Contact frequency in a relationship

[A O]

This post is one big accusation.

It's a lot more than that. Looked at through truly objective eyes then the advice is sound (as are many of her observations). There's little room for objectivity when posters are basing their opinion(s) on present and without doubt - past behaviors of others.

 

I don't expect a single person to listen to my advice, but I believe it can help lots of people. It helped me when I listened to it.

It's great advice but in coaching parlance, you've lost the ear of the dressing room unfortunately.

 

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[threebyfate]

I'm not going down that gigantic rabbit hole.

 

But I will say that everyone is different, with different wants, needs and reactions. In expecting ES to be a carbon copy of yourselves, continuously harassing and trying to control her behaviours, is about 1000 times worse than ES's behaviours.

 

If you two are truly responsible for yourselves, you'd stop trying to hammer at her vulnerabilities and balance YOUR own thought processes.

[Star Gazer]

In expecting ES to be a carbon copy of yourselves, continuously harassing and trying to control her behaviours, is about 1000 times worse than ES's behaviours.

 

Actually, that's exactly what she does in ALL her relationships, including this one... complain, complain, complain, and try to control. Rinse, repeat.

[A O]

In expecting ES to be a carbon copy of yourselves, continuously harassing and trying to control her behaviours, is about 1000 times worse than ES's behaviours.

I tend to view ES as if she were my daughter. As such, I want the very best for her, and my extensive, mostly healthy and functional relationship experience tells me that she's getting everything but that, everything but a sound, healthy relationship experience. This is where I come from. So in one aspect you're right on the money, I'd love her and people in general to experience the sort of relationship history that I've been fortunate to have, but on the other hand - people are free and must be free to choose their own path. So harass and control - definitely not.

 

If you two are truly responsible for yourselves, you'd stop trying to hammer at her vulnerabilities and balance YOUR own thought processes.

Her biggest problem are the posters here. Said that many times. But I guess that all comes down to the type of relationship experience we wish people to enjoy. From my point of view, they're unsatisfactory, I know she can experience much better but she needs to seek professional help for that to happen, because again, the years she's been here hasn't made any real, meaningful change to her relationship expereinces.

 

 

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[zengirl]

As someone who had to learn how to be vulnerable and clearheaded at the same time, I think Mme. Chaucer has a point. Not the most sweetly-worded point, not the most welcome point, but a point made out of sincere desire to help. But that's just my thought. YMMV. And it's helpful for me, even, to be reminded of those words. Particularly this part:

 

If you really want to be with him and really do have feelings FOR HIM, then fight for the relationship and remain vulnerable through his "colder" phases rather than being immediately ready to bail. Work through the difficulties AS A COUPLE. And if it ultimately does not work the way you'd wanted it to, you walk away knowing you gave something worthwhile your best - that it was WORTH the risks you took, and though your heart may be broken, it will heal, you will have gained something, learned something, etc.

 

I am just wondering... in an established exclusive relationship, is it OK to sometimes go a day or 2 without any form of contact?

 

To me, I'd say I've learned the answer is: a day? Sure. Two? Maybe once and awhile. More than that? Not really, except with extenuating circumstances. And if I'm counting days since contact? A very bad sign. And if I'm afraid to initiate contact? A more troubling sign.

 

But that's for me. I used to think contact every day was too much, but I talk to the new boyfriend every day and I kind of like it. I don't know if we always will. Maybe, maybe not, but at least now I see why people do. Then again, I'm drenched with love-chemicals. That's the problem with beginnings, isn't it?

 

You seem to be at the stage in your relationship where the chemicals are wearing off, and that's always the most harrowing time. I hope your relationship will last, but I suspect it will not. It sounds like neither of you are truly ready for a relationship that lasts. I think you have to get to a place where you're comfortable losing a relationship in order to be at a place where you keep it. Anxiety destroys everything it touches; it just does.

 

Thanks. The last thing I want is to waste time in a dead end relationship.

 

It's not a waste of time if it teaches you something. Trite, maybe, but always seems true of relationships to me.

[threebyfate]

AO, you are once again, not her. What you deem as a perfect relationship, she might deem as boring or dysfunctional.

 

As far as ES changing, yes, she has improved and would probably improve more if people would get off her ass with their nitpicking and nagging.

[zengirl]

AO, you are once again, not her. What you deem as a perfect relationship, she might deem as boring or dysfunctional.

 

As far as ES changing, yes, she has improved and would probably improve more if people would get off her ass with their nitpicking and nagging.

 

She is not happy. I've never seen her happy for more than a short spell, based on what she posts. It's not like anyone is "nitpicking or nagging" as you say because they want her to be unhappy. Almost everyone who posts in her threads, whatever they say, seems to want her to be happy. Whatever that is for her. But she isn't. So, obviously, something very important needs to change and hasn't.

 

Everyone has unhappy times, of course, but not so long a stretch. That is not desirable or normal. (And since ES has said other parts of her life fare much better, this is obviously an area that stands alone in its need, where she has some sort of blind spot to how to fix it.)

 

Do you think someone wonderful will come along, make her happy, and change things for her? I've just never seen or heard of that really happening. Everyone who I know who's happy, including myself, made themselves that way.

[EasyHeart]

OO, that's exactly what puzzles me. Inviting me to spend 4 weeks with him in Europe, where it will be just the two of us together and meeting his extended family seems like he is quite serious about me.

 

On the other hand, lack of day to day contact makes me think that he is not.

I haven't dug through this entire thread, but I'll address this point.

 

I have never been in a relationship where I have had daily contact with my GF (unless we were living together) and I can't imagine I ever would. I certainly go through periods where we talk every day for a while, but it's not at all uncommon to go for a few days without talk. Typically, we might see each other one day and at the end of the date, make plans to see each other in a few days. There's no reason or need to talk to each other between those times: I have a life and so does she.

 

Now, it might be that you or other women expect/want/desire daily (or multiple daily) contact, and that's you're choice. But I don't think it's accurate to project you expectations/wants/desires onto him and think, "Well, since he doesn't do what I want him to do means that he is not serious about me."

 

Can you see that those two things are completely unrelated?

[zengirl]

I haven't dug through this entire thread, but I'll address this point.

 

I have never been in a relationship where I have had daily contact with my GF (unless we were living together) and I can't imagine I ever would. I certainly go through periods where we talk every day for a while, but it's not at all uncommon to go for a few days without talk. Typically, we might see each other one day and at the end of the date, make plans to see each other in a few days. There's no reason or need to talk to each other between those times: I have a life and so does she.

 

Now, it might be that you or other women expect/want/desire daily (or multiple daily) contact, and that's you're choice. But I don't think it's accurate to project you expectations/wants/desires onto him and think, "Well, since he doesn't do what I want him to do means that he is not serious about me."

 

Can you see that those two things are completely unrelated?

 

I used to be of your opinion on this (the stretches were no big deal) but I've come to wonder.

 

Have you ever married or wanted to marry any of those girls?

 

I kind of think men who are marriage material and want to get married to the gal they're dating someday are the guys who tend to have daily contact (almost all the time). Maybe just a trend I've seen lately.

 

Though I still agree with your general point. Just curious, EH. This is a new theory I'm trying on. Trying to figure out what makes marrying men different, particularly in THAT relationship, than other situations. This is something I've seen a lot of cases of lately.

[A O]

AO, you are once again, not her. What you deem as a perfect relationship, she might deem as boring or dysfunctional.

I'm not after perfection. What I am after she has already stated as wanting anyway, thanks to a fantastic question you asked of her earlier.

 

As far as ES changing, yes, she has improved and would probably improve more if people would get off her ass with their nitpicking and nagging.

She's like an alcoholic but instead of drinking two or three bottles of spirits a day she's now down to just the one. So, yes, she has improved but she's still an alcoholic. Whatever is driving her to drink, whatever is causing her dysfunction is still there. People here are helping her "manage" her dysfunction, but that's all they're doing.

 

 

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[threebyfate]

She is not happy. I've never seen her happy for more than a short spell, based on what she posts. It's not like anyone is "nitpicking or nagging" as you say because they want her to be unhappy. Almost everyone who posts in her threads, whatever they say, seems to want her to be happy. Whatever that is for her. But she isn't. So, obviously, something very important needs to change and hasn't.

 

Everyone has unhappy times, of course, but not so long a stretch. That is not desirable or normal. (And since ES has said other parts of her life fare much better, this is obviously an area that stands alone in its need, where she has some sort of blind spot to how to fix it.)

 

Do you think someone wonderful will come along, make her happy, and change things for her? I've just never seen or heard of that really happening. Everyone who I know who's happy, including myself, made themselves that way.

Are you happy all the time or do you sometimes come onto LS to discuss issues that make you unhappy? Do you honestly know what a happy relationship entails for ES which includes factoring in ES as an individual, as well as her b/f as an individual? Can you read minds and hearts? Were you there to experience her relationship?

 

If you respond yes to anything, my b/s flag goes down.

 

I'm not suggesting that people stop giving her advice. Just pull back the fangs that come out. Consider both sides of the equation instead of always hammering on negative issues that she's admitted to, blowing everything up to the degree that the sky is falling, that is, unless she listens to your advice.

 

For sure, she doesn't always listen to my advice and that's okay. Her life, her choice.

[threebyfate]

She's like an alcoholic but instead of drinking two or three bottles of spirits a day she's now down to just the one. So, yes, she has improved but she's still an alcoholic. Whatever is driving her to drink, whatever is causing her dysfunction is still there. People here are helping her "manage" her dysfunction, but that's all they're doing.

This is exactly the type of advice that's not helpful. In your head, you've created a woman who's nuts. ES is not nuts. She has some anxiety issues that she comes to LS to discuss, just like everyone else. Telling her she's nuts is only going to cause her to ignore your advice of which there might be grains of value that get ignored with the rest.

 

Just pull back your fangs. She's not your daughter or spouse. She's an adult that's looking for help. Treat her as such.

[EasyHeart]

YAY!!! Zengirl is back!!! We missed you.

 

Have you ever married or wanted to marry any of those girls?

Yes, absolutely! And in my successful relationships, it's never really been an issue. Now, like I said, there are certainly times where we would talk every day (or multiple times a day) if there were a reason to talk -- but not obligatory "How was you day?" talks every, single day. And early-on when you're getting to know someone, it's pretty common to talk every day. But after a few months, which is when I usually stop thinking of "dating" and start thinking "relationship", things settle down to a more sustainable pace.

 

But my good relationships tend to be with women who are pretty independent and have full lives, so they have stuff to do besides talk to me. Plus, then when we do talk, we usually have lots to talk about. I think it's mostly related to personality. I've certainly dated women who want/need to talk every day. In the past, I used to put up with it and try to comply with it (usually thinking I was doing something wrong and had to try harder to please her), but those relationships never lasted very long (and usually didn't go too well!), so now I tend to see it more as a compatibility issue than anything else.

 

I kind of think men who are marriage material and want to get married to the gal they're dating someday are the guys who tend to have daily contact (almost all the time). Maybe just a trend I've seen lately.

 

Though I still agree with your general point. Just curious, EH. This is a new theory I'm trying on. Trying to figure out what makes marrying men different, particularly in THAT relationship, than other situations. This is something I've seen a lot of cases of lately.

I've never thought about it (and never dated any men!) so I won't opine on the theory. My guess would be that it has more to do with the style of relationship people are looking for, rather than whether they are "marriage material". I know happily married couples who are attached at the hip, and I know others that have a much more loosely attached type of relationship. Both can be successful, provided both people want the same style of relationship.

[sanskrit]

Are you happy all the time or do you sometimes come onto LS to discuss issues that make you unhappy? Do you honestly know what a happy relationship entails for ES which includes factoring in ES as an individual, as well as her b/f as an individual? Can you read minds and hearts? Were you there to experience her relationship?

 

If you respond yes to anything, my b/s flag goes down.

 

I'm not suggesting that people stop giving her advice. Just pull back the fangs that come out. Consider both sides of the equation instead of always hammering on negative issues that she's admitted to, blowing everything up to the degree that the sky is falling, that is, unless she listens to your advice.

 

For sure, she doesn't always listen to my advice and that's okay. Her life, her choice.

 

Great post! and I'm sure Mr. Dream Merchant and certain other male LS posters will be most appreciative of your stance going forward also.

[threebyfate]

Great post! and I'm sure Mr. Dream Merchant and certain other male LS posters will be most appreciative of your stance going forward also.

ES doesn't run around LS bashing men in general. Doesn't bitch that purportedly every man wants a relationship with her and then admit that she purportedly targets relationship style men so she can use them for sex.

[zengirl]

YAY!!! Zengirl is back!! We missed you.

 

Yes, absolutely! And in my successful relationships, it's never really been an issue. Now, like I said, there are certainly times where we would talk every day (or multiple times a day) if there were a reason to talk -- but not obligatory "How was you day?" talks every, single day. And early-on when you're getting to know someone, it's pretty common to talk every day. But after a few months, which is when I usually stop thinking of "dating" and start thinking "relationship", things settle down to a more sustainable pace.

 

But my good relationships tend to be with women who are pretty independent and have full lives, so they have stuff to do besides talk to me. Plus, then when we do talk, we usually have lots to talk about. I think it's mostly related to personality. I've certainly dated women who want/need to talk every day. In the past, I used to put up with it and try to comply with it (usually thinking I was doing something wrong and had to try harder to please her), but those relationships never lasted very long (and usually didn't go too well!), so now I tend to see it more as a compatibility issue than anything else.

 

I suppose I generally consider myself "independent" and not a phone person either. But now there are lots of other ways to communicate daily. I don't think I could ever be a person who talked on the phone every single day, so I guess for me, communication includes lots of other things, for the record: FB activity (even so much as "liking" a status or tagging), email, texting, phone, seeing them, etc.

 

Interesting to see your perspective. I'd always thought about it as a compatibility issue before, but my mind is turning towards the possibility that there may be something "to" it as a sign of things. I think the level of integration is the biggest sign----relationships I see work out seem to have high levels of integration, relatively early, and that's always something I've been against, as I compartmentalize. So, that's what I'm trying to do differently in my new relationship. We'll see how that works. Anyway, integration = a lot more contact, I'm finding.

 

I've never thought about it (and never dated any men!) so I won't opine on the theory. My guess would be that it has more to do with the style of relationship people are looking for, rather than whether they are "marriage material". I know happily married couples who are attached at the hip, and I know others that have a much more loosely attached type of relationship. Both can be successful, provided both people want the same style of relationship.

 

See, I am not the "attached at the hip" sort perse (I do like some "Me" time even) but I suppose it's about striking the right balance. This is probably a diversion from the thread, but I find your thoughts interesting, so it was a happy diversion for me.

[Eternal Sunshine]

TBF did a very articulate job in expressing how I feel when constantly attacked.

 

She is almost the only one who was willing to discuss if there is something wrong with this particular relationship, rather than repeat ad nauseum what is wrong with me.

 

Last couple of pages disintegrated as usual. YES I have heard you when you repeat for months how nuts and dysfunctional I am. What do you get out of visiting my every thread and repeating it for the 123rd time?

[zengirl]

Are you happy all the time or do you sometimes come onto LS to discuss issues that make you unhappy? Do you honestly know what a happy relationship entails for ES which includes factoring in ES as an individual, as well as her b/f as an individual? Can you read minds and hearts? Were you there to experience her relationship?

 

If you respond yes to anything, my b/s flag goes down.

 

I'm not suggesting that people stop giving her advice. Just pull back the fangs that come out. Consider both sides of the equation instead of always hammering on negative issues that she's admitted to, blowing everything up to the degree that the sky is falling, that is, unless she listens to your advice.

 

For sure, she doesn't always listen to my advice and that's okay. Her life, her choice.

 

I purposefully said in my post that NO ONE is happy all the time.

 

ES hasn't been happy for a meaningful period (has she even had a fully happy month without an anxiety over relationship stuff?) in terms of her romantic life in YEARS. I've seen her admit as much. And I think she wants to change that. (She can correct me if I'm wrong, surely.)

 

I am not happy all the time, but I've had years of peace and happiness in relationship sphere, in the work sphere, and even overall. There were times in my life where an area seemed to be going badly for an undue amount of time, and at those points, I sought solutions to fix that rather than saw it as the way things had to be. Sadness happens, but prolonged suffering doesn't have to in most cases.

 

At any rate, I don't think my advice has fangs. All I want is for ES to figure out what she wants, get it, and be happy with it. I think she can do it if she faces her anxieties, does a lot of work, and figures out what's going wrong.

 

P.S. ES, I don't think you're nuts. At all. I think you're unhappy and finding bad patterns in relationships is all. I think anxiety is a major issue for you, in relationships, in particular. And the issue with discussing particulars is anxiety trumps particulars. Always. Anxiety is a relationship-killer and a happiness-killer, and it makes it hard to see the forest for the trees or up from down or know what the real problem of the particulars is.

Edited May 31, 2011 by zengirl

[A O]

This is exactly the type of advice that's not helpful. In your head, you've created a woman who's nuts. ES is not nuts.

Dysfunction as it purports to likes of the OP, is in this instance a 'faulty thought process' that leads to among other things - anxiety. It can be managed, but years of being here hasn't stopped these thought processes from manifesting. And that's my main point - they still manifest. They still hinder her ability to form and maintain healthy relationships. Whether she's nuts or whatever is not something I care to bother myself with, let alone anyone else here.

 

Telling her she's nuts is only going to cause her to ignore your advice of which there might be grains of value that get ignored with the rest.

In everyday life, we all want to help those close to us, whom reach out to us. But sometimes they are beyond our help - unchanged, repeated behavior over a long period of time tends to bring us to this realization. And that is where I am at here. She is beyond our help but seeing this, realizing this, isn't the easiest thing to see or do I understand.

 

Just pull back your fangs. She's not your daughter or spouse. She's an adult that's looking for help. Treat her as such.

All the crap has come from one direction as far as you and I are concerned. I've tried to turn a blind eye to it but it just keeps on coming on. She, like everyone here gets treated inn the same manner that I wish to be treated by - with respect!

 

 

.

[threebyfate]

At any rate, I don't think my advice has fangs. All I want is for ES to figure out what she wants, get it, and be happy with it. I think she can do it if she faces her anxieties, does a lot of work, and figures out what's going wrong.

That's good. And to be frank, I was addressing AO, Mme. Chaucer and a few others.

 

I've been reading ES's threads since 2006. She has improved quite a bit since that time and is a lot more open to external views and has revealed a lot about herself on LS, leaving herself wide open to attacks on her character and person. Takes guts to do this considering how people keep jumping on her ass for every little thing she does.

 

ES needs to be the person who makes the final decision, not everyone else pushing her towards something that might not make her happy. She's the type of person who needs to think through everything, to the degree where she gets a comfort level from it. When she experiences a break in pattern from someone's normal behaviour, her internal alarms go off and she goes into observation mode.

[zengirl]

That's good. And to be frank, I was addressing AO, Mme. Chaucer and a few others.

 

Ah, gotcha. Was hard to say. I do really like that bit of Mme. Chaucer's post I quoted (and while I think she perhaps is a lady with an iron steel -- no offense, Mme. Chaucer! --- I don't think she ever intends anyone harm when she posts; she's just a lady who says her peace, whatever it may be). Worrying about what someone else is thinking, what they'll do, and trying to act accordingly? I've never seen it make anyone happy.

 

Or, as Dorothy Parker says in the Lady's Reward:

 

Lady, lady, never speak

Of the tears that burn your cheek-

She will never win him, whose

Words had shown she feared to lose.

Be you wise and never sad,

You will get your lovely lad.

Never serious be, nor true,

And your wish will come to you-

And if that makes you happy, kid,

You'll be the first it ever did.

 

Basically, the idea, is "if you're not vulnerable, you don't get hurt." Well, maybe or maybe not, but you don't get happy either. And that's what I think the message of that portion of Mme. Chaucer's post established so well.

[sanskrit]

ES doesn't run around LS bashing men in general. Doesn't bitch that purportedly every man wants a relationship with her and then admit that she purportedly targets relationship style men so she can use them for sex.

 

I don't see MDM "running around" LS "bashing women" or anyone else, and even if he did, why wouldn't that come under the ambit of your advice to zengirl? Wouldn't "bitching" about the fact that women want relationships with him qualify as fodder for your advice to zengirl in the previous post also? No? Why not?

 

The last part of the above quoted paragraph is a bald-faced lie and you know it.

 

Want me to do some of the above styled "fact twisting" about ES's posts/threads? No? After all, she doesn't just hint around at manipulating the men in her life to get what she wants, she explicitly describes exactly how she goes about it with pride right in this thread. I'm not judging her for it, just suggesting that judging other posters for less because they happen to own a penis is massively hypocritical.

 

But I see... it's -different-.

[zengirl]

I don't see MDM "running around" LS "bashing women" or anyone else. He doesn't make that many threads at all actually. Wouldn't "bitching" about the fact that women want relationships with him qualify as fodder for your advice to zengirl in the previous post? No? Why not?

 

The last part of the above quoted paragraph is a bald-faced lie and you know it.

 

Want me to do some of the above styled "fact twisting" about ES's posts/threads? No? After all, she doesn't just hint around at manipulating the men in her life to get what she wants, she explicitly describes exactly how she goes about it with pride right in this thread. I'm not judging her for it, just suggesting that judging other posters for less because they happen to own a penis is massively hypocritical.

 

But I see... it's -different-.

 

I haven't been around for a bit, but last time I was, MDM was making tons of threads, usually about girls that wanted to sleep with him (in his mind) and how they were trashy (pot, meet kettle).

 

When ES tries to get her guy to react a specific way (and while I agree she provokes a reaction sometimes, as people tend to do when they feel anxious or insecure, I don't think she's some puppeteer, trying to manipulate the men in her life as you describe it), it's because she wants to see if he cares about her or not (at least this is my interpretation) whereas MDM seems to just write about how women are trashy for sleeping around so he's just going to sleep around. I'm not sure what the two posters have in common at all. ES is struggling to maintain a healthy LTR and, last I heard, MDM didn't even want one.

[threebyfate]

Basically, the idea, is "if you're not vulnerable, you don't get hurt." Well, maybe or maybe not, but you don't get happy either. And that's what I think the message of that portion of Mme. Chaucer's post established so well.

Not going to get into the contents of MC's post. There are times where what you've expressed is worthwhile and other times where it can be detrimental. The trick is to know which time to apply which methodology.

 

I agree that more information is necessary, prior to taking any steps towards any further actions. But for sure, there's been a break in his pattern of behaviour. What this means, time will tell.

[zengirl]

Not going to get into the contents of MC's post. There are times where what you've expressed is worthwhile and other times where it can be detrimental. The trick is to know which time to apply which methodology.

 

I guess this is where you and I would disagree. Personally, I found my relationships have gone more smoothly since I've honed my own "coda" of behavior and acted the way I wanted/felt was right, rather than worried about the "situation" or how I could be hurt. Others disagree, of course, but I think that while being vulnerable can certainly get you hurt, it gets you hurt in better ways at least than the alternative. And being hurt isn't always the worst thing. Sometimes the fear of being hurt is worse. But YMMV.