don't judge me

[JaneyAmazed]

Yeah, MikeRogers knows tory very well. 'His' posting style mimics tory's too well and too often.

 

I hate judging people and usually give the benefit of the doubt, but I noticed this right away. It sounds like someone having a conversation with herself. If that helps her though sort out her feelings, more power to her.

[Torytorytory]

I hate judging people and usually give the benefit of the doubt, but I noticed this right away. It sounds like someone having a conversation with herself. If that helps her though sort out her feelings, more power to her.

 

LOL, if alls it took was for me to sit here and talk to myself, I would do it all day without being on a message board. I can assure you, I am not Mike, I have no clue who he is. I'm wondering if he'll be back . . .

[trinity1]

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.

I'm crying.

 

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.

Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday.

Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long.

I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.

I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

 

Mister City Policeman sitting

Pretty little policemen in a row.

See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, see how they run.

I'm crying, I'm crying.

I'm crying, I'm crying."

[White Flower]

Hey Kariva, are you going to live your life for everyone elses enjoyment, or are you going to live your life for your enjoyment? Think hard about that one. You lived your life for everyone else for at least 20 years, i think its about time for you to live for yourself now, and damn anyone who doesnt support you in that. Find some new friends.

 

Welcome to LS Kariva. I haven't yet read the whole thread, but I promise I will.

 

I don't know how you found this place, but I truly hope you find support. I like the quote above and would suggest you surround yourself with people who will support YOU, and not some idealized Christian family value. People who are stuck in THAT fog have an even harder time getting out than APs do from As. Take it from someone who lived a life very much like yours...leadership at Church, 25 year M, and an A with a MM who pursued an unhappy woman.

 

Now, I've got to finish reading this thread...

[White Flower]

...although the mods have seldom hesitated to delete whole offending posts, so it's hard to imagine they would go to the effort to ban someone for posting a searchable Tweet, yet be too lazy to press the "delete" button in their moderation control panel while it's right there in front of them, leaving the searchable Tweet in place...

 

Everybody who is jumping on the OP's supposed "inconsistencies" and pounding the dead hyena with old bones... The comment about "can you imagine if his wife found out" was made in a separate context than her currently-ended EA. She had originally slipped this comment in:

 

 

Then, everybody told her what a bad idea that would be, and she eventually commented that she agreed it would be a bad idea:

 

 

I believe she's talking her about an imagined affair she might have with a non-specific "him", which makes this comment - taken out of context by the troll-bashers - consistent with her narrative.

 

As for the "inconsistency" between saying that everyone loves her husband, but then claiming he could be abusive... Do we know nothing about the "culture" of abuse, about the cycles of abuse that are sometimes passed down generation by generation, about the way bystanders and participants alike will make excuses and rationalizations around abusive behavior? Especially in a highly religious context where the man is king, and breaking a marriage for almost any reason is anathema? Do we really not get this?

 

The point is, that if we err on the side of aggression in this need to drive absolutely every "troll" away, then we will undoubtedly end up beating up some people in real need, who are confused, who are unfamiliar with the culture of online forums, who post one or two confusing details in weird context that someone will miss, and then the OP gets defensive when attacked (big surprise), which the bashers take as proof they are trolls, and the whole cycle is complete...

 

If a troll offends you, why not just walk away? Report it to a mod, if you must. Why take it so personally? If you are offended by your time being wasted, fine, don't waste it any more - just walk away.

 

It's been a long time Trimmer. How have you been?

 

You've just posted everything I wanted to say only better, so thank you for making my job easier. I'll be 'trolling' for your posts from now on so I can quote them. You're always a valuable source of good reasoning.

 

Best,

WF.

Edited June 3, 2011 by White Flower
Typo

[White Flower]

Why do I feel like I'm the bad guy in this when it was both of us?!

 

Because you are honest enough (and brave enough) to share your heart and your innocent nature on an open forum meant to be supportive of OP, and the overwhelming responses on your thread are coming from those who have no real experience on the subject. It didn't used to be this way.

 

And your xMM isn't here to take the bashing. Sadly, most of them are too cowardly to post here, and when they're brave enough to show up they usually get chased off; again, because it is not the support forum it started out to be.

 

LS needs more mods, I don't blame the one and only mod for being overwhelmed here.

[White Flower]

 

So, where does Kariva go from here? Just leave MM wife in shambles? MM's kids too?

OK, I read the whole thread as promised. Kariva is now Tory, and MikeRogers is overly invested in Tory's story. The dialogue between Tory and herself is far-fetched and I don't see similar writing styles. Both posters being Christian does not qualify as them having 'similar posting styles'.

 

The above quote does not sit well with me. It puts all the blame on the OW for the MM's broken vows, and it's even questionable that vows were broken. It gives the OW way too much credit, too much power. Look, HE was M, he owed his W fidelity, his contract was with his W; OW has no contract with the W, and she owes her nothing. Tory, if you're still reading here, let xMM make whatever his W needs up to her because this is not your issue.

 

I'm thinking that Mr. Rogers is either your H and so desperately wants you to feel very guilty about this so you won't ever contemplate an EA again, or it's someone in MM's camp that wants to protect that side. I don't usually jump to these conclusions, and I really hope I'm wrong, but his overwhelming interest in the specifics of your story, along with the focus on <displaced> guilt, concerns me.

 

I hope your head is feeling better Tory, and I hope you heal quickly from the loss of a short and mostly uneventful EA that caused you to contemplate life as you know it. At least it wasn't six years of deep-rooted love filled with countless beautiful memories all vanished with no explanation. <not necessessarily discussing myself here>.

 

Food for thought: most of us who have had IC after A are told, 'At least you discovered there is something better for you out there. Now that you've tasted it, are you motivated to improve your life, or are you going to be happy with the status quo?'

[Torytorytory]

Welcome to LS Kariva. I haven't yet read the whole thread, but I promise I will.

 

I don't know how you found this place, but I truly hope you find support. I like the quote above and would suggest you surround yourself with people who will support YOU, and not some idealized Christian family value. People who are stuck in THAT fog have an even harder time getting out than APs do from As. Take it from someone who lived a life very much like yours...leadership at Church, 25 year M, and an A with a MM who pursued an unhappy woman.

 

Now, I've got to finish reading this thread...

 

Really? Then you know exactly where I'm coming from. It's my life and if you get a divorce or leave, no matter what, you are the bad person. I only have a few friends and they're in my church. I'm hoping I make more friends when I go back to school. Other than that, I don't even know where to meet them. I do go away each year to a photography seminar for a week and that's the only place where I feel like I can actually be "me" and where I have lots of fun just being away from it all. I do appreciate all of your input and insight.

 

I'm going to try to make changes, but it won't happen overnight.

[Torytorytory]

OK,

Food for thought: most of us who have had IC after A are told, 'At least you discovered there is something better for you out there. Now that you've tasted it, are you motivated to improve your life, or are you going to be happy with the status quo?'

 

I believe that is the biggest thing I've gained here. Let me explain something. About 2 years ago, I sat at a seminar with a person. Somebody asked us both how our marriages were after being married so long. At the same exact time, both of us said they were horrible. We then looked at each other like woah, that was weird. That was when I first started looking into things and my marriage.

 

It was then that I started begging my h to get counseling and to try to better things. He has changed "kind of" but still slips into his old ways. He refuses to get any kind of counseling.

 

I was reading marriagebuilders yesterday and one of the things it said was you need to spend 15 hours a week of quality time with your spouse. I was like woah 15 hours??? We barely spend 15 min of quality time together. I talked to him the other day about doing a hobby together so he wants me to take golf lessons to golf with him. I tried that about 5 years ago for a whole year and honestly, I hate golf. Why should I have to do something he wants me to??? Why can't we find a new hobby or do something we both like? I wanted to take swing dance lessons a few years ago and he said "no way". The only hobbies he lives for are golf and biking which he wants me to do with him. Why should I??? Why can't he ever do anything I want to??? We have nothing in common anymore. When I try to sit down at the table to talk to him, he is reading the paper and doesn't pay a bit of attention to anything I say.

 

2 years ago was when I really started thinking about if I want to spend the rest of my life like this. Do I? NO! 2 of my kids are getting married this year so I need to wait til their weddings are over and then h and I are supposed to go on a cruise for our 25th anniversary . . . but, by then I'll be in school and around different people than I am now.

 

The work I do at my church is mainly with technology, so I am really not around any people ever. My h travels 80% of the time with his job. I'm alone alot. Do I want to spend the rest of my life alone? NO!

 

It's just really tough to take the first steps . . . basically, I live in a nice home and have great pets that I care for. I don't ever know where I would go. My family is not from here so I don't have any family support here.

 

Does this make sense?

[Torytorytory]

On another note, how do I find a good counselor? I want to find an unbiased one. If I go through the church or to a Christian counselor, I know I'll hear the same thing I've heard for years. That there are only a couple reasons you are allowed to leave your spouse.

 

Yet, I don't want to find one who is prodivorce. Any ideas?

[Torytorytory]

Ok nevermind on the last post. I've contacted a group to see if I can get an appt.

[JaneyAmazed]

On another note, how do I find a good counselor? I want to find an unbiased one. If I go through the church or to a Christian counselor, I know I'll hear the same thing I've heard for years. That there are only a couple reasons you are allowed to leave your spouse.

 

Yet, I don't want to find one who is prodivorce. Any ideas?

 

I am a Christian too, and I would be very careful about getting a Christian counselor. My mom went to one post-affair (she was the BS) and the first thing the counselor said was "Just so you know, I never support or encourage divorce." Christian counselors mean well, but some of them have a very black and white view of things.

 

Since you are a Christian, I thought this might help you. I was reading something today from "My Utmost for His Highest" that hit home for me and it might help you too:

 

When we are in an unhealthy condition either physically or emotionally, we always look for the thrills in life. In our physical life this leads to couterfeit the work of the Holy Spirit; in our emotional life it leads to obsessions and to the destruction of our morality; and in our spiritual life, if we insist on pursuing only thrills, on mounting up "with wings like eagles," it will result in the destruction of our spirituality.

 

 

I am living proof that this is true. I became obsessed with excitement, the thrill of another man... and it certaintly lead to the destruction of my morality and spirituality.

 

After that it goes on to say...

 

Our problems arise when we refuse to place our trust in the reality of His presence.

 

I hope this helps you a little.

[White Flower]

I believe that is the biggest thing I've gained here. Let me explain something. About 2 years ago, I sat at a seminar with a person. Somebody asked us both how our marriages were after being married so long. At the same exact time, both of us said they were horrible. We then looked at each other like woah, that was weird. That was when I first started looking into things and my marriage.

 

It was then that I started begging my h to get counseling and to try to better things. He has changed "kind of" but still slips into his old ways. He refuses to get any kind of counseling.

 

I was reading marriagebuilders yesterday and one of the things it said was you need to spend 15 hours a week of quality time with your spouse. I was like woah 15 hours??? We barely spend 15 min of quality time together. I talked to him the other day about doing a hobby together so he wants me to take golf lessons to golf with him. I tried that about 5 years ago for a whole year and honestly, I hate golf. Why should I have to do something he wants me to??? Why can't we find a new hobby or do something we both like? I wanted to take swing dance lessons a few years ago and he said "no way". The only hobbies he lives for are golf and biking which he wants me to do with him. Why should I??? Why can't he ever do anything I want to??? We have nothing in common anymore. When I try to sit down at the table to talk to him, he is reading the paper and doesn't pay a bit of attention to anything I say.

 

2 years ago was when I really started thinking about if I want to spend the rest of my life like this. Do I? NO! 2 of my kids are getting married this year so I need to wait til their weddings are over and then h and I are supposed to go on a cruise for our 25th anniversary . . . but, by then I'll be in school and around different people than I am now.

 

The work I do at my church is mainly with technology, so I am really not around any people ever. My h travels 80% of the time with his job. I'm alone alot. Do I want to spend the rest of my life alone? NO!

 

It's just really tough to take the first steps . . . basically, I live in a nice home and have great pets that I care for. I don't ever know where I would go. My family is not from here so I don't have any family support here.

 

Does this make sense?

It makes perfect sense Tory. You sound like me a few years ago. And when I came to LS I would preach to anyone who would listen that 5 minutes spent with MM brought more love, excitement, and LIFE to me than 25 years with my H. I still stand by that statement.

 

I'm glad you don't want a Christian counselor. I tried that once, way back when too, for depression that I experienced as a young mother. I had no idea that I was overwhelmed with doing everything, not getting proper credit for it, and not getting any other support from the man I loved very deeply at the time, my H. They have an objective: to save M at all costs. It makes the Church look better when doing so. But what you need now is unbiased counseling, counseling that is looking out for you and not their own agenda.

[White Flower]

Really? Then you know exactly where I'm coming from. It's my life and if you get a divorce or leave, no matter what, you are the bad person. I only have a few friends and they're in my church. I'm hoping I make more friends when I go back to school. Other than that, I don't even know where to meet them. I do go away each year to a photography seminar for a week and that's the only place where I feel like I can actually be "me" and where I have lots of fun just being away from it all. I do appreciate all of your input and insight.

 

I'm going to try to make changes, but it won't happen overnight.

Really!

 

You need to take that bolded statement and throw it right into the trash can. It no longer exists. Make a different truth for yourself and let those around you see it as something good and different, something positive. You can't change your H, but you CAN change you.

 

I went back to school and I made plenty of new friends. I thrived like I never have. Depression lifted, and I realized my strengths and my sense of self-worth. The mirror that my exH was holding up provided quite a different image than the one the rest of the world was showing me.

 

This will happen for you too. Either you H will be excited by the positive changes, or he will fear them and really act out. Be prepared for both, because you don't know which way he's going to react. It's make it or break it time.

 

Be good to yourself. Then you can be better to those around you.

[fooled once]

It makes perfect sense Tory. You sound like me a few years ago. And when I came to LS I would preach to anyone who would listen that 5 minutes spent with MM brought more love, excitement, and LIFE to me than 25 years with my H. I still stand by that statement.

 

I'm glad you don't want a Christian counselor. I tried that once, way back when too, for depression that I experienced as a young mother. I had no idea that I was overwhelmed with doing everything, not getting proper credit for it, and not getting any other support from the man I loved very deeply at the time, my H. They have an objective: to save M at all costs. It makes the Church look better when doing so. But what you need now is unbiased counseling, counseling that is looking out for you and not their own agenda.

 

Tory, divorce does not make anyone a bad person. I am divorced and happily remarried.

 

A bad person is someone who exhibits crappy behavior and no remorse. A person who lies, cheats, disrespects their spouse is a bad person to me. A cheater is a coward and selfish. They feel it is okay to betray their partner, lie to them, and place them in harms way - through STD"s or a jealous affair person.

 

What happened to honesty and integrity? Divorce is always an option when a marriage has ended. Cheating is the cowards way

[Torytorytory]

It makes perfect sense Tory. You sound like me a few years ago. And when I came to LS I would preach to anyone who would listen that 5 minutes spent with MM brought more love, excitement, and LIFE to me than 25 years with my H. I still stand by that statement.

 

I'm glad you don't want a Christian counselor. I tried that once, way back when too, for depression that I experienced as a young mother. I had no idea that I was overwhelmed with doing everything, not getting proper credit for it, and not getting any other support from the man I loved very deeply at the time, my H. They have an objective: to save M at all costs. It makes the Church look better when doing so. But what you need now is unbiased counseling, counseling that is looking out for you and not their own agenda.

 

I went to a Christian counselor years ago when my children were small. It was then that I found out I was codependent and being verbally abused. Divorce at the time was not an option. I don't know why they always insist it's better to stay in the marriage than get out.

[Torytorytory]

Really!

 

You need to take that bolded statement and throw it right into the trash can. It no longer exists. Make a different truth for yourself and let those around you see it as something good and different, something positive. You can't change your H, but you CAN change you.

 

I went back to school and I made plenty of new friends. I thrived like I never have. Depression lifted, and I realized my strengths and my sense of self-worth. The mirror that my exH was holding up provided quite a different image than the one the rest of the world was showing me.

 

This will happen for you too. Either you H will be excited by the positive changes, or he will fear them and really act out. Be prepared for both, because you don't know which way he's going to react. It's make it or break it time.

 

Be good to yourself. Then you can be better to those around you.

 

I am excited for school now! I have noticed that when I was happy and with MM, my h was always trying to bring me down. He does that. He tried to push down my self esteem and keep me where he wants me which is a whiny shell of a person.

[Torytorytory]

I've been talking to my h lately about all of this. Via text mainly because he is out of town. He sounds very sad on the phone. He acts like he is trying to be supportive. I told him I am getting counseling and it starts on Monday. He said, is it because of me or the changes in your life? I told him it's because of everything and I'm not sure where my head is at right now.

 

I told him I am sorry I have no motivation to clean right now or cook or do much of anything and need to find out wtf is wrong with me.

 

 

Last night I downloaded a book on verbal abuse onto my ipad. I started reading it and literally got sick to my stomach over it. It completely described me. I seriously was physically sick over it. I had to put it down and couldn't read anymore of it.

 

His abuse is more subtle like it explained. Mean teasing, always putting me down, etc. Interrupting me constantly, not listening to anything I have said, etc. He was worst when my kids were small. He also has huge anger issues. He's boiling with anger all the time. People laugh and say he's just a grumpy man. It isn't funny when you have to live with it.

 

It also explained what a healthy relationship looks like and how people talk to each other in one. Wow, that would be so nice!

 

How long did it take you guys to get over your unhealthy marriages? I've been in this one almost 25 years. I can't imagine I can get over it that easily. If you are remarried, how is that going? How did the actual divorce go?

 

He gets me so tense inside when he is going to come home from work and from a trip that I get knots in my stomach. I'm sure he'll be fine today when he gets home because he is trying or so he says. I'm afraid though that it won't last. He is and always has been emotionally unavailable. I remember a few months ago when I was getting tense thinking, wow, when I was younger and had more stamina, etc. I could handle this tension better but now that I'm older, I can't live my whole life like this! I can't handle the tension.

 

He does this ocd type vacuuming and runs over anybody in his way. My friends laugh and say, if he is obsessed with vacuuming, let him. They don't understand.

 

I think part of the deal here is that 2 years ago when this all started, I started playing an online game as an escape. I would put my headphones on and talk to people online. It was fun and an escape from reality. I couldn't hear him and didn't care what he said or did because I was escaping to a fantasy world online. I quit playing the game about 6 months ago so now am facing "my life" as it is.

 

When I think about me "post marriage", alls I want is a tiny house and PEACE. I don't even care if I find anybody again, I just want my life organized and to do what I want to do without the tension and put downs. I want to major in art and really concentrate on my photography.

 

When you said, "you can't change him you can only change you", I remember my counselor over 20 years ago telling me that very same thing.

 

I also love the quote from the devotional. I believe that was the path I was headed down. I wanted an escape and really, I wanted to have an affair so I could feel better about myself. I wanted to be "wild" and free. Thank God I found this site! I mean, I did have a type of an affair, but at least it didn't last long and wasn't in person. I didn't care if I hurt my h. I have been trying to lash out somehow at him and maybe it was the only way I could.

 

I know what's going to happen here . . . if I explain "verbal abuse" to my kids or anybody, they won't see it, they'll blame me. And my kids have grown up with it! They have seen it! Yet, they still make excuses for him. I know they will now too. You know what is breaking my heart now? 2 of my kids are getting married soon. My oldest very soon. She has chosen to spend 90% of her time with her fiance and his family. She has done this for the past 2 or 3 years. My son met a wonderful girl and is getting married in Oct. She has a great family! Strong Christians too. He is spending 90% of his time with her and her family. They don't want to be here! He goes fishing with her Dad and does all sort of things with him. I'm so excited for them that they have found loving families to be with.

 

I feel like I'm in a depression right now or something. I've never had depression before. Not like this anyways. Is this normal? When will I feel better?

 

Over the years, I have always felt strongly that sometimes women make up abuse . . . you know what I mean. They'll say he's "verbally abusive" every time somebody has a bad day or something. I pray that isn't me! I don't want to be blaming my h for something that isn't happening. What if I really am too sensitive? What if I shouldn't be taking everything so seriously that he says? What if he really is "just kidding"? Gah, I'm so confused!

 

You know what's funny? Other people have noticed his behavior on occasion. One time one of my Pastors said he noticed my h snapping at me in the kitchen when I had people over. My Mom told me the last time I visited them in Florida, she had never seen me so tense and nervous in my life. That was just 2 months ago. Yet, if I do leave or get a divorce, these same people will be mad at me for doing it.

 

Thank you soooo much for your help and insight! You guys have helped me more than you'll ever know!!!

[bentnotbroken]

I went to a Christian counselor years ago when my children were small. It was then that I found out I was codependent and being verbally abused. Divorce at the time was not an option. I don't know why they always insist it's better to stay in the marriage than get out.

 

 

They don't ALWAYS insist that. Mine did not. She called Mr. Messy a jack wagon and told me if I wanted to survive...leave. The bible allows for divorce without consequences if adultry is involved.

[Torytorytory]

They don't ALWAYS insist that. Mine did not. She called Mr. Messy a jack wagon and told me if I wanted to survive...leave. The bible allows for divorce without consequences if adultry is involved.

 

Yeah it allows for that, but as far as I know, he has never committed adultery.

[White Flower]

I am excited for school now! I have noticed that when I was happy and with MM, my h was always trying to bring me down. He does that. He tried to push down my self esteem and keep me where he wants me which is a whiny shell of a person.

 

Tory, I feel like you are re-telling my own story. My ex didn't want me going to school either. He knew I was smart and charismatic, and that I would go far but too bad he couldn't see that as benefitting US rather than just me. If he could just keep me where I was he could use my unchallenged traits to benefit him and him alone. Had he been really good to me I could have lived with that.

 

I'm so glad you're going back to school!

[Torytorytory]

If you don't mine my asking, how old were you when you went back to school? What did you do with your degree? How soon after you went back did you get a divorce?

[bentnotbroken]

Yeah it allows for that, but as far as I know, he has never committed adultery.

 

 

Abuse isn't tolerated either by the Word of God, if you were in fact abused. And a good counselor Christian or otherwise would have told you so.

[Torytorytory]

Abuse isn't tolerated either by the Word of God, if you were in fact abused. And a good counselor Christian or otherwise would have told you so.

 

Well I know the first counselor I went to years ago told me that I was. Like I said though, he isn't as bad as he used to be. So, I don't know if I am or not? According to the book I looked at last night I am, but I don't want to over react either. I guess i'll wait to hear what the counselor says on Monday?

[White Flower]

I've been talking to my h lately about all of this. Via text mainly because he is out of town. He sounds very sad on the phone. He acts like he is trying to be supportive. I told him I am getting counseling and it starts on Monday. He said, is it because of me or the changes in your life? I told him it's because of everything and I'm not sure where my head is at right now.

 

I told him I am sorry I have no motivation to clean right now or cook or do much of anything and need to find out wtf is wrong with me.

 

 

Last night I downloaded a book on verbal abuse onto my ipad. I started reading it and literally got sick to my stomach over it. It completely described me. I seriously was physically sick over it. I had to put it down and couldn't read anymore of it.

 

His abuse is more subtle like it explained. Mean teasing, always putting me down, etc. Interrupting me constantly, not listening to anything I have said, etc. He was worst when my kids were small. He also has huge anger issues. He's boiling with anger all the time. People laugh and say he's just a grumpy man. It isn't funny when you have to live with it.

 

It also explained what a healthy relationship looks like and how people talk to each other in one. Wow, that would be so nice!

 

How long did it take you guys to get over your unhealthy marriages? I've been in this one almost 25 years. I can't imagine I can get over it that easily. If you are remarried, how is that going? How did the actual divorce go?

 

He gets me so tense inside when he is going to come home from work and from a trip that I get knots in my stomach. I'm sure he'll be fine today when he gets home because he is trying or so he says. I'm afraid though that it won't last. He is and always has been emotionally unavailable. I remember a few months ago when I was getting tense thinking, wow, when I was younger and had more stamina, etc. I could handle this tension better but now that I'm older, I can't live my whole life like this! I can't handle the tension.

 

He does this ocd type vacuuming and runs over anybody in his way. My friends laugh and say, if he is obsessed with vacuuming, let him. They don't understand.

 

I think part of the deal here is that 2 years ago when this all started, I started playing an online game as an escape. I would put my headphones on and talk to people online. It was fun and an escape from reality. I couldn't hear him and didn't care what he said or did because I was escaping to a fantasy world online. I quit playing the game about 6 months ago so now am facing "my life" as it is.

 

When I think about me "post marriage", alls I want is a tiny house and PEACE. I don't even care if I find anybody again, I just want my life organized and to do what I want to do without the tension and put downs. I want to major in art and really concentrate on my photography.

 

When you said, "you can't change him you can only change you", I remember my counselor over 20 years ago telling me that very same thing.

 

I also love the quote from the devotional. I believe that was the path I was headed down. I wanted an escape and really, I wanted to have an affair so I could feel better about myself. I wanted to be "wild" and free. Thank God I found this site! I mean, I did have a type of an affair, but at least it didn't last long and wasn't in person. I didn't care if I hurt my h. I have been trying to lash out somehow at him and maybe it was the only way I could.

 

I know what's going to happen here . . . if I explain "verbal abuse" to my kids or anybody, they won't see it, they'll blame me. And my kids have grown up with it! They have seen it! Yet, they still make excuses for him. I know they will now too. You know what is breaking my heart now? 2 of my kids are getting married soon. My oldest very soon. She has chosen to spend 90% of her time with her fiance and his family. She has done this for the past 2 or 3 years. My son met a wonderful girl and is getting married in Oct. She has a great family! Strong Christians too. He is spending 90% of his time with her and her family. They don't want to be here! He goes fishing with her Dad and does all sort of things with him. I'm so excited for them that they have found loving families to be with.

 

I feel like I'm in a depression right now or something. I've never had depression before. Not like this anyways. Is this normal? When will I feel better?

 

Over the years, I have always felt strongly that sometimes women make up abuse . . . you know what I mean. They'll say he's "verbally abusive" every time somebody has a bad day or something. I pray that isn't me! I don't want to be blaming my h for something that isn't happening. What if I really am too sensitive? What if I shouldn't be taking everything so seriously that he says? What if he really is "just kidding"? Gah, I'm so confused!

 

You know what's funny? Other people have noticed his behavior on occasion. One time one of my Pastors said he noticed my h snapping at me in the kitchen when I had people over. My Mom told me the last time I visited them in Florida, she had never seen me so tense and nervous in my life. That was just 2 months ago. Yet, if I do leave or get a divorce, these same people will be mad at me for doing it.

 

Thank you soooo much for your help and insight! You guys have helped me more than you'll ever know!!!

 

I so understand your apprehension with regard to your H 'acting' supportive. He knows he ought to support you but fears it at the same time. That man really needs IC himself.

 

I understand the lack of motivation to keep house. It is the depression. Not only are you facing the reality of the state of your M and the reasons behind it, but you're dealing with the dreaded Empty Nest syndrome. The beautiful distraction of your children, TWO of them at once, is being taken from you and now you are faced with having to deal with that as well. I'm glad you're no longer in fantasyland.

 

 

The book sickens you because it hits home very hard. Just reading your posts is rehashing it all for me. God Tory, I really feel for you! And the anger issue is another huge one to deal with. It's unstable, and you never know when he's going to blow. It's hard to plan your life around that kind of volatility.

 

And you're so right, it isn't funny having to live with it.

 

Like I said before and will again, my R with MM is much healthier in many ways than my M ever was. We have those healthy conversations your book describes. It still amazes me to this day. And to think if I'd stayed and 'done the right thing' many posters here would cheer me on for doing so, but I'd be a mere zombie dying a slow death.

 

I was M a little longer than you Tory, and that made the D process all the harder. There is glory in being able to say you've been M x amount of years, and some people really enjoy carrying that around with them like some sort of war medal or victory badge. People would ask me how do you do it? What's your secret? And I'd always answer with 'I put up with a lot'. Translation: I was a doormat. And I didn't want to be one anymore. My H could have changed that but he didn't. So I had to change myself.

 

The D process was a long one. First, we needed separate rooms. I wanted no confusion regarding sex so one of us had to sleep on the couch. Since my ex liked working late into the night on his laptop with the TV blaring the natural choice was him, and he didn't complain. That was a shock from Mr. Hot Head!

 

At this point I felt D already in my heart and my EA became PA. No regrets to this day.

 

I did, however, struggle with the legal retainer and with my youngest child being ready. So I began saving money and communicating with my kids about D and learned their thoughts on it, all while working on my degree. (the other D word) :-)

 

I couldn't come up with the very pricey retainer for the lawyer who had consulted for free twice before, but then a miracle happened. A friend repaid $6,500.00 to me out of the blue. It just fell in my lap. I had saved about a thousand bucks by then. My lawyer's retainer was exactly $7,500.00. It was a sign from God. Soon after my then 12 year old asked if her daddy and I were going to D after hearing us fight one day. ( fight=him being mean and me defending my right to be spoken to with respect). I asked her how she would feel if I did D him. She really thought about it, then answered with, 'I think you would both be happier apart'. The next day, a Monday, I gave my lawyer the retainer. My two teenagers had been asking me to leave him for years. Oh, and my H quit going to church when the kids were little, so I didn't have the pressure from a lot of Christian friends to stay M.

 

The actual D went well once my H agreed to my terms. It started out as an uncontested D in a no-fault state (which should have been cheap at less than 2K), but H kept contesting things. That plus an asset search (H liked hiding money from me due to a gambling addiction) added to the cost of my D. And my H had to pay back some money that he took without my knowledge and consent when we were M. In the end my D cost 10K, and I paid for the entire bill.

*

I'd do it all over again.

 

I sleep better, I wake up with a smile on my face because there isn't a lump of heavy breathing sarcastic anger next to me each morning. Instead, I can hear the birds singing each morning, and that's a joyful way to begin each morning!

 

You mentioned concern for not having the stamina to deal with his anger at this stage of your life. I felt this to the point of having nightly nightmares of my plane falling out of the sky. I'd jolt awake every single night so I saw an IC for it. He told me once I began doing something to gain control of my own destiny, because my H was currently in control and I clearly didn't feel safe that way, I would stop having those nightmares. The day I enrolled in college was the day those dreams stopped. I still cry when I type that out. It was a victorious day for me and it changed my life.

 

I had an escape too, it was reading books. But H would tease me (more like taunt me) and say, well kids looks like you're going to lose your mother for another two weeks while she's caught up in yet another book'. He'd say he was teasing but it hurt, and it stopped me from reading because he wasn't really teasing. But my stopping reading was like your stopping the online games. Like you, it was time to DEAL.

 

A tiny house would have been fine for me too, but my H signed this one over to me... Because he thought I would lose it. But tenacious and resourceful as I am I was able to save it from a court-appointed auction and do a loan mod on it. My ex was right, I was smart and charismatic and this time it benefitted me and my kids. I have two in college now but they're still with me most of the time. This will always be their home and I will have something to leave them when I die. My ex would have gambled it away, leaving them nothing.

 

I understand the lashing out against your H. Whenever I see WWs feeling guilty about cheating I can't help but think they've never been abused, and never needed to lash out, to fight back. Many will tell you that two wrongs don't make a right, and that our other viable solution (suicide) would be better than participating in an A. Well, I think I know what's better for me! And my kids would agree too.

 

Your kids' behaviors are not consistent with their struggle to keep their parents together. That is because, and I'm sorry if this hurts, you have raised them to believe in the fairy tale of the perfect life, the fairy tale that the church community fosters. This is MM's struggle too. He cheated for over 40 years while taking his kids to church where he was an usher no less. They freaked out last December when he tried to leave, and they are in their 30s! The belief in fairy tales, the dream, runs very strong for some and you'll have to decide if your sanity is more important than that fairy tale. Your kids are now spending most of their time in happier Christian homes because deep down they don't want to accept-by refusing to witness any longer- the abuse they deny to themselves is there in your home.

 

Tory, yes, you are suffering from depression. You can take Meds to mask the symptoms and make everybody in your life happy-except you- or you can stop the nightmare and change your life for the better. You decide. But you asked when you will feel better and I can only tell you that I felt better after D.

 

You struggle with knowing whether your H is really abusing you or if it's just all in your head. Tory, I struggled too. This is because you are a very caring and nurturing woman who would throw herself in front of a bus or a bullet to save her loved ones. You'd rather make this your fault than your H's or even the church's for not being more supportive of you, you who would die for all of them. You'd rather make all this go away so they don't have to suffer, suffer the way you suffer. But denial won't get you anywhere except more pain, more resentment, and possibly another A to ease the pain just a little.

 

Those people who recognize your tenseness yet would be mad if you left your H are at odds with their own belief system. How can they love you so much only to hope you can tolerate that kind of pain for the rest of your life. Rebellious as I am (Wheelwright called me that!), I would call them out on their 'love' when the time came. Do they love their church more than their flesh and blood? God, I hope not.

 

We're here for you Tory.

 

(((Tory)))