Silly_Girl Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Just reading a thread elsewhere on LS. Someone made - what I would call - a sweeping statement about why one member of the infidelity triangle behaves as they do. Two long-established, well-respected posters immediately demanded proof. Cut the poster down. Why doesn't that happen here? When posters use terms like 'pity' and 'wasted life' and 'desperate', why does no one call them out? Is it your belief deep down that being the OW renders one an 'in-valid' (to quote an old favourite movie of mine). OW seem to come here to take their medicine. I understand some reformed OW may wish to do so, but even so, there's none here I'd call pitiful, or worthless. Is the moral dilemma/consequence enough to cause you to question every aspect of your moral fibre? Are you now bad mothers? Sisters? Friends? Employees? And if a cheater is always a cheater (not my view) then the OW is always the OW.... so 'rOW' can't exist. I find it intriguing.
26pointblue Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I try not to generalize & to instead call things as I see them based on the poster & the situation. But here is something about ME that I feel is IN GENERAL true about MOST OWs. I believe cheating is wrong. Don't you? It goes against my morals. Does it not go against your morals? I would not like to have it done against me. Would you like to have it done against you? Yet I participated in it. I helped him cheat on someone. So I did something that went against my morals. Unless an OW thinks cheating is okay, one generalization to be made about her is that she has done or is doing something that goes against her morals or values. Yeah that is a generalization but it is usually true. I guess I don't see the problem. Silly Girl you act like everyone should think OWs are saints. Let's face it, we are far from saints. Let's admit that & get on with it already.
26pointblue Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Wanted to clarify- I don't necessarily mean with just this post but with all your posts. It's like we're supposed to be put on a pedestal, why? Yeah there are generalizations to be made about everyone. BWs who stay with their cheating husbands. BWs who kick their cheating husbands to the curb. MMs who cheat. OWs who help them cheat. There are generalizations & per-formed judgments all around. And people try to escape them but a spade's a spade. There was just a poster talking about being unselfish & knowing her xMM has priorities that came before her. Well, she still helped him cheat which is hardly unselfish. A poster saying her MM is getting divorce. Same. A poster [me!] saying she was once happy when she could have what she wanted from her xMM but unhappy once she had to go back into hiding when her xMM's BW re-found out. Same. [! But I really did think I was different!] If there's one thing I've realized, we really are all the same in that we are or were willing to help a man cheat on the woman he vowed to be faithful to, & we would PROBABLY all be crushed if he did the same thing to us. How am I over-generalizing with that statement? Unless it's some rare circumstance where the wife is truly okay with it or we would truly be okay with the guy cheating on us while claiming to be in a faithful / committed relationship with us, then we are truly all the same. No better or no worse. I do hope we can learn from it just as I believe an MM can learn from it. To me it is a testament of humanity that most of us OWs seem to learn from it. I can't say the same about MMs but they are not here to talk to us usually, so, I really don't know.
OldOnTheInside Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 What would you recommend posters do instead? And how often do the words 'pity', 'wasted life' and 'desperate' really come up here? Really, if you are dealing with a genuine troll, just ignore him/her. What's the difference between trolling and tough love in your eyes anyway? One of the only things we can do on LS is generalise. We don't live the lives of anyone else here, so we have to make assumptions, judgements and generalisations. Else we may as well not type anything at all. What else can we do?
Beeotch Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) I think that certain choices and behaviors have psychological underpinnings that may not be obvious, not even to the person engaging in it. I think being involved with unavailable people is a behavior and choice that when truly examined reveals a truth that is way deeper than something flippant like "You got caught up" or this is some "unique thing and you had to move heaven and earth to do it" or you so happen to meet you soul mate while he/she is married to someone else so you had "no choice". Speaking from experience, it is only NOW, years after the fact, when assessing my self, have I realized that I have a pattern of attracting and dating unavailable men. Every man I have been interested in has been unavailable in some capacity and yes I was an OW at one point. Up until now I thought nothing of it. I surely do not think of myself as a conniving person or some horrible excuse for a human, but I now realize I accepted certain things and played out certain behaviors for reasons that were not obvious to me until now. It didn't seem "that bad" and I sure spun it to suit my fancy, having no real idea that I was: rationalizing, justifying and minimizing the sordid truth to placate myself. I do not think that one should deem themselves worthless because of having affairs, but I think if one would really question the behaviors, the motive, why you stick around etc. you'll realize that there is more to it than meets the eye and there are usually issues of emotional unavailability, commitment phobia, self esteem issues and issues with setting healthy boundaries. I think the problem is though that when engaged in such behavior one is seemingly void of all objectivity and lives in a state of delusion. Not to be degrading, but this is really how the human mind works. Even for example, during breakups, we often delude ourselves and it is only when we come out of that state do we realize it and we're appalled that we truly felt fine and believed those things at the time and would have defended it to the death. Seeing the truth and digesting it is a HARD HARD thing and it is often only when one is forced through some tragedy or the fantasy completely caving in, that people see things as they are. I have lived in delusion about relationships and would have never thought I was living delusionally. I am an intelligent woman, I have a conscience, I try to do the right things, I thought I had healthy self-esteem, men are attracted to me, I have accomplished praiseworthy things etc. and that DID NOT exempt me from fooling myself or from playing out subconscious issues, completely unaware that they were issues. So it is not about you being inherently immoral, wicked, foolish, a whore etc. It runs deeper. Didn't mean to go so long but this is a passionate issue to me, as I am currently a part of a group of women who are beautiful and intelligent (all are college educated and many even have PhDs) who have been caught in unbecoming relationships with married, taken or otherwise unavailable men and we all never thought it would be us and realize there is no shame in it, but there needs to be an openness to realize and understand how you got to a point that you weren't proud of. In short: I do not believe engaging with married men is some variation of normal, healthy behavior. I do not believe one should be stoned like in Biblical times, but I do believe it should be called into question and the underpinnings should be teased out versus simply accepting it as some form of "alternative lifestyle choice" that is normal just shunned. Edited June 1, 2011 by Beeotch
twinsmom Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I've never thought that Silly Girl believes everyone that cheats is a saint. Perhaps I'm wrong.
26pointblue Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Wow, Beeotch, that was an awesome post. Exactly how I feel about it. I wish I could be part of this group you're in. That's exactly where I'm at . . . realizing the motivations, even sub-conscious ones, that got me here & striving to change so that I don't repeat these same patterns. Not just the affair but a lot of other things in my life. I think what you're talking about sounds very empowering for women. Thank you for sharing. Sorry Silly Girl for the slight t/j.
MorningCoffee Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 26B, I know, I know. It is astonishing to me that I, a faithful father and provider, and a doting and faithful husband in a long term marriage, in my widowhood became the OM to a MW. One reassurance that we humans commonly have grave human failings comes from St Paul who wrote something expressing his own frustrations that - a saint! -- "that which I do not wish to do, I do, and that which I do wish to do, I do not." Paraphrased. Not an excuse, an existential reality. Boggles the mind.
26pointblue Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I've never thought that Silly Girl believes everyone that cheats is a saint. Perhaps I'm wrong. I didn't say anything about her view on people who cheat. I'm talking about her view when it comes to OWs. And I was exaggerating when I said she thinks we're saints but I meant, along the same lines as Turn, that she seems to think we should be protected or insulated from criticism, & instead encouraged & congratulated. I don't get that. I never expected to be applauded for being an OW - I realized most people don't think that's cool. They just don't, because it isn't a cool thing to do, although we all have our own reasons. And I was also going to say that I never read where we were called worthless. Wasting our time? Yes. It's a waste of time to be with someone who is committed to someone else unless we like it that way [which I did at times]. We need to know we're not in it forever & to take steps to ensure we're not. I believe WWIU pointed this out to me when I first joined- that I needed to set a deadline for myself- & although I had a [correct] Feeling that a decision would be forced sooner than the deadline she suggested I set [i beloieve it was summer -- we didn't make it that long ;-/] I completely understood her point. That is not pitying me or calling me worthless, that is just telling me it's not smart to wait around indefinitely on someone who is not taking action to be with me. If an OW's MM does take action, cool. If not, get out. What is so wrong with saying that?? When I was here as a 'happy' OW I NEVER felt pitied by anyone I myself didn't pity back- people who had sadly been very very hurt by these situations & who were dealing with it [badly, IMO] by lashing out in anger & with unnecessary vitriol at me & other OWs. If an OW feels 'pitied' IMO there is a reason for that. I have only seen 2 self-proclaimed 'happy' OWs pitied by most people & both were either trolls or highly delusional. Who is being pitied for being a 'happy' OW? I just don't see it.
Beeotch Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Wow, Beeotch, that was an awesome post. Exactly how I feel about it. I wish I could be part of this group you're in. That's exactly where I'm at . . . realizing the motivations, even sub-conscious ones, that got me here & striving to change so that I don't repeat these same patterns. Not just the affair but a lot of other things in my life. I think what you're talking about sounds very empowering for women. Thank you for sharing. Sorry Silly Girl for the slight t/j. Thanks! There's a pretty great online community that has articles and women giving their experiences on the very same issues. It was what actually slapped me in the face and opened my eyes to the truth of my experiences and for me to uncover what was really going on: www.baggagereclaim.co.uk
SidLyon Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Just reading a thread elsewhere on LS. Someone made - what I would call - a sweeping statement about why one member of the infidelity triangle behaves as they do. Two long-established, well-respected posters immediately demanded proof. Cut the poster down. Why doesn't that happen here? .... Sweeping statements and generalisations are common everywhere. It's what people do both on this and other forums and IRL. Sometimes other posters ask for evidence, sometimes the poster is "cut down" as you say, and sometimes the statements are allowed to pass. Again it happens on all forums and IRL. [Just thought I'd add my own sweeping generalisations to the topic. If anyone calls me out on it then that's evidence that it does happen here after all. :bunny: ]
twinsmom Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 This is spoken from a FORMER OW, so that there is no misconception..It just seems that a couple (few) OTHER's are now speaking from a position of having been found out and no longer find themselves happily in the "other" position any more. You're someone who was perfectly happy to be in the OW/OM position until D-Day occurred, and he/she are no longer happy with the situation. Fair enough, but please don't deride people who are still in the situation, and don't act like you are so all-knowing..Geez..you were here a couple of weeks ago, and loving it..In fact, you wanted it! Now, when it has ended, through no action of your own, you hate it. And suddenly you're critical of others who are in the same situation you were once in. Lord, I hate hypocrites..
Beeotch Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 This is spoken from a FORMER OW, so that there is no misconception..It just seems that a couple (few) OTHER's are now speaking from a position of having been found out and no longer find themselves happily in the "other" position any more. You're someone who was perfectly happy to be in the OW/OM position until D-Day occurred, and he/she are no longer happy with the situation. Fair enough, but please don't deride people who are still in the situation, and don't act like you are so all-knowing..Geez..you were here a couple of weeks ago, and loving it..In fact, you wanted it! Now, when it has ended, through no action of your own, you hate it. And suddenly you're critical of others who are in the same situation you were once in. Lord, I hate hypocrites.. That may very well be part and parcel with being delusional and snapping out of it versus hypocrisy, which IMO would be you being in the same scenario but acting like you aren't. It makes sense that while engaged in it, you find no fault with it because you have built up that fantasy to be impenetrable but once it comes crashing down is when you see the reality then can be critical. Hindsight is always 20/20. I never defended my OW position to the death when I was in it, but I didn't have the perspective to judge it objectively, but my tune sure changed once I got out of it and could see it for what it was. I think that is normal and a product of you viewing it from a different vantage point (not being in it, not being delusional, outside of the fantasy) versus it being hypocritical. I do agree though that it seems hypocritical if you didn't make the effort to end it yourself and are only speaking badly about it because of bitterness that it ended at the hands of another....but I think even in that scenario, as I said in my earlier post, only sometimes through tragedy or things collapsing do you realize the truth. But only that individual can know if they have truly seen the "error in their ways" and have had an epiphany and are disgusted by their former situation or if they have learned nothing and are just sad and hurt 'cause it ended and would hurriedly do it again if given the chance. That is the marker of if one is being hypocritical or not, IMO.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 Silly Girl you act like everyone should think OWs are saints. No. No one is a saint. And neither am I pro cheating. Thanks for your posts 26.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 What would you recommend posters do instead? And how often do the words 'pity', 'wasted life' and 'desperate' really come up here? Really, if you are dealing with a genuine troll, just ignore him/her. What's the difference between trolling and tough love in your eyes anyway? One of the only things we can do on LS is generalise. We don't live the lives of anyone else here, so we have to make assumptions, judgements and generalisations. Else we may as well not type anything at all. What else can we do? OOTI, I'm not recommending at all. But I see a lot of intelligent, well-meaning, worthy people who either give themselves a thrashing or take it willingly. I'm curious, that's all. I am not of the school of thought that participating in an affair automatically means the person is 'broken' or 'not whole' or the terms above I mentioned. And no, not used by trolls. I'm trying to widen my horizons And the bolded, I think the generalisations happen naturally, and I understand the premise of that; but to my mind there's a difference between "on the whole, X, Y, Z tends to happen" (which I'll happily do, I know the score) and either this: "what happened to me IS what will happen you YOU", or worse, those who HAVEN'T been in the OP's position at all yet telling them they know better. Now that's fine, if folk want to post like that. With this thread I'm interested in why it's acceptable/welcome to those on the receiving end. And I'm not saying it shouldn't be acceptable/welcome, I'm just trying to understand.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 I do not think that one should deem themselves worthless because of having affairs, but I think if one would really question the behaviors, the motive, why you stick around etc. you'll realize that there is more to it than meets the eye and there are usually issues of emotional unavailability, commitment phobia, self esteem issues and issues with setting healthy boundaries. Thank you. I really did enjoy your post. And I like the para quoted the most. I got a lot out of counselling during my relationship, and it helpede understand me. Not the affair, or him, but me. I'm going to read your post again later.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 SG, you come across at times as being pretty frustrated that your relationship isn't praised as much as you seem to feel it should be and that you aren't congratulated as much as you seem to feel you should be. I don't want to praised or congratulated. Not in the slightest. And from my opening post you can see I wasn't discussing my experience or relationship. You appear sometimes to take criticism of other OW and their affairs, personally. Why is that? Not personally Turnstone, if it was personal it probably wouldn't p!$$ me off so much! Your affair ended in the MM leaving his wife and being with you, you are no longer the OW, I was pretty happy to see that happen, and I'm sure I'm not the only BS to feel that way, but it doesn't mean that the usual outcome of an affair is anything but for the OW to be hurt and yes, to have wasted her time and effort and love and sometimes money and worse, too! As I seem to remember, and please correct me, you ended your affair before the MM left his wife, as did many exOW who are now happily committed with the MM. You removed yourself as a choice to him. This is essentially what every OW is encouraged to do here. 'Wasted life' is, the vast majority of the time, very descriptive - as evidenced by the OW themselves - hardly a generalisation with no foundation. On a side note, I have never seen an OW called worthless or pitiful by anyone, would you give me a link to an example? I don't want to quote because I have been in trouble for that! But I'm on moderation because I saw red when a long-term respected poster stated the same old negatives about OW again, a couple of days ago. Those who post it may even join in, I don't know. I've only read the thread to your post. I see a lot of good work over here by OW or potential OW. My feeling is that, on the whole, they DO give a $h!t and are aware of their situation and trying to deal with it as best they can. So I get annoyed when sweeping - very negative - statements are made which I don't see as beneficial to any of the parties on the board.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 This is spoken from a FORMER OW, so that there is no misconception..It just seems that a couple (few) OTHER's are now speaking from a position of having been found out and no longer find themselves happily in the "other" position any more. You're someone who was perfectly happy to be in the OW/OM position until D-Day occurred, and he/she are no longer happy with the situation. Fair enough, but please don't deride people who are still in the situation, and don't act like you are so all-knowing..Geez..you were here a couple of weeks ago, and loving it..In fact, you wanted it! Now, when it has ended, through no action of your own, you hate it. And suddenly you're critical of others who are in the same situation you were once in. Lord, I hate hypocrites.. I get where you're coming from.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 I'm also not in agreement with the generalisation () that all OW are deluded during the A. Some, but not all. But perhaps that is why ex-OW and non-OW feel qualified to tell others that they're wrong (or right, or whatever) because they have experienced a watershed in THEIR life, or have not experienced those heated emotions, they assume - with good intention - they're well-placed to let a 'deluded' OW know the score. Stress does colour our view, but it is possible to be practical and make intelligent decisions when under pressure. Stress at work, a subject close to my heart right now. I WANT to tell them all to go play with the traffic, there's days I've been physically (and definitely emotionally) hindered by the upset and stress, but I take a step back, I think longer-term, I talk to friends, maybe to someone qualified to help, and I decide a course of action. Like with the relationship. I think there's lots who aren't deluded. Who can speak with remarkable perspective and awareness and have a real grip on the potential outcomes. Lots have stopped posting now, those OW often don't hang around. They either are done with the situation or they're not done but aren't prepared to return for the inevitable bashing.
OWoman Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Just reading a thread elsewhere on LS. Someone made - what I would call - a sweeping statement about why one member of the infidelity triangle behaves as they do. Two long-established, well-respected posters immediately demanded proof. Cut the poster down. Why doesn't that happen here? Because the generalisations made here fit with the comfortable stereotypes. As someone noted earlier in this thread, many (or most, even) posters view As as bad, and as contrary to their morals (there are some notable exceptions) and so those generalisations comfortably reinforce those familiar stereotypes which are consistent with that moral perspective, so they go unchallenged. To challenge them would be to call into question their underlying moral framework and accept that perhaps the unquestioned received wisdom may be vulnerable to valid criticism - and that's not a risk many people are prepared to take.
bentnotbroken Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Sweeping statements and generalisations are common everywhere. It's what people do both on this and other forums and IRL. Sometimes other posters ask for evidence, sometimes the poster is "cut down" as you say, and sometimes the statements are allowed to pass. Again it happens on all forums and IRL. [Just thought I'd add my own sweeping generalisations to the topic. If anyone calls me out on it then that's evidence that it does happen here after all. :bunny: ] Exactly. Go read the threads on weight issues. The generalizations are everywhere. The political forum, the parenting forum, the dating forum, the religious forum. There is nothing exclusive here. Life is people using heuristics to fill in the blanks. Generalizations are just that....based on the usual outcomes with exceptions to every thing.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 Exactly. Go read the threads on weight issues. The generalizations are everywhere. The political forum, the parenting forum, the dating forum, the religious forum. There is nothing exclusive here. Life is people using heuristics to fill in the blanks. Generalizations are just that....based on the usual outcomes with exceptions to every thing. Bent, I understand what you say, my query is more why those who are being 'tarred' by a brush that may not be fair to them seem happy for it to happen.
donnamaybe Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Generalizations are just that....based on the usual outcomes with exceptions to every thing.Yep. "...based on the usual outcomes..." So true in A situations. The "usual outcome" is that there is either a D day and the OW/OM gets kicked to the curb, or the OW/OM takes a stand and makes the MP decide, and the A ends. That, in what I have read here and elsewhere, is most definitely "the usual outcome." Yes, with a few exceptions.
jthorne Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I find it intriguing.What I find intriguing is why you have such a problem with it. Have you not ever walked into a situation and had someone make a snap judgement about you, simply based upon your dress or demeanor? Have you not ever seen or heard of someone doing something you find deplorable and not made decisions about their character based upon that situation? If someone, God forbid, hurt your child, wouldn't you make judgements about that person or what they did? I find it really interesting, because IME, those that typically have problems with generalizations and judgements of moral issues (not those of weight, dating etc as Bent described) are the ones who are acting purposely against the generalization. So why is that? If you feel you aren't doing anything wrong, and you are comfortable with your situation, why would it bother you?
26pointblue Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 This is spoken from a FORMER OW, so that there is no misconception..It just seems that a couple (few) OTHER's are now speaking from a position of having been found out and no longer find themselves happily in the "other" position any more. You're someone who was perfectly happy to be in the OW/OM position until D-Day occurred, and he/she are no longer happy with the situation. Fair enough, but please don't deride people who are still in the situation, and don't act like you are so all-knowing..Geez..you were here a couple of weeks ago, and loving it..In fact, you wanted it! Now, when it has ended, through no action of your own, you hate it. And suddenly you're critical of others who are in the same situation you were once in. Lord, I hate hypocrites.. You can hate me all you want but I'm not being derisive or hypocritical when I point out that allk OWs and former OWs- myself included- have helped someone cheat on someone else. How in the world is that hypocritical? I don't know or care what your problem is with me & I will just agree to disagree with you. :-) yes I'm speaking as a former OW because that's where I'm coming from. Big deal.
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