not have moved two and half hours away to a strange town with me if he would have been willing to commit to her. I feel like I am her Plan B. I think she had this relationship with me while working him in the hopes of getting him to commit and then she could stay in her town with him--the man she really loved. By the way I did not mention that her house was getting foreclosed on and she did not tell me this, she said that her ex-husband was taking over the house when she moved out. So now, looking back I was a man who could provide her and her kids somewhere to live, stability and solvency but he was a man that she loved -- but he did not want her the same way--he never even met her kids. I chose to try to forgive and I decided that we should stay together. I once again asked that she never contact him again, she assured me that she had not since that email.

 

Then a couple of months ago, I discovered that she texted him again. I saw a number on the phone bill that I questioned her on. She said she did not know whose it was. I called the number and it went to a voicemail that had not been activated. I went on-line and discovered the number belonged to some guy I did not know. I asked her again and again about it and she even went so far as to text the number in front of me asking who this number belonged to. Which as it turned out was a charade. Here I was, I had this strange name and number from the same town as where Melanie lived that did not match picture guy's. So I thought. Was she having another relationship with someone else? My imagination was working overtime. I was consumed with distrust and worry. But I was also resolved to the fact that I will find out the truth. So, after some investigation and through much discussion I found out that the number did indeed belong to picture guy! The on-line information had his cell phone tied to someone else by mistake? Anyway, slammo to me!! She said that the texts were nothing and that she was just offering her condolences about a death in his family that she heard about through her friend. She said it was to say sorry about the death and that was it. I went into the phone records and saw that there was an exchange of six texts to/from his number, she said it was just all about the death and nothing else. I re-iterated to her, that if she wants to be with me there must be zero, ZERO contact with him. I said we'd be done if she ever did it again. She agreed.

 

We have kids so a lot of our time we act and interact happily, but her and I both know what's brewing under the surface. The famlies are bonding in the past year. We all have become attached. I love her kids and I think she loves mine, but I still struggle with these events so mightily. She helps me with my kids--she is good with them for the most part, she works, helps around the house, helps with shopping, sports and I do help with her kids as well. Our families are blending, even though we have issues, the blending is happening. The longer the blending occurs, the harder it will be to break it off...We certainly argue a lot and despite that, when things are good they are very good at times. When things go bad I remember the worst. I remember picture guy. Recently we had a date night where we went out to a very nice dinner but it was ruined by the end of the night because we, or more accurately, I brought up the past. Sometimes it seems so unfair to her as well, I should just forgive it and move on right? I know I really want to but so far I cannot. She still supposedly wants to get married, she has apologized numerous times, she has said that she is truly sorry. She says that regrets telling me what she has but I admire the fact that she told the truth, albeit late and probably not whole. I am skeptical but I do love her so. Weird how the heart wants what the head doesn't. As I said, she does have an issue as a perpetual liar and I am not sure how to handle that. We have been up and down like the proveribial rollercoaster, my emotions get the best of me sometimes and I will want to talk about it and it brings us back again. I am really having a hard time forgiving these past indiscretions. Sometimes, she gets really mad because I bring it up and she says that I just want to "rub her nose in it" and that I should get over it.

 

Since the "condolences" texts there have been no indications of anything else going on. However, I am not naive enough to believe that if she wanted to contact him without me knowing she could using another email account or some pay-per-use cell phone/card or something. I now watch her closely and monitor her behaivor. This I know is not healthy. Sometimes I think she meets him or I also get suspicious about her at work, even whether she is seeing someone else. Our trust is shot!! I am exhausted worrying about this. I am now at a point where I need to decide to continue or should I break it off. Should I just get over it and trust her or are there underlying systemic issues that I should be concerned with here? Is it once a cheater always a cheater or forgive and forget—are people are good? Do people change? I don't expect to solve it with input solicited here, rather just get opinions thanks for reading my relationship tale of woe It seems to be theraputic just writing about it.

Edited June 4, 2011 by GXY3
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[Unadulterated]

First of all, that was a bitch to read. Please insert some more paragraphs.

 

Second, leave that girl NOW. That relationship sounds like it's gone far beyond toxic and into radioactive. It won't be easy, but you know that staying with her will just cause more and more problems, and she WILL cheat again.

 

I'm the kind of guy who tries to find a light in a failing relationship, to give the person hope it'll work, but here I can't find anything. End it.

[seibert253]

It's a shame, really.

You know that if you stay with this woman you will have to constantly, for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, check up and keep tabs on her. Do you really want to live like that?

I wouldn't.

[zuzuzoggins]

it seems like she had an infatuation with this other guy,which is not love but she may think it is..but i would have thought by the time u have kids u know what real love is- mutual trust , support and loyalty but maybe she was hurt in the past??...you need to be firm with her..i would recommend at least taking space from each other..not living together..tell her her behaviour is unacceptable and you want to break up until she is clear about her feelings and what she wants...then date her and take things slow to create some spark between you which she is craving, she obviously gets off on games and not stability...you need to teach her what real love is about and make her appreciate it!!!! if you got back to living together u could make her give you her passwords etc..til you feel ready to trust again...but you have more than every right to break things off as you deserve better..good luck

[KOH]

first of all, walls of texts make people ignore the thread.

 

second of all, dump her, she's no good.

[Memphis Raines]

GXY3

 

Dump her now or you WILL regret it. Why stay with someone that would betray you and disrespect you like that?

 

there are so many other decent girls in the world out there for you. don't waste your time on this wench any longer.

[GXY3]

I am thinking about what to do next...it's not easy obviously...so many things to consider. I appreciate everyone taking the time to read and offer an opinon. I've tried to edit it to make it more readable but editing it once is the only option......

 

I have a lot to decide on ..............soon!!!

[Scorpio6913]

I am thinking about what to do next...it's not easy obviously...so many things to consider. I appreciate everyone taking the time to read and offer an opinon. I've tried to edit it to make it more readable but editing it once is the only option......

 

I have a lot to decide on ..............soon!!!

 

You have a lot to decide on????

You must have very low self esteem, no offense, I have at times too, but man!

I think you should read through Pierre's original post & read some of the comments that were made, at least he got it!

I'm sorry GXY3, but you are being used and big time for your financials, not "Her love for you", as she "DOESN'T HAVE ANY"!

[John Michael Kane]

You shouldn't even be thinking what to do next. It should be second nature.

[Chi townD]

You should settle to be second best, or someone's second choice. If this guy she was interested in told her to leave you, I have a feeling she would do it in a second and leave you in the dust wondering what the hell just happened.

 

Believe me, there is a girl that WILL put you first in her heart (unless she has kids, then you're a close second.) A girl that will never treat you with such disrespect. However, you need to start respecting yourself, because you don't deserve to be treated this way.

[GXY3]

Thanks for your in depth analysis of my issue. I cannot tell you that I will do anything you say but it's good to know someone out there has an opinion on this matter. Today her and I discussed move out options she is looking at houses tomorrow and plans to move sometime this summer to reduce impact on the kids. She says she still wants to date me after she moves? I don't understand this is this right? Should I date a woman that just moved out of my house? To me that's weird. ...although I still have love and strong feelings for her!

[GXY3]

We continue to struggle and I believe the end of our relationship is near. We go back and forth on the urgency of her move out. I cannot easily break it off, I have told her that I will not 'date' her once she leaves. We have started counseling but it probably will not be enough and judging by the replies received to the original post it is just delaying the inevitable.

[GXY3]

Just tonight I found that she searched picture guy's name on Facebook , trying to find him. I found it by looking at her phone, but I am brutally honest so I told her I looked at her phone and saw that she searched this and she went into defense mode, claiming privacy and that. We are so done. I am sleeping in the other room until her apartment is ready. Everyone on this site here was right, no one ever gets over getting cheated on...it is almost impossible and absolutely no one forgets it. I know I never will.

[Scorpio6913]

Just tonight I found that she searched picture guy's name on Facebook , trying to find him. I found it by looking at her phone, but I am brutally honest so I told her I looked at her phone and saw that she searched this and she went into defense mode, claiming privacy and that. We are so done. I am sleeping in the other room until her apartment is ready. Everyone on this site here was right, no one ever gets over getting cheated on...it is almost impossible and absolutely no one forgets it. I know I never will.

 

I'm so sorry you had to go through all this GX, I truely feel your pain!

I'm happy though that you are really seeing things for what they are now. Good luck man & remember you are not alone & not the only one who's given love to someone so undeserving!

[thatone]

We continue to struggle and I believe the end of our relationship is near. We go back and forth on the urgency of her move out. I cannot easily break it off, I have told her that I will not 'date' her once she leaves. We have started counseling but it probably will not be enough and judging by the replies received to the original post it is just delaying the inevitable.

 

why'd you get suckered into counseling? sounds like another ploy on her part to blame you for her being a terrible person. by letting her oprah'ify her issues now you're out the bill to the therapist.

 

be stronger in the future. tell such women what they are when you send them on their way, hearing someone tell them that they are in fact terrible people is doing them a favor, a helluva lot more of a favor than you paying for her therapy will do her.

[GXY3]

Well...it's been awhile since my last post. My gf moved out in July. She now lives one hour away. We have seen one another each weekend for the past two months .....and now two months later, she and I are still seeing one another and are "together". She continues to vow that all is on the up and up and there's no BS on her part. There has been no indicators of cheating, but ...other than our weekends together (every weekend since July) ....I have not had insight into her daily activities other than through calls and texts/emails. I have told her how hard it is for me to take her back and accept the fact that she cheated, albeit early in our relationship which is now 1.5+ years in. I have wrestled in my mind so many times, the idea of just getting out of this relationship, but when I go to do it, I just can't because for some reason I still love her even though she betrayed me. She has been pretty remorseful, and has indicated being sorry several times. Am I just a cuckold or just in for the punishment or will she treat me right in the future? Am I making a big mistake? We seem to fight a lot but when it's right it's really right...we love to spend time togther. Trust is still not where it should be. She still wants to marry me????

[Chi townD]

Well...it's been awhile since my last post. My gf moved out in July. She now lives one hour away. We have seen one another each weekend for the past two months .....and now two months later, she and I are still seeing one another and are "together". She continues to vow that all is on the up and up and there's no BS on her part. There has been no indicators of cheating, but ...other than our weekends together (every weekend since July) ....I have not had insight into her daily activities other than through calls and texts/emails. I have told her how hard it is for me to take her back and accept the fact that she cheated, albeit early in our relationship which is now 1.5+ years in. I have wrestled in my mind so many times, the idea of just getting out of this relationship, but when I go to do it, I just can't because for some reason I still love her even though she betrayed me. She has been pretty remorseful, and has indicated being sorry several times. Am I just a cuckold or just in for the punishment or will she treat me right in the future? Am I making a big mistake? We seem to fight a lot but when it's right it's really right...we love to spend time togther. Trust is still not where it should be. She still wants to marry me????

 

Dude, you have doubts and you don't have trust. Do not marry this girl! Look at your past relationship with her. You were constantly checking up on her, going into PI mode 24/7. Is that fair to you? Is that a stable relationship?

 

After everything you wrote, I can speculate that you NEVER got the entire story of what she did with this guy. Why make the comment on the penis size if she didn't try it out? She slept with this guy on several occasions don't fool yourself.

[madjac74]

no one ever gets over getting cheated on...it is almost impossible and absolutely no one forgets it. I know I never will.

 

You may not forget it but trust me you will get over it. You have to. Show her you are the better person by pulling your **** together and moving on. People who cheat get themselves into some serious **** so she will end up getting what she deserves. I'd buy you a drink if I could and tell you all my stories...you'd feel better I'm sure

[Space Ritual]

Well...it's been awhile since my last post. My gf moved out in July. She now lives one hour away. We have seen one another each weekend for the past two months .....and now two months later, she and I are still seeing one another and are "together". She continues to vow that all is on the up and up and there's no BS on her part. There has been no indicators of cheating, but ...other than our weekends together (every weekend since July) ....I have not had insight into her daily activities other than through calls and texts/emails. I have told her how hard it is for me to take her back and accept the fact that she cheated, albeit early in our relationship which is now 1.5+ years in. I have wrestled in my mind so many times, the idea of just getting out of this relationship, but when I go to do it, I just can't because for some reason I still love her even though she betrayed me. She has been pretty remorseful, and has indicated being sorry several times. Am I just a cuckold or just in for the punishment or will she treat me right in the future? Am I making a big mistake? We seem to fight a lot but when it's right it's really right...we love to spend time togther. Trust is still not where it should be. She still wants to marry me????

 

 

You are NOT in a relationship....you are being manipulated and used. And obviously you are either comfortable with being a doormat or you have been so down trodden by this trollop you figure you can't do any better.

 

How the hell can you tell remorse when you only see her on weekends? Please get tested for STD's and get away from her. She sees you as the pansy who will take care of her while she gets boned by others and does what she pleases and you will always take her back...she sees you only as a sucker...and you are.

[rafallus]

What previous people said.

 

She moved out and only sees you on weekends - in other words you got degraded from serious relationship to casual thing.

 

And you agree for it and hope for her to marry you? Wow.

[Professor X]

You're a sad example for a man. On the positive side, you're a great example of a doormat.

 

And of course she wanna marry you, that way she gets 50% of your things and I doubt you're smart enough to make a prenuptial agreement.

 

Now go, give her some money while she's f*cking picture boy, go on, good dog!

[GXY3]

I appreciate all the advice be it brutal or less so, I appreciate all of it.

And I also realize that I may sound like a doormat or a pushover or a pussy if I continue to try to make this work with her. I understand that right now, at this point in life, I am not choosing to dump her, mainly because I still love her. She is on my mind all the time...I feel great when I see her and she acts like she feels the same. But apart, it sucks. We here we are ..right or wrong continuing this ..."relationship". I struggle with the ideas of forgiveness and rising above and those of just saying "f" it there is someone else out there. Another train waiting to pull into the station. I really believe that but when it comes right down to actually acting on it I just don't. I agree that I should not have to follow her around like some private investigator or monitor her phone calls or any of that stuff. But that's where we are...I still cannot trust her right now.

 

So... what is it??? Can you have true love without trust? Because I am there now.

[Professor X]

 

So... what is it??? Can you have true love without trust? Because I am there now.

 

Why do you care with those questions? Or with the answers? Not like it will give you a peace of mind nor will things change for you.

 

Accept things the way they are: You will spend the rest of your life not trusting the person you love. Good luck.

[Osiris1234]

I chose to try to forgive and I decided that we should stay together.

 

Your a doormat and your one naive fool. Your a disgrace to men everywhere. Why is it when guys find out their wife/girlfriends cheated on them they never have the balls to take charge when the ball is in their court, it seems like this all the time.

 

Ill tell ya why. Its the media and blah blah, women have become empowered and men have had no reason to change, so its be a bitch or dont get laid.

 

Id rather not get laid then be someone elses bitch anyday, also she is forgetting one thing, if she won't put out then i can easily find it somewhere else.