TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I am really hoping that this doesn't end up being a thread that's all about insults and ends up getting locked. But I do have a question that may to hit a nerve. In a thread by herenow there's talk about things she's sick of hearing with regards to As HN at one point mentions how she's sick of hearing the claim that the MP is staying with the wife for almost any reason under the sun except the possibility that he might love her… The comment that I'm here to discuss was made by another poster in response to that remark and here is the comment. "But don't you know that BWs only take them back because they have no self-confidence or self-worth? " And here's my question: Because I am not one to generalize I do believe that there are many types of people out there - some BS maybe quick to react, definitely put their pride first, wont put up with certain crap Some are willing to hear things out, weight their options, see what's worth fighting for and deciding from there, and put in the work Some are needy and may worry about being on their own There are many factors like love, kids, finances, etc… But we see many generalizations here about OW lacking self confidence for putting up with crumbs, there was a comment on that very thread about people who need validation - so what's the difference between an OW who keeps putting up with less than she'd like because she loves the MM And a BS that keeps taking that same cheater back because she loves him Why is it ok to say one is lacking self confidence and self worth (the OW) while the BS isn't - when they are both essentially putting up with the same crap from the same douchebag? This is an honest question - I'm trying to see how everyone feels Is it simply the 'she had him first' mentality Or the 'they are legally married' - is it a matter of a piece or paper that puts one on a higher ground than the other. So yeah, I'm mainly asking about serial cheaters that have had multiple Ddays - the BS takes them back and the OW does too I honestly don't see much difference. If in the end they both rationalize it with "I love him" - what's the difference?
Ellin Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I honestly don't see much difference. If in the end they both rationalize it with "I love him" - what's the difference? I don't see much difference either. Sorry if that doesn't answer your question.
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 In a case where the BS actually KNOWS about the A, I see your point. However, in most cases, they do not. Therein lies the difference, at least for me.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 In a case where the BS actually KNOWS about the A, I see your point. However, in most cases, they do not. Therein lies the difference, at least for me. Oh yeah, if she doesn't know, she's not even getting a choice about it all.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I don't see much difference either. Sorry if that doesn't answer your question. no worries Ellin, I just wanna see how the majority feel about this one - you helped
silktricks Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 so what's the difference between an OW who keeps putting up with less than she'd like because she loves the MM And a BS that keeps taking that same cheater back because she loves him To be honest I don't see any difference as stated. However, IME (and also represented here on LS) most BS won't continually take the same cheater back, she'll kick him out.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 To be honest I don't see any difference as stated. However, IME (and also represented here on LS) most BS won't continually take the same cheater back, she'll kick him out. There are different cases, some people reach their "enough is enough" point but honestly some LS stories here do have the multiple Dday drama. Some RL stories do too.. That's the thing - I can't generalize because people do deal with things differently, but it does happen. Thanks for you thoughts on this Silk
reboot Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 To be honest I don't see any difference as stated. However, IME (and also represented here on LS) most BS won't continually take the same cheater back, she'll kick him out. Not to split hairs, but sometimes he kicks her out.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 What I've never understood Is how an OW can accuse the BS of being weak by staying but buys into all of the reasons MM can't leave. Some actually consider it noble on his part! Yet the OW (in most cases) signs up for the triangle with the knowledge that he is married, and lacks character and integrity. It seems to me that it's the one person who didn't choose the affair who is condemned for not sulking away with their tail between their legs so that someone else can step into the life they have worked for. I know that the range of emotion following betrayal causes an enormous conflict for BS. So the reasons for staying initially could vary from minute to minute. In the case of serial cheaters then I believe the reasons change to anything but love, eventually, at least. In the case of a SC, then you are dealing with some type of personality disorder. Which means that there is more damage than simply the betrayal. SC's don't change for OW, or OOW, or their kids or families. No one person will ever be enough to make them happy. The difference between the BS and OW I'd that the BS has invested her own time building a legitimate life (hers) has children and family involved, and obviously in the case of a SC is the only person who is truly grounded enough to manage the personality disorder so that it's affects are minimized to others in the family including the MM. Much like the reasons the spouse of an alcoholic takes on the roll of peace maker. I do think it's kind of crazy to compare the actions/reactions of the one person who would have never chosen the situation to the two that did.
Owl Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I agree with Donna's comment. Once the BS knows of the affair...they face a series of CHOICES. Do they try to reconcile, or go straight to D? If reconcile...what are their requirements from the WS to change in order for reconciliation to be possible? How long do they tolerate any waffling/backsliding/bullstuffing from the WS until they decide "enough"? From my perspective...the OW/OM face the same series of choices for the most part. The only real difference is the knowledge/awareness of the affair and choice sooner than most BS's. I wouldn't EXPECT a BS to stay or to accept less than what they need in a relationship. I wouldn't EXPECT an OW/OM to do any different...but...they face the same problems/risks that the BS does when they enforce boundaries...the risk that the MM/MW will end the relationship due to that pressure to meet those boundaries rather than step up and meet them. Exactly the same risk as well. Just my thoughts. Never accept anything less than what you need...doesn't matter WHO you are.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 What I've never understood Is how an OW can accuse the BS of being weak by staying but buys into all of the reasons MM can't leave. Some actually consider it noble on his part! Yet the OW (in most cases) signs up for the triangle with the knowledge that he is married, and lacks character and integrity. It seems to me that it's the one person who didn't choose the affair who is condemned for not sulking away with their tail between their legs so that someone else can step into the life they have worked for. I know that the range of emotion following betrayal causes an enormous conflict for BS. So the reasons for staying initially could vary from minute to minute. In the case of serial cheaters then I believe the reasons change to anything but love, eventually, at least. In the case of a SC, then you are dealing with some type of personality disorder. Which means that there is more damage than simply the betrayal. SC's don't change for OW, or OOW, or their kids or families. No one person will ever be enough to make them happy. Totally agree with that. The difference between the BS and OW I'd that the BS has invested her own time building a legitimate life (hers) has children and family involved, So it is the piece of paper? because what if there are no kids, what if the OW has a kid with the MM - kids do play a factor but aren't always there. so the legitimate part is the actual marriage? and obviously in the case of a SC is the only person who is truly grounded enough to manage the personality disorder so that it's affects are minimized to others in the family including the MM. Much like the reasons the spouse of an alcoholic takes on the roll of peace maker. Maybe, but honestly, that might not be the case, if he's not addressing the issues that make him a serial cheater, then what is she really managing? He's still a mess, she's just helping him look like he's an alright guy? don't mean any disrespect with my questions, just trying to understand. I do think it's kind of crazy to compare the actions/reactions of the one person who would have never chosen the situation to the two that did. True, but once that person knows of the situation, their actions after that are their own. Thanks
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I agree with Donna's comment. Once the BS knows of the affair...they face a series of CHOICES. Do they try to reconcile, or go straight to D? If reconcile...what are their requirements from the WS to change in order for reconciliation to be possible? How long do they tolerate any waffling/backsliding/bullstuffing from the WS until they decide "enough"? From my perspective...the OW/OM face the same series of choices for the most part. The only real difference is the knowledge/awareness of the affair and choice sooner than most BS's. I wouldn't EXPECT a BS to stay or to accept less than what they need in a relationship. I wouldn't EXPECT an OW/OM to do any different...but...they face the same problems/risks that the BS does when they enforce boundaries...the risk that the MM/MW will end the relationship due to that pressure to meet those boundaries rather than step up and meet them. Exactly the same risk as well. Just my thoughts. Never accept anything less than what you need...doesn't matter WHO you are. Wise as always! Thanks for the input OWL
bentnotbroken Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I for one don't believe all OW/OM are lacking in self confidence...I think some just don't give a flying fig about anyone or anything other than what they want. I also don't believe that all BS are overflowing with self confidence. Some think they will seek to exist unless they are married to someone, anyone. Even a lying steaming pile of dog dodo. There are varied reasons/excuses/explanations/for all involved. Some valid others a smoke screen for the real motive. Who knows since no of us has the ability to read minds and know the inner thoughts of another. All we can do is go on the patterns and recognize the exceptions when they are there.
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Even a lying steaming pile of dog dodo. Oh...my...gawd! Now THAT was funny!
whichwayisup Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Why is it ok to say one is lacking self confidence and self worth (the OW) while the BS isn't - when they are both essentially putting up with the same crap from the same douchebag? Actually it's quite simple. The BS is married to him and has an obligation. Depending on how one views their wedding vows, many BS's don't want to walk away without trying, without giving their WS a chance to work through things, rightfully so. Why should the BS just hand over her husband to the OW? An OW chooses to enter an affair with a MM, so right off the bat there's dishonesty and well..It's an affair! I don't care how so many OW say he's "honest or good" .. he is still betraying his wife and family unit by cheating on them, reguardless of what he tells OW (we sleep in separate rooms, we don't get along) that still doesn't change the ONE fact. He's married and it's an affair. An OW isn't obligated nor does she have vows to ride out the rollercoaster. She chooses to do so, over and over again. The BS IS obligated to, though some divorce immediately..It depends on the person, the marriage and their tolerance level to cheating. Also, some people are worth second chances, so throw in the kids, the life created together, it isn't easy just to up and divorce, even more so if the MM is the broken and the marriage is good (ask some BS's who felt they had pretty good marriages and were shocked that their H's cheated and were 'unhappy'..).. There is a time to let go and move on, but (sometimes both) don't know when to give up and throw in the towel. One chooses that path, the other has it forced upon them.
East7 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I don't see much difference either TC, sorry for that... Talking about my personal experience, the worst feelings I had during the A was "humiliation" or the "sharing the woman I loved with her husband". Eventhough he was her 'husband' the very person she was committed to, I couldn't stand the idea that "my only and one love" was sleeping next to another man every night. That was really the hardest part along with the hoping and waiting that things would change. Like all the people involved with married persons I rationalized it with "Because i REALLY love her no matter what". After we decided to end the A, she told me she confessed and her H wanted to work things out with her. So he too had to put up with the humiliation of knowing his wife had a relationship with another man and he decided to repair his M anyway. I think, in the end, only the result counts. As you say so often: no one stays where he doesn't want to be..Those who are REALLY miserable in the M do leave.
reboot Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 no one stays where he doesn't want to be..Those who are REALLY miserable in the M do leave. I've said this before myself, and this is a truth that many refuse to accept.
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 After we decided to end the A, she told me she confessed and her H wanted to work things out with her. So he too had to put up with the humiliation of knowing his wife had a relationship with another man and he decided to repair his M anyway. Yes, but had he known about the A and THEN he continued to stay in the M knowing all the while she was sneaking around behind his back, that would be a completely different situation IMO. People can screw up, show remorse, and make amends and take steps to repair the damage. Sometimes the M can survive, sometimes not. But anyone who knowingly and begrudgingly shares their love interest for a lengthy period of time is in a completely different ball park as far as I'm concerned.
sally4sara Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I'm not sure why either party would want a WS/MM except for: A spouse would have to make a legal decision and if children are involved, consider how their choice of handling the situation will change things for the kid(s). Are the kids better off if the BS ends the marriage swiftly or are they better off if the BS tries to work this out with the WS? It can also be about return on investment. Is the life built better or worse by ending it? Is it the right time to end it or will waiting a bit/foregoing it entirely a better return on that life built? For an OW? If they don't like it they can just stop answering the call, opening the door, or landing in bed and life will go on much as it did before the affair began. Of course the longer the timeline, the level of entanglement, the event of out of wedlock children can level this playing field out to near equal minus seeking a legal end to a marital union VS seeking an end to a union that is not legally bound.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Thanks for your input WWIU. Actually it's quite simple. The BS is married to him and has an obligation. Depending on how one views their wedding vows, many BS's don't want to walk away without trying, without giving their WS a chance to work through things, rightfully so. Why should the BS just hand over her husband to the OW? An OW chooses to enter an affair with a MM, so right off the bat there's dishonesty and well..It's an affair! I don't care how so many OW say he's "honest or good" .. he is still betraying his wife and family unit by cheating on them, reguardless of what he tells OW (we sleep in separate rooms, we don't get along) that still doesn't change the ONE fact. He's married and it's an affair. An OW isn't obligated nor does she have vows to ride out the rollercoaster. She chooses to do so, over and over again. But depending on the length of the affair and what types of things went on, some are really invested in it as well? But so would a BS that repeatedly takes back a cheating spouse - do they not choose to do it over and over again (I'm talking about the times where they know that there are affairs going on). The BS IS obligated to,though some divorce immediately.. But would you say the same for a spouse in a physically abusive relationship? I'm guessing not. But isn't cheating on someone repeatedly emotional abuse? I would think that it would destroy a person's self esteem to see that their spouse is repeatedly choosing to go out and betray them and hurt them. I see that as abusive. Therefore no obligation to keep staying - but that's just me. It depends on the person, the marriage and their tolerance level to cheating. Also, some people are worth second chances, so throw in the kids, the life created together, it isn't easy just to up and divorce, even more so if the MM is the broken and the marriage is good (ask some BS's who felt they had pretty good marriages and were shocked that their H's cheated and were 'unhappy'..).. There is a time to let go and move on, but (sometimes both) don't know when to give up and throw in the towel. I think that's totally true. One chooses that path, the other has it forced upon them. Again, I agree that the BS didn't choose to have their spouse cheat on them, they didn't choose to find themselves in an A triangle, but once they know about it - what they do after that is their choice. Thank you so much for your response, I appreciate reading your view on this
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I don't see much difference either TC, sorry for that... Talking about my personal experience, the worst feelings I had during the A was "humiliation" or the "sharing the woman I loved with her husband". Eventhough he was her 'husband' the very person she was committed to, I couldn't stand the idea that "my only and one love" was sleeping next to another man every night. That was really the hardest part along with the hoping and waiting that things would change. Like all the people involved with married persons I rationalized it with "Because i REALLY love her no matter what". After we decided to end the A, she told me she confessed and her H wanted to work things out with her. So he too had to put up with the humiliation of knowing his wife had a relationship with another man and he decided to repair his M anyway. I think, in the end, only the result counts. As you say so often: no one stays where he doesn't want to be..Those who are REALLY miserable in the M do leave. Thanks East. You've mentioned before that you felt humiliated by the whole experience, and I've heard it from other posters as well. I dunno why, I never felt humiliated - maybe because I didn't have "sex" with him, I dunno, maybe because I didn't let myself think about him and her together, I really don't know. I know that I felt a lot of guilt but I don't think I ever felt humiliated by the experience - it just wasn't good though. I'm glad we're both out of that hell and that we've learned so much because of it
Mimolicious Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I don't see much difference either TC, sorry for that... Talking about my personal experience, the worst feelings I had during the A was "humiliation" or the "sharing the woman I loved with her husband". Eventhough he was her 'husband' the very person she was committed to, I couldn't stand the idea that "my only and one love" was sleeping next to another man every night. That was really the hardest part along with the hoping and waiting that things would change. Like all the people involved with married persons I rationalized it with "Because i REALLY love her no matter what". After we decided to end the A, she told me she confessed and her H wanted to work things out with her. So he too had to put up with the humiliation of knowing his wife had a relationship with another man and he decided to repair his M anyway. I think, in the end, only the result counts. As you say so often: no one stays where he doesn't want to be..Those who are REALLY miserable in the M do leave. The bolded- A lot of people here bash on a BS that tries to work on their M for the same reason. Hilarious. People will always justify their actions, regardless. IMHO-I guess I have to go with once you know what your S is up to, there is no difference. One just has more dealing with than the other. Last I checked, unless you have a second family with your MM, I don't think the AP is the one that has to worry about what a D process will bring. There is no kids to explain and deal with, no mortgage, no business, no facing the family, no creditors, etc... I mean, yes if your MM gets to bounce with you, then there are few things that you will have to deal with but that is really your (general) choice. You can have always turned away and keep it moving. Apparently some fall so hard that they are willing to go against it all and through whatever. BUT that's all out of "love". If a BS did it, it's out of "neediness", "bitterness", and all the other pathetic things that they are called. Let's face it, this is the never ending battle and the 2 camps will always jump down each other's throats. All for the sake of "love". At the end, who's to judge us?!
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I'm not sure why either party would want a WS/MM except for: A spouse would have to make a legal decision and if children are involved, consider how their choice of handling the situation will change things for the kid(s). Are the kids better off if the BS ends the marriage swiftly or are they better off if the BS tries to work this out with the WS? It can also be about return on investment. Is the life built better or worse by ending it? Is it the right time to end it or will waiting a bit/foregoing it entirely a better return on that life built? For an OW? If they don't like it they can just stop answering the call, opening the door, or landing in bed and life will go on much as it did before the affair began. Of course the longer the timeline, the level of entanglement, the event of out of wedlock children can level this playing field out to near equal minus seeking a legal end to a marital union VS seeking an end to a union that is not legally bound. Thanks for your reply sally I do understand that kids can certainly complicate the situation. I don't have kids, but I can imagine how any parent would want to do right by their kids and deciding on breaking up a family vs. trying to work things out would be a greatly difficult call to make because of the children. I think there is love involved in the final solution of taking a WS back and I have heard it from xBSs. I don't fault them or judge them for that at all. We feel what we feel... But its the same reason the OW/OM keeps taking the calls of the WS, its the same reason that they stay in the cycle. so why is one's love more valued that the other's? - that's my question.
Author TigerCub Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 The bolded- A lot of people here bash on a BS that tries to work on their M for the same reason. Hilarious. People will always justify their actions, regardless. IMHO-I guess I have to go with once you know what your S is up to, there is no difference. One just has more dealing with than the other. Last I checked, unless you have a second family with your MM, I don't think the AP is the one that has to worry about what a D process will bring. There is no kids to explain and deal with, no mortgage, no business, no facing the family, no creditors, etc... I mean, yes if your MM gets to bounce with you, then there are few things that you will have to deal with but that is really your (general) choice. You can have always turned away and keep it moving. Apparently some fall so hard that they are willing to go against it all and through whatever. BUT that's all out of "love". If a BS did it, it's out of "neediness", "bitterness", and all the other pathetic things that they are called. Let's face it, this is the never ending battle and the 2 camps will always jump down each other's throats. All for the sake of "love". At the end, who's to judge us?! Thank you! That's exactly my point though - its silly to use that reason to justify an action on one side and condemn the other side for using it. it doesn't matter if its said by a BS that's taking back a WS or by an OM/OW that's staying in a relationship that's not giving them all they need. I'm not saying that affairs are wrong. They are, but the idea that its pathetic when one settles for less "because of love" but its not when the other does it is just a silly double standard. I don't see a difference in using the same motive.
Mimolicious Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Thanks for your reply sally I do understand that kids can certainly complicate the situation. I don't have kids, but I can imagine how any parent would want to do right by their kids and deciding on breaking up a family vs. trying to work things out would be a greatly difficult call to make because of the children. I think there is love involved in the final solution of taking a WS back and I have heard it from xBSs. I don't fault them or judge them for that at all. We feel what we feel... But its the same reason the OW/OM keeps taking the calls of the WS, its the same reason that they stay in the cycle. so why is one's love more valued that the other's? - that's my question.[/QUOTE] The bolded- Honestly, this question should be asked to the MM/MW. If we could only... This is where arguments begin and threads go down the pipe, because most people will try to one up the other. Everyone wants to be right or I should say be the real "love".
Recommended Posts