Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 I think that many men (and women) use the old "attack is the best defense" tactic. If I say I am not happy with a, b and c, he comes back with saying he is not happy with x, y and z. Now, he really doesn't care about x, y and z at all. I naively took it at face value, fulfilled x, y and z only to see that he couldn't care less. I will be fine, I have survived worse break ups I just want this situation resolved so that I can put it behind me,
utterer of lies Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 The only plausible explanation is that he doesn't feel the same way. I just wish he would let me go already. Why don't you let him go? It's not his job to break up because you are in overdrive crisis mode again. I will be fine, I have survived worse break ups I just want this situation resolved so that I can put it behind me, Then resolve it yourself.
Kamille Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Yes - it's after 1am and he goes to bed 11-12am - he ain't going to wish me good night. The only plausible explanation is that he doesn't feel the same way. I just wish he would let me go already. It's far from being the only plausible explanation. You haven't said how you communicated your feelings (was it: "I really dig you and I'm falling for you and it makes me feel vulnerable" or "I am questioning our relationships due to your inconsistent communication" or "Tell me how you feel because I'm confused" or or or ?). Could another explanation be that he needs to take some time before he responds to you? We know from past experience that you've sent out intense emails, and still expected him to continue to act like there was no huge issue, all while he needed to take time to properly to respond to your email, this, because he took it seriously. Also, as I recall, his response was more than adequate and meant to reassure you. (Even though you failed to see it because you were in full crisis mode). I think that many men (and women) use the old "attack is the best defense" tactic. Yes, and you're among them. The minute you feel he is pulling away, you want to end it, you pull back, you even go as far as break up with him. That's a passive aggressive way of "attacking" as a defense mechanism. If I say I am not happy with a, b and c, he comes back with saying he is not happy with x, y and z. Now, he really doesn't care about x, y and z at all. I naively took it at face value, fulfilled x, y and z only to see that he couldn't care less. How do you know this? Is that what he said? Has he told you he doesn't care about x,y and z? Has he responded to your communication? Or are you jumping to conclusions? I will be fine, I have survived worse break ups I just want this situation resolved so that I can put it behind me, Yes, you will be fine. Two things though; 1) right now you're not fine. 2) you're stating, again, that you don't care about him / aren't emotionally invested in this relationship. I get the feeling you're putting yourself in a position of "battle of who could care less". The danger with that tactic is that 1) It will either unnecessarily prolong relationships with commitmentphobes or 2) it will eventually push away the guys who are ready for commitments. Dare to let yourself be vulnerable ES. There's no shame in it. And not matter what, you will be fine. Edited May 30, 2011 by Kamille
Mme. Chaucer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 If you want a relationship to work, YOU have to work on it. It's not all about arranging everything so you have all of your needs met, your insecurities assuaged 100% of the time, and making sure that your feelings are protected. In fact, sticking to that program will ensure failure of a relationship. DO YOU WANT TO BE WITH THIS GUY. DO YOU TRULY HAVE DEEP FEELINGS FOR HIM? Or are your feelings only reactive, based upon how his behavior reflects upon YOU? If you really want to be with him and really do have feelings FOR HIM, then fight for the relationship and remain vulnerable through his "colder" phases rather than being immediately ready to bail. Work through the difficulties AS A COUPLE. And if it ultimately does not work the way you'd wanted it to, you walk away knowing you gave something worthwhile your best - that it was WORTH the risks you took, and though your heart may be broken, it will heal, you will have gained something, learned something, etc. If you DON'T really want to be with him, and his shortcomings are sufficient to make him an inappropriate match for you (his shortcomings, as I understand them, are that he runs "hot and cold" and he sometimes seems to blow off your stated need for daily, or more frequent, contact) you are absolutely correct to be true to yourself and say goodbye, in an honest, straightforward way, like the grown up adult woman that you are. NOT correct to either "break up" with him so he'll cry and step up his attentiveness to the level you'd like to keep you, or to start throwing up impossible to navigate emotional land mines for him to blunder into and "fail" or ultimately give up on having a HEALTHY relationship with you and break up with you. For the record, if you have represented this man and your relationship with him honestly, I strongly disagree with the advice that his failure to call you for 2 days despite your telling him that this is not acceptable to you is a HUGE red flag and a valid reason to write him off. There are two sides to every relationship issue, usually. Knowing you from LS, I would not be surprised if your behavior is sometimes very confusing to a person with whom you are in a relationship. Being upfront with one's needs is great, but sometimes the way needs are presented can be very "cornering." The guy also has his own personal challenges and issues. If he starts to feel cornered, or overwhelmed, or maybe manipulated or off balance - and he is a person who tends to "run hot and cold" as he says he is - this could be a situation where he turns to "colder" to have a moment, to re-calibrate, to see where things are. I am not defending this or "taking his side," but ES, you are not the ONLY person in a relationship who might exhibit some less than perfect behavior. He has to be perfect, while you are all over the map reacting to your own inner turmoil? Not fair.
threebyfate Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 MC, why are you always crapping all over ES for every, little thing she does? Ever notice that the advice you give her isn't one you enact? If you want more tolerance from her, then display it by not "cornering" her.
johan Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 ES after all he has said and done and been through with you, it seems like you would feel more at ease and have faith in his feelings for you. But it seems like you refuse to believe that he's being sincere. The premise behind your posts is that there are things he could be doing or saying that would put your mind at ease. And if he kept doing that stuff all the time, you would never doubt. But you know that relationships mature. People's behavior when they are establishing a relationship is different from their behavior when it has been established. By necessity. It's exhausting to try to keep the early-days spark glowing. At some point you need to be able to relax. Are you letting him relax? Could you tolerate him just being his normal self around you? Is it hard for you to believe in his feelings for you because you could never believe in them from anyone? Do you think of yourself as someone who could really be loved? Maybe you don't and so you think there must be some deception going on when someone actually says he has strong feelings for you. That would make sense to me if 1) you don't know what is lovable about you, and/or 2) you suspect the guy is into you because you're a trophy and isn't as concerned about your personality. You cant love someone simply because they are pretty.
Star Gazer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 I just told him that I can't go to Europe. He said that he is disappointed but understands. We agreed to go to Thailand this summer. How is it that you're not allowed to take even 2 days off to go to Europe, but you'll be allowed to take time off to go to Thailand? I basically bared all, my insecurities and vulnerabilities. I don't believe this to be true AT ALL, given that you said this: He asked me how I feel about him. He claims that he has told me multiple times and given me so many compliments and I never said anything but "thanks". I actually haven't even realized that I have been doing that. So I gave him some compliments etc... It's funny. I haven't realized how guarded I have been about my feelings. And this: He also told me that after the first time we had sex, he felt like we had a moment...but then I started talking about real estate market lol Giving someone compliments is not "bearing all your insecurities and vulnerabilities," and being emotionally distant towards him also reveals you've been nothing but guarded. The poor guy can't catch a break.
Star Gazer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 Yes - it's after 1am and he goes to bed 11-12am - he ain't going to wish me good night. The only plausible explanation is that he doesn't feel the same way. I just wish he would let me go already. Wrong. There are other plausible explanations, you just don't want to face them because they have to do with things you're unwilling to fix about yourself. And you can always let him go, again. Why wait on him?
vsmini Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 Based on my personal experience and my likes and dislikes I'm ok with going 1-1.5 days with no contact but 2+ days is a little much - this of course talking about when the relationship has already reached serious. I had consistent communication in my previous relationships (between the both of us, remember it takes two in a relationships) with the exception of my last ex who I used to make excuses for all the time. I thought his 2-3 days of silence was him being independent....no - he turned out to be Mister emotionally unavailable The guy I'm with now - communication is every day or every other day. No 2+day gaps with us. I haven't reached any perfect conclusion from all of this but I did find it interesting that I tried to hide my discomfort with my ex and the fact that he would let 2+days go by with out even caring if we spoke or made plans in the future. The only guy I ever had this problem with turned out to be a comitt-O-phome Factors such as schedule, stress level (if it's a crazy time in his/her life) and individual comfort level all play parts.
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 Thanks Kamille, TBF and johan. All good points. I have no idea what he is thinking or why he chose not to communicate with me last night. After expressing how I felt (BTW Kamille it was in the form of "I am so happy to have met you. You are mature, smart, cute and sexy........") There wasn't anything negative and I didn't mention any issues. It wasn't even "I love you" or "I like you a lot". I have tentative plans to have dinner with him and his brother (whom I have met many times before) on Wednesday night. We haven't firmed up the details - so I will not contact him today (Tuesday). I will let him do it and if he doesn't, I will be have my answer. I don't want to end a potentially good relationship prematurely. At the same time, I don't want to stay with someone who doesn't care about me and/or is manipulating me. I also know that if I break up with him again, it will be for the final time. So I must think carefully. Right now, there is not enough evidence to conclude anything, except that *something* doesn't feel quite right.
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 Also, what most fail to see is that - yes I have issues but that doesn't automatically mean that the other person doesn't have even bigger issues.
Star Gazer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 After expressing how I felt (BTW Kamille it was in the form of "I am so happy to have met you. You are mature, smart, cute and sexy........") It wasn't even "I love you" or "I like you a lot". Contrary to your previous assessment, you are not expressing your vulnerabilities and insecurities when you say things like this. You aren't even showing him how you feel... you can't tell him you even like him! So this begs the question that's been asked about a million times already: DO YOU even like him?? Love him?
Mme. Chaucer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 MC, why are you always crapping all over ES for every, little thing she does? Ever notice that the advice you give her isn't one you enact? If you want more tolerance from her, then display it by not "cornering" her. Where have I "crapped all over" ES?
Star Gazer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 Also, what most fail to see is that - yes I have issues but that doesn't automatically mean that the other person doesn't have even bigger issues. He sounds pretty awesome to me, given evvvvvverything you've said. So, name these "issues" you think he has.
OliveOyl Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 There's a bit of cognitive dissonance here. On the one hand, you're concerned because he's not being as responsive on a daily basis as you would like. It makes you worry he's not into you enough. I understand this concern, in my opinion though, it is not enough to break up over -- at least not yet. On the other hand he invited you to spend 4 weeks with him in Europe to meet his extended family. I assume if you had been able to join him, that would mean constant contact and just the invitation alone seems like a deepening of commitment. On the one hand, a few weeks ago you broke up with him because you thought you never really loved him enough. On the other hand you state that you worry you are getting too attached. It seems to me there is a bit of power-struggle/passive-aggressiveness on both sides. He blows hot and cold, and so do you.
Mme. Chaucer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 Also, what most fail to see is that - yes I have issues but that doesn't automatically mean that the other person doesn't have even bigger issues. Actually, that's exactly what I was getting at. He is a person, he has his own issues, he is also bound to be "reactive" (to you, and how you behave, just as you are to him). I think that every person needs the "space" to be who they are, issues and all. If their girlfriend / boyfriend finds those issues to be too negative to deal with and work through, then they are valid deal breakers. Otherwise, they are obstacles that might be worth overcoming. It's a choice. It's not about somebody being a "bad guy" (well, sometimes it is) or about somebody being a "victim."
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 There's a bit of cognitive dissonance here. On the one hand, you're concerned because he's not being as responsive on a daily basis as you would like. It makes you worry he's not into you enough. I understand this concern, in my opinion though, it is not enough to break up over -- at least not yet. On the other hand he invited you to spend 4 weeks with him in Europe to meet his extended family. I assume if you had been able to join him, that would mean constant contact and just the invitation alone seems like a deepening of commitment. On the one hand, a few weeks ago you broke up with him because you thought you never really loved him enough. On the other hand you state that you worry you are getting too attached. It seems to me there is a bit of power-struggle/passive-aggressiveness on both sides. He blows hot and cold, and so do you. OO, that's exactly what puzzles me. Inviting me to spend 4 weeks with him in Europe, where it will be just the two of us together and meeting his extended family seems like he is quite serious about me. On the other hand, lack of day to day contact makes me think that he is not. As for my feelings, I have never been in love or had a healthy relationship. So I truly do not know what love is. I DO know that my feelings for him have grown. I have already explained all this to him when we got back together few weeks ago.
threebyfate Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 If you want a relationship to work, YOU have to work on it. It's not all about arranging everything so you have all of your needs met, your insecurities assuaged 100% of the time, and making sure that your feelings are protected. In fact, sticking to that program will ensure failure of a relationship. DO YOU WANT TO BE WITH THIS GUY. DO YOU TRULY HAVE DEEP FEELINGS FOR HIM? Or are your feelings only reactive, based upon how his behavior reflects upon YOU? If you really want to be with him and really do have feelings FOR HIM, then fight for the relationship and remain vulnerable through his "colder" phases rather than being immediately ready to bail. Work through the difficulties AS A COUPLE. And if it ultimately does not work the way you'd wanted it to, you walk away knowing you gave something worthwhile your best - that it was WORTH the risks you took, and though your heart may be broken, it will heal, you will have gained something, learned something, etc. If you DON'T really want to be with him, and his shortcomings are sufficient to make him an inappropriate match for you (his shortcomings, as I understand them, are that he runs "hot and cold" and he sometimes seems to blow off your stated need for daily, or more frequent, contact) you are absolutely correct to be true to yourself and say goodbye, in an honest, straightforward way, like the grown up adult woman that you are. NOT correct to either "break up" with him so he'll cry and step up his attentiveness to the level you'd like to keep you, or to start throwing up impossible to navigate emotional land mines for him to blunder into and "fail" or ultimately give up on having a HEALTHY relationship with you and break up with you. For the record, if you have represented this man and your relationship with him honestly, I strongly disagree with the advice that his failure to call you for 2 days despite your telling him that this is not acceptable to you is a HUGE red flag and a valid reason to write him off. There are two sides to every relationship issue, usually. Knowing you from LS, I would not be surprised if your behavior is sometimes very confusing to a person with whom you are in a relationship. Being upfront with one's needs is great, but sometimes the way needs are presented can be very "cornering." The guy also has his own personal challenges and issues. If he starts to feel cornered, or overwhelmed, or maybe manipulated or off balance - and he is a person who tends to "run hot and cold" as he says he is - this could be a situation where he turns to "colder" to have a moment, to re-calibrate, to see where things are. I am not defending this or "taking his side," but ES, you are not the ONLY person in a relationship who might exhibit some less than perfect behavior. He has to be perfect, while you are all over the map reacting to your own inner turmoil? Not fair.This post is one big accusation. Let's look at it another way. If ES were to take the same accusatory tone with her b/f, he'd ditch her faster than you can say "No" and he'd be so "right" to do so. So, why not live up to what you're preaching here about tolerance for another and express your concerns in a manner that's objective? Had this been your first post to ES in this accusatory manner, I wouldn't have said anything. But this is a definitive pattern with most of your posts to ES in almost every one of her threads which leads me to believe it's less about wanting to help and more about dislike or distaste of ES. There is validity in some of your posts. But as you've noticed, nit picking the crap out of her, hammering her at every opportunity isn't helpful at all. If anything, it reduces the validity in your posts down to nothing.
utterer of lies Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 OO, that's exactly what puzzles me. Inviting me to spend 4 weeks with him in Europe, where it will be just the two of us together and meeting his extended family seems like he is quite serious about me. On the other hand, lack of day to day contact makes me think that he is not. As for my feelings, I have never been in love or had a healthy relationship. So I truly do not know what love is. I DO know that my feelings for him have grown. I have already explained all this to him when we got back together few weeks ago. He is into you, that's why he invited you to europe. I think you wouldn't even be happy if he wrote you a text every 2 mins "I still love you". Because after 90 seconds, everything could have changed, right? Seriously, get a grip on yourself.
Kamille Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 I also know that if I break up with him again, it will be for the final time. So I must think carefully. Right now, there is not enough evidence to conclude anything, except that *something* doesn't feel quite right. I totally agree with you. You do need more info. I'm trying to understand what was exchanged yesterday. For One or Two days prior to yesterday, you hadn't heard from your bf. You initiated contact through FB to talk about the trip, and eventually told him, somehow, that you would like more contact. He replied with "I would like more compliments." You said: "You know what, you're right!" You went ahead and took the time to compliment him. Since then, he hasn't been in touch - where normally he would have wished you good night (but he hadn't done so for the last two or three nights). Is that about right?
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 This post is one big accusation. Let's look at it another way. If ES were to take the same accusatory tone with her b/f, he'd ditch her faster than you can say "No" and he'd be so "right" to do so. So, why not live up to what you're preaching here about tolerance for another and express your concerns in a manner that's objective? Had this been your first post to ES in this accusatory manner, I wouldn't have said anything. But this is a definitive pattern with most of your posts to ES in almost every one of her threads which leads me to believe it's less about wanting to help and more about dislike or distaste of ES. There is validity in some of your posts. But as you've noticed, nit picking the crap out of her, hammering her at every opportunity isn't helpful at all. If anything, it reduces the validity in your posts down to nothing. Thanks TBF, much appreciated. And you are right, I only skim through her posts now and don't really take anything she says seriously. Perhaps some of her advice/thoughts ARE valid but they get lost because of the overall hostile tone.
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) I totally agree with you. You do need more info. I'm trying to understand what was exchanged yesterday. For One or Two days prior to yesterday, you hadn't heard from your bf. You initiated contact through FB to talk about the trip, and eventually told him, somehow, that you would like more contact. He replied with "I would like more compliments." You said: "You know what, you're right!" You went ahead and took the time to compliment him. Since then, he hasn't been in touch - where normally he would have wished you good night (but he hadn't done so for the last two or three nights). Is that about right? Yes Kamille, that's about right. Oh except, he DID text me the night before yesterday with some lame joke about nearly burning off his eyebrows and if I will leave him if he did that....we texted back and forth and he eventually wished me good night. Nothing of substance was exchanged then. There was no contact from either side for nearly 2 days prior to that. Edited May 30, 2011 by Eternal Sunshine
Author Eternal Sunshine Posted May 30, 2011 Author Posted May 30, 2011 Kamille, do you think that pulling back and not contacting him first (not even to confirm Wednesday's plans) is a good idea at this stage?
Kamille Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 Yes Kamille, that's about right. Oh except, he DID text me the night before yesterday with some lame joke about nearly burning off his eyebrows and if I will leave him if he did that....we texted back and forth and he eventually wished me good night. Nothing of substance was exchanged then. There was no contact from either side for nearly 2 days prior to that. Kamille, do you think that pulling back and not contacting him first (not even to confirm Wednesday's plans) is a good idea at this stage? I don't know. On the one hand, I think it would reassure you if he initiated the next bit of contact. That being said, I think you're reading too much into the nearly 2 days of no contact and the absence of a good night call/text last night. It could be that since you guys had a meaningful exchange yesterday afternoon, his relationship communication needs were satisfied (plus, the fact you two talked yesterday also means he was meeting the daily contact need). So yes, in your shoes, I would probably try to wait because that is what you need. But you have to realize that by doing that, you're also setting a test for him. That an unfair, mined terrain to enter. If he doesn't respond the way you want to, don't jump to the conclusion he's proving you right. But now that he knows you would like daily contact, he'll hopefully be happy to meet your needs.
Mme. Chaucer Posted May 30, 2011 Posted May 30, 2011 MC, why are you always crapping all over ES for every, little thing she does? Ever notice that the advice you give her isn't one you enact? If you want more tolerance from her, then display it by not "cornering" her. I'm still not seeing this, sorry! And where did I ask for "more tolerance"? I am not asking for anything; nor am I "crapping on every little thing" the OP does. I posted once after six pages, said my piece (respectfully and nicely, I might add!) knowing that ES probably has me on "ignore," and that's about it. Do you honestly disagree with my position that ES, along with you, me, her boyfriend, your husband, my boyfriend, my adult daughter, and all the rest of us who really want to be in ANY vital and working relationships NEED to: give one another emotional space sometimes be pro-active, not just reactive approach other people from an honest, true - to - oneself place take time, often, to understand whether we are reacting to a dear one's behavior because they are behaving wrongly towards us, or because of our own issues and insecurities BEFORE laying it on the loved one be absolutely clear that we are not looking for fulfillment from others for needs within ourselves that are OUR responsibility to take care of sometimes assess whether our way of communicating needs or problems might need adjustment in order to be effective remember, ALWAYS, that the person in a relationship with is us a PERSON with issues, hot buttons, weaknesses, fears, whatever, just like we are? And if we are really going to be in an enduring relationship with another human being, these aspects are going to be rearing their troublesome heads and then receding now and then, from BOTH of us? I believe that these are truths about being a good friend, partner, family member - and I believe strongly that if they are too difficult, or impossible, to adhere to, maybe one should seek help. I hold myself and other functioning adults to the same standards. I don't change my tone or my values depending upon an individual's level of disfunction, as long as they are functioning on the same playing field as I am (adults who want to be in relationships with other adults, here on LS). I believe that my position is very solid and it comes from a great deal of experience, most of it earned via my OWN serious mistakes and indulgences, acceptance of the unacceptable from others, and hurt I have caused to other people - usually in the name of self-protection. I don't expect a single person to listen to my advice, but I believe it can help lots of people. It helped me when I listened to it.
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