Author irc333 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Listen, you have to treat women nice and respect them, but you also have to flirt with them and be romantic and seduce them. I admittedly have trouble with that, but to say that women don't like nice guys is ridiculous. They like them, they just want them to be more than just "nice." Well, this post was made to include that flirting and particpating in the romantic is already involved here. I just never mentioned that in the initial post. Just Clarifying.
sally4sara Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I have NO idea how this even relates to the topic, talk about WAY out in left field. lol He asks "remember when...." this thing use to happen to me but now it doesn't play out that way and is just BS? It implies something use to happen for him that no longer does. I offered reasons why it might have use to go that way for him as well as reasons why it might not be working for him anymore because he seemed (to me at least) to be making a social commentary about acts of kindness. Like if I said "remember when all it took to keep a guy around was to bake a pie? He would happily eat the pie and voice his appreciation but now its all fake BS and doesn't go down that way."
fishtaco Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Being kind to other people makes you happy. That's not just "nice" mumbo jumbo (uttered in various ways from some really wise, accomplished, and famous people, though my favorite is from the Dalai Lama who says, "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion; if you, yourself, would be happy, practice compassion"). It's also statistically proven. Being kind = more happiness. Not just neutral, not looking for "what you can get" but actually going out in the world, being good, being friendly, being kind, and helping others with a generosity mindset. That said, I'm not suggesting you forget your own needs and go out in the world, giving all your money away, falling down all over yourself to help others at the expense of yourself. That's not being nice; it's being weird and usually comes from weird motives, like uber-neediness. But being all "What's in it for me" is equally useless in the world as tripping all over yourself, neglecting your own needs. Yes, but I thought we were talking about attracting women for the purpose of getting a date. Even in your own earlier post, you said that you don't appreciate nice when it's meant to be for gaining points. Dislike my language all you want, but the point is being nice in order to get the girl to go on a date with you, is the type of nice that even you, a proponent of nice, will reject... i.e. it has a purpose. This perfectly proves my point. If you want to get a girl to go on a date with you, being nice is not the way to go. However, if you want to be nice for world peace, sure, go for it. But then it's not about getting a date; it's about world peace.
Author irc333 Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Well, I would imagine it would be a prerequisite, among other things. Yes, but I thought we were talking about attracting women for the purpose of getting a date. Even in your own earlier post, you said that you don't appreciate nice when it's meant to be for gaining points. Dislike my language all you want, but the point is being nice in order to get the girl to go on a date with you, is the type of nice that even you, a proponent of nice, will reject... i.e. it has a purpose. This perfectly proves my point. If you want to get a girl to go on a date with you, being nice is not the way to go. However, if you want to be nice for world peace, sure, go for it. But then it's not about getting a date; it's about world peace.
fishtaco Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Well, I would imagine it would be a prerequisite, among other things. Don't understand your post. What would be a prerequisite? Being nice? Not being a bastard is a prerequisite. Being nice is optional. Do it if it makes you feel good about yourself, but you're not going to gain anything from it, in terms of gaining enough romantic attraction to get a date.
Sanman Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 What's so wrong with that? Listen, you have to treat women nice and respect them, but you also have to flirt with them and be romantic and seduce them. I admittedly have trouble with that, but to say that women don't like nice guys is ridiculous. They like them, they just want them to be more than just "nice." Nope, sorry. That doesn't mean I am an *******. It just means that I find no reason to be nice to anyone that does not deserve it other than a personal need to feel good about myself as a human being. I am very nice to my friends. Any woman I meet can earn that niceness in a similar fashion. Until then, they are just another person. For further explanation see Fishtaco's post.
Untouchable_Fire Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Seriously, it takes experience to learn when a woman is flirting and when she is not. Most of they time girls especially like to play coy. Young guys often mistake signals... I went through that a few times myself. I had many girls who liked me and I simply didn't have a clue. Like all things in life this just comes for most with time and experience. Also as most guys have pointed out... women don't really value "niceness" in a potential mate until the relationship is already formed. While boys and men tend to highly value this trait... which makes it hard to understand when women don't. First being exceedingly nice to girls I liked was a total failure... so I copied other guys and instead was mean... which kinda worked... then eventually just acted however I like, which works crazy good. We learn and grow over time.
zengirl Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 fishtaco: I don't go out with guys who aren't nice, and I don't go out with guys I suspect are being nice ONLY to score points. I go out with (and generally associate with) people who are nice by default because it's the general way to be in the world if you want to be a happy, productive adult. Sorry if that was unclear. So being "not nice" wouldn't work on me any better than being "nice to score points" (if a guy was sneak enough about this one to fakenice well, I guess he might get through; the not-nice guy would never get through). Nope, sorry. That doesn't mean I am an *******. It just means that I find no reason to be nice to anyone that does not deserve it other than a personal need to feel good about myself as a human being. I am very nice to my friends. Any woman I meet can earn that niceness in a similar fashion. Until then, they are just another person. For further explanation see Fishtaco's post. Wow, what a weird, harsh world where people think others have to "earn" niceness or "deserve" it. I always think of "nice" as default. Anyone who thinks that it is some sort of effort that needs to be earned just seems like kind of a jerk to me.
Sanman Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Wow, what a weird, harsh world where people think others have to "earn" niceness or "deserve" it. I always think of "nice" as default. Anyone who thinks that it is some sort of effort that needs to be earned just seems like kind of a jerk to me. I think of polite as a default and I am always polite. Being nice to someone suggests that you are treating them in a better fashion than you would others. I do that for my friends. I treat everyone else equally. Male or female and any other color of the spectrum. For example, I can be nice and buy someone a drink. This behavior is reserved for friends. If you are a woman that I do not know I will not buy you a drink simply because you possess internal genitalia. If we to strike up a conversation and I take a liking to you I may buy you a drink because you earned it by being enjoyable company or if you bought me a drink and I am returning the favor.
fishtaco Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 fishtaco: I don't go out with guys who aren't nice, and I don't go out with guys I suspect are being nice ONLY to score points. I go out with (and generally associate with) people who are nice by default because it's the general way to be in the world if you want to be a happy, productive adult. Sorry if that was unclear. So being "not nice" wouldn't work on me any better than being "nice to score points" (if a guy was sneak enough about this one to fakenice well, I guess he might get through; the not-nice guy would never get through). Sure, but this thread is about "I like this girl, therefore let me treat her nice until she goes on a date with me". This does not work according to my experience, it does not work according to various posters experience. And you, being the torch bearer of "no way! nice is good" even just re-affirmed it once more in your post -- it accomplishes nothing. Bottom line, treating a girl nice will not get you a date. And you don't need me to tell you I strongly disagree with you almost on every single level. I'm with Sanman. If that makes me a jerk, so be it.
Author irc333 Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 This also begs the question. Why is it I see 100's upon 100's of profile headers or dating ads stating....from a woman 1. Looking for a nice guy 2. WHERE are all the nice guys? (Must be the top TWO questions on dating sites that are posed by women) Other variants include a. Looking for a good-hearted guy b. Jerks and players need NOT apply And so on...it's endless, obviously a prerequesite on dating profiles of women. Ironically, I think almost every woman I emailed that stated this in their ad, hardly ever replied. Guess I'm not a nice guy <shrug> lol
fishtaco Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 This also begs the question. Why is it I see 100's upon 100's of profile headers or dating ads stating....from a woman 1. Looking for a nice guy 2. WHERE are all the nice guys? (Must be the top TWO questions on dating sites that are posed by women) Other variants include a. Looking for a good-hearted guy b. Jerks and players need NOT apply And so on...it's endless, obviously a prerequesite on dating profiles of women. Ironically, I think almost every woman I emailed that stated this in their ad, hardly ever replied. Guess I'm not a nice guy <shrug> lol Because that's all BS. When you see a profile like that, it's similar to the "absolutely no drama!" profiles. It means they are not worth dating.
Sanman Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Because that's all BS. When you see a profile like that, it's similar to the "absolutely no drama!" profiles. It means they are not worth dating. Yup, what they are trying to tell you is that they need a nice guy and someone who is low drama because they have enough drama that they created themselves while trying to forget about the bad boy they just broke up with. They can't handle anymore from you!!! :laugh:
zengirl Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I think of polite as a default and I am always polite. Being nice to someone suggests that you are treating them in a better fashion than you would others. I do that for my friends. I treat everyone else equally. Male or female and any other color of the spectrum. For example, I can be nice and buy someone a drink. This behavior is reserved for friends. If you are a woman that I do not know I will not buy you a drink simply because you possess internal genitalia. If we to strike up a conversation and I take a liking to you I may buy you a drink because you earned it by being enjoyable company or if you bought me a drink and I am returning the favor. I think being nice is simply a state of mind that allows one kindness towards others, neither "polite" nor "purchasing." It's a welcoming spirit. I don't expect people to purchase things for me to show they are good, nice people, though, so if that's your barometer, I find it all a bit odd. I'm not that materialistic. (Now, on a date, a man not paying, *IF* it seems awkward, may be a bad sign, but that's simply because of other social forces, not because I'd assume he wasn't nice!) Nice is like handing the door off nicely when you walk in, greeting people warmly, and going about your day with a positive attitude, caring about other people's feelings.
Sanman Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I think being nice is simply a state of mind that allows one kindness towards others, neither "polite" nor "purchasing." It's a welcoming spirit. I don't expect people to purchase things for me to show they are good, nice people, though, so if that's your barometer, I find it all a bit odd. I'm not that materialistic. (Now, on a date, a man not paying, *IF* it seems awkward, may be a bad sign, but that's simply because of other social forces, not because I'd assume he wasn't nice!) Nice is like handing the door off nicely when you walk in, greeting people warmly, and going about your day with a positive attitude, caring about other people's feelings. See, you have just defined politeness in my view...a simple generosity towards mankind. Nice, in this context, has a specific meaning of being nice to a woman in order to gain her favor. It does not have to be materialistic. I wouldn't go out of my way to let a guy cut me in line for no reason or hail a cab for him, so I would not for a cute woman either. This is more an argument of linguistic semantics than actual meaning.
Woggle Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Nice should be the default but in a world where it is looked at as a weakness to be exploited by too many people you have to let others know you can't be walked on. It's sad that this is the world we live in but you have to do adapt to survive. I say don't show a woman your nice side until she has proven she actually deserves to be treated that way.
Pyro Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I say don't show a woman your nice side until she has proven she actually deserves to be treated that way. exactly. Treat her like garbage and if she is pathetic enough to still be around after she has proven herself then be kind to her. How about this? Treat her with kindness, respect, and consideration as long as she is doing the same in return.
Woggle Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 exactly. Treat her like garbage and if she is pathetic enough to still be around after she has proven herself then be kind to her. How about this? Treat her with kindness, respect, and consideration as long as she is doing the same in return. True but don't go the extra mile until she shows it is worth it and that goes for friends of the same gender as well.
Pyro Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 True but don't go the extra mile until she shows it is worth it and that goes for friends of the same gender as well. how do you tell if it is worth it without putting in any effort?
Woggle Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 how do you tell if it is worth it without putting in any effort? Got to know who a person is before hand.
zengirl Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 See, you have just defined politeness in my view...a simple generosity towards mankind. Nice, in this context, has a specific meaning of being nice to a woman in order to gain her favor. It does not have to be materialistic. I wouldn't go out of my way to let a guy cut me in line for no reason or hail a cab for him, so I would not for a cute woman either. This is more an argument of linguistic semantics than actual meaning. To me, polite is about "This is expected of me by society" and nice is about "This is the standard I hold myself to, based on how I feel about people." Very different. To me, politeness is begrudging niceness---it's like being nice because you feel you have to, not because you want and are choosing it as the best path for you. I don't usually buy random people things (except like homeless people food as charity). But I let people cut in line in front of me all the time, for instance, if I have a lot of things to buy and they just have one or two. I let people in front of me in traffic when they are signaling that they want to get in. I hold doors open for people, especially older people or people struggling with bags or children/pets. I pick up things people drop near me and hand it to them. To me, all of these are being nice---they are the things I taught my Kindergarteners to do as good citizens and the standards I still hold myself to in the world, and people who are like that on at least some level are the people I, personally, choose to associate with, rather than those who are only in this life for themselves and find small acts of kindness which cost nothing/very little in time, energy, and money to be "not worth it." YMMV. In my experience, being nicer and less begrudging of kindness towards others (and in statistics in studies!) makes you both happier and more likely to succeed at nearly everything in life, including human relationships. For what I think is a very obvious reason: it gets your brain in a place where you are more likely to move towards good things.
Wolf18 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) I'm the type of guy who will give someone the shirt off my back. I'd die for my friends, my loyalty knows no bounderies and I give til it hurts Yet this doesn't help me with women at all, and I'm still invisible. The women I've showed this side of me to, that I thought were worth it, generally were pretty much ingrates about it and started to expect my selflessness. Rarely do women return the favor unless they are sexually attracted to you, which is why I am only really nice to women I know want me. I don't do anything for women to like me (since I do this mostly for my male friends), but it does hurt that this doesn't make me more attractive as a partner to women. If I met a plain/average looking girl and she had an altruistic mindset, it would make her very attractive to me. Personality is actually the bonus, it's about what makes women horny as someone said already. A guy who looks good and has a ****ty or shallow personality is HOT, a guy who looks good and is a great human being is perfect. Edited June 3, 2011 by Wolf18
fishtaco Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 how do you tell if it is worth it without putting in any effort? You stay neutral, and develop positive history. That's the only thing that should count. Not how much you want to bang her, not how nice her rack is. Positive experience with her is the only thing that is worth anything. But being a guy you HAVE to initiate. So what I do is I'm willing to take a small step. Then I expect her to reciprocate. If she does not, I won't take another step. If she does something negative, I step back. If I step back far enough, I cut her off.
zengirl Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Of course, being nice is not sufficient to get a date with a gal. Being hot? Eh, depends on the gal, and your other various qualities. (I mean a hot, rude nitwit is still going to strike out a fair amount. But nobody's saying hotness doesn't help.) There is no ONE trait that will be sufficient to get dates, nor do all girls look for the same thing. There are some traits that are more useful in dating than others---I would say general sociability and beauty/hotness are useful tools for people of both genders, and that much can be done with simply those two tools in terms of "initial dates" (developing relationships requires more skills for sure). General sociability often translates to wit or charisma, and is perhaps even more useful than hotness. Being nice to random people (note: not selfless, not an idiot, not trying too hard, but just nice) is a great and easy way to develop sociability, as is simply talking to people and interacting with them without worrying what will come of it or trying to "get something" out of it. Thus, the best way to get dates is often to not be somebody who's falling all over themselves, trying to get dates (this is true of both genders). And those who are trying often mistakenly point out random qualities that fail them, when really, it's simply that they need to work more on developing general sociability and less on focusing on its results. Niceness is not the ONLY way to develop general sociability. Plenty of people are borderline jerks and generally sociable, male and female alike, but they also seem a lot less happy longrun whenever I meet them. Most of my friends would tell you I'm a kind person, and so would a lot of people who don't really know me but see me around, but I don't think anyone imagines I'm easy to "use" or bulldoze. Being assertive is a key component to being kind and nice longterm, as non-assertive nice folks often get burned out and blame their niceness for their problems. Really, it's that they lack a core sense of self and assertive properties. General sociability is not difficult to develop, but has been made more difficult by the general nature of society being so quick-fix. When you take a more holistic approach, fixing things in your life is actually a lot easier than trying to find some magic method of success. I know plenty of men and women who have great relationships and were able to get dates with others who are not gorgeous or jerks or overly accommodating or any particular trait. The trait they all share is general sociability.
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