Queen Zenobia Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 It seems like we are helping people harm themselves because we would rather not deal with finding a more difficult better answer. Scott Aside from the my more libertarian objections to outlawing sex change operations (live and let live I say), what pray tell is the "more difficult better answer"?
Afishwithabike Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Female Straight No I wouldn't date a FTM transsexual either.
utterer of lies Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Let's imagine a hypothetical condition where a person wishes to not have arms. The person really wants that. They would truly be happier if their arms were cut off. Would we call that a disease and try to help the person understand they are great the way they are? Or, would we say “Well, you've spent six months thinking about it, and you're still sure you want to have no arms. We will go ahead and do it.” Even if it turns out to be true, and for some reason the person is happier without arms, is that a good outcome? Would it be better if we replaced the arms with non-functional wings because that's what the person wanted, because that is their own mental image of themselves? It's not a hypothetical condition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Integrity_Identity_Disorder
Scottdmw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 It's not a hypothetical condition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Integrity_Identity_Disorder That is amazing. I didn't even imagine my hypothetical could be real. People who defend transsexual operations should read this article, and compare it to what they are upholding. Here's a great quote: “Symptoms of BIID sufferers are often keenly felt. The sufferer feels incomplete with four limbs, but is confident amputation will fix this. The sufferer knows exactly what part of which limb should be amputated to relieve the suffering. The sufferer has intense feelings of envy toward amputees. They often pretend, both in private and in public, that they are an amputee. The sufferer recognizes the above symptoms as being strange and unnatural. They feel alone in having these thoughts, and don't believe anyone could ever understand their urges. They may try to injure themselves to require the amputation of that limb. They generally are ashamed of their thoughts and try to hide them from others, including therapists and health care professionals.”
Scottdmw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Aside from the my more libertarian objections to outlawing sex change operations (live and let live I say), what pray tell is the "more difficult better answer"? I would say therapy--the kind that may take years to work. There is also the option of hormonal intervention the opposite way: if someone is physically a male but feels female, possibly hormones could make them feel like what they are. For those that think this is a copout or not the right answer, I'd suggest reading the quote above about Body Integrity Identity Disorder. Is the answer to that to amputate someone's arms because that's what they think they need? Or would you feel that therapy is the best answer, even if it is highly imperfect?
Queen Zenobia Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 I would say therapy--the kind that may take years to work. There is also the option of hormonal intervention the opposite way: if someone is physically a male but feels female, possibly hormones could make them feel like what they are. For those that think this is a copout or not the right answer, I'd suggest reading the quote above about Body Integrity Identity Disorder. Is the answer to that to amputate someone's arms because that's what they think they need? Or would you feel that therapy is the best answer, even if it is highly imperfect? If you're asking from a legal perspective, I think anyone should be free to do as they wish with their own bodies. The only problem with a hormone only approach is that I can imagine it would make it very difficult for someone to fit in socially with the society at large. You're too feminine for girls and too masculine (because you have male genitals) for men. Basically you'd be limited to other transsexuals or the rare person who actually is open to dating a transsexual. That too could possibly lead to suicide for some people. Now if I had a son who wanted a sex change, I really don't know how I'd feel. To be honest I think it's all just a case of "different strokes for different folks".
Mrlonelyone Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Let me tell you what's wrong with applying hormomnes one way or the other. Some people who are transgender are also intersexed... that is in some way physically not 100% male or female to begin with. Here are a few possibilities that you biological determinist should consider. Perhaps you all should read up on what's known as Androgen Insensitivity disorder. It comes in three grades. Complete Androgen Insensitivity: The result is someone with XY chromosomes but fully formed female external genitailia, no uterus. Normal or above T levels but their body is not sensitive to Testosterone. So they develope into for all intents and purposes a woman with no human intervention. Rumor has it that Jamie Lee Curtis has this condition as well as Anne Coulter. Actress Eden Atwood is confirmed to have this condition. Atwood for sure and if the rumors are true Curtis and Coulter have XY chromosomes are they men? Partial Androgen Insensitivity: The result is someone with XY Chromosomes but genitalia that are somewhere between male and female. They are often reassigned surgically at birth based on a measurement of their penis. Mild Androgen Insensitivity: The result is someone with XY Chromosomes and male genitals that look normal and are of healthy proportions yet they are either sterile or have a very low sperm count. Such people do not masculinize as normal. Most have no idea that there is anything medically wrong with them aside from low sperm count and lack of masculinization and sometimes breast growth. If I have any of these conditions it would be MAIS. It fits what I know of myself the best but I am not a doctor. Odds are many of the more natrual looking MTF transsexuals have a condition like this or... Klienfelters syndrome A condition where one has Two X chromosomes like a woman and one Y chromosome. XXY or XXXY. Such people also develop external genitalia of a male, and also do not masculinize to a normal degree. They are almost always totally sterile. What would you do with people who have such conditions sir? What right have you to decide that they are less normal and need to be made normal just so that you don't have to confront anyone different from yourself?
Scottdmw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Let me tell you what's wrong with applying hormomnes one way or the other. Some people who are transgender are also intersexed... that is in some way physically not 100% male or female to begin with. Here are a few possibilities that you biological determinist should consider. Perhaps you all should read up on what's known as Androgen Insensitivity disorder. It comes in three grades. Complete Androgen Insensitivity: The result is someone with XY chromosomes but fully formed female external genitailia, no uterus. Normal or above T levels but their body is not sensitive to Testosterone. So they develope into for all intents and purposes a woman with no human intervention. Rumor has it that Jamie Lee Curtis has this condition as well as Anne Coulter. Actress Eden Atwood is confirmed to have this condition. Atwood for sure and if the rumors are true Curtis and Coulter have XY chromosomes are they men? Partial Androgen Insensitivity: The result is someone with XY Chromosomes but genitalia that are somewhere between male and female. They are often reassigned surgically at birth based on a measurement of their penis. Mild Androgen Insensitivity: The result is someone with XY Chromosomes and male genitals that look normal and are of healthy proportions yet they are either sterile or have a very low sperm count. Such people do not masculinize as normal. Most have no idea that there is anything medically wrong with them aside from low sperm count and lack of masculinization and sometimes breast growth. If I have any of these conditions it would be MAIS. It fits what I know of myself the best but I am not a doctor. Odds are many of the more natrual looking MTF transsexuals have a condition like this or... Klienfelters syndrome A condition where one has Two X chromosomes like a woman and one Y chromosome. XXY or XXXY. Such people also develop external genitalia of a male, and also do not masculinize to a normal degree. They are almost always totally sterile. What would you do with people who have such conditions sir? What right have you to decide that they are less normal and need to be made normal just so that you don't have to confront anyone different from yourself? Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I'm not talking about legal bans or force, nor social shame or ostracism. I'm offering my opinion on what I think is going to make the people with these conditions the happiest. I'm further offering my opinion on what I think others should do in response to these people, with the end goal of maximizing their happiness. You can disagree with my opinions but I really am trying to help here. As far as the conditions you bring up, I am aware that these issues exist. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it a little more clearly, most of my opinions expressed here are directed at those who are relatively normal physically, that is they were born as a functioning male or functioning female and have the desire to switch. For the true in between cases, I am more open to the idea that surgical interventions are appropriate. If someone is a hermaphrodite or otherwise truly intermediate such as XXY, androgen insensitivity, etc., obviously they aren't one or the other to begin with, and I don't see a problem with surgically assigning gender at some point there. Scott
Scottdmw Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 If you're asking from a legal perspective, I think anyone should be free to do as they wish with their own bodies. The only problem with a hormone only approach is that I can imagine it would make it very difficult for someone to fit in socially with the society at large. You're too feminine for girls and too masculine (because you have male genitals) for men. Basically you'd be limited to other transsexuals or the rare person who actually is open to dating a transsexual. That too could possibly lead to suicide for some people. Now if I had a son who wanted a sex change, I really don't know how I'd feel. To be honest I think it's all just a case of "different strokes for different folks". Mmmmm, I guess I wasn't clear enough, but when I spoke about using hormone therapy “the other way” I meant using hormones to amplify the person’s as-born gender. That is, if a person is born male but feels they are female or should be female, I was suggesting the possibility of using male hormones to help the person feel like the gender they were born as. Note that I'm not talking in any of my posts about legal bans or any such thing, but what my opinion of the best course of action is. No more. Scott
Mrlonelyone Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Well scott Your wrong. I know people with those condtions diagnosed and confirmed. What would make them happy is to be able to be who and what they are without anyone interfering. What you wrote is what will make a heteronormative and heterosexist person like you happy. At least have the integrity to admit your bias'es sir.
Enchanted Girl Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) But it's not. The problem is that they want to be something they can never be, and operations aren't really going to help. As mentioned before, the sex change is seen as this unique, singular event that will finally make everything ok. Well, it's not. When they wake up the next day, they are still themselves. Depression and all the other psychological problems don't just disappear. It's not that easy. You blame society - but most their problems are not caused by external factors. There's this study that shows that one year after winning the lottery and one year after becoming a quadriplegic, people are as happy as they were before that event. Why should this be any different? No, actually, that's how only YOU see it and how people who don't know what they are talking about see it. People who actually get sex changes are educated on the process and know its not a singular event, but a process both in mind and body, that they must go through to get there as I've explained to you already before. Even if you take out all the therapy involved, in preparation, during, and afterwards, its still a process, of living as a woman six months, taking hormones to prepare yourself further about how it feels like to be a woman, then the surgeries come. Sometimes you need more than one on your genitals and sometimes they get breast implants or breast removal surgery (depending on which direction they are going) as well. And can you please quote these studies? Because I remember reading about Joni Eareckson Tada, a famous Christian quadreplegic and her struggle. She was not happy in a year over the fact that she'd never feel what sex was like, couldn't play sports like she used to, was a burden on others, and had to be flipped over periodically by cranky nurses who abused her in the home she was living in. And the fact that she couldn't even move her limbs to kill herself! She was pretty miserable and getting happy again was a struggle. You can live a happy full life as a quadreplegic, but to say their struggle is easier to get through than a sex change and that they don't get depressed over it is to minimize the bravery and strength someone must display to conquer something like that and come out on top. Actually, for some people, sexual orientation is a fluid concept and can change over time (this is even acknowledged by the APA, in case you think I'm making this up). Admittedly, I'm not an expert on transsexuals, but it would seem logical that their self-image as either male or female could also be fluid. Just because one feels that he is a woman trapped in a man's body, doesn't mean that person will always feel that way. I wouldn't be surprised if this was POSSIBLE, but those people are the kind who don't go through with the surgery. Because if you have any doubt in your mind about it, then its not going to feel worth the social rejection and pain you must suffer in order to have it. Fair enough. It depends on the definition of disease. What we have here is a “condition” for want of a better word that gives people a strong desire to alter their body in such a way that they won't be able to have children. In anorexia, a person has a strong desire to be thinner, even to an extremely unhealthy level. The person believes they are fat when they are not. Their mental picture of their own body does not conform to reality. The person may do things that are self-harmful in an effort to make their body conform to their desired image of it. Other people get into “cutting” where they slice open their skin and intentionally mutilate themselves. It makes them happier (or less unhappy) to do so. I think most people agree that those two are diseases. I understand you feel that transgender surgery is different because it will hopefully (not for certain) make the recipients happier. For me though I'm not sure why we wouldn't call this a disease. Let's imagine a hypothetical condition where a person wishes to not have arms. The person really wants that. They would truly be happier if their arms were cut off. Would we call that a disease and try to help the person understand they are great the way they are? Or, would we say “Well, you've spent six months thinking about it, and you're still sure you want to have no arms. We will go ahead and do it.” Even if it turns out to be true, and for some reason the person is happier without arms, is that a good outcome? Would it be better if we replaced the arms with non-functional wings because that's what the person wanted, because that is their own mental image of themselves? It's very hard for me to see the difference between that and transgender surgery. It seems like we are helping people harm themselves because we would rather not deal with finding a more difficult better answer. Scott So . . . When you watch porn do you still display these same ideals? Do you look at those girls with their big fake boobs that they got just to fit your standard of beauty and exit the page in disgust? Because every surgery is risky. It's painful. There can be complications. And its expensive. Just like sex changes. In fact, some of these girls get surgeries on their genitals just like people who get sex changes do. And these girls got surgeries just to SEXUALLY PLEASE someone. Or just to feel better about their bodies, like you mention. A lot of girls get plastic surgery because they are insecure about their bodies and see imperfections that aren't there and get the surgery because of it. Just like people who get sex changes and amputations. Are you going to judge everyone who gets plastic surgery in this same way? Or is it more of a case by case basis? Because I don't think plastic surgery is bad in and of itself. I think people should have the right to choose to have it if it will make them feel better about themselves. Some people need it after all. Some people are born with severe physical deformities that make people point and laugh at them. They just want to fit in and not be gawked at while at the story and plastic surgery can do this. But some people become addicted to it and misuse it. Instead of addressing the issues on the inside, they only address the outside and this is the point you are trying to make and why its invalid. Transsexuals suffer a lot. They hate their bodies. People hate them for dressing up and behaving the way they want to. They are treated like freaks. Getting surgery will not fix this and it will not cure the world of judging them, BUT it will fix part of it. It will allow them to look down at themselves and see the parts they feel belong there and the rest must be dealt with with therapy. I agree with you up to a point. Surgery in and of itself will not help these people and I never thought it would, but therapy and surgery possibly can. I was picked on and made fun of a lot of my life, but for me it was because I was a nerd. It was just who I was, but no one could accept me for it. And I still have baggage from it. Even though a lot of people say I'm pretty now and although I'm still a nerd on the inside, I don't look it on the outside, the pain is still there. Why? Because people hurt me and I still have to deal with it and might have to struggle with it the rest of my life. But if I continued to be as awkward as I was in school in appearance, it wouldn't have helped me with the problem. I would just have continued to be rejected. A combination of physically changing myself and mentally dealing with the scars my life caused me is how I've been dealing with it. Neither option cures me fully by itself. I would say therapy--the kind that may take years to work. There is also the option of hormonal intervention the opposite way: if someone is physically a male but feels female, possibly hormones could make them feel like what they are. For those that think this is a copout or not the right answer, I'd suggest reading the quote above about Body Integrity Identity Disorder. Is the answer to that to amputate someone's arms because that's what they think they need? Or would you feel that therapy is the best answer, even if it is highly imperfect? It's hard for me to word this the right way. Amputees have trouble working jobs and taking care of themselves in the same way that the rest of us do. They must re-learn everything and struggle through a lot of things. I admire them and think they are strong people, but their lives can be really hard. While when you get a sex change, is it really that big of deal to lose the ability to have babies? People get surgeries to get rid of this ability all the time and the world is overpopulated. While I'd say on the other hand, its pretty much necessary to have a job and be able to take care of yourself. Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I'm not talking about legal bans or force, nor social shame or ostracism. I'm offering my opinion on what I think is going to make the people with these conditions the happiest. I'm further offering my opinion on what I think others should do in response to these people, with the end goal of maximizing their happiness. You can disagree with my opinions but I really am trying to help here. As far as the conditions you bring up, I am aware that these issues exist. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it a little more clearly, most of my opinions expressed here are directed at those who are relatively normal physically, that is they were born as a functioning male or functioning female and have the desire to switch. For the true in between cases, I am more open to the idea that surgical interventions are appropriate. If someone is a hermaphrodite or otherwise truly intermediate such as XXY, androgen insensitivity, etc., obviously they aren't one or the other to begin with, and I don't see a problem with surgically assigning gender at some point there. Scott Except my friend was a hermaphrodite who was raised as a guy, but in reality was a girl and if doctors treated these kinds of disorders this way, then she'd be a man right now and on pills to help her with her hormonal disorder and desire to be a woman. You don't seem to understand that for the most part all these people get treated the same. She was rejected by people and her family the same. She was rejected by boyfriends the same way. People say this in theory, but when they actually meet people and know people who can't fit cleanly into one gender or another the way they'd like them to, they start freaking out and judging them in all the same ways. My friend who was a hermaphrodite went to therapy groups with transsexuals. They all go through the same struggles. Edited June 1, 2011 by Enchanted Girl
utterer of lies Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 No, actually, that's how only YOU see it and how people who don't know what they are talking about see it. Thanks for the insult - please refrain from that in future. People who actually get sex changes are educated on the process and know its not a singular event, but a process both in mind and body, that they must go through to get there as I've explained to you already before. Well the FTM transsexual that was a friend of my ex certainly believed that. He was living as a man for many years already but still had all these hopes. And can you please quote these studies? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/690806 You can live a happy full life as a quadreplegic, but to say their struggle is easier to get through than a sex change and that they don't get depressed over it is to minimize the bravery and strength someone must display to conquer something like that and come out on top. But that's not how people work. People prone to depression will be depressed, and people prone to happiness will be generally happy, even after life-changing events. Of course, some people can't take it, but most will - a testament to the resilience of humans. I wouldn't be surprised if this was POSSIBLE, but those people are the kind who don't go through with the surgery. Because if you have any doubt in your mind about it, then its not going to feel worth the social rejection and pain you must suffer in order to have it. Oh come on, most transsexuals will cross-dress before the op and already feel rejected and that they are pushed out of society without operation. And these girls got surgeries just to SEXUALLY PLEASE someone. Or just to feel better about their bodies, like you mention. No - it's an investment to increase the income from their profession. Are you going to judge everyone who gets plastic surgery in this same way? Or is it more of a case by case basis? Because I don't think plastic surgery is bad in and of itself. I think people should have the right to choose to have it if it will make them feel better about themselves. This is such an american attitude. 'Lets fix the problem by fixing the symptoms.' Transsexuals suffer a lot. They hate their bodies. People hate them for dressing up and behaving the way they want to. They are treated like freaks. They are freaks. Look up the definition. And surgery won't change that - they are rejected before the operation, and rejected afterwards. I agree with you up to a point. Surgery in and of itself will not help these people and I never thought it would, but therapy and surgery possibly can. Yes, and that is because therapy is the solution, not surgery. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth While when you get a sex change, is it really that big of deal to lose the ability to have babies? People get surgeries to get rid of this ability all the time and the world is overpopulated. While I'd say on the other hand, its pretty much necessary to have a job and be able to take care of yourself. So your point is that it's ok to cripple oneself for happiness, but only if your income stays stable?
Scottdmw Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Well scott Your wrong. I know people with those condtions diagnosed and confirmed. What would make them happy is to be able to be who and what they are without anyone interfering. What you wrote is what will make a heteronormative and heterosexist person like you happy. At least have the integrity to admit your bias'es sir. They think that would make them happy, just like the people with BIID think they would be happier if someone cut off their leg. Alcoholics think they would be happier if they are allowed to continue drinking. Do you have any evidence that they will actually be happier? By that, I mean a study that compares two groups of similar people, one group gets the surgery and the other doesn't. That would be evidence. Otherwise you are just talking about hopes.
utterer of lies Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Do you have any evidence that they will actually be happier? By that, I mean a study that compares two groups of similar people, one group gets the surgery and the other doesn't. That would be evidence. Otherwise you are just talking about hopes. Read this link (I already posted it above) http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth They show that surgery does NOT make people happier.
Scottdmw Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 So . . . When you watch porn do you still display these same ideals? Do you look at those girls with their big fake boobs that they got just to fit your standard of beauty and exit the page in disgust? Because every surgery is risky. It's painful. There can be complications. And its expensive. Just like sex changes. In fact, some of these girls get surgeries on their genitals just like people who get sex changes do. And these girls got surgeries just to SEXUALLY PLEASE someone. Or just to feel better about their bodies, like you mention. A lot of girls get plastic surgery because they are insecure about their bodies and see imperfections that aren't there and get the surgery because of it. Just like people who get sex changes and amputations. I try very hard not to watch porn at all. I think it's harmful for me and for the people who make it. I don't always succeed, but I wish that people did not get the surgeries you are talking about here either. They are harming and risking themselves, albeit to a lesser extent than TS surgery. Are you going to judge everyone who gets plastic surgery in this same way? Or is it more of a case by case basis? Because I don't think plastic surgery is bad in and of itself. I think people should have the right to choose to have it if it will make them feel better about themselves. Some people need it after all. Some people are born with severe physical deformities that make people point and laugh at them. They just want to fit in and not be gawked at while at the story and plastic surgery can do this. But some people become addicted to it and misuse it. Instead of addressing the issues on the inside, they only address the outside and this is the point you are trying to make and why its invalid. Most of the time plastic surgery does not destroy a significant biological function, so I see it as less of a problem then TS surgery. I would still encourage people not to get it for frivolous reasons. However, certainly people who are born with deformities whether severe or not could be helped by plastic surgery. I do think that in general it's a bad idea to try to fix a psychological issue with surgery. It's a Band-Aid solution at best. Either people end up realizing that the surgery didn't fix their REAL problem-- their dissatisfaction with themselves, and they go on to fix that the right way, or they decide that they just need more surgery and keep getting it. Transsexuals suffer a lot. They hate their bodies. People hate them for dressing up and behaving the way they want to. They are treated like freaks. Getting surgery will not fix this and it will not cure the world of judging them, BUT it will fix part of it. It will allow them to look down at themselves and see the parts they feel belong there and the rest must be dealt with with therapy. Do you have any evidence that it makes them happier? As I alluded to in my post above, this would be a scientific study where you took two groups and gave surgery to half to compare outcomes. Without that, all you have is the hope that it might make them better, weighed against the definite loss of fertility and certain risk of surgery. You can point to examples where people say it made them happier, but I can point to examples where people clearly did not become happy. Again, in the end people are going to get the surgery if they want. I'm not going to stop them. But, I'm not sure that I or others should be approving them or encouraging them towards it in the belief that it will make them happier, without actual evidence that that's true, and with reason to believe it may be completely wrong. I agree with you up to a point. Surgery in and of itself will not help these people and I never thought it would, but therapy and surgery possibly can. I was picked on and made fun of a lot of my life, but for me it was because I was a nerd. It was just who I was, but no one could accept me for it. And I still have baggage from it. Even though a lot of people say I'm pretty now and although I'm still a nerd on the inside, I don't look it on the outside, the pain is still there. Why? Because people hurt me and I still have to deal with it and might have to struggle with it the rest of my life. But if I continued to be as awkward as I was in school in appearance, it wouldn't have helped me with the problem. I would just have continued to be rejected. A combination of physically changing myself and mentally dealing with the scars my life caused me is how I've been dealing with it. Neither option cures me fully by itself. I experienced some of this too. It's not that I don't have sympathy for people who are judged or picked on. But, sometimes people want things that are not good for them. They may think those things are going to help them, but it doesn't mean that we should give it to them because they've been picked on or suffered. It's hard for me to word this the right way. Amputees have trouble working jobs and taking care of themselves in the same way that the rest of us do. They must re-learn everything and struggle through a lot of things. I admire them and think they are strong people, but their lives can be really hard. While when you get a sex change, is it really that big of deal to lose the ability to have babies? People get surgeries to get rid of this ability all the time and the world is overpopulated. While I'd say on the other hand, its pretty much necessary to have a job and be able to take care of yourself. One could argue that either losing a limb or losing the ability to have babies is more important, it depends on what a person considers important. Some people go from not wanting babies at all at a younger age to suffering serious distress when they are older because they really really want one and can't. A person doesn't always know how they're going to feel later. My point was they are both healthy biological functions. You have two conditions where a person strongly wants surgical alteration of their body so that their body will fit their mental image of it, at the cost of destroying part of its function. I don't see a real difference between them. It sounds like you are willing to admit that BIID is a disease, but it's quite a difficult distinction you have to draw then to make the desire for TS surgery to be not a disease. Except my friend was a hermaphrodite who was raised as a guy, but in reality was a girl and if doctors treated these kinds of disorders this way, then she'd be a man right now and on pills to help her with her hormonal disorder and desire to be a woman. You don't seem to understand that for the most part all these people get treated the same. She was rejected by people and her family the same. She was rejected by boyfriends the same way. People say this in theory, but when they actually meet people and know people who can't fit cleanly into one gender or another the way they'd like them to, they start freaking out and judging them in all the same ways. My friend who was a hermaphrodite went to therapy groups with transsexuals. They all go through the same struggles. Like I said, for cases like your friend I would be open to the idea that surgery is appropriate. The doctor who originally saw her did not do a good job. I understand that she got treated the same as others, and went through a lot of pain. I would help that if I could. But, I don't think the answer is to say that anything goes with regard to surgery that removes healthy functioning body parts to replace them with only partly functional ones. Scott
Mme. Chaucer Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 I posted about a friend who committed suicide after the long awaited surgery did not make her "happy" at last. I also know more than one person who was fine after surgery. (I grew up in San Francisco and amongst the fringe elements of society there, which includes a lot of sexually "out of the mainstream" people). It was not that the surgery made them fine. It was that they were okay with themselves and had a good level of self awareness that was NOT 100% focussed on their gender and body BEFORE they underwent the surgery. Also, they had (have) real friends and a role in their community / society. In my experience, quite a few of the transgendered, inter-sexed, whatever, people I've known have developed, probably as an unfortunate result of growing up with their particular challenges , into people who were so extremely self involved and fascinated by themselves and their own psychology and physiology that they truly were not able to be real friends or partners to any other people. They've seemed almost narcissistic (not as in a "NPD," but just in the sense that they were completely self absorbed on many levels). That makes for a tremendously lonely life, even if your genitals end up matching your gender identity through hormone therapy and ultimately, surgery. For the record, I absolutely believe with no shred of doubt that there are people born with physical sex characteristics that DO NOT match who they really are, gender-wise. I believe that it is cruel and inhumane to propose that these people would somehow be "better off" to learn how to live with themselves as they were born, since our modern world does provide alternatives. I just don't believe that the alternatives are always the answer that brings "happiness."
cerridwen Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Female. Straight. No. A part of me feels disappointed at my reaction. As though I SHOULD be able to transcend initial reactions and focus on the qualities of the person instead. But, I can't.
Mrlonelyone Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Female. Straight. No. A part of me feels disappointed at my reaction. As though I SHOULD be able to transcend initial reactions and focus on the qualities of the person instead. But, I can't. Oh I don't know about that. Since there is not a person with qualities to focus on.... what can you focus on? You are presented with nothing more than perhaps a stereotype that the media peddles.
Scottdmw Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 For the record, I absolutely believe with no shred of doubt that there are people born with physical sex characteristics that DO NOT match who they really are, gender-wise. I believe that it is cruel and inhumane to propose that these people would somehow be "better off" to learn how to live with themselves as they were born, since our modern world does provide alternatives. I just don't believe that the alternatives are always the answer that brings "happiness." In my opinion, I don't see how it's cruel or inhumane to offer suggestions that are sincere and motivated by a desire to help someone. If the person doesn't want to take your advice, they don't have to. People are adults, they aren't going to melt if they hear someone offer a different idea. People don't usually grow if they are kept away from criticism. I know you want to help protect people from judgementalism and pressure. But, what if you're wrong, even though you are apparently certain beyond a doubt you aren't?
cerridwen Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Oh I don't know about that. Since there is not a person with qualities to focus on.... what can you focus on? You are presented with nothing more than perhaps a stereotype that the media peddles. Mmm, yes. I hear you. I suppose what I should have written was "I feel a bit disappointed in myself that I can't say 'maybe' instead of 'no'. I would like to think upon meeting such an individual, I'd consider them first as a person, and not the gender they once were." Not sure if that clears it up.
Mrlonelyone Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 cerridwen I see. Well it's kind of like how I feel about vegan and vegitarian type people. I have met people I did not know were vegies... liked them... then found out latter in passing they were veggies. While if the first thing I know about a person is their views on meat eating then I generally don't like them. Which is not fair and based on past bad experiences (that vegitarians and especially vegans are preechy and feel superior and like to lecture people....kind of like Hitler who was one of them.) I would even decalre that I would rather eat pork spareribs at a Ku Klux Klan rally than eat tofu. Kinda like that.
Ross MwcFan Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I might give her a chance, as long as she totally looks, sounds, and comes across 100% woman.
Ross MwcFan Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Mmm, yes. I hear you. I suppose what I should have written was "I feel a bit disappointed in myself that I can't say 'maybe' instead of 'no'. I would like to think upon meeting such an individual, I'd consider them first as a person, and not the gender they once were." Not sure if that clears it up. I think totally understandable that a lot of people, or most people would be put off and would say no, because of knowing the person used to physically be the opposite gender.
AstroZombie138 Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Male, Straight, No I have difficulty enough dating girls with hairier arms than me.
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