JungleLover Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 This so-called "radical abrupt overhaul" has actually been going on for decades, though it may have been hard to notice from Mom's Basement. Going dutch is hardly considered "radical" these days, although in some areas and among certain demographic groups, habitual adherence to outdated behavioural norms is still strong. It is true that some women still expect to be "taken care of". From my experience, most do not. You are free to date women who fall in the former category. I personally have no interest in dating such women. I don't think that makes me a radical, though you are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. We live in a period of transition. Some people are more willing to embrace change than others. It's not uncommon for people like yourself to resist change and look up to outdated social conventions as a source of comfort. But despite your protestations, it is clear that the concept of "courting" is a product of a bygone era that makes little sense in today's society. It is already on its last legs and will disappear within a generation. Just look at the 25 and under demographic: young people hardly even go on dates anymore. They "hang out". It's a different world out there, pops You're missing the whole point. The dude asked her to pay half the bill once the bill arrived at the table. That is sh**ty. Only a broke teenager would think that this is ok. It's ok to go dutch but you can't wait until the waiter brings the bill and then spring it on someone that you are going dutch.
Mme. Chaucer Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Just look at the 25 and under demographic: young people hardly even go on dates anymore. They "hang out". It's a different world out there, pops I KNOW! When my daughter was in 6th grade, she came home and told me about how Nicole was "going out" with Kevin. I was bemused. "Going out"? Where were they going? I guess this phase carries on into the twenties for some of you?
Author SingVoice Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 You're missing the whole point. The dude asked her to pay half the bill once the bill arrived at the table. That is sh**ty. Only a broke teenager would think that this is ok. It's ok to go dutch but you can't wait until the waiter brings the bill and then spring it on someone that you are going dutch. Hmm...actually that's something I hadn't thought about. Since he had established a pattern of paying...was it rude to then ask me to split it once the bill came? Is that something that you should mention BEFORE the date? Interesting...any other thoughts on this?
Feelsgoodman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 That's daddy to you. I thought I told you that you were dismissed. Thinking is clearly not your forte Give it a rest already.
JungleLover Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Hmm...actually that's something I hadn't thought about. Since he had established a pattern of paying...was it rude to then ask me to split it once the bill came? Is that something that you should mention BEFORE the date? Interesting...any other thoughts on this? I think it was rude. If he was paying and all of a sudden hit you with the dutch thing at the last second, it is sh**ty. How did he know if you only had a few bucks left in your pocket until your next pay check? You may have even declined the date due to financial issues if you had known beforehand that you would have to pay for half of the expenses. I agree and think you should establish who is paying right when the date is being made. I usually tell my date that it is my treat or it can be easily assumed that I would pay for a date through my words when setting it up. If she decides that she wants to pay for some of it, I will let her.
zengirl Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Eh, it depends on how awkward it feels, and a lot of other factors. I don't think he was "wrong" but I could see it feeling a little bit odd/being a red flag if it felt awkward. The truth is, a guy who's super into you isn't going to risk awkwardness for $20 (nor will a girl, but social norms suggest the fellow pays unless the gal offers in the U.S, so the impetus at that point was on him, socially speaking, whether that's "right" or not, and I understand perhaps it isn't), and that would be my only judgment, if it seemed like the money was really more important to him than impressing you. Unless he's a very unusual sort of man. There are exceptions. But most of the time, if a guy is into you, that stuff just doesn't even factor in or become a thought. This is what my male friends tell me and what I've experienced (my dating pool, if it matters: 25-35 year olds; I'm 26; I live in the American South and date people who are generally pretty liberal, educated, and the like). However, I don't think he did anything "wrong." I can see why it'd get you wondering, still.
Author SingVoice Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 It's just odd because the date was going just like every other date....fantastically! He was super affectionate....really funny...we had great conversation. He even told me he really likes me. It's not as if something happened or the date was a dud and then he asked me to pay.
Sabali Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Thinking is clearly not your forte Give it a rest already. Thinking is not my forte? Lol. If you only knew what I did for a living... No, son, I just have a saying that I strongly believe in: It is waste of time arguing with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. I give up. You beat me!
Sanman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Perhaps he read the last thread on LS about this where the women suggested guys just ask the women to split the bill instead of complaining! He probably wanted to treat you to the first few dates, but not continue th pattern. The fact that you guys discussed this before the bill came probably prompted him to ask. As far as I am concerned, bringing up the check issues ahead of time is even more awkward that than when the bill comes as it seems like that is all that is on your mind. She could charge it even if she had no cash. When I go out with friends I expect to split a bill and I bring cash even if a woman offered to treat me. I don't find this to be a big deal. Sabali, I split checks all the time and I have no problem getting women. In fact, one girl I dated for a few months complained that I did not let her pay during the first 3 dates.
JungleLover Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 He probably wanted to treat you to the first few dates, but not continue th pattern. The fact that you guys discussed this before the bill came probably prompted him to ask. As far as I am concerned, bringing up the check issues ahead of time is even more awkward that than when the bill comes as it seems like that is all that is on your mind. She could charge it even if she had no cash. When I go out with friends I expect to split a bill and I bring cash even if a woman offered to treat me. I don't find this to be a big deal. What's so awkward about saying lets go out to dinner, my treat? Also, I don't assume that everyone has a credit card or can afford to use it. Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with going dutch but when it comes to money, I wouldn't spring a bill on someone at the last second or assume they will pay it just like I do not want someone asking me out somewhere and assume I am paying if we are not in a relationship.
Sanman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 What's so awkward about saying lets go out to dinner, my treat? Also, I don't assume that everyone has a credit card or can afford to use it. Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with going dutch but when it comes to money, I wouldn't spring a bill on someone at the last second or assume they will pay it just like I do not want someone asking me out somewhere and assume I am paying if we are not in a relationship. And I suppose saying let's get dinner somtime and you're paying half will go over equally well?
thatone Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 the obvious solution to all of this bullsh*t is it's easier as a man to just expect to pay for everything, which is a helluva lot easier than these arguments and awkward situations are. if you disagree, you need a better job.
JungleLover Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 And I suppose saying let's get dinner somtime and you're paying half will go over equally well? Once again, there is nothing wrong with going dutch. I can't speak with how it will go over with every woman but I just don't think there should be surprises when the bill comes. I am sure that will no got over well many times. This is not only for dating. I think this applies in any situation. I remember when a group of friends and I went out to dinner some years back when I was back in college. I worked insane hours at my job but still had trouble making ends meet. One of my buddies asked me to join him and some of my other friends and associates out for dinner at this moderately priced restaurant. I told my buddy that my money was really tight but he told me that I could just order some of the cheaper things on the menu. He persuaded me to go by pointing out that a woman was going also who I had a mutual attraction with. After much pleading from him, I gave in. At the end of our meal, the check came and one of our associates piped up and told everyone that we should all split the bill and pay for two of our friends who had went out with us that night because their birthday was coming up. Those people began thanking him for the gesture. All of a sudden, everyone started pulling out extra cash and throwing it on the table to pay for their bill. It was an awkward situation for me because I didn't have much cash to begin with and I was under the spotlight and felt pressured to pay. Not being the one to make a long speech at the table about my financial situation, I pulled out some of my remaining dollars to help pay for the two friends bill but I was cursing under my breath at the guy who sprung that idea on everyone once that bill came. If I knew that I would have to pay for someone else, I would have just declined to go out that night because I couldn't afford the extra expenses of that bill. It's just inconsiderate to do something like that.
Mike B. Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 the obvious solution to all of this bullsh*t is it's easier as a man to just expect to pay for everything, which is a helluva lot easier than these arguments and awkward situations are. if you disagree, you need a better job. I am with you on this and I definitely didn't grow up in the 50s.
thatone Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 I am with you on this and I definitely didn't grow up in the 50s. neither me, i was born in the mid 70s. if i don't have the money to do something, i don't do it. this is a simple concept. i don't know why people think they can have so much without the means of paying for it. hell, i'd like to have a private jet, but guess what, i don't have that kinda cash so i'm not gonna get a jet. it's as simple as that. if i didn't have enough money to pay for dinners and drinks i wouldn't see a lot of dates either. this isn't rocket science.
Mike B. Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 neither me, i was born in the mid 70s. if i don't have the money to do something, i don't do it. this is a simple concept. i don't know why people think they can have so much without the means of paying for it. hell, i'd like to have a private jet, but guess what, i don't have that kinda cash so i'm not gonna get a jet. it's as simple as that. if i didn't have enough money to pay for dinners and drinks i wouldn't see a lot of dates either. this isn't rocket science. I grew up in the 70s as well. I agree with every word you said. If you can't pay, you can't play. It's a simple concept. If you're too broke to pay for your dates, you shouldn't be dating. You too broke or having trouble tipping the waitress, eat at home. You too broke to take care of your kids, don't have any. How is this stuff even an argument?
Feelsgoodman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 neither me, i was born in the mid 70s. if i don't have the money to do something, i don't do it. this is a simple concept. i don't know why people think they can have so much without the means of paying for it. hell, i'd like to have a private jet, but guess what, i don't have that kinda cash so i'm not gonna get a jet. it's as simple as that. if i didn't have enough money to pay for dinners and drinks i wouldn't see a lot of dates either. this isn't rocket science. See, I really don't understand this mindset at all. This is not a matter of being able to afford but rather of spending priorities. Let's say I can afford to take women out on dates and pay for everything. But I'm also not a billionaire who lights cigars with hundred dollar bills and can afford to throw money away. So when I date women and pay for everything, my standard of living takes a hit. If we went dutch, I'd be able to afford a nicer car, or go on vacation more often, or pay off my mortgage/student loans faster. So why should I spend my money on women instead of spending it on myself?? If we lived back in the 50s and most women didn't have jobs, I could understand. But today, when women work and usually make as much money as men do, why should I be making sacrifices while she's getting a free ride? Without saying falling back on the default argument and saying that this is how things have always been done, can you please explain the logic of such behaviour?
carhill Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 The OP wrote in her original post that she is unaware of the man's financial situation. It also sounds like they had a fairly modest dinner for their first dinner date, at least for ChiTown (IIRC) and his suggestion to split the cost caught her off-guard. OP, do you like dating this man? Absent this one incident, would you continue to date him? Is your feeling positive or negative? Go with that and, if positive, no harm in straightforward communication, as I suggested upthread. He was straightforward about suggesting you split the bill. Match his style. He should be comfortable with that.
Sanman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) neither me, i was born in the mid 70s. if i don't have the money to do something, i don't do it. this is a simple concept. i don't know why people think they can have so much without the means of paying for it. hell, i'd like to have a private jet, but guess what, i don't have that kinda cash so i'm not gonna get a jet. it's as simple as that. if i didn't have enough money to pay for dinners and drinks i wouldn't see a lot of dates either. this isn't rocket science. I grew up in the 70s as well. I agree with every word you said. If you can't pay, you can't play. It's a simple concept. I am an 80's baby and grew up in the 90's. So are the women I date and I never have to bring up going dutch beforehand. While I will pay for a date to avoid an awkward situation, I agree with Feelsgoodman about not wanting to take a hit in standard of living. Then again, many of the guys I know are in their late 20's and really have never "dated". We usually hang out in groups, house parties, etc, and they see the same people until they hook up and are together. I taken several women out, who were in their mid twenties, who have never been on a traditional date. The concept of traditional dating/courting rather than two people getting to know each other on equal terms and deciding to go out seems rather outdated to me. As for the get a better job comment...yeah, I'll do that as the economy is just wonderful now. Carhill, this was not a first date. He already treated her to 2-3 dates. This was a 4th date if I am not mistaken and it did not seem too expensive. Edited May 31, 2011 by Sanman
Mrlonelyone Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 As for who should pay the rule ought to be whoever does the asking out. The one who ask suggest going out. The one who ask chooses the place and activity therefore the price range. The one who ask has all the power, so no "taxation" without representation. If he did the asking out he should pay. The same goes if the woman does the asking out. It would be rude, after all, to ask someone out to the Restaurant at the top of the Hancock building... when all they can afford is a Maxwell Street Polish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish,_Pork_Chop_%26_Onions.JPG Mm Mmm good.
Mike B. Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 The role as a man can never be outdated. No matter what they are calling it these days as far as hanging out or whatever. The concept is the same. A man is hooking up with a woman. Being born in the 70s is not far from being born in the 80s and men born in the 70s do date women born in the 80s too. You have to man up and pay for your dates. If you can't pay for your dates then you lose out to those who can. It's survival of the fittest. Alpha male beats out beta male. Alpha male shows that he is a provider and can feed his family. Beta male stands with his mouth open, points a finger towards the gaping whole, and says feed me. We should be trying to hold onto to our roles as men, not ditch them.
Mrlonelyone Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 The role as a man can never be outdated. No matter what they are calling it these days as far as hanging out or whatever. The concept is the same. A man is hooking up with a woman. Being born in the 70s is not far from being born in the 80s and men born in the 70s do date women born in the 80s too. You have to man up and pay for your dates. If you can't pay for your dates then you lose out to those who can. It's survival of the fittest. Alpha male beats out beta male. Alpha male shows that he is a provider and can feed his family. Beta male stands with his mouth open, points a finger towards the gaping whole, and says feed me. We should be trying to hold onto to our roles as men, not ditch them. Singvoice. While I certainly don't agree with Mike B's chest thumping and have shown time and again that the whole Alpha male Beta Male concept as he's applying it is bunk*... Allot of men do think on some level the way he does. If your current BF also thinks like him then the prognosis is not good. "Alpha males" also date women younger than them who they have more resources than and they can be the big man with. *IT comes from the study of wolves and the wolf biologist who coined the term now says that in the wild a wolf pack is nothing more than an extended family of wolves the Alpha being the oldest male... "grandfather".... not necsssarily the biggest bully of the bunch.
Sanman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) The role as a man can never be outdated. No matter what they are calling it these days as far as hanging out or whatever. The concept is the same. A man is hooking up with a woman. Being born in the 70s is not far from being born in the 80s and men born in the 70s do date women born in the 80s too. You have to man up and pay for your dates. If you can't pay for your dates then you lose out to those who can. It's survival of the fittest. Alpha male beats out beta male. Alpha male shows that he is a provider and can feed his family. Beta male stands with his mouth open, points a finger towards the gaping whole, and says feed me. We should be trying to hold onto to our roles as men, not ditch them. I'm amused at this assertion as I usually have no less than 3 women interested in me at any given time and I usually don't have to pay for their company. However, more power to you if you want to do so. You take her out to a nice dinner and then she can come out and party with my friends and I afterward. She'll still end up in my bed in the morning. Edited May 31, 2011 by Sanman
Sanman Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 As for who should pay the rule ought to be whoever does the asking out. The one who ask suggest going out. The one who ask chooses the place and activity therefore the price range. The one who ask has all the power, so no "taxation" without representation. If he did the asking out he should pay. The same goes if the woman does the asking out. It would be rude, after all, to ask someone out to the Restaurant at the top of the Hancock building... when all they can afford is a Maxwell Street Polish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish,_Pork_Chop_%26_Onions.JPG Mm Mmm good. I have no problem with this assertion. However, I rarely ask a woman out without getting some input from her. So, if I ask her out but she suggests the restaurant she wants to try and I agree....who should pay?
thatone Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 You take her out to a nice dinner and then she can come out and party with my friends and I afterward. She'll still end up in my bed in the morning. we're not interested in those who would prefer you and your broke friends. we don't spend money on women who aren't classy enough to deserve it. and when you and your broke friends get a few years on you, you'll find the fish stop biting for someone unable to get by without a loan from mom every few weeks. and the last time i checked, it doesn't take a room full of tag alongs to entertain a woman.
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