jwi71 Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 Normal people cheat - I'm not talking about egoists or serial cheaters here - because they have essential needs unmet. If we were ever legitimate, we have discussed the importance of meeting one another's needs on all levels. This is EXACTLY why people cheat - unmet needs. But that in and of itself is not sufficient. One party has to be willing to cheat to get those needs met. This isn't an attack Cabin on you or your MM, just pointing out that a cheater has unmet needs and decides to cheat to get them fulfilled. I hope the communication IF you get D and then IF you get M to him is much better. Some might ask why we don't just do that with our MPs then? Well, my H is not capable of meeting many of my needs -- not intellectually (sounds snobby, but it's true), not emotionally, and not physically. We just don't have "it", you know? With my AP, the connection was instantaneous and overwhelming. I understand. We all do. And no one here or even IRL will judge you for that. What I don't get is MC for D. Its nuts. I know I have said it before, just file for D already on the grounds of irreconcilable differences. Then, you can put your D in therapy to cope with her new life. It just makes more sense to me. If I may, what is your plan for D? When are you filing? Are you waiting to file THEN put your D in therapy? Do you have a date set? Has your D met your MM - thus requiring some fancy lying to explain how he went from friend to daddy? Have you an idea on how you will introduce your MM into your D's life if they have not yet met? What steps are you taking to get D and help your D adjust to her new life? What steps are you taking to be with your MM legitimately? If not...why not? Why not take steps to make it happen instead of "MC to end my M"? Hired a lawyer yet? Again, I'm not attacking you at all, just wondering if you are doing anything besides dream of this life with your MM? It's funny to me that there are relatively few success stories on LS about As becoming legitimate. I personally now know of 11 couples that began as APs while one or both partners were married. And I don't know a ton of people or anything, so I think it happens much more than people realize. Successful As turned into real relationships likely don't publicize how it happened, so many times I think people just don't know. That may very well be true. But aren't talking about them, we are talking about you. Again, and I sound like a broken record I know, what actions are you taking to join that extensive group of M's that began as A's? My AP and I discuss our options at length - his biggest worry is doing irreparable damage to his children and always feeling that his decision to be happy in love will harm them dramatically. I certainly don't want to do harm to his children, or my D either. Maybe having each of you put your children in therapy to help them cope with lives after D would be a start. And where do you get the idea that D simply destroys a child's ability to be successful later in life? Having gone through a D I initiated with two children under 5, I had those fears too. about one year of intense play therapy later, they had adjusted and lead very normal lives. I, in my research of this, found NO psychologists that said a D destroys their ability to live happy, healthy, normal lives. Why don't you make an appointment for your D with one and find out versus some guy on an internet forum? But he said that staying in his marriage would ONLY be for this children, which both of our MCs have said is a bad idea. In the end, he'd end up leaving when they grow up, and he'd have wasted all that time. Plus the MC said kids sense that burden, they sense the lack of a real relationship between their parents. Where have we heard this before on LS? The only thing I can say is: find a child psychologist and ask them. See what they say. (Hint: its not what he says) When crying one night to him about the pain of wanting what's best for our children (without ever being able to say for sure what that is) and what's best for everyone involved (which many of you know isn't nearly as simple as some people like to think), my AP said that if he ends up spending his life apart from me, he's going to end up like Heath Ledger's character in Brokeback Mountain at the end... a broken man living a small life void of the joy only one's soul partner can truly ever fill. Sorry, but Cabin, I know you are smart. It comes through in your postings. What else comes through your postings is lost in the fog. You are taking no real steps to leave, instead you are in MC (to leave). Again, I challenge you: take a decisive and overt action to leaving your H if you are not happy. Stop taking ambiguous steps (MC for the intent to D?). Stop living in affairyland and take ACTION. No amount of MC will make your H smarter, or more career oriented or anything else where he fails to meet your expectations. You are just dragging out the inevitable. And using your D as the excuse to NOT act. How cowardly is that? YOu can't leave because it will devastate your D? Why don;t you consult, with your H of course, a child psychologist and ASK that person how D affects kids. What's stopping you? I mean, that seems like a prudent step to take right? One alternative, is to take strong, decisive steps to IMPROVE your M. But you say that's not a realistic possibility. And it happens, sometimes a M gets so "bad" that it can't be saved. Then tell your H that your M is open. That he too can have a lover on the side. Why deny him that? Are you that selfish to deny him what you take for yourself? I'm beginning to get a sense that neither you or your MM will EVER take ANY STEPS to improve anything. That's just so sad to me. Anyways...I hope you consider what I say, maybe even answer a few questions I have - at least to yourself anyway.
Glinda Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 It's funny to me that there are relatively few success stories on LS about As becoming legitimate. I personally now know of 11 couples that began as APs while one or both partners were married. And I don't know a ton of people or anything, so I think it happens much more than people realize. Successful As turned into real relationships likely don't publicize how it happened, so many times I think people just don't know.Birds of a feather. Ever considered hanging with a different crowd?
Glinda Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 How sad Out of the affair I still use texts a lot, occasionally even when in the same room.Have you two considered working on your communication skills?
Author Cabin Posted May 28, 2011 Author Posted May 28, 2011 What I don't get is MC for D. Its nuts. I know I have said it before, just file for D already on the grounds of irreconcilable differences. Then, you can put your D in therapy to cope with her new life. The counselling we have been getting - though initially for the purpose of staying together - has been focusing on how to split in the most healthy way for the three of us (H, me and D). The counsellor doesn't think we should continue in our marriage unless we BOTH REALLY WANT it, and neither of us really do... but we're both afraid of course! Honestly, it may not be conventional, but the way we have approached counselling has been a good experience for both of us, so that's worth something. If I may, what is your plan for D? When are you filing? Are you waiting to file THEN put your D in therapy? Do you have a date set? My H is planning to move out and get an apartment in the summer. We have to be physically separated for one year before we can divorce legally (not sure if that is common everywhere). We are not planning to use lawyers. We are agreeing to the terms very amicably, so why drain the pocketbook on lawyers we don't need? Has your D met your MM - thus requiring some fancy lying to explain how he went from friend to daddy? Have you an idea on how you will introduce your MM into your D's life if they have not yet met? Everyone involved has met. Me with his family, his family with mine, etc. His kids have played with my D and our families have socialized in larger groups together. Yes that's a bit sticky - but at least we know what we're dealing with. He will never be "daddy" because my D has a terrific one already, but she might have a great step-dad who would love her like one of his own. She's not even 3 yet, so there's not going to be therapy for her at this point... What steps are you taking to be with your MM legitimately? I'm going to be separating this summer. MM is in counselling with his W for the same purposes.... to expose the fundamental incompatibility and ease the transition for separation. The sticking point for him is if she uses their children as ammunition against him. He is afraid that in anger or hurt she will use the children in any way she can to keep him around (he's seen some evidence of this when he talks about moving out/co-parenting/not being together). He said that he will not put his kids in a position of being emotional ping-pong balls, which means ultimately he may stay stuck in his M for his kids. Cabin, I know you are smart. It comes through in your postings. What else comes through your postings is lost in the fog. You are taking no real steps to leave, instead you are in MC (to leave). Again, I challenge you: take a decisive and overt action to leaving your H if you are not happy. Stop taking ambiguous steps (MC for the intent to D?). Stop living in affairyland and take ACTION. No amount of MC will make your H smarter, or more career oriented or anything else where he fails to meet your expectations. You are just dragging out the inevitable. We're both in new territory here. We're both afraid of doing real harm to the ones we love. But we might both more afraid to have found this and not act on it. We don't want to be sitting around in our old age wishing we'd gone for it. We also don't want to drag this A our for years and years and suffer the pain of lies, half-lives, and hurting our spouses. We both know that if we don't commit to ACTION soon, it will be over forever. I will not be in the A if I am single and he is not. He knows that. Then tell your H that your M is open. That he too can have a lover on the side. Why deny him that? Are you that selfish to deny him what you take for yourself? Actually, I did offer this to my H about four months ago... but he is a good man (better than me I guess) and he wants the full package of a relationship. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever be able to give him that... Anyways...I hope you consider what I say, maybe even answer a few questions I have - at least to yourself anyway. No, thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on the issues at play in my situation.
Author Cabin Posted May 28, 2011 Author Posted May 28, 2011 Birds of a feather. Ever considered hanging with a different crowd? You know, this comment is so silly I almost didn't reply, but... if you take a look at this diverse crowd (distributed across age groups, social groups and geography!) please be clear I don't "hang" with most of them... I just happen to know their situations: -My friend's dad (left W in early 40s with two teens at home / with OW for 20 years now) -My husband's friend's dad (left W in late 40s with three teens at home / with OW for 15 years now) -My late 30's colleague (left H and AP left W five years ago) -My early 40s colleague (left H and AP left W + 2 kids 10 years ago) -My H's best friend (left W and one child in mid-30s to marry AP two years ago) -My friend's parents (had an A for 7 years while each married to other people before leaving their M for one another) -My colleague's sister (married her AP after a two year affair, he left his W and three kids - both were mid 30s) -My babysitter's dad (left W after 20 years of M for his AP who was also married, last year) -My male colleague late 30s (left W and took custody of his two kids, married AP the following year, four years ago) -My friend's wife (late 20s, she had a one year A and left him for her AP last year) -My neighbours (I'm a bit angry I even know this... why should I?) who have been married for over 30 years but left first marriages to be together before any kids came along.
Silly_Girl Posted May 28, 2011 Posted May 28, 2011 How sad [/b]Have you two considered working on your communication skills? There's plenty of proper communication. This is in addition to, NOT instead of
thissecretgirl Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 I always pity the many mistresses who rely on texting or emails or webcams as their communication. How sad Actually for me this was one of the most positive parts. Obviously apart from the first year when it was long distance this wasnt the sole means of contact or communication, but actually from my experience, there is a lot to be said for online communication, particularly talking through msn. We would sit for hours and talk every day, focusing on eachother; sharing, laughing and bonding. When I was married, I cant recall ever sitting down with my husband and focusing on 'us' for that length of time; most days not even for an hour. More often than not he would be in one room watching the football and I would be in another doing something else. Sure we chatted, but we never really talked. Now that was sad. Now I see someone who works away for 9 days out of a fortnight and we rely on phone and msn when he is away. Again, we chat for hours; maybe I am a big talker lol:o I love it.
Silly_Girl Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 TSG: I miss MSN! We don't tend to talk that way much now but, if you have a rapport with someone (one of my best friends and I use it due to distance) it can be a lot of fun and actually quite intimate.
Summer Breeze Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 Someone said something about feeling sorry for OP who do a lot of texting. I had to laugh at that because one of the things she said when we talked was that he never texted her like he did me. Texts aren't to be dismissed. When you have a good rapport it's good fun to banter back and forth about a lot of different things. We used to spend close to a week together a month and some of our most fun texts were when we were at the same place but maybe shopping in different stores or he was playing golf with friends and I was taking a walk on a beach. When we had the 2 or 3 weeks between we'd text and email to keep up on each others days. We spoke every day as well but the written word was an incredible tool for us.
Breezy Trousers Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 (edited) I am not worried about either of us cheating if we were a legitimate couple. Neither of us has cheated on anyone in the past, and I firmly believe that if we hadn't met each other, we wouldn't have cheated. We take care of each other emotionally (and physically of course) in very natural, magnetic-chemistry kind of ways and neither of us ever had or have this in our mutual marriages. But neither of us knew any better when we selected our MPs. Normal people cheat - I'm not talking about egoists or serial cheaters here - because they have essential needs unmet. If we were ever legitimate, we have discussed the importance of meeting one another's needs on all levels. Cabin, I remember when I used to believe that too. Until you've been cheated on, I suppose it's natural to make these assumptions. Affairs are not about meeting needs, though we all love to tell that story. Affairs are always about the person having the affair -- doesn't matter if he or she is a serial cheater or not. I learned that when my husband -- who I KNEW would never cheat on me --had his second affair in 2001. I could not have worked harder on the marriage than I did between affair no. 1 and no. 2. We had a strong connection and were having great sex. (And, yes, not bragging, but it was obvious I was much more physically attractive than OW.) Yet affair no. 2 still happened. Over the years, my husband has insisted that the affairs have nothing to do with the spouse or the marriage. He could have easily blamed me, but he refused to. He took 100% responsibility. Still, I never quite believed him until I was tempted with my own affair in 2008. Then I knew. I guess, as with everything else, you can't know this until you've actually experienced it. Until then, all we know are our philosophies and concepts. Life has a funny way of blowing up our concepts. Be very careful if this proceeds into a marriage. It's wise to at least entertain the possibility that one of you will choose to have another affair once you have a day-to-day relationship that extends into years. To pretend otherwise is very naive. Naive can get you hurt. I highly recommend Susan Cheever's memoir, "Desire." No one writes on their wish list, "One day I hope to be a cheater." Until I met MM, I was confident I would have never been a cheater. Very few of us ever thought we'd end up on this forum. That shows you that we never know what life has in store for us, despite our assumptions. P.S. People are not here to cater to our needs. But that's another thread for another time. Edited May 29, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
Silly_Girl Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 Someone said something about feeling sorry for OP who do a lot of texting. I had to laugh at that because one of the things she said when we talked was that he never texted her like he did me. Texts aren't to be dismissed. When you have a good rapport it's good fun to banter back and forth about a lot of different things. We used to spend close to a week together a month and some of our most fun texts were when we were at the same place but maybe shopping in different stores or he was playing golf with friends and I was taking a walk on a beach. When we had the 2 or 3 weeks between we'd text and email to keep up on each others days. We spoke every day as well but the written word was an incredible tool for us. Texts are brill aren't they? I think there's two people in my world I REALLY enjoy texting and I find it so rewarding. It's quite unique. I remember sending my first text message, when I was 18, to tell a colleague which pub we were in. Can't believe how valuable texting can be, all these years later
Emile1982 Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 Now you will have your new website online and you’re keen to begin making some sales! However, how will you make gross sales for those who shouldn't have high volumes of tourists to your web site?
jwi71 Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 The counselling we have been getting - though initially for the purpose of staying together - has been focusing on how to split in the most healthy way for the three of us (H, me and D). The counsellor doesn't think we should continue in our marriage unless we BOTH REALLY WANT it, and neither of us really do... but we're both afraid of course! Honestly, it may not be conventional, but the way we have approached counselling has been a good experience for both of us, so that's worth something. Then I stand corrected - its a problem with assumption ya know Is your MC telling you your D will be seriously and irrevocably harmed? Not very likely. What I was told, what I read from plenty of sources is: Kids need INVOLVED parents, not married ones. Yeah, D can be scary. But, its also very liberating (no pun intended). My H is planning to move out and get an apartment in the summer. We have to be physically separated for one year before we can divorce legally (not sure if that is common everywhere). We are not planning to use lawyers. We are agreeing to the terms very amicably, so why drain the pocketbook on lawyers we don't need? That's true - and it isn't. Ask your lawyer if you can D immediately due to infidelity. I PROMISE your state has a waiver for this. That's right, admit your A and then file on grounds of adultery - this, I PROMISE, will waive the one year separation and you can be D in weeks, not a year (or more). And HIRE A LAWYER. Don't be so stupid (yes, I said it) to NOT hire a lawyer. Never ever enter a contract, any contract, without having legal advice. You NEED a professional to give you professional advice and to PROTECT YOUR INTERESTS. Retaining a lawyer doesn't mean you two will slug it out in court, it simply means you (perhaps you both) have counsel with verbiage, law you may not be aware of and so on. Its the BEST money you will EVER spend. And, if you are worried that your A will be a problem in your D - ask the lawyer. It won't be. Courts don't give a rat's azz if you had one. It might make your H mad and he maybe "more difficult" but legally, it means squat. Go get informed. I don't mean to suggest you are stupid, just ignorant of D law. Best money you will spend. Everyone involved has met. Me with his family, his family with mine, etc. His kids have played with my D and our families have socialized in larger groups together. Yes that's a bit sticky - but at least we know what we're dealing with. He will never be "daddy" because my D has a terrific one already, but she might have a great step-dad who would love her like one of his own. She's not even 3 yet, so there's not going to be therapy for her at this point... I'd disagree with no play therapy either. My son was 2 when I D my xWW and he had anger issues for nearly a year. He also had abandonment issues (still does in fact, but its much better). And no, the issues weren't obvious...but the signs were there - I could tell something was "off" - ever so slightly. I knew it for certain within the first four sessions - when I watched him paint through one-way mirror. I cried like a little girl at them. Don't underestimate a 2 year olds ability to learn and perceive the world around them - they just don't have the tools to show it. And...does this mean your parents and siblings know you are having an A and your H doesn't? Does that hold true for him as well? And I'm GLAD to hear you step up for your stbxh. I'm glad you believe he is a good father and won't try to "take" your D from him. Its so very painful to not have your kids around for a man. Is for me anyway. I'm going to be separating this summer. MM is in counselling with his W for the same purposes.... to expose the fundamental incompatibility and ease the transition for separation. The sticking point for him is if she uses their children as ammunition against him. He is afraid that in anger or hurt she will use the children in any way she can to keep him around (he's seen some evidence of this when he talks about moving out/co-parenting/not being together). He said that he will not put his kids in a position of being emotional ping-pong balls, which means ultimately he may stay stuck in his M for his kids. Well then what? Still be the OW? What will you tell your D? I'm guessing she will ask about him and her friends (his kids)? And, he won't leave. I think you sense it too. We're both in new territory here. We're both afraid of doing real harm to the ones we love. But we might both more afraid to have found this and not act on it. We don't want to be sitting around in our old age wishing we'd gone for it. We also don't want to drag this A our for years and years and suffer the pain of lies, half-lives, and hurting our spouses. We both know that if we don't commit to ACTION soon, it will be over forever. I will not be in the A if I am single and he is not. He knows that. I think this is a bit on fantasy on your part. I see BOTH of you hiding behind the kids, hiding the A. Your R with your MM is built on lies and deceit and now fear. And it is permeating everything - your D, your kids, his kids, his D, both families...how do you know which way is up? You dream of living together is SO far down the road. And he is already laying the groundwork for NOT leaving. How he can't do that to his kids. Sigh. Hear it all the time. He doesn't "lose" them. True, he spends less time but thats the price he pays. Either way he will lose. Either way YOU will lose. So which is it...what do YOU (forget him and his loss and choices) want to lose? Besides, I think you can FILE for D now, just that nothing happens for a year (unless you admit the A, in which case I can virtually promise that waiting period is waived - and it appears that everyone knows but your H anyway). Actually, I did offer this to my H about four months ago... but he is a good man (better than me I guess) and he wants the full package of a relationship. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever be able to give him that... No problem. It happens. I strongly disagree with the decision to cheat but I completely understand what you are describing. No, thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on the issues at play in my situation. I'm full of opinions. Although some people call it something else. I would still hire a lawyer...you NEED that advice. You NEED the experience he/she offers. Best money you will spend. And I'd strongly recommend therapy for your D. She'll need it too.
Holding-On Posted May 29, 2011 Posted May 29, 2011 The counselling we have been getting - though initially for the purpose of staying together - has been focusing on how to split in the most healthy way for the three of us (H, me and D). The counsellor doesn't think we should continue in our marriage unless we BOTH REALLY WANT it, and neither of us really do... but we're both afraid of course! Honestly, it may not be conventional, but the way we have approached counselling has been a good experience for both of us, so that's worth something. My H is planning to move out and get an apartment in the summer. We have to be physically separated for one year before we can divorce legally (not sure if that is common everywhere). We are not planning to use lawyers. We are agreeing to the terms very amicably, so why drain the pocketbook on lawyers we don't need? Everyone involved has met. Me with his family, his family with mine, etc. His kids have played with my D and our families have socialized in larger groups together. Yes that's a bit sticky - but at least we know what we're dealing with. He will never be "daddy" because my D has a terrific one already, but she might have a great step-dad who would love her like one of his own. She's not even 3 yet, so there's not going to be therapy for her at this point... I'm going to be separating this summer. MM is in counselling with his W for the same purposes.... to expose the fundamental incompatibility and ease the transition for separation. The sticking point for him is if she uses their children as ammunition against him. He is afraid that in anger or hurt she will use the children in any way she can to keep him around (he's seen some evidence of this when he talks about moving out/co-parenting/not being together). He said that he will not put his kids in a position of being emotional ping-pong balls, which means ultimately he may stay stuck in his M for his kids. We're both in new territory here. We're both afraid of doing real harm to the ones we love. But we might both more afraid to have found this and not act on it. We don't want to be sitting around in our old age wishing we'd gone for it. We also don't want to drag this A our for years and years and suffer the pain of lies, half-lives, and hurting our spouses. We both know that if we don't commit to ACTION soon, it will be over forever. I will not be in the A if I am single and he is not. He knows that. Actually, I did offer this to my H about four months ago... but he is a good man (better than me I guess) and he wants the full package of a relationship. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever be able to give him that... No, thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on the issues at play in my situation. It seems to me that your plan is a very sensible one. I personally disagree with the push of some PP to "rush rush rush" a divorce. I commend the intent to learn to parent separately with your H first. However, I do agree with a PP that your affair partner does sound like he is laying the groundwork for not leaving. So I hope your plans never depend on him. I think you and your daughter and husband are going to be eventually fine.
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