silktricks Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Since I didn't want to threadjack, I thought I'd start one. First my disclaimer, as most of you know I'm primarily a fBS... It's often been said that a MM must not love his wife because if he did he wouldn't have an affair. I disagree with this statement, not only because of my own life, but more pointedly because of my father-in-law. He cheated on his wife - a lot. But it was evident to observers right up to the day he died that he truly loved his wife. So, in the case of the affairs where the OW is immediately dropped on D-Day, and the MM can't wait to start telling his wife how "she never meant a thing" I really don't think it's a lack of love for his spouse that caused the affair, nor the fear of lack of money that keeps in him his marriage. I think the affair is primarily due to boredom, and love that keeps him in the marriage. Think about it. What is the most exciting, most heart-pounding, most intense thing that ever happens to most of us? Falling in love. In our highly technical and highly boring society, there just isn't that much that can really get the blood boiling for most people - just love, or lust, or hot sex. I'm not saying that married sex can't be hot cuz it is. But it's not (usually) got all of the other stuff (the "falling" in love, the newness, the exploration, etc) that is there with someone new - not to mention the stark fear of getting caught if you're cheating. And undoubtedly for some the manipulation of another person So, though it's understandable for someone to say "he must not love her if he cheated with me", I think that is disingenuous, as most people are where they truly want to be. If they truly want to be with the OW, they'll get out of the marriage and be with her. If on D-Day they truly want to stay with their wife, they will.
Gentlegirl Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I can only tell you what the xMM said to me during the A re loving his wife. He said his feeling for her were like the love he had felt for his own mother and had been for many years. I don't imagine he was experiencing Oedipus syndome . It was just his way of saying that they had been married 49 years and they were bored with each other. Gentlegirl
Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I agree Silk. People are flawed, and have lapses. The actions and circumstances before and after the affair are as telling, if not more so, than the actions during.
thomasb Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Since I didn't want to threadjack, I thought I'd start one. First my disclaimer, as most of you know I'm primarily a fBS... It's often been said that a MM must not love his wife because if he did he wouldn't have an affair. I disagree with this statement, not only because of my own life, but more pointedly because of my father-in-law. He cheated on his wife - a lot. But it was evident to observers right up to the day he died that he truly loved his wife. So, in the case of the affairs where the OW is immediately dropped on D-Day, and the MM can't wait to start telling his wife how "she never meant a thing" I really don't think it's a lack of love for his spouse that caused the affair, nor the fear of lack of money that keeps in him his marriage. I think the affair is primarily due to boredom, and love that keeps him in the marriage. Think about it. What is the most exciting, most heart-pounding, most intense thing that ever happens to most of us? Falling in love. In our highly technical and highly boring society, there just isn't that much that can really get the blood boiling for most people - just love, or lust, or hot sex. I'm not saying that married sex can't be hot cuz it is. But it's not (usually) got all of the other stuff (the "falling" in love, the newness, the exploration, etc) that is there with someone new - not to mention the stark fear of getting caught if you're cheating. And undoubtedly for some the manipulation of another person So, though it's understandable for someone to say "he must not love her if he cheated with me", I think that is disingenuous, as most people are where they truly want to be. If they truly want to be with the OW, they'll get out of the marriage and be with her. If on D-Day they truly want to stay with their wife, they will. ST, I loved my wife completly and absolutly, before, during and especially after my affair. After was because of the way she handled herself with grace, dignity and true class. But after I dropped Ow and told my wife the truth about who and what I'd become, a cheating *******, the OW was floored thinking I must have loved her to cheat. She had some delusional thought that since I did she must be better than my dear wife. Patently untrue. I made a gross mistake. And thinking it was to late and my wife would leave me anyway, continued on.
Author silktricks Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There's been a lot of debate about whether or not love is an emotion or a verb. I think it's both. It's a feeling that's acted out through loving gestures. Physical love (through kind and loving gestures, not just making love) is a manifestation of how one feels inside. During an A, a MM is not showing love to his W. His actions are selfish and damaging to the W and M whether the W knows about it or not. The lying, deceit, and giving affection to another person is not reflective of love for the W. I see where it is easy for an OW to think he can't love the W, because love doesn't act like that. Well, yeah, I think there's a lot more going on than what I posted as books are written on the subject... So, does the MM show love to his wife during an affair? Obviously the act of having an affair is not loving, but there are many men who are extremely "loving acting" while having an affair. (I think those are more often of the serial cheater stripe, but not always.) Mine was not. But his affair was seated at least in part in anger towards me (as well as wanting to feel better about himself, boredom, etc.) And that anger element could very well be a common thread, too. I don't know. I totally understand how an OW could think he can't love his wife. Most of us, I don't think, can show the duplicity required to carry on an affair, and I don't think any of us want to believe that someone we love (and who says they love us) will do that. But it happens. It happens to BS and it happens to OW. For OW to say "the only reason a MM stays is for money or children or etc" is just as ridiculous as it is for a BS to say "affairs never work out." Patently, neither statement is true.
Author silktricks Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 I can only tell you what the xMM said to me during the A re loving his wife. He said his feeling for her were like the love he had felt for his own mother and had been for many years. I don't imagine he was experiencing Oedipus syndome . It was just his way of saying that they had been married 49 years and they were bored with each other. Gentlegirl I don't remember your story. In the end, did he stay married or leave? And like I said, boredom......
Spark1111 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Well, yeah, I think there's a lot more going on than what I posted as books are written on the subject... So, does the MM show love to his wife during an affair? Obviously the act of having an affair is not loving, but there are many men who are extremely "loving acting" while having an affair. (I think those are more often of the serial cheater stripe, but not always.) Mine was not. But his affair was seated at least in part in anger towards me (as well as wanting to feel better about himself, boredom, etc.) And that anger element could very well be a common thread, too. I don't know. I totally understand how an OW could think he can't love his wife. Most of us, I don't think, can show the duplicity required to carry on an affair, and I don't think any of us want to believe that someone we love (and who says they love us) will do that. But it happens. It happens to BS and it happens to OW. For OW to say "the only reason a MM stays is for money or children or etc" is just as ridiculous as it is for a BS to say "affairs never work out." Patently, neither statement is true. Great thread Silk! I remember wracking my brain after DDay and trying to figure it all out. Was he cold, distant, and angry at me? hell, yes! Did he try to blame me for all that was wrong in his world? Hell yes! What truly threw me off the track was that WE still made love twice a week! Was he somewhat removed? yes! But twice a week we connected intimately and passionately. it was still great, but still a little strange. At first after DDay, I thought this was the ultimate betrayal; a ruse to keep me off-centered and questioning his emotional distance in the daylight. How could he do this while boffing his AP every chance he got? I remember thinking, before I even knew of his affair, well, as long as he still desires me sexually, we have something worth saving no matter what is happening to him emotionally. And oh yeah, I probed constantly, heard "nothing" and chalked it up to job stress. But here is what I concluded: A man cannot just fake it, no matter how he tries. After DDay, I discovered that he did get a prescription for viagra, about midway through the affair, which he used with her. He did start to view porn daily, to help get it up for her. The shame and guilt of it was starting to affect his performance, but he could not, at that point, let her know. She had invested so much into the relationship and he felt guilt, guilt, guilt. Of course he never told her as he was too cowardly to do so. He loved the validation, attention, flattery from her and wanted, no needed, to perform for her; to reciprocate her attentions in a way that makes a woman feel desired! He was in too deep and did not know how to let her down gently. He told me he always loved me, desired me, but felt I (in his depressive state) was too good for him, knew his history and his faults, so had to recreate himself in her eyes as she knew nothingof his past and his failures. He becane addicted to her adoration and she asked for nothing in return....at least initially. She made it easy for him as she took it all, on his terms. And pretended, other than pressuring him for a committment (after close to two years!) that it was all okay. She said she understood. Hell, she should have been smashing plates over his head, fercryin'outloud! My heart breaks for her. Just as I probably do not not know half of what happened or was said or promised during the affair, she will never know half of what has been revealed in intensive therapy in it's aftermath with me! She will never know I told him to go be with his soulmate, I wouldn't stop him; that I wished them both well and that I would never allow his children to disrespect him or her. He never told her. He lied about that too! I gave him carte blanche to be with her, and I am pretty certain he told her he had to give his marriage one more shot; that he couldn't leave his children; that he would lose half his assests and she bought it hook, line and sinker......WHY?????? A smart, resourceful, independent woman, which she seemed to be, would have returned my phone calls and discovered the truth of it all. I would have told her anything she needed to know to heal. So what was she protecting? Me? Him? Or the fantasy she needed to preserve? That we were a loveless marriage, rarely had sex, and their"s was the lovematch of the century.
Spark1111 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I apologize for the long-winded explanation above. Yes, I agree! His affair was an exciting, low investment, high risk and therefore, a very exciting fantasy and DIVERSION, from doing the necessary and intensive work to heal what was sad and broken withing himself! He became HER hero because he could not, or would not, rescue himself. He claims, (though I take everything with a very huge grain of salt) that he never stopped loving me.
Beeotch Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I have twice been in such a scenario... 1. Was a full on relationship with someone who had a gf and I asked him if he loved her and he said, and I quote "Yes but that has nothing to do with how I feel about you...I'm inlove with you" 2. The other scenario he had a gf whom he claimed they were constantly on and off, I was not interested in dating him, I just wanted sex so I truly didn't really care about his gf because I felt no jealousy and possessiveness towards him and he was always "confused" or complaining about her or every 5 seconds they were no longer together. Sooo yea I don't think it has to be that you don't love the person. However, I could also argue that what most people consider to be love is some warped version of it anyway so the things they do while claiming love may be irrelevant anyway since their form of "love" is misguided.
Beeotch Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Great thread Silk! I remember wracking my brain after DDay and trying to figure it all out. Was he cold, distant, and angry at me? hell, yes! Did he try to blame me for all that was wrong in his world? Hell yes! What truly threw me off the track was that WE still made love twice a week! Was he somewhat removed? yes! But twice a week we connected intimately and passionately. it was still great, but still a little strange. At first after DDay, I thought this was the ultimate betrayal; a ruse to keep me off-centered and questioning his emotional distance in the daylight. How could he do this while boffing his AP every chance he got? I remember thinking, before I even knew of his affair, well, as long as he still desires me sexually, we have something worth saving no matter what is happening to him emotionally. And oh yeah, I probed constantly, heard "nothing" and chalked it up to job stress. But here is what I concluded: A man cannot just fake it, no matter how he tries. After DDay, I discovered that he did get a prescription for viagra, about midway through the affair, which he used with her. He did start to view porn daily, to help get it up for her. The shame and guilt of it was starting to affect his performance, but he could not, at that point, let her know. She had invested so much into the relationship and he felt guilt, guilt, guilt. Of course he never told her as he was too cowardly to do so. He loved the validation, attention, flattery from her and wanted, no needed, to perform for her; to reciprocate her attentions in a way that makes a woman feel desired! He was in too deep and did not know how to let her down gently. He told me he always loved me, desired me, but felt I (in his depressive state) was too good for him, knew his history and his faults, so had to recreate himself in her eyes as she knew nothingof his past and his failures. He becane addicted to her adoration and she asked for nothing in return....at least initially. She made it easy for him as she took it all, on his terms. And pretended, other than pressuring him for a committment (after close to two years!) that it was all okay. She said she understood. Hell, she should have been smashing plates over his head, fercryin'outloud! My heart breaks for her. Just as I probably do not not know half of what happened or was said or promised during the affair, she will never know half of what has been revealed in intensive therapy in it's aftermath with me! She will never know I told him to go be with his soulmate, I wouldn't stop him; that I wished them both well and that I would never allow his children to disrespect him or her. He never told her. He lied about that too! I gave him carte blanche to be with her, and I am pretty certain he told her he had to give his marriage one more shot; that he couldn't leave his children; that he would lose half his assests and she bought it hook, line and sinker......WHY?????? A smart, resourceful, independent woman, which she seemed to be, would have returned my phone calls and discovered the truth of it all. I would have told her anything she needed to know to heal. So what was she protecting? Me? Him? Or the fantasy she needed to preserve? That we were a loveless marriage, rarely had sex, and their"s was the lovematch of the century. Wow....Riveting!
carrie999 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There's been a lot of debate about whether or not love is an emotion or a verb. I think it's both. It's a feeling that's acted out through loving gestures. Physical love (through kind and loving gestures, not just making love) is a manifestation of how one feels inside. During an A, a MM is not showing love to his W. His actions are selfish and damaging to the W and M whether the W knows about it or not. The lying, deceit, and giving affection to another person is not reflective of love for the W. I see where it is easy for an OW to think he can't love the W, because love doesn't act like that. I don't see where a BS can truly reconcile that the WS loved her during the A. Loved her before, yes, and after, yes, but during? No, I don't really think so. Perhaps the emotions were there, but there was a breakdown somewhere between feelings and actions. That's not a bad reflection of the BS, BTW. I think it has much more to do with the WS himself and his inability to handle his stuff, and an overall shut down, than it is a reflection of the qualities or "lovability" of the BS. Perfectly put! And no, it's not a reflection on the BS at all.
Breezy Trousers Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Since I didn't want to threadjack, I thought I'd start one. First my disclaimer, as most of you know I'm primarily a fBS... It's often been said that a MM must not love his wife because if he did he wouldn't have an affair. I disagree with this statement, not only because of my own life, but more pointedly because of my father-in-law. He cheated on his wife - a lot. But it was evident to observers right up to the day he died that he truly loved his wife. So, in the case of the affairs where the OW is immediately dropped on D-Day, and the MM can't wait to start telling his wife how "she never meant a thing" I really don't think it's a lack of love for his spouse that caused the affair, nor the fear of lack of money that keeps in him his marriage. I think the affair is primarily due to boredom, and love that keeps him in the marriage. Think about it. What is the most exciting, most heart-pounding, most intense thing that ever happens to most of us? Falling in love. In our highly technical and highly boring society, there just isn't that much that can really get the blood boiling for most people - just love, or lust, or hot sex. I'm not saying that married sex can't be hot cuz it is. But it's not (usually) got all of the other stuff (the "falling" in love, the newness, the exploration, etc) that is there with someone new - not to mention the stark fear of getting caught if you're cheating. And undoubtedly for some the manipulation of another person So, though it's understandable for someone to say "he must not love her if he cheated with me", I think that is disingenuous, as most people are where they truly want to be. If they truly want to be with the OW, they'll get out of the marriage and be with her. If on D-Day they truly want to stay with their wife, they will. Great thread, Silk. I absolutely agree with you. My experience supports what you're saying. I've walked both sides of the fence and have learned that there are a lot of lame cultural assumptions about affairs. I guess you don't know these are myths until you've lived the experience. Ten years ago, my husband and I kept insisting to friends that our marriage was happy before the infidelity. Thankfully, therapists are now coming out and saying that their research & experience is supporting precisely that --- that affairs can and do happen in happy marriages. (BTW, Spark, superb!!! I loved your reply.) I was betrayed in 2001. Husband threw OW under the bus on D-Day. Spark pretty much nailed it. My husband readily admits he loved the validation, attention, flattery from OW. She was a single mom who had just filed bankruptcy, so I think she was deliberately seeking things from my husband. She may have loved him, for sure, but I have no doubt she was also attempting to secure financial resources and stability for herself and her child. So I'm sure she worked it! ...And it worked! Love fog was super intense for my husband! I knew immediately when the affair started because he suddenly wasn't connecting to me AT ALL -- he was giving all his attention to OW and, for the first time in our relationship, treating me like I was nothing. (Now he says he was projecting his guilt onto me ... He had to demonize me to rationalize his lying. Demonizing me also drew him closer to OW... Unfortunately, it backfired because he demonized her when he was reconciling with me. Blech.) I do think my husband had feelings for OW and enjoyed her attention & the excitement of new sex, but in no way did he ever intend to commit his life to her. She was thrown under the bus. I used to feel bad for her but, after nearly becoming an OW, not so much anymore. OW knew he was married. She came to our home, she ate dinner with us. No matter how "nice" she is, she deliberately made numerous small choices to intrude upon our marriage for her own ends. I know this because I, too, nearly became an OW. I was happily married. My temptation to have an affair had nothing to do with my marriage but, buoyed by a MM's flattery, I became intoxicated with the notion of new sex, attention and excitement. I deliberately made choices NOT to become his OW, but it was hard work. But I proved to myself that it can be done. So now I'm more understanding of how it happens but, at the same time, less forgiving of the numerous calculations that go into affairs. Ironic. As with Spark, I told my husband to leave on D-Day -- to go be with his "soulmate." I was moving on. He asked for another chance, promising he would work on himself and the marriage. It was a rocky time in our marriage, but his daily actions and all his actions in the past 10 years have proven his love and committment. It's ironic, but OW actually brought us closer together than before. Someone here recommended Steve Harvey's books. I'm enjoying them. Harvey wrote his books with the intention of helping women set better boundaries with men by understanding how men think -- and it's not how women think. Harvey -- who is happily married, BTW -- says that men compartmentalize and have no problem distinguishing between their wife and a woman on the side. He said the wife comes first, because men easily differentiate between love (which is demonstrated by men via commitment/protection/sharing a life together) and sex & excitement on the side. It's women who can't make the same distinction. That's where the problem is. Women approach relationships from an entirely different perspective from men -- i.e., if you have sex, it must be love. Because women sincerely believe this, they project their belief onto the man and assume he's approaching the relationship in the same fashion ... Big mistake, according to Harvey .... If men love you, they will move mountains to commit to you. However, if you make yourself available to them, they will happily take advantage of that, which is why Harvey encourages women to set clear standards / boundaries for themselves as a means of protecting their integrity and their hearts .... Harvey also said most men cheat because they truly believe they will never get caught and, if they do get caught, believe they will be able to lie their way out of it. Not exactly rocket science, but just straight talk from a guy. Makes sense to me and, again, matches my experience. If I remember correctly, anthropologist Helen Fisher's research provides science supporting what Harvey is saying --- lest I be accused of supporting sexism. Edited June 2, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
Breezy Trousers Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I wanted to add -- Monogamists aren't usually well acquainted with the dynamics of love affair. They tend to read more into it, especially women. That lack of understanding, coupled with the intensity of love fog, will make monogamists more willing to throw an established relationship overboard. Polyamorists aren't as inclined. They're well aware of how love fog works and openly discuss how it should be handled so it doesn't threaten a long-term relationship. They acknowledge that love fog eventually passes in the love affair, just as it came to pass in the long term relationship. Decades-long! studies on numerous monogamists and polyamorists' marriages showed, surprisingly, that infidelity doesn't destroy marriages. Lack of communication does.
OWoman Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Since I didn't want to threadjack, I thought I'd start one. First my disclaimer, as most of you know I'm primarily a fBS... It's often been said that a MM must not love his wife because if he did he wouldn't have an affair. I disagree with this statement, not only because of my own life, but more pointedly because of my father-in-law. He cheated on his wife - a lot. But it was evident to observers right up to the day he died that he truly loved his wife. So, in the case of the affairs where the OW is immediately dropped on D-Day, and the MM can't wait to start telling his wife how "she never meant a thing" I really don't think it's a lack of love for his spouse that caused the affair, nor the fear of lack of money that keeps in him his marriage. I think the affair is primarily due to boredom, and love that keeps him in the marriage. Think about it. What is the most exciting, most heart-pounding, most intense thing that ever happens to most of us? Falling in love. In our highly technical and highly boring society, there just isn't that much that can really get the blood boiling for most people - just love, or lust, or hot sex. I'm not saying that married sex can't be hot cuz it is. But it's not (usually) got all of the other stuff (the "falling" in love, the newness, the exploration, etc) that is there with someone new - not to mention the stark fear of getting caught if you're cheating. And undoubtedly for some the manipulation of another person So, though it's understandable for someone to say "he must not love her if he cheated with me", I think that is disingenuous, as most people are where they truly want to be. If they truly want to be with the OW, they'll get out of the marriage and be with her. If on D-Day they truly want to stay with their wife, they will. I think this is certainly a possibility - but I would hesitate to apply it to ALL cases where the MM immediately drops the OW on DDay. I think that there are a multitude of possibilities and permutations, and I'm very weary of any kind of "one size fits all" theories around As or any other kind of R. I've certainly never said that MMs who stay necessarily don't love the BW - I'm sure some do, just as I'm sure some don't. I'm sure some MMs who leave also love the BW - whether they realise it at the time or not. And I'm sure some MMs who stay also love the OW. I don't think it's that simple that one can deduce who he loves (or who he loves more) by whether he stays or goes - there are many factors involved in decisions like that, and which factors hold more weight will obviously vary from individual to individual.
Silly_Girl Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Since I didn't want to threadjack, I thought I'd start one. First my disclaimer, as most of you know I'm primarily a fBS... It's often been said that a MM must not love his wife because if he did he wouldn't have an affair. I disagree with this statement, not only because of my own life, but more pointedly because of my father-in-law. He cheated on his wife - a lot. But it was evident to observers right up to the day he died that he truly loved his wife. So, in the case of the affairs where the OW is immediately dropped on D-Day, and the MM can't wait to start telling his wife how "she never meant a thing" I really don't think it's a lack of love for his spouse that caused the affair, nor the fear of lack of money that keeps in him his marriage. I think the affair is primarily due to boredom, and love that keeps him in the marriage. Think about it. What is the most exciting, most heart-pounding, most intense thing that ever happens to most of us? Falling in love. In our highly technical and highly boring society, there just isn't that much that can really get the blood boiling for most people - just love, or lust, or hot sex. I'm not saying that married sex can't be hot cuz it is. But it's not (usually) got all of the other stuff (the "falling" in love, the newness, the exploration, etc) that is there with someone new - not to mention the stark fear of getting caught if you're cheating. And undoubtedly for some the manipulation of another person So, though it's understandable for someone to say "he must not love her if he cheated with me", I think that is disingenuous, as most people are where they truly want to be. If they truly want to be with the OW, they'll get out of the marriage and be with her. If on D-Day they truly want to stay with their wife, they will. Silk, doesn't it all come down to context? And is why it's so hard for responses on a forum to get it 'right' because there will be so many aspects that leads the OP to their conclusion/decision/feelings? The actions before and after the affair are as telling as during, I think. If marital sex has been minimal or non-existent, the parties barely engage, and appear to have little respect for each other, and then MM says 'I'm done with that s!ut, let's get MC and be happy honey', and then tries not one little bit, then I'd say quite likely he didn't give a damn in the first place. Likewise if it was a long affair, with declarations of love and the OW was semi-integrated in to his real life, and it looked to be sincere and tangible, if he turns around on D-day and says 'she never meant a thing', the BS is unlikely to swallow that for a second, and nor should she. And if there was a solid marriage, and an affair came out of nowhere, and he DID drop the OW, and he DID do the full reconciliation and he DID feel like a total P.O.S. I'd say it's very likely he didn't stop loving his wife, whether he suppressed it, or 'forgot' or what... he f**ked up and will work hard to make it better. Mindless affairs happen, as do meaningful ones.
Author silktricks Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I think this is certainly a possibility - but I would hesitate to apply it to ALL cases where the MM immediately drops the OW on DDay. I think that there are a multitude of possibilities and permutations, and I'm very weary of any kind of "one size fits all" theories around As or any other kind of R. I've certainly never said that MMs who stay necessarily don't love the BW - I'm sure some do, just as I'm sure some don't. I'm sure some MMs who leave also love the BW - whether they realise it at the time or not. And I'm sure some MMs who stay also love the OW. I don't think it's that simple that one can deduce who he loves (or who he loves more) by whether he stays or goes - there are many factors involved in decisions like that, and which factors hold more weight will obviously vary from individual to individual. Of course you are correct, generalizations are simply that generalizations. I obviously didn't word it carefully enough, as I didn't mean ALL - but I also get tired of saying "of course, I don't mean all :)" I guess at some point I expect readers to fill in the blanks to a certain extent.... And yes, I think there are many factors, but one of the factors that is continually dismissed by OW is that often (note, not all ) the MM who stays with his wife stays because he loves her. He never did intend to leave, he just wanted some way to get excitement into his boring life.
Owl Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I would say that in the first stages of an affair...most of the time (yes, a generalization)...the WS quickly learns to be an expert at compartmentalization. When they're with their spouse...their focus is on their spouse. They love their spouse. When they're with their affair partner...the focus is on that partner. They love their affair partner. They work hard to keep those two worlds seperated from each other. But...the problem is that most people can't evenly balance how much they emotionally invest in two seperate, diverse relationships. What they invest in one, they end up subtracting from the other. One relationship waxes...the other wanes. As those relationships wax/wane...the love they feel for the person that they're investing more into the relationship grows...and the love they feel for the other person diminishes. My wife loved both of us at d-day. She was struggling with loving both of us at the same time...she felt that one relationship was growing, and the other fading. When faced with a choice...when no longer ABLE to invest in both...the one she turned to and invested in grew. It happened to be our marriage. Had she chosen to be with OM...I've no doubt that they would have been happy for a while. But given that her source of unhappiness actually had nothing to do with our marriage...she'd have eventually been unhappy there too, unless she took the right steps to deal with and fix the problem. The bottom line is that the relationship that grows is the one you invest in. The more you practice love as a verb with someone (and it is reciprocated), the more you "love" as a feeling towards that person is generated.
Spark1111 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Great thread, Silk. I absolutely agree with you. My experience supports what you're saying. I've walked both sides of the fence and have learned that there are a lot of lame cultural assumptions about affairs. I guess you don't know these are myths until you've lived the experience. Ten years ago, my husband and I kept insisting to friends that our marriage was happy before the infidelity. Thankfully, therapists are now coming out and saying that their research & experience is supporting precisely that --- that affairs can and do happen in happy marriages. (BTW, Spark, superb!!! I loved your reply.) I was betrayed in 2001. Husband threw OW under the bus on D-Day. Spark pretty much nailed it. My husband readily admits he loved the validation, attention, flattery from OW. She was a single mom who had just filed bankruptcy, so I think she was deliberately seeking things from my husband. She may have loved him, for sure, but I have no doubt she was also attempting to secure financial resources and stability for herself and her child. So I'm sure she worked it! ...And it worked! Love fog was super intense for my husband! I knew immediately when the affair started because he suddenly wasn't connecting to me AT ALL -- he was giving all his attention to OW and, for the first time in our relationship, treating me like I was nothing. (Now he says he was projecting his guilt onto me ... He had to demonize me to rationalize his lying. Demonizing me also drew him closer to OW... Unfortunately, it backfired because he demonized her when he was reconciling with me. Blech.) I do think my husband had feelings for OW and enjoyed her attention & the excitement of new sex, but in no way did he ever intend to commit his life to her. She was thrown under the bus. I used to feel bad for her but, after nearly becoming an OW, not so much anymore. OW knew he was married. She came to our home, she ate dinner with us. No matter how "nice" she is, she deliberately made numerous small choices to intrude upon our marriage for her own ends. I know this because I, too, nearly became an OW. I was happily married. My temptation to have an affair had nothing to do with my marriage but, buoyed by a MM's flattery, I became intoxicated with the notion of new sex, attention and excitement. I deliberately made choices NOT to become his OW, but it was hard work. But I proved to myself that it can be done. So now I'm more understanding of how it happens but, at the same time, less forgiving of the numerous calculations that go into affairs. Ironic. As with Spark, I told my husband to leave on D-Day -- to go be with his "soulmate." I was moving on. He asked for another chance, promising he would work on himself and the marriage. It was a rocky time in our marriage, but his daily actions and all his actions in the past 10 years have proven his love and committment. It's ironic, but OW actually brought us closer together than before. Someone here recommended Steve Harvey's books. I'm enjoying them. Harvey wrote his books with the intention of helping women set better boundaries with men by understanding how men think -- and it's not how women think. Harvey -- who is happily married, BTW -- says that men compartmentalize and have no problem distinguishing between their wife and a woman on the side. He said the wife comes first, because men easily differentiate between love (which is demonstrated by men via commitment/protection/sharing a life together) and sex & excitement on the side. It's women who can't make the same distinction. That's where the problem is. Women approach relationships from an entirely different perspective from men -- i.e., if you have sex, it must be love. Because women sincerely believe this, they project their belief onto the man and assume he's approaching the relationship in the same fashion ... Big mistake, according to Harvey .... If men love you, they will move mountains to commit to you. However, if you make yourself available to them, they will happily take advantage of that, which is why Harvey encourages women to set clear standards / boundaries for themselves as a means of protecting their integrity and their hearts .... Harvey also said most men cheat because they truly believe they will never get caught and, if they do get caught, believe they will be able to lie their way out of it. Not exactly rocket science, but just straight talk from a guy. Makes sense to me and, again, matches my experience. If I remember correctly, anthropologist Helen Fisher's research provides science supporting what Harvey is saying --- lest I be accused of supporting sexism. Great response! The xOW in our scenario was also a single mom parenting a difficult child after a highly acrimonious D from her xH who had married HIS last OW. The OW in her sitch was younger, more succesful, and more accomplished. I cannot think of a situation where a woman could be MORE vulnerable to the attentions of a kind, successful man, married or not. I cannot help but wonder if my H sensed this vulnerability in how quickly she responded to his attention, making her an easy target for him! I cannot help but wonder if she sensed his depression and how quickly he responded to her constant complimenting. A perfect storm. And yes, subconciously on her part, a secured future with financially ambitious man. As for Steve Harvey, he speaks of the 90-day rule: No sex until a woman can assess his true character. Evolutionary biologists back this premise in that when a woman orgasms with a man, the oxytocin that floods her brain is as addictive and as damaging as heroin: clouds her judgement to character and puts those "IN LOVE" rose-colored glasses squarely on her nose!
Spark1111 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I would say that in the first stages of an affair...most of the time (yes, a generalization)...the WS quickly learns to be an expert at compartmentalization. When they're with their spouse...their focus is on their spouse. They love their spouse. When they're with their affair partner...the focus is on that partner. They love their affair partner. They work hard to keep those two worlds seperated from each other. But...the problem is that most people can't evenly balance how much they emotionally invest in two seperate, diverse relationships. What they invest in one, they end up subtracting from the other. One relationship waxes...the other wanes. As those relationships wax/wane...the love they feel for the person that they're investing more into the relationship grows...and the love they feel for the other person diminishes. My wife loved both of us at d-day. She was struggling with loving both of us at the same time...she felt that one relationship was growing, and the other fading. When faced with a choice...when no longer ABLE to invest in both...the one she turned to and invested in grew. It happened to be our marriage. Had she chosen to be with OM...I've no doubt that they would have been happy for a while. But given that her source of unhappiness actually had nothing to do with our marriage...she'd have eventually been unhappy there too, unless she took the right steps to deal with and fix the problem. The bottom line is that the relationship that grows is the one you invest in. The more you practice love as a verb with someone (and it is reciprocated), the more you "love" as a feeling towards that person is generated. Owl, there is a lot of wisdom and expensive therapy in that statement! We too learned that the relationship you invest in, is the one that grows, if both partners are investing! Many a WS learns that it is NOT what you weren't getting from the relationship that caused failure; it was what you weren't giving to the relationship. The more you give, the more you can get.
Snowflower Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Great thread, Silk. I absolutely agree with you. My experience supports what you're saying. I've walked both sides of the fence and have learned that there are a lot of lame cultural assumptions about affairs. I guess you don't know these are myths until you've lived the experience. Ten years ago, my husband and I kept insisting to friends that our marriage was happy before the infidelity. Thankfully, therapists are now coming out and saying that their research & experience is supporting precisely that --- that affairs can and do happen in happy marriages. (BTW, Spark, superb!!! I loved your reply.) I was betrayed in 2001. Husband threw OW under the bus on D-Day. Spark pretty much nailed it. My husband readily admits he loved the validation, attention, flattery from OW. She was a single mom who had just filed bankruptcy, so I think she was deliberately seeking things from my husband. She may have loved him, for sure, but I have no doubt she was also attempting to secure financial resources and stability for herself and her child. So I'm sure she worked it! ...And it worked! Love fog was super intense for my husband! I knew immediately when the affair started because he suddenly wasn't connecting to me AT ALL -- he was giving all his attention to OW and, for the first time in our relationship, treating me like I was nothing. (Now he says he was projecting his guilt onto me ... He had to demonize me to rationalize his lying. Demonizing me also drew him closer to OW... Unfortunately, it backfired because he demonized her when he was reconciling with me. Blech.) I do think my husband had feelings for OW and enjoyed her attention & the excitement of new sex, but in no way did he ever intend to commit his life to her. She was thrown under the bus. I used to feel bad for her but, after nearly becoming an OW, not so much anymore. OW knew he was married. She came to our home, she ate dinner with us. No matter how "nice" she is, she deliberately made numerous small choices to intrude upon our marriage for her own ends. I know this because I, too, nearly became an OW. I was happily married. My temptation to have an affair had nothing to do with my marriage but, buoyed by a MM's flattery, I became intoxicated with the notion of new sex, attention and excitement. I deliberately made choices NOT to become his OW, but it was hard work. But I proved to myself that it can be done. So now I'm more understanding of how it happens but, at the same time, less forgiving of the numerous calculations that go into affairs. Ironic. As with Spark, I told my husband to leave on D-Day -- to go be with his "soulmate." I was moving on. He asked for another chance, promising he would work on himself and the marriage. It was a rocky time in our marriage, but his daily actions and all his actions in the past 10 years have proven his love and committment. It's ironic, but OW actually brought us closer together than before. Someone here recommended Steve Harvey's books. I'm enjoying them. Harvey wrote his books with the intention of helping women set better boundaries with men by understanding how men think -- and it's not how women think. Harvey -- who is happily married, BTW -- says that men compartmentalize and have no problem distinguishing between their wife and a woman on the side. He said the wife comes first, because men easily differentiate between love (which is demonstrated by men via commitment/protection/sharing a life together) and sex & excitement on the side. It's women who can't make the same distinction. That's where the problem is. Women approach relationships from an entirely different perspective from men -- i.e., if you have sex, it must be love. Because women sincerely believe this, they project their belief onto the man and assume he's approaching the relationship in the same fashion ... Big mistake, according to Harvey .... If men love you, they will move mountains to commit to you. However, if you make yourself available to them, they will happily take advantage of that, which is why Harvey encourages women to set clear standards / boundaries for themselves as a means of protecting their integrity and their hearts .... Harvey also said most men cheat because they truly believe they will never get caught and, if they do get caught, believe they will be able to lie their way out of it. Not exactly rocket science, but just straight talk from a guy. Makes sense to me and, again, matches my experience. If I remember correctly, anthropologist Helen Fisher's research provides science supporting what Harvey is saying --- lest I be accused of supporting sexism. I loved this post, breezy. Thanks for writing it.
Ellin Posted June 5, 2011 Posted June 5, 2011 For OW to say "the only reason a MM stays is for money or children or etc" is just as ridiculous as it is for a BS to say "affairs never work out." Patently, neither statement is true. Statements like this don't make sense when it is claimed that they're ALWAYS true. Every case is different. Some affairs don't work out. Some do. Some OW believe that their MM love them more than they love W, others don't think so. Some MM do stay only or mainly for reasons like children and money, others stay for their W. Right?
Author silktricks Posted June 5, 2011 Author Posted June 5, 2011 Silk, doesn't it all come down to context? And is why it's so hard for responses on a forum to get it 'right' because there will be so many aspects that leads the OP to their conclusion/decision/feelings? The actions before and after the affair are as telling as during, I think. If marital sex has been minimal or non-existent, the parties barely engage, and appear to have little respect for each other, and then MM says 'I'm done with that s!ut, let's get MC and be happy honey', and then tries not one little bit, then I'd say quite likely he didn't give a damn in the first place. Likewise if it was a long affair, with declarations of love and the OW was semi-integrated in to his real life, and it looked to be sincere and tangible, if he turns around on D-day and says 'she never meant a thing', the BS is unlikely to swallow that for a second, and nor should she. And if there was a solid marriage, and an affair came out of nowhere, and he DID drop the OW, and he DID do the full reconciliation and he DID feel like a total P.O.S. I'd say it's very likely he didn't stop loving his wife, whether he suppressed it, or 'forgot' or what... he f**ked up and will work hard to make it better. Mindless affairs happen, as do meaningful ones. I absolutely agree with what you are saying here. (Sorry I didn't respond before.) The thing I was trying to get across is that most OW will say "he didn't love his wife, but had to stay because of kids, or finances or whatever. But it's always a given that love was not the reason. Just trying to say that sometimes it IS the reason
MissBee Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) Great thread, Silk. I absolutely agree with you. My experience supports what you're saying. I've walked both sides of the fence and have learned that there are a lot of lame cultural assumptions about affairs. I guess you don't know these are myths until you've lived the experience. Ten years ago, my husband and I kept insisting to friends that our marriage was happy before the infidelity. Thankfully, therapists are now coming out and saying that their research & experience is supporting precisely that --- that affairs can and do happen in happy marriages. (BTW, Spark, superb!!! I loved your reply.) I was betrayed in 2001. Husband threw OW under the bus on D-Day. Spark pretty much nailed it. My husband readily admits he loved the validation, attention, flattery from OW. She was a single mom who had just filed bankruptcy, so I think she was deliberately seeking things from my husband. She may have loved him, for sure, but I have no doubt she was also attempting to secure financial resources and stability for herself and her child. So I'm sure she worked it! ...And it worked! Love fog was super intense for my husband! I knew immediately when the affair started because he suddenly wasn't connecting to me AT ALL -- he was giving all his attention to OW and, for the first time in our relationship, treating me like I was nothing. (Now he says he was projecting his guilt onto me ... He had to demonize me to rationalize his lying. Demonizing me also drew him closer to OW... Unfortunately, it backfired because he demonized her when he was reconciling with me. Blech.) I do think my husband had feelings for OW and enjoyed her attention & the excitement of new sex, but in no way did he ever intend to commit his life to her. She was thrown under the bus. I used to feel bad for her but, after nearly becoming an OW, not so much anymore. OW knew he was married. She came to our home, she ate dinner with us. No matter how "nice" she is, she deliberately made numerous small choices to intrude upon our marriage for her own ends. I know this because I, too, nearly became an OW. I was happily married. My temptation to have an affair had nothing to do with my marriage but, buoyed by a MM's flattery, I became intoxicated with the notion of new sex, attention and excitement. I deliberately made choices NOT to become his OW, but it was hard work. But I proved to myself that it can be done. So now I'm more understanding of how it happens but, at the same time, less forgiving of the numerous calculations that go into affairs. Ironic. As with Spark, I told my husband to leave on D-Day -- to go be with his "soulmate." I was moving on. He asked for another chance, promising he would work on himself and the marriage. It was a rocky time in our marriage, but his daily actions and all his actions in the past 10 years have proven his love and committment. It's ironic, but OW actually brought us closer together than before. Someone here recommended Steve Harvey's books. I'm enjoying them. Harvey wrote his books with the intention of helping women set better boundaries with men by understanding how men think -- and it's not how women think. Harvey -- who is happily married, BTW -- says that men compartmentalize and have no problem distinguishing between their wife and a woman on the side. He said the wife comes first, because men easily differentiate between love (which is demonstrated by men via commitment/protection/sharing a life together) and sex & excitement on the side. It's women who can't make the same distinction. That's where the problem is. Women approach relationships from an entirely different perspective from men -- i.e., if you have sex, it must be love. Because women sincerely believe this, they project their belief onto the man and assume he's approaching the relationship in the same fashion ... Big mistake, according to Harvey .... If men love you, they will move mountains to commit to you. However, if you make yourself available to them, they will happily take advantage of that, which is why Harvey encourages women to set clear standards / boundaries for themselves as a means of protecting their integrity and their hearts .... Harvey also said most men cheat because they truly believe they will never get caught and, if they do get caught, believe they will be able to lie their way out of it. Not exactly rocket science, but just straight talk from a guy. Makes sense to me and, again, matches my experience. If I remember correctly, anthropologist Helen Fisher's research provides science supporting what Harvey is saying --- lest I be accused of supporting sexism. This is SO VERY true! Point blank. Nothing else to add in that regard. Excellent post! Edited June 6, 2011 by MissBee
Silly_Girl Posted June 6, 2011 Posted June 6, 2011 I absolutely agree with what you are saying here. (Sorry I didn't respond before.) The thing I was trying to get across is that most OW will say "he didn't love his wife, but had to stay because of kids, or finances or whatever. But it's always a given that love was not the reason. Just trying to say that sometimes it IS the reason I agree that sometimes that definitely is the reason. Has to be, in a proportion of cases, else there'd be no such thing as a successful marriage which has been touched by infidelity, and I believe such a thing can exist.
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