26pointblue Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Thanks! There's a pretty great online community that has articles and women giving their experiences on the very same issues. It was what actually slapped me in the face and opened my eyes to the truth of my experiences and for me to uncover what was really going on: www.baggagereclaim.co.uk I will look into this- thank you so much. :-)
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 I will look into this- thank you so much. :-) Baggage reclaim went on my twitter feed last year and I read articles from time to time. Some good, common sense stuff.
silktricks Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 My opinion: Because it's too much work. I have spoken out against some of the sh*t that happens on this board, as have a few others, but i/we/you can't do it constantly, and pretty soon you (I) feel like an idiot repeating the same stuff over and over and over again (and then be accused of thinking the absolute opposite of what you've been saying....) . Yes, some affairs work out. No, an OW/OM is not some kind of lowlife. No, being a BS doesn't automatically mean you are clothed in white, etc.
donnamaybe Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Yes, some affairs work out. No, an OW/OM is not some kind of lowlife. No, being a BS doesn't automatically mean you are clothed in white, etc.Yes most affairs do NOT work out. No, being a BS doesn't automatically mean you are fat, ugly, frumpy, and never have sex with your spouse.
2sure Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I have empathy and good feelings for everyone here who comes here to explore and contribute. "OW" , "BS" etc hold no particular status for me, simply because each life is unique. But it simply does not take a lot of thought or looking for each person involved in any part of infidelity to realize how cliché and similar each role often is. In my experience as an OW and especially as an explorer and contributor here and in real life....there is no better example of hindsight not being recognized than most OW. While they are starting or in the midst of an affair...they just dont see it. Cant. There is almost no way for someone else to tell them that what they think they see, what they think they feel, what they think is happening...Probably isnt. But after its over, after they are truly done, nearly all slap themselves upside the head. And I mean that nicely and sincerely.
Beeotch Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I have empathy and good feelings for everyone here who comes here to explore and contribute. "OW" , "BS" etc hold no particular status for me, simply because each life is unique. But it simply does not take a lot of thought or looking for each person involved in any part of infidelity to realize how cliché and similar each role often is. In my experience as an OW and especially as an explorer and contributor here and in real life....there is no better example of hindsight not being recognized than most OW. While they are starting or in the midst of an affair...they just dont see it. Cant. There is almost no way for someone else to tell them that what they think they see, what they think they feel, what they think is happening...Probably isnt. But after its over, after they are truly done, nearly all slap themselves upside the head. And I mean that nicely and sincerely. Very true... My grandmother always says; "He who feels it knows it". I normally participate in the Break Up forum (which is what lead me to this site 2 years ago) and it is the same type of thing, where some folks get upset and inflamed when they bring their "unique breakup scenario" to the board, asking for advice, when really they just want people to validate what they already think. If you're not saying that yes you will get back together, yes these things are signs they want you, yes your love will overcome and things will be reconciled...then they don't want to hear and accuse you of "not understanding", "generalizing" etc. I was such a person too...and I realize that you leave people to learn for themselves. You share your advice and insights but you CAN'T make someone see anything. I think it may truly be impossible and a waste of time...so things have to run there natural course and come to a head for that individual. It's like when you're a teenager, you think you know everything and are confident in being young, invincible and less aware of harsh truths, no matter how smart....it's only through maturation and experience do you come to realize for yourself certain things that NO ONE could have told you before, because you wouldn't have listened. So I don't really get angry, although it is frustrating, because I realize we all behave like that sometimes and something learned through experience probably sticks better than "lecturing" or "preaching" anyway.
Owl Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Here's my thought...if you're surprised that you're seeing generalizations and moral judgements when posting on the internet about a subject that is as controversial and emotional as cheating and infidelity...you're pretty darned naive. It's the internet. You get what you paid for the advice/support you find on it. If you want to hear something different...there are millions of websites to be found. Odds are, someone somewhere is posting EXACTLY what you're looking for. They may charge you for it...dunno. But I'm just constantly amazed at people who come to this site thinking that they're getting professional support, or have an expectation that the responses they're going to get are going to be exactly what they want to hear, just because of the title of the forum or the name of the site. It's the internet. It's populated with representatives from all kinds of walks of life. People from various countries, different cultures, and often vastly different moral viewpoints. Generalizations and such occur because the majority of posters on this site share similar moral values/cultural references. The ones that don't like them are often posters from different cultures, or with different moral values to begin with. If someone comes here hoping for or expecting viewpoints that match their own...they're probably not coming here with realistic expectations. If this site doesn't match your expectations...either change your expectations or find another site. Expecting the rest of the people here to change to conform to your expectations is pretty unrealistic...IMHO.
silktricks Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Here's my thought...if you're surprised that you're seeing generalizations and moral judgements when posting on the internet about a subject that is as controversial and emotional as cheating and infidelity...you're pretty darned naive. It's the internet. You get what you paid for the advice/support you find on it. If you want to hear something different...there are millions of websites to be found. Odds are, someone somewhere is posting EXACTLY what you're looking for. They may charge you for it...dunno. But I'm just constantly amazed at people who come to this site thinking that they're getting professional support, or have an expectation that the responses they're going to get are going to be exactly what they want to hear, just because of the title of the forum or the name of the site. It's the internet. It's populated with representatives from all kinds of walks of life. People from various countries, different cultures, and often vastly different moral viewpoints. Generalizations and such occur because the majority of posters on this site share similar moral values/cultural references. The ones that don't like them are often posters from different cultures, or with different moral values to begin with. If someone comes here hoping for or expecting viewpoints that match their own...they're probably not coming here with realistic expectations. If this site doesn't match your expectations...either change your expectations or find another site. Expecting the rest of the people here to change to conform to your expectations is pretty unrealistic...IMHO. Oh Owl, you're so..... perfectly reasonable . (and spot on as usual)
fooled once Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Here's my thought...if you're surprised that you're seeing generalizations and moral judgements when posting on the internet about a subject that is as controversial and emotional as cheating and infidelity...you're pretty darned naive. It's the internet. You get what you paid for the advice/support you find on it. If you want to hear something different...there are millions of websites to be found. Odds are, someone somewhere is posting EXACTLY what you're looking for. They may charge you for it...dunno. But I'm just constantly amazed at people who come to this site thinking that they're getting professional support, or have an expectation that the responses they're going to get are going to be exactly what they want to hear, just because of the title of the forum or the name of the site. It's the internet. It's populated with representatives from all kinds of walks of life. People from various countries, different cultures, and often vastly different moral viewpoints. Generalizations and such occur because the majority of posters on this site share similar moral values/cultural references. The ones that don't like them are often posters from different cultures, or with different moral values to begin with. If someone comes here hoping for or expecting viewpoints that match their own...they're probably not coming here with realistic expectations. If this site doesn't match your expectations...either change your expectations or find another site. Expecting the rest of the people here to change to conform to your expectations is pretty unrealistic...IMHO. Owl, I love your posts and insights. And I agree completely with you!
Spark1111 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Wanted to clarify- I don't necessarily mean with just this post but with all your posts. It's like we're supposed to be put on a pedestal, why? Yeah there are generalizations to be made about everyone. BWs who stay with their cheating husbands. BWs who kick their cheating husbands to the curb. MMs who cheat. OWs who help them cheat. There are generalizations & per-formed judgments all around. And people try to escape them but a spade's a spade. There was just a poster talking about being unselfish & knowing her xMM has priorities that came before her. Well, she still helped him cheat which is hardly unselfish. A poster saying her MM is getting divorce. Same. A poster [me!] saying she was once happy when she could have what she wanted from her xMM but unhappy once she had to go back into hiding when her xMM's BW re-found out. Same. [! But I really did think I was different!] I agree with your introspection, 26 and here is why: In a triangulated relationship, the BS has to be demonized, or at least seriously lacking to give yourself permission to even engage in an affair! It helps one justify what you may normally feel is a serious breech of ethics; you minimize or actively dislike the BS; you feel, in your soul, that you would be a better steward of this poor MM; you would love and cherish him the way he deserves. This pity of him and disdain of her is a necessary component to fueling the continuation of an affair. NO one posts here that the wife or husband is a great person. You have already bought into the triangulation script and have concluded, it's okay to have this relationship that most of society frowns upon. You allow this belief to cloud your judgement, agree to the necessary secrecy and then show shock when you post here and the brickbats start arriving. I started a thread once on how would you feel to discover another OW/OM in your triangle, and the majority posted they would kick their MP to the curb immediately. Isn't that ironic? You could easily minimize the BS because you had bought the pity script and felt vaulted that you were saving this MP from a cold and loveless marriage with your true love, but to discover another OW/Om leaves many feeling betrayed? EXACTLY the same as when the BS discovers your existence???? If there's one thing I've realized, we really are all the same in that we are or were willing to help a man cheat on the woman he vowed to be faithful to, & we would PROBABLY all be crushed if he did the same thing to us. How am I over-generalizing with that statement? Unless it's some rare circumstance where the wife is truly okay with it or we would truly be okay with the guy cheating on us while claiming to be in a faithful / committed relationship with us, then we are truly all the same. No better or no worse. I do hope we can learn from it just as I believe an MM can learn from it. To me it is a testament of humanity that most of us OWs seem to learn from it. I can't say the same about MMs but they are not here to talk to us usually, so, I really don't know. Many a BS, upon the discovery of the existence of an OW/OM, if they start to dig deep, discover things they do not want to share on these boards; WSs trawling the waters for new OW/OM, chatting up old bf or gf from the past; inappropriate and flirty texts with co-workers, blah, blah, blah.... The affair is a symptom of what is broken or missing within the MAP, IMO. None of it is upright, honest, or good.
whichwayisup Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 It's the internet. It's populated with representatives from all kinds of walks of life. People from various countries, different cultures, and often vastly different moral viewpoints. I've said this before, but LS is no different than an OW walking into a room full of 200 people and announcing she's having an affair with a MM, and tells her story. Reaction is going to be all over the place. Some won't care, some will, some will be upset and judgemental, some will understand, some won't. It's always going to be a mixed reaction. Good, bad and in different. And, people have the right to feel the way they do reguarding an affair.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 I've said this before, but LS is no different than an OW walking into a room full of 200 people and announcing she's having an affair with a MM, and tells her story. Reaction is going to be all over the place. Some won't care, some will, some will be upset and judgemental, some will understand, some won't. It's always going to be a mixed reaction. Good, bad and in different. And, people have the right to feel the way they do reguarding an affair. If some of a 200 strong crowd decided to insult the OW and say extremely negative and stereotypical things about them, I'd like to think the OW would tell them where to get off. What I'm interested in is why she doesn't, and whether her self-image is so low at that point that she buys in to it all. Especially if she entered the room after seeing a sign above the door saying OW: Support.
betterdeal Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 What concerns me is the readiness to pass judgment based on flimsy hearsay that would be laughed out of any forensic precisely because it is utterly unreliable. The person who gives the information may, for example, have a severe guilt complex and be painting a damming picture of themselves when in fact the actual details are far more complex and dynamic. Reinforcing a guilt complex, low self-esteem &c. tends to not get people out of that state of mind, and that state of mind is often what gets them into unhealthy, joyless situations in the first place. That said, a bit of the nice cop, nasty cop routine can help some people. Given a poster who calls them out harshly and another who gently asks revealing questions may give them an avenue to express their-selves in ways they haven't been able to in the past, and that includes ignoring people who upset them.
OWoman Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 If some of a 200 strong crowd decided to insult the OW and say extremely negative and stereotypical things about them, I'd like to think the OW would tell them where to get off. What I'm interested in is why she doesn't, and whether her self-image is so low at that point that she buys in to it all. Especially if she entered the room after seeing a sign above the door saying OW: Support. ... and knew that everyone else in the room had signed the same contract she had before entering, pledging to treat other people in the room with civility and respect...
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 ... and knew that everyone else in the room had signed the same contract she had before entering, pledging to treat other people in the room with civility and respect... And when people do NOT treat others with civility here, they are put on lockdown or banned, as everyone is keenly aware.
OWoman Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 And when people do NOT treat others with civility here, they are put on lockdown or banned, as everyone is keenly aware. That requires someone to flag the offending posts so that the moderator can take the appropriate action. And given the current situation with moderation, that sometimes takes ages. As everyone is keenly aware.
Owl Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Well, I'd call it closer to walking into an open convention hall with thousands (or millions) of people in it, seeing a sign in a far corner that says something about OW, and walking over to the people standing underneath the sign and making said announcement. There can't be any expectation of a garauntee that any of those people will give her what she wants to hear. Not like walking into a room expecting to find 200 specialists all their to provide her with their professional expertise or support. No one checked their credentials (or hers, for that matter) at the door. Everyone walking in was informed of the expectation that they'd behave in a civil manner...but no one wants to face the realization that the subject matter is one that is highly emotionally charged and probably should require a good bit more formal moderation than the room assigned to discuss knitting techniques. Again...someone walking into that situation has the choice of looking around, deciding if this is the right "fit" or not, and taking whatever action they deem appropriate. Walking into the room, announcing themselves and their situation, and then demanding that the other 200 occupants either leave or should change some aspect of what they're doing there is a rather foolish thing to do.
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 That requires someone to flag the offending posts so that the moderator can take the appropriate action. And given the current situation with moderation, that sometimes takes ages. As everyone is keenly aware. I would think folks would also be keenly aware, especially certain folks, that something worth having is worth waiting for.
donnamaybe Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Walking into the room, announcing themselves and their situation, and then demanding that the other 200 occupants either leave or should change some aspect of what they're doing there is a rather foolish thing to do. Like shouting "Don't generalize, and don't announce your moral values!"
BB07 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Wow......so insightful and I can certainly relate. I like you Beeotch! I think that certain choices and behaviors have psychological underpinnings that may not be obvious, not even to the person engaging in it. I think being involved with unavailable people is a behavior and choice that when truly examined reveals a truth that is way deeper than something flippant like "You got caught up" or this is some "unique thing and you had to move heaven and earth to do it" or you so happen to meet you soul mate while he/she is married to someone else so you had "no choice". Speaking from experience, it is only NOW, years after the fact, when assessing my self, have I realized that I have a pattern of attracting and dating unavailable men. Every man I have been interested in has been unavailable in some capacity and yes I was an OW at one point. Up until now I thought nothing of it. I surely do not think of myself as a conniving person or some horrible excuse for a human, but I now realize I accepted certain things and played out certain behaviors for reasons that were not obvious to me until now. It didn't seem "that bad" and I sure spun it to suit my fancy, having no real idea that I was: rationalizing, justifying and minimizing the sordid truth to placate myself. I do not think that one should deem themselves worthless because of having affairs, but I think if one would really question the behaviors, the motive, why you stick around etc. you'll realize that there is more to it than meets the eye and there are usually issues of emotional unavailability, commitment phobia, self esteem issues and issues with setting healthy boundaries. I think the problem is though that when engaged in such behavior one is seemingly void of all objectivity and lives in a state of delusion. Not to be degrading, but this is really how the human mind works. Even for example, during breakups, we often delude ourselves and it is only when we come out of that state do we realize it and we're appalled that we truly felt fine and believed those things at the time and would have defended it to the death. Seeing the truth and digesting it is a HARD HARD thing and it is often only when one is forced through some tragedy or the fantasy completely caving in, that people see things as they are. I have lived in delusion about relationships and would have never thought I was living delusionally. I am an intelligent woman, I have a conscience, I try to do the right things, I thought I had healthy self-esteem, men are attracted to me, I have accomplished praiseworthy things etc. and that DID NOT exempt me from fooling myself or from playing out subconscious issues, completely unaware that they were issues. So it is not about you being inherently immoral, wicked, foolish, a whore etc. It runs deeper. Didn't mean to go so long but this is a passionate issue to me, as I am currently a part of a group of women who are beautiful and intelligent (all are college educated and many even have PhDs) who have been caught in unbecoming relationships with married, taken or otherwise unavailable men and we all never thought it would be us and realize there is no shame in it, but there needs to be an openness to realize and understand how you got to a point that you weren't proud of. In short: I do not believe engaging with married men is some variation of normal, healthy behavior. I do not believe one should be stoned like in Biblical times, but I do believe it should be called into question and the underpinnings should be teased out versus simply accepting it as some form of "alternative lifestyle choice" that is normal just shunned.
Beeotch Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Wow......so insightful and I can certainly relate. I like you Beeotch! Lol, thanks!
twinsmom Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 You can hate me all you want but I'm not being derisive or hypocritical when I point out that allk OWs and former OWs- myself included- have helped someone cheat on someone else. How in the world is that hypocritical? I don't know or care what your problem is with me & I will just agree to disagree with you. :-) yes I'm speaking as a former OW because that's where I'm coming from. Big deal. I don't "hate" anyone, nor do I have a problem with you. I was just pointing out that there are some OW's who were perfectly happy just a few weeks ago being the OW, who now seem to be deriding the ones who still are, and that it is coincidental that those same OW who were happy with their "situation" just a few short weeks ago no longer are, post D-day, when the MM seemingly chose his wife over them. No more, no less. Hey, I'm one of the ones who was not chosen. It hurt, and I'm still recovering from it. My criticism is for those who were happy being the OW just a few short weeks ago, before their MM chose their wife, who seem to have done a complete 180 to now criticizing the ones who are still in the same situation. My comments were not personal, just general. No, I wouldn't ever allow myself to be in the same situation again, and yes, I helped someone cheat on someone else, but I will never criticize or critique someone else for being in that situation, because I was. Sorry that I offended you.
Ms. Red Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I don't "hate" anyone, nor do I have a problem with you. I was just pointing out that there are some OW's who were perfectly happy just a few weeks ago being the OW, who now seem to be deriding the ones who still are, and that it is coincidental that those same OW who were happy with their "situation" just a few short weeks ago no longer are, post D-day, when the MM seemingly chose his wife over them. No more, no less. Hey, I'm one of the ones who was not chosen. It hurt, and I'm still recovering from it. My criticism is for those who were happy being the OW just a few short weeks ago, before their MM chose their wife, who seem to have done a complete 180 to now criticizing the ones who are still in the same situation. My comments were not personal, just general. No, I wouldn't ever allow myself to be in the same situation again, and yes, I helped someone cheat on someone else, but I will never criticize or critique someone else for being in that situation, because I was. Sorry that I offended you. You put this so well & I agree. I'd also like to add that some former OW are stuck in this criticism years down the line from the affair and even try to conceal the fact that they ever were an OW. And your last line I bolded, that's how I am. Thanks for putting that out here.
jthorne Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I'd also like to add that some former OW are stuck in this criticism years down the line from the affair and even try to conceal the fact that they ever were an OW. The desperate lengths people will go to to discredit others on this forum has sunk to a new low. It really says something.
donnamaybe Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) The desperate lengths people will go to to discredit others on this forum has sunk to a new low. It really says something. It says something alright! Fortunately I have a life, and I'm LOVING IT! "Generally" speaking, of course. Hmmm.... I'm in the mood to visit Santa "Monika." I'll see if my sweety wants to take a trip. Edited June 3, 2011 by donnamaybe
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