Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I'm not saying that affairs are wrong. correction: meant to say - I'm not saying that affairs aren't wrong.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 The bolded- Honestly, this question should be asked to the MM/MW. If we could only... you think so? but they're just going for the ride - they're just happy to get the love This is where arguments begin and threads go down the pipe, because most people will try to one up the other. Everyone wants to be right or I should say be the real "love". That's actually what concerns me about my own thread, because I just want to understand it, and I fear it will end up being a fighting match - its so hard because so many people have been through so much crap (on both sides of the fence). Thanks Mimo
2sure Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I know this has been said before, because Ive said it. But... It has been discussed and agreed upon many times here especially by OW that a problem in the marriage must have existed already or an affair wouldnt have happened. And although I agree that is often the case, an affair can happen even in a seemingly happy marriage when the WS has a personal issue unrelated to the BS or the marriage. When there is an existing problem whether it be in the marriage or within the WS alone - an affair can occur, and OW is often heard, and justifiably so, to say that if he wasnt cheating with her he would still be cheating. Thats why I dont understand why so many BS focus on the OW. She could be anyone. However, many BS quickly get over the OW herself, and move onto the real issue at hand - whatever the problem really is in the marriage or her spouse. It isnt humiliating for a BS to acknowledge the truth, to attempt to correct a problem in the marriage , to try to forgive and help a remorseful WS, and to realize that decisions have to made...and that really, usually, those decisions ultimately have nothing to do with OW.
East7 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Yes, but had he known about the A and THEN he continued to stay in the M knowing all the while she was sneaking around behind his back, that would be a completely different situation IMO. People can screw up, show remorse, and make amends and take steps to repair the damage. Sometimes the M can survive, sometimes not. But anyone who knowingly and begrudgingly shares their love interest for a lengthy period of time is in a completely different ball park as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I should have developed further this point : She ended the A and I agreed. I went NC and didn't try to resume anything. A month later she broke NC and told me she confessed (without giving details - i didn't ask) and her H is trying to repair their relationship and she had told him she "would try"... I came to 2 conclusions : 1 - She hadn't told it all to her H. I don't think she confessed about the length of the A and the PA part. I think she made it look like an emotional fling. 2 - She wasn't really remorseful and committed to make it work as she was telling me (her ex lover) about conversations with her H, while (I'm sure, cuz I had some feedback) that she was trying so hard with him to keep him...Talk about "double game"..
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Maybe I should have developed further this point : She ended the A and I agreed. I went NC and didn't try to resume anything. A month later she broke NC and told me she confessed (without giving details - i didn't ask) and her H is trying to repair their relationship and she had told him she "would try"... I came to 2 conclusions : 1 - She hadn't told it all to her H. I don't think she confessed about the length of the A and the PA part. I think she made it look like an emotional fling. 2 - She wasn't really remorseful and committed to make it work as she was telling me (her ex lover) about conversations with her H, while (I'm sure, cuz I had some feedback) that she was trying so hard with him to keep him...Talk about "double game".. And there you have it. She made it seem less than what it was (keeping the BS further in the dark) and I'm sure didn't divulge that she broke NC either. You can't fault a BS for not reacting to things he's unaware of. BTW, East, I'm sorry that happened to you.
sally4sara Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Thanks for your reply sally I do understand that kids can certainly complicate the situation. I don't have kids, but I can imagine how any parent would want to do right by their kids and deciding on breaking up a family vs. trying to work things out would be a greatly difficult call to make because of the children. I think there is love involved in the final solution of taking a WS back and I have heard it from xBSs. I don't fault them or judge them for that at all. We feel what we feel... But its the same reason the OW/OM keeps taking the calls of the WS, its the same reason that they stay in the cycle. so why is one's love more valued that the other's? - that's my question. Because the BS's choice to remain in the marriage is not just about their own love and how they will feel if the person they love is gone; preserving their own situation over ending it and moving on. That is the lot of the OW. The OW is the only one who will experience a change and loss by ending an affair with someone who is married to another. They won't even experience a change of address or a loss of money due to legal fees. The lot of the BS is that their choice is often a struggle between being deciding what is selfish and selfless with both being hard to discern. They want to keep the love they thought they shared with their WS and this can be an act of selfishness? (I'm keeping whats mine) as well as an act of selflessness? (I owe it to them to make right whatever caused them to stray), but they also love the kids enough to consider how nursing their selfish? pride or seeking revenge (kick the jerk out without reflection, I'll run them through the wringer over this betrayal; heart broken kids be damned!) will affect other people who also love the WS and who the BS loves too. It can goad them the an act of selflessness? (I love my kids too much to attend my pride and revenge urges by ending this with out trying).
xxoo Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I think there is love involved in the final solution of taking a WS back and I have heard it from xBSs. I don't fault them or judge them for that at all. We feel what we feel... But its the same reason the OW/OM keeps taking the calls of the WS, its the same reason that they stay in the cycle. so why is one's love more valued that the other's? - that's my question. I haven't been a BS, but I have been a wife. If my H had an affair at some time in the future, I would likely feel more rage than love! But I would have decades of memories of being his "one and only" love--and I can imagine needing to know if we could get back to that place. If we could not, then I would want out, but it would take some time to know for sure. The OW hopes for that kind of relationship with the mm, but hasn't actually had it. That makes a difference in my mind. What is more reasonable--hoping to get back to a place that you once were, or hoping to get someplace you've never managed to get to before?
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 xxoo, I was trying to figure out how to put that into words. VERY good post!
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Thanks again Sally, I see that you put effort into your response and I appreciate it. Because the BS's choice to remain in the marriage is not just about their own love and how they will feel if the person they love is gone; preserving their own situation over ending it and moving on. That is the lot of the OW. The OW is the only one who will experience a change and loss by ending an affair with someone who is married to another. They won't even experience a change of address or a loss of money due to legal fees. but say that there are no kids, so does it really come down to "I love him, aaaaand, moving is such a bitch, so I'll just stay in this rut" The moving and the finances aren't the best reasons to stay with a serial cheater. It would be a tough adjustment to get out, but it can be done. The lot of the BS is that their choice is often a struggle between being deciding what is selfish and selfless with both being hard to discern. They want to keep the love they thought they shared with their WS and this can be an act of selfishness? (I'm keeping whats mine) as well as an act of selflessness? (I owe it to them to make right whatever caused them to stray), but they also love the kids enough to consider how nursing their selfish? pride or seeking revenge (kick the jerk out without reflection, I'll run them through the wringer over this betrayal; heart broken kids be damned!) will affect other people who also love the WS and who the BS loves too. It can goad them the an act of selflessness? (I love my kids too much to attend my pride and revenge urges by ending this with out trying). I can totally see what you're saying about the selfishness and selflessness and I really appreciate the thought you put into this. The only issue I would have with staying for the kids in the cases of serial cheating is 'is it really good for the kids?' I honestly don't know, who am I to say - I don't have kids, but I knew what it was like to grow up in a tense house and I would imagine if mommy is constantly fighting with dad because he's staying out a lot of the nights and his latest A has been found out and all that - can't really be the healthiest of environments. But that's not always the case. I do see what you're saying, but in the cases of serial cheating, I honestly don't know...
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Thank you xxoo, that's some insight I never really considered. I haven't been a BS, but I have been a wife. If my H had an affair at some time in the future, I would likely feel more rage than love! But I would have decades of memories of being his "one and only" love--and I can imagine needing to know if we could get back to that place. If we could not, then I would want out, but it would take some time to know for sure. The OW hopes for that kind of relationship with the mm, but hasn't actually had it. That makes a difference in my mind. What is more reasonable--hoping to get back to a place that you once were, or hoping to get someplace you've never managed to get to before? I see what you're saying, but sometimes things are lost for good - maybe that's what the OW thinks is happening with the BS and WS. When I was the OW I never actually gave that much thought, I never felt like his "one and only" and I knew that she wasn't (if we judge it by the fact that he's been cheating on her throughout their entire R). But I was sure that sharing children together, gave them a bond that I'll never have with him - that I acknowledged. But all I knew was that when we were in our "bubble" it felt like we loved each other and we meant for each other () I roll my eyes at that now, because its such a cliche and at the time I didn't even realize it. Thanks for that insight.
Silly_Girl Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Thank you! That's exactly my point though - its silly to use that reason to justify an action on one side and condemn the other side for using it. it doesn't matter if its said by a BS that's taking back a WS or by an OM/OW that's staying in a relationship that's not giving them all they need. I'm not saying that affairs are wrong. They are, but the idea that its pathetic when one settles for less "because of love" but its not when the other does it is just a silly double standard. I don't see a difference in using the same motive. You're right. It DOESN'T matter. I think there was a thread very much like this a few months back. I agreed with your sentiments that time around too. I think the ol' 'said with love' gets over-used too. OW are bashed because kindly caring people don't like them being used by scum MMs, and on another board BSs are being bashed for taking the WS back.
N.A. Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Why is it ok to say one is lacking self confidence and self worth (the OW) while the BS isn't - when they are both essentially putting up with the same crap from the same douchebag? To answer your initial question: I am a BS, I don't feel as if I lack any self confidence, self worth, morals, values, etc. However given my situation, as every affair is different, I can honestly say that the OW that my lovely husband cheated on me with lacked character, period. From what I know of her, how can a woman only go after men that she knows are unavailable and NOT lack self confidence, self worth, core character values, etc. Keep in mind that NONE of what I know about her is from the mouth of my husband. Everything that I found out about her was of my own doing. As there are many different types of affairs, our situation was different because I am not in complete denial that in order for an affair to happen in our case, there were certain key things lacking in our marriage. One of them was communication. There was however NO lack of stubborness on either one of our parts either. In our marriage things started to change over time and before we knew it we were both so hardened and bitter towards each other that neither one of us were willing to do that ONE thing, the easiest thing to do....COMMUNICATE! We both worked extensive hours, both had interests outside of work and basically lost touch with one another over a certain period of time. The reason why we stayed together is very simple. We both acknowledged that we slacked when it came to paying attention to one another. Where I became withdrawn from him, basically ignoring him, he had an affair which further caused him to withdraw from me. With that being said, no love was lost. I know this can be confusing for someone outside of our relationship, but it wasn't. He didn't love her, didn't even care for her really. At first I was furious with what he did to our marriage, what he did to us, what he could have potentially done to our entire life. He risked our marriage, our children and his job, for what? Someone he didn't even care for because of attention. I get that....I really do. So, with that said.....it took us weeks to even really begin talking about our marriage even after the affair came to light. I put the ball in his court. Instead of him waiting to see what I would do.....I gave him the ball as I really didn't care anymore. I gave him a chance with him fully understanding that there was nothing that was stopping me from leaving so if he wanted this to work, he needed to start the process not me. I could have left as easily as I could have stayed, as angry as I was. I asked a million questions, I kicked him out, I screamed to the top of my lungs, I treated him like a complete piece of crap....you know what he did, he took it. He took every bit of what I said to him and even on the days where I was pretty sure that I had had my fill and packed my bags you what he said......if you leave now, instead of working on things, just know that no part of me is ever going to be with her....EVER! It has been 3 months since D-Day and there is not a day goes by that he doesn't act or seem extremely grateful that I didn't walk out of his life or our marriage. When I have "bad days", which means I am having a hard time coping still with what he did given the knowledge that I have of the affair, he consoles me, comforts me and attempts to reassure me in every way he can imagine that he loves me and will never cheat on me again. This is not because I lack self confidence nor self worth, it all comes down to TRUST!
2sure Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I love that post. Very accurate. And a very good glimpse of what goes on behind the doors of a marriage , both before and after infidelity.
Mimolicious Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 you think so? but they're just going for the ride - they're just happy to get the love That's actually what concerns me about my own thread, because I just want to understand it, and I fear it will end up being a fighting match - its so hard because so many people have been through so much crap (on both sides of the fence). Thanks Mimo I mean, if we are dealing with one (mm/mw) that is just really caught up, then we may be getting an honest answer. I agree with you though, most are just riding and getting, in reality they give little. I mean, is life about affection, love making and butterflies? Seems like many people follow a "feeling" and fail to realize that it takes more than that.
phillyfan Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I am really hoping that this doesn't end up being a thread that's all about insults and ends up getting locked. But I do have a question that may to hit a nerve. In a thread by herenow there's talk about things she's sick of hearing with regards to As HN at one point mentions how she's sick of hearing the claim that the MP is staying with the wife for almost any reason under the sun except the possibility that he might love her… The comment that I'm here to discuss was made by another poster in response to that remark and here is the comment. "But don't you know that BWs only take them back because they have no self-confidence or self-worth? " And here's my question: Because I am not one to generalize I do believe that there are many types of people out there - some BS maybe quick to react, definitely put their pride first, wont put up with certain crap Some are willing to hear things out, weight their options, see what's worth fighting for and deciding from there, and put in the work Some are needy and may worry about being on their own There are many factors like love, kids, finances, etc… But we see many generalizations here about OW lacking self confidence for putting up with crumbs, there was a comment on that very thread about people who need validation - so what's the difference between an OW who keeps putting up with less than she'd like because she loves the MM And a BS that keeps taking that same cheater back because she loves him Why is it ok to say one is lacking self confidence and self worth (the OW) while the BS isn't - when they are both essentially putting up with the same crap from the same douchebag? This is an honest question - I'm trying to see how everyone feels Is it simply the 'she had him first' mentality Or the 'they are legally married' - is it a matter of a piece or paper that puts one on a higher ground than the other. So yeah, I'm mainly asking about serial cheaters that have had multiple Ddays - the BS takes them back and the OW does too I honestly don't see much difference. If in the end they both rationalize it with "I love him" - what's the difference? The mistress knows shes been havin sex with a dude thats also been havin sex with anotha woman, she knows hes been lyin, she knows how long its been goin on......the wife dont know nothin, and I bet these dudes pretend it was '1 nite when i was drunk', or pretends the mistress is some crazy boitch who is stalkin him, or somethin. So the wife thinks its worth stayin-plus he is probly beggin her and doin anythin possible to convince her to stay wit him. The mistress on the otha hand alredy knows how much he lies n how much crap he talks an doesnt get all the above, all she gets is silence and no returned phone calls for about 3 weeks then he starts sniffin round like a dog again and then the affair starts ova. Yea i am generalizin but if its a self esteem thing then the wife is likely 2 have more.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Why is it ok to say one is lacking self confidence and self worth (the OW) while the BS isn't - when they are both essentially putting up with the same crap from the same douchebag? To answer your initial question: I am a BS, I don't feel as if I lack any self confidence, self worth, morals, values, etc. However given my situation, as every affair is different, I can honestly say that the OW that my lovely husband cheated on me with lacked character, period. From what I know of her, how can a woman only go after men that she knows are unavailable and NOT lack self confidence, self worth, core character values, etc. Keep in mind that NONE of what I know about her is from the mouth of my husband. Everything that I found out about her was of my own doing. As there are many different types of affairs, our situation was different because I am not in complete denial that in order for an affair to happen in our case, there were certain key things lacking in our marriage. One of them was communication. There was however NO lack of stubborness on either one of our parts either. In our marriage things started to change over time and before we knew it we were both so hardened and bitter towards each other that neither one of us were willing to do that ONE thing, the easiest thing to do....COMMUNICATE! We both worked extensive hours, both had interests outside of work and basically lost touch with one another over a certain period of time. The reason why we stayed together is very simple. We both acknowledged that we slacked when it came to paying attention to one another. Where I became withdrawn from him, basically ignoring him, he had an affair which further caused him to withdraw from me. With that being said, no love was lost. I know this can be confusing for someone outside of our relationship, but it wasn't. He didn't love her, didn't even care for her really. At first I was furious with what he did to our marriage, what he did to us, what he could have potentially done to our entire life. He risked our marriage, our children and his job, for what? Someone he didn't even care for because of attention. I get that....I really do. So, with that said.....it took us weeks to even really begin talking about our marriage even after the affair came to light. I put the ball in his court. Instead of him waiting to see what I would do.....I gave him the ball as I really didn't care anymore. I gave him a chance with him fully understanding that there was nothing that was stopping me from leaving so if he wanted this to work, he needed to start the process not me. I could have left as easily as I could have stayed, as angry as I was. I asked a million questions, I kicked him out, I screamed to the top of my lungs, I treated him like a complete piece of crap....you know what he did, he took it. He took every bit of what I said to him and even on the days where I was pretty sure that I had had my fill and packed my bags you what he said......if you leave now, instead of working on things, just know that no part of me is ever going to be with her....EVER! It has been 3 months since D-Day and there is not a day goes by that he doesn't act or seem extremely grateful that I didn't walk out of his life or our marriage. When I have "bad days", which means I am having a hard time coping still with what he did given the knowledge that I have of the affair, he consoles me, comforts me and attempts to reassure me in every way he can imagine that he loves me and will never cheat on me again. This is not because I lack self confidence nor self worth, it all comes down to TRUST! Thank you very much N.A. for that very open and honest post. I wish you the best in your M
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 The mistress knows shes been havin sex with a dude thats also been havin sex with anotha woman, she knows hes been lyin, she knows how long its been goin on......the wife dont know nothin, and I bet these dudes pretend it was '1 nite when i was drunk', or pretends the mistress is some crazy boitch who is stalkin him, or somethin. So the wife thinks its worth stayin-plus he is probly beggin her and doin anythin possible to convince her to stay wit him. The mistress on the otha hand alredy knows how much he lies n how much crap he talks an doesnt get all the above, all she gets is silence and no returned phone calls for about 3 weeks then he starts sniffin round like a dog again and then the affair starts ova. Yea i am generalizin but if its a self esteem thing then the wife is likely 2 have more. you're talking about what seems to be a one time cheat (as far the BS is concerned) I'm talking about the times when there are multiple Ddays and the BS keeps taking him back.
2sure Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 The mistress on the otha hand alredy knows how much he lies n how much crap he talks an doesnt get all the above, all she gets is silence and no returned phone calls for about 3 weeks then he starts sniffin round like a dog again and then the affair starts ova. Yea i am generalizin but if its a self esteem thing then the wife is likely 2 have more. Ive spent 3 years , 6000 posts ,two million words, and a piece of my life on spell check and edit to say what you just did in 3 seconds. Yep, I agree.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 [/b] Ive spent 3 years , 6000 posts ,two million words, and a piece of my life on spell check and edit to say what you just did in 3 seconds. Yep, I agree. But how can the BS plead ignorance about their spouses cheating if there are multiple Ddays? How are they less informed than the AP? (considering serial cheating)
phillyfan Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 [/b] Ive spent 3 years , 6000 posts ,two million words, and a piece of my life on spell check and edit to say what you just did in 3 seconds. Yep, I agree. Thanks dude
Snowflower Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I do think it's kind of crazy to compare the actions/reactions of the one person who would have never chosen the situation to the two that did. I don't really compare the two scenarios because of the above statement. True, but once that person knows of the situation, their actions after that are their own. But the OW/MM still had/have? the advantage up until and sometimes even after d-day. Both the OW and the MM made a unilateral decision to enter into a relationship and affect the life of the BS without the BS's consent or knowledge (I'm speaking in most cases). Yes, after d-day the BS has a choice but then they are making choices out of duress or because those are the options at that point. Very different, IMO. One chooses that path, the other has it forced upon them. Again, you (general you) can't compare the two because 2 of the 3 people in the triangle made the choice while the other person is often in the dark. Again, I agree that the BS didn't choose to have their spouse cheat on them, they didn't choose to find themselves in an A triangle, but once they know about it - what they do after that is their choice. Yes, but again...the BS is "behind the 8 ball" to some extent-even after d-day. It isn't like they knew about the affair from the moment it began...like the OW/MM do. Suddenly, a BS is faced with an impending divorce (or the threat of it) and all the garbage that goes along with that. Meanwhile, the MP/AP have been making plans for weeks/months/years about their future. All the while, the BS has no clue that something is that wrong that divorce is imminent. That is why I see a vast difference. Thanks for the interesting thread, tigercub.
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Very true, Snowflower. Even after a D day there is still often a LOT of lying to the BS going on; about the A itself (when it started, how in depth it is, etc.) and whether it is ongoing or not. An OW/OM knows all the details of the A itself (except for the fibs the MM/MW tells to keep the A going, of course ). The BS knows ONLY what he/she is told. VERY different circumstances, actually, often even after D day.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I don't really compare the two scenarios because of the above statement. But the OW/MM still had/have? the advantage up until and sometimes even after d-day. Both the OW and the MM made a unilateral decision to enter into a relationship and affect the life of the BS without the BS's consent or knowledge (I'm speaking in most cases). Yes, after d-day the BS has a choice but then they are making choices out of duress or because those are the options at that point. Very different, IMO. Again, you (general you) can't compare the two because 2 of the 3 people in the triangle made the choice while the other person is often in the dark. Yes, but again...the BS is "behind the 8 ball" to some extent-even after d-day. It isn't like they knew about the affair from the moment it began...like the OW/MM do. Suddenly, a BS is faced with an impending divorce (or the threat of it) and all the garbage that goes along with that. Meanwhile, the MP/AP have been making plans for weeks/months/years about their future. All the while, the BS has no clue that something is that wrong that divorce is imminent. That is why I see a vast difference. Thanks for the interesting thread, tigercub. I see what you're saying SnowFlower - that the MP and AP kind of got "a head start" with regards to what's going to happen and that the BS is more just fumbling in the semi darkness trying to figure out what to do - I get that, but that (in most cases) doesn't mean that they still can't get their bearings and do what they really need to do. In most cases the MP doesn't know if he's coming or going and its really the BS that calls the shots. I think from most experiences on here (my own included) MP's are cowards when it comes to affairs and they just want the decision to be made for them - so the BS still has a LOT of say on how things will go. I dunno, perhaps I am generalizing here. Glad you're enjoying the discussion
N.A. Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Thank you very much N.A. for that very open and honest post. I wish you the best in your M Thanks I am an open book..lol
2sure Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 But how can the BS plead ignorance about their spouses cheating if there are multiple Ddays? How are they less informed than the AP? (considering serial cheating) I dont know , I can relate my own experience. My husband cheated, ONS, I caught him. I have never seen a man more remorseful. I took him back. A year later... He text cheated.I caught him, shyte hit the fan. He insisted on complete transparency, IC, MC, the whole thing. To be honest, I thought it was just texting, just attention, and even felt like "Hey, dont worry honey we can get past this" but didnt say it. Year Later: He cheated, multiple OW, craigs list, secret identity, etc etc gag. I left. Understand that part of what I do for a living is research people, its easy for me to find things out. I caught him each time because ..Im not all that trusting of a person by nature I guess. I wanted it to be OK sure, but I didnt turn a blind eye, I was not ignorant. But what he said, the talent he had to convince me...I dont know what to tell you - it wasnt my fault I believed him.
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