Picking up the tab

[musemaj11]

that's pretty much it. those of us dating in our mid 30s aren't gonna look like the 22 year old trainer with the motorcycle that women follow around at the gym. we know that. that's why we got our MBAs. we chose to sacrifice our 20s for the good life later on. the 22 year old trainer chose to spend his efforts on his 20s and pass on financial success later on. there's nothing wrong with either choice, they're just different.

 

of course all these 20 somethings are angsty about 30-35 year old wealthier men thinning their herd, but that's the way it goes, all's fair.

Unfortunately, many successful men who 'passed on their youth' have so little social experience with women that they remain psychologically a naive 19 year old boy when it comes to relationship and ends up getting screwed over.

 

As I said, I have no issues with men who use their money to their advantage as a sweetener in getting what they want (sex, hot women).

 

What I have problem is with naive men who put women on a pedestal and believe that its their job as a man to spend money on women and spoil them.

 

There is a big difference between a man who pays on dates because he thinks of it as a down payment and a man who pays on dates because he thinks its his responsibility as a man to pay. One is smart while the other is a fool.

[thatone]

Unfortunately, many successful men who 'passed on their youth' have so little social experience with women that they remain psychologically a naive 19 year old boy when it comes to relationship and ends up getting screwed over.

 

As I said, I have no issues with men who use their money to their advantage as a sweetener in getting what they want (sex, hot women).

 

What I have problem is with naive men who put women on a pedestal and believe that its their job as a man to spend money on women and spoil them.

 

There is a big difference between a man who pays on dates because he thinks of it as a down payment and a man who pays on dates because he thinks its his responsibility as a man to pay. One is smart while the other is a fool.

 

i'll give you that, there are a lot of men who get taken for a ride by spoiled women. i blame the fact that so many of those men these days grew up in single parent families, and listened to their mothers' BS all those years about how men were supposed to be. a lot of them don't realize that yes, even your mother says one thing but wants another, women are women whether they're your mother or not.

[Woggle]

I love that response on craigslist. Also 30s is still pretty young and if a person takes care of their body they can still look damn good at that age. A man who has his looks and financial success has it made during that period.

[musemaj11]

A man who has his looks and financial success has it made during that period.

And its a shame for such a man if he squanders all that advantage he has by getting married. Instead of benefiting himself, he chooses to benefit someone else.

[Woggle]

And its a shame for such a man if he squanders all that advantage he has by getting married. Instead of benefiting himself, he chooses to benefit someone else.

 

There is nothing wrong with him marrying but he should choose wisely.

[FlowerGirly]

So I just got back from a very successful second date last night with the girl I've been seeing recently. Everything went great, ended the night with a very solid kiss, have plans to hang out this weekend.

 

We went out last week to a pretty nice restaurant, I of course paid. Last night, although she suggested we get together again, I did pick the place out. It did happen to be a pretty nice place. So anyhow, I wasn't sure if she was going to pick up the tab. When the bill came it sat there for about 10 seconds because we were in the middle of talking. It was clear she wasn't going to pick it up, so I did. Ok, no big deal.

 

I really don't want to have to pay her way every single time we go out. At what point (or how many dates) would you expect a girl to start picking up tabs? Is it too soon to expect her to get a tab? I'm really not a cheap guy whatsoever, I just honestly wouldn't want to date/be with someone who just wants everything paid for them forever. As an additional note, she makes pretty good money and can definitely afford it...

 

I think the guy should pay for the date, but I know how some feel about that. So whoever does the asking should def pay.

[vsmini]

Really no need to read past that, but will be polite.

 

 

 

Here's how that works:

 

1. Men work more hours than women in similar jobs, that's a near universal fact. Overtime is significant. Moreover, no one (other than a few affirmative action arrivistes) gets to the boardroom without making significant life sacrifices and working for a company for many years. Women don't work as many hours and a percentage leave to have children and come back, or come in new after having children. The boardroom and raising children, despite what one sees in the media, are mutually exclusive. And of course people at executive levels make much more than others.

2. Men work more dangerous jobs which tend to pay more, yet somehow these jobs get lumped in with less dangerous jobs in the bogus stats.

3. Women leave the workforce to raise children. When they come back, they don't make as much because they do not have the experience others do that warrants higher wages.

4. Women suck up the easier white collar jobs in large companies in departments such as marketing and HR (try getting those jobs as a man). Those jobs should be paid even less than they are, as they require very little actual hard creative work for the most part, but are often lumped in with real operational jobs when doing these wage inequity studies.

5. The current "power level" of corporate America started work in the 70s, where women were underrepresented in corporate America... mostly due to their own choosing. That level, making more income than any other level, is vastly male, but NOT representative of people who started work in the 80s and after. Of course all the studies still include them because the goal is to create a mythical pay gap.

 

There has not been a wage gap or "glass ceiling" in America for many years, yet feminism depends on being able to concoct one to continue its many lies. Many verboten studies that account for the numbered factors above now have women outearning men.

 

Your first snark about the Times was actually not polite.

 

So what is your end-all point? That a man to pick up a tab for a woman shouldn't be that important (and I'm not saying it is one way or the other) because women make more than men? For some reason your reply seems to be making a partial claim that women do not make more than men.

 

It's silly and immature to list off statistics you have found from a reported source and then mock someone else when they tell you what they have read. It just makes you look like a jerk.

 

I've seen prior posts of yours and while sometimes you can give great advice and seem kind - sometimes you just come off like a pompous A** that fluffs himself up while shutting everyone else down and claiming what amazing arguments you make.

 

Talk about double standards - your prior posts indicate that you think men are victims of some sort. Men are expected to do this, men are looked at like this, men can't choose -only women can. Women have so many more options than men do when it comes to relationships. All this simplistic dismissal - as someone who advertises himself as giving great arguments and points - it's very irresponsible.

Where's your power? Have some responsibility for yourself. Women and men both have tons of reasons under the sun to now feel like the "weaker sex."

Edited May 26, 2011 by vsmini

[Sanman]

I read your posting with great interest and have thought meaningfully about your dilemma. I offer the following analysis of your predicament. Firstly, I’m not wasting your time, I qualify as a guy who fits your bill; that is I make more than $500K per year. That said here’s how I see it.

Your offer, from the prospective of a guy like me, is plain and simple a cr@ppy business deal. Here’s why. Cutting through all the B.S., what you suggest is a simple trade: you bring your looks to the party and I bring my money. Fine, simple. But here’s the rub, your looks will fade and my money will likely continue into perpetuity…in fact, it is very likely that my income increases but it is an absolute certainty that you won’t be getting any more beautiful!

So, in economic terms you are a depreciating asset and I am an earning asset. Not only are you a depreciating asset, your depreciation accelerates! Let me explain, you’re 25 now and will likely stay pretty hot for the next 5 years, but less so each year. Then the fade begins in earnest. By 35 stick a fork in you!

So in Wall Street terms, we would call you a trading position, not a buy and hold…hence the rub…marriage. It doesn’t make good business sense to “buy you” (which is what you’re asking) so I’d rather lease. In case you think I’m being cruel, I would say the following. If my money were to go away, so would you, so when your beauty fades I need an out. It’s as simple as that. So a deal that makes sense is dating, not marriage.

Separately, I was taught early in my career about efficient markets. So, I wonder why a girl as “articulate, classy and spectacularly beautiful” as you has been unable to find your sugar daddy. I find it hard to believe that if you are as gorgeous as you say you are that the $500K hasn’t found you, if not only for a tryout.

By the way, you could always find a way to make your own money and then we wouldn’t need to have this difficult conversation.

With all that said, I must say you’re going about it the right way. Classic “pump and dump.” I hope this is helpful, and if you want to enter into some sort of lease, let me know.

That may be the best thing I have read in a long time!!!

 

It is also all true. It the reason that as I approach 30, I am dating more laid back women with solid careers/earnings. The bit of looks I give up now will not last nearly as long as the fun times and additional income. I wish I could send that response to all the stuck up princesses I know, but I fear most of them would not understand it.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Sanman

[vsmini]

^That really is a great reply. I wonder what that girl is doing now.....

[musemaj11]

There is nothing wrong with him marrying but he should choose wisely.

You know that you can still get all the benefits of marriage without actually getting married right?

 

^That really is a great reply. I wonder what that girl is doing now.....

She just joined Loveshack a few days back and opened a thread titled "Do old-fashioned men still exist out there?" Edited May 26, 2011 by musemaj11

[sanskrit]

Your first snark about the Times was actually not polite.

 

It was quite polite, as I could have said that quoting the NYT is essentially the same as quoting Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore and expecting to be taken at face value. The NYT has been coopted by the feminist left for decades, anyone who thinks otherwise needs to educate themselves and open their minds. Anything published in the NYT with any ideological content is suspect, just as anything on Fox News or CNN with ideological content is suspect.

 

So what is your end-all point?

 

That the wage gap and glass ceiling agitprop are lies used to manipulate a voting bloc for political gain, and anytime I see them cited as factual in threads here that deal with women, men and money, I will happily expose them as the lies they are.

 

It just makes you look like a jerk.

 

Could care less what you or anyone here thinks of me, my purpose when posting ideological content in the dating board is to help young men who are barraged with BS cultural/political messages about being a man and why they should be held accountable for some supposed "sins" of man against women, sins they had no part in or, as the "wage gap" is, have always been mostly mythical and for decades now have been outright lies.

 

I've seen prior posts of yours and while sometimes you can give great advice and seem kind - sometimes you just come off like a pompous A** that fluffs himself up while shutting everyone else down and claiming what amazing arguments you make.

 

I think I understand, men who give "nice" advice that is sympathetic to a poster are fine, but if they dare to take a firm stance that disagrees with a woman or certain women's cultural attitudes, they suddenly become "a pompous ass, fluffing themselves..." That about sums it up, right?

 

QED

[samspade]

So I just got back from a very successful second date last night with the girl I've been seeing recently. Everything went great, ended the night with a very solid kiss, have plans to hang out this weekend.

 

We went out last week to a pretty nice restaurant, I of course paid. Last night, although she suggested we get together again, I did pick the place out. It did happen to be a pretty nice place. So anyhow, I wasn't sure if she was going to pick up the tab. When the bill came it sat there for about 10 seconds because we were in the middle of talking. It was clear she wasn't going to pick it up, so I did. Ok, no big deal.

 

I really don't want to have to pay her way every single time we go out. At what point (or how many dates) would you expect a girl to start picking up tabs? Is it too soon to expect her to get a tab? I'm really not a cheap guy whatsoever, I just honestly wouldn't want to date/be with someone who just wants everything paid for them forever. As an additional note, she makes pretty good money and can definitely afford it...

 

Simple solution: Don't take women you haven't sexed on dinner dates or anything else that seems extravagant. She should want to be with you to get to know you, not to have a free meal. You'll weed out a lot of trash if you stick to this.

[Feelsgoodman]

I think the guy should pay for the date, but I know how some feel about that. So whoever does the asking should def pay.

That's like saying that whoever gets pregnant should solely bear financial responsibility for raising the child. We all know that men don't get pregnant and women almost never ask men out. Saying that whoever does the asking should always pay is the same thing as saying that men should always pay. Nice try though.

[sanskrit]

Saying that whoever does the asking should always pay is the same thing as saying that men should always pay. Nice try though.

 

Excellent point that makes the "who ask pays" standard a faulty one.

[vsmini]

Sanskrit -

Firm stance? What makes your stance so firm? Sounds to me like your stances are just as flimsy as you are accusing my reading and information as being. Only difference is - I read something and think about it and state it in a blog in response to you (I'm not that invested in it, I don't claim that that STAT is the final note nor do I try to condescend to anyone) - You act like your facts are the end all be all and nobody can say differently. You're a bully about it.

 

Anyone can make up statistics on a board and fight them to the death with the use of their keyboard.

 

"The earth is flat - it's all a political scam to make the world think differently and undermine America's trade revenue ratios with the East. Anything else you have heard is a lie and I have now exposed it - my sources are correct."

 

 

^Might as well have been said by Palin herself.

[Saxis]

I went on a first date last weekend, dinner and bowling. She offered to pay for her dinner and I wouldn't let her. When it came time for bowling she pretty much pushed me out of the way and handed her card over. Right then I thought, "I like her!".

 

Next date is Tuesday!

[sanskrit]

You act like your facts are the end all be all and nobody can say differently. You're a bully about it.

 

And feminist "truths" such as wage gap posted here as fact by so many female postesrs are different how exactly? Once more, someone who disagrees with you is a "bully." I see, all too clearly.

 

Did you have any meaningful counterarguments to make with respect to the points I took the time to number out? or are you just interested in ranting at the "bully?"

 

1. You posted "women still make 15-20% less than men without any substantiation whatsoever, other than to cite the politically biased source without a link.

 

2. I disagreed and posted 4-5 ways in which such statistics are flawed. I didn't make those up out of thin air btw, they are well-known and documented explanations for any supposed wage gap that the statistics somehow manage to exclude for some reason.

 

3. You called me a "bully."

 

That really all you got?

[musemaj11]

I went on a first date last weekend, dinner and bowling. She offered to pay for her dinner and I wouldn't let her. When it came time for bowling she pretty much pushed me out of the way and handed her card over. Right then I thought, "I like her!".

 

Next date is Tuesday!

She sounds awesome.

 

Just so you know, considerate women like that are rare. So you'd better not do something stupid and ruin your chances with this one.

[Sanman]

That's like saying that whoever gets pregnant should solely bear financial responsibility for raising the child. We all know that men don't get pregnant and women almost never ask men out. Saying that whoever does the asking should always pay is the same thing as saying that men should always pay. Nice try though.

 

 

Actually, I would take that deal!

 

What about if I ask her out, but she is the one who suggests dinner/a restaurant? What about if plans change due to weather? I mean if the asker really has all the power and the other person simply accepts without say, why have I not been inviting women to have naked 'get to know you' conversations in my bedroom for first dates? It would cut down on costs.

I could go on and on with that line of thinking. Rarely do I ever ask a woman out and make plans without her suggestions/input. Thus, it is never that clear cut.

[sanskrit]

Oh and since we are on a picking up the tab thread, and I went to a restaurant to lunch today, will post what I observed.

 

Large restaurant that seats several hundred per day for lunch. 0 males with the easy job of waiting tables, all females, under relatively low stress, looking well-fed and healthy, not as easy as a desk job physically, but not a real ball breaker job either (I've done it, so don't even try to BS me on this). When I left, there must have been a break for the kitchen staff, the dishwashers, cooks, etc. ALL male out behind the restaurant, all skinny as rails (to an unhealthy degree) looking dog-tired and overworked (ever operated an industrial dishwashing machine? I have, it sucks). And I started to wonder some things:

 

1. I wonder what % of waitstaff across the country, you know, the ones who make tips for most of their income, are female? I'll just bet a vast majority are. (can't wait for the reply that says "I know this one restaurant where all the waitstaff are men!" let alone the "I know lots of male waiters!" I could care less, only interested in the national percentage)

 

2. I wonder how much tip income those waitresses make, my estimate is about $100-150 per shift, but who knows really? I wonder how much of that can be included in any wage comparison. I know that generally waitstaff makes $2.80-3 or so per hour in addition to tips in the average restaurant.

 

3. I wonder how many of the men back in the kitchen are making above minimum wage for what is very hard work? I bet very few are.

 

4. I wonder whether tips are even included in most of the wage gap stats? or rather if it appears that all the men in the restaurant make minimum wage and all the women are only making $3 per hour? Could politically motivated researchers be -brazen- enough to calculate the wage comparison that dishonestly? Or at least to lowball "tips" in their calculations? Hmmm

 

"Waitstaff" is a truly gigantic portion of the hourly wage earner economy. Draw your own conclusions.