Picking up the tab

[D-Lish]

OP, there are subtle ways to let women know your expectations. Most women I have dated offer to split the first tab, I respond, "Hey if you'd like to ask me out sometime, that would be a great treat." Works very well, amazingly well actually. If they haven't asked me out or to make a dinner for me or haven't done something assertive and nice after several dates, then it's probably time to move on to other options. But I can't stand completely passive women, so alter to your own tastes.

 

Philly Dude, the way to avoid the very real issue you describe is to make sure early dates are something you want to do too, and would have done anyway with friends if not on a date.

 

The bolded is actually a great way to let a woman know you're both generous, but not a guy that wants to take care of you! I like your response to that a lot.

[kiss_andmakeup]

And see this is why I don't like to date because women get to experience a FREE OUTING why she decides if the guy is for her. Then after he foots the bill for 3 dates, she will all of a sudden decide that she wants to pursue other options. Makes no sense

 

Perhaps you should have read my post a little bit more thoroughly. I explicitly stated that we split the bill on our dates. I always offer to split, he's just the only guy who has ever let me.

[Feelsgoodman]

Dude you are a cheap ass. Starting picking lower end places that aren't going to break you bankroll. Be thankful she is letting you pickup the tab. If she didn't want you to ravage her, she wouldn't be doing that. It's way more romantic for them if you pay.

 

You almost blew it with that 10 second wait thing, but looks like you might have made it through OK.

 

She'll pay you back with buying you bigger gifts eventually. Just make sure you keep picking up the tab and bringing her small gifts. And seriously, find some less expensive stuff to do if you are feeling uncomfortable about paying the bill.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. If not, you are obviously a basement-dwelling nerd with no life experience and the only thing that will get ravaged is your bank account. If that was sarcasm, I apologize.

[Feelsgoodman]

Personally, I always insist on splitting the bill on the first date. If she acts like the OP's date and pretends that the bill does not exist (a huge red flag, IMO), I will flat out tell her that I expect her to pay half. I don't care if she gets offended.

 

I don't do it because I'm poor or "cheap". I am actually quite generous with people who are close to me. I do not, however, act unnecessarily generous towards random species of the female gender that I am barely acquainted with.

 

I act this way in order to filter out two types of women:

 

1. Professional daters: women for whom dating is a past time activity. Of course, they can only afford this type of lifestyle because guys usually pick up the tab.

 

2. "Old fashioned" types: women who claim to be old fashioned, but only when it benefits them. These women usually have little interest in REAL traditional female gender roles, such as being a stay at home mom and loyal, deferential wife who lives to please her husband. Instead, their definition of "tradition" is having fun on someone else's dime.

 

If a woman resents you for wanting to go dutch, she is not worth your time anyway. In this day and age, when single women, on average, make more money than single men, and when 60% of all university graduates are female, "chivalry" is truly a nonsensical and outdated concept. It may have made sense back in the 1800s, when 99% of women had no independent income, but this is the 21stcentury people! I mean, what's next? Expecting employees to take their bosses out for lunch? Demanding that poor countries send foreign aid to Europe, America and Japan?

[vsmini]

"On average single women make more than single men."

Where is that statistic coming from? I read in the NY times that in 12 major cities across the united states men are still making up to 15-20% more than their female counterparts. This was about 6-8 months ago. I'll look for the link.

 

Either way - I don't suppose it really matter. Just because a guy makes more than me I don't expect him to pay for everything.

 

I liked it when my boyfriend insisted on paying for all our dates in the beginning and I appreciated it. Now I make sure I'm pulling my weight by paying for baseball games, dates, surprise weekend getaways.

 

I guess in the beginning it's healthier if both people have the mentality that someone's character is not determined if they pick up the tab or not.

[PhillyDude]

My grandmom told me a long time ago that the only time a woman pays for a man in a relationship is when it's his birthday

[snug.bunny]

I "think" if the lady pays for the first date, it may send the "I'm not interested" signal or "I don't need you to pay for me, I can pay for myself..." signal, which could be perceived negatively by the man.

 

I think maybe a good rule of thumb in this day and age, would be for the man to treat the woman on the first date and then if they both decide to continue dating each other, they each take turns (i.e. Date 1 - he pays, Date 2 - she pays, so on and so forth).

 

Now, how does one bring this up when they begin dating? Note sure...

 

In my last relationship, I was spoiled ----> in that he never let me pay, and it was that way throughout our entire relationship. But, that was offsetted by me getting/buying him things I thought he'd like, such as if I was at a store and saw a nice shirt or a sports hat he'd like...I would surprise him with it. I would pick-up food/beverages he enjoyed and stock his fridge. I'd get magazines he liked to read or that I thought he'd enjoy and put it in his bathroom or by his bed, cards, little love trinkets, things like that.

[Feelsgoodman]

My grandmom told me a long time ago that the only time a woman pays for a man in a relationship is when it's his birthday

I don't think you can take what your grandmom told you a long time ago and apply it to today's society as if time stood still. I'm sure that your great-great-grandfather would have laughed at the suggestion that a woman be allowed to vote, let alone run for president.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times, they are a-changin'.

[vsmini]

I don't think you can take what your grandmom told you a long time ago and apply it to today's society as if time stood still. I'm sure that your great-great-grandfather would have laughed at the suggestion that a woman be allowed to vote, let alone run for president.

 

As Bob Dylan said, the times, they are a-changin'.

 

i think that poster was being sarcastic

[orion1010]

For me, I prefer women just showing up with rounds and other goodies at some point. For example, if you have to go to the restroom at the ballgame or a concert, come back with beer. And keep finding other like scenarios. Of course most of you women who aren't selfish already naturally do this because you like thinking about your man.

 

 

I agree. That's totally me. I enjoy treating my man (when I have one) like that. It's the little things for me.

[Feelsgoodman]

i think that poster was being sarcastic

Perhaps. With people on this board, it's often hard to tell...

[Ruby Slippers]

The men I have dated get almost offended when I try to pay, and only let me pay maybe 15% of the time -- and this is through the whole relationship.

[guy777]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. If not, you are obviously a basement-dwelling nerd with no life experience and the only thing that will get ravaged is your bank account. If that was sarcasm, I apologize.

 

Not sarcasm. Man you really have no clue about me. I'm sorry for you if that's your experience.

[Feelsgoodman]

The men I have dated get almost offended when I try to pay, and only let me pay maybe 15% of the time -- and this is through the whole relationship.

This may be a generational thing. I don't know how old you and the men you're dating are, but I've noticed that people who were born prior to the 1980s generally tend to cling on to old-fashioned norms and ideals much more so than the younger generation.

 

Having said that, it is true that there are men (of all ages) out there who, as another poster said, feel emasculated when a woman pays. This is no doubt a sign of deep rooted emotional insecurities, as anyone who thinks that being a "real man" implies being a walking wallet clearly has issues.

[surfrider4284]

This may be a generational thing. I don't know how old you and the men you're dating are, but I've noticed that people who were born prior to the 1980s generally tend to cling on to old-fashioned norms and ideals much more so than the younger generation.

 

Having said that, it is true that there are men (of all ages) out there who, as another poster said, feel emasculated when a woman pays. This is no doubt a sign of deep rooted emotional insecurities, as anyone who thinks that being a "real man" implies being a walking wallet clearly has issues.

 

This......

[guy777]

 

I act this way in order to filter out two types of women:

 

1. Professional daters: women for whom dating is a past time activity. Of course, they can only afford this type of lifestyle because guys usually pick up the tab.

 

2. "Old fashioned" types: women who claim to be old fashioned, but only when it benefits them. These women usually have little interest in REAL traditional female gender roles, such as being a stay at home mom and loyal, deferential wife who lives to please her husband. Instead, their definition of "tradition" is having fun on someone else's dime.

 

I'm not someone who isn't intuitive enough to feel these types you describe. Of course these types usually don't happen to me. I imagine it's your lack of basic social skills that turns women off and leaves you thinking you were robbed because you didn't get any. Quit keeping score, stop insulting people, and things might turn around for you.

[guy777]

Alright, looks like I'm in the minority on this one. You guys do whatever works for you.

 

For me, I just keep giving. Then when I see there isn't anything in return after awhile (not refering to sex, which I've been trying to figure out how to actually slow down how fast it happens) I start to evaluate things and realize that she doesn't care about me.

 

But, if you guys all want to balance the scale early and often, live it up your way!

[Woggle]

I don't know why men think of it as a emasculating when a woman offers to pay. A man who can get a woman to fawn over him while spending barely a dime should be proud of himself.

[guy777]

I agree. That's totally me. I enjoy treating my man (when I have one) like that. It's the little things for me.

 

Plus, even if your man is ahead on paying for dates, it leaves you with some extra dough to order some items from the Victoria Secret catalog.

[Feelsgoodman]

I don't know why men think of it as a emasculating when a woman offers to pay. A man who can get a woman to fawn over him while spending barely a dime should be proud of himself.

These men are insecure and feel that they have noting to offer to a woman except for what's in their wallet. When their only perceived source of leverage is taken away, they feel worthless. That's why these men desperately try to hang on to "chivalry" and other outdated social norms. It's their way of making sense of the world.

 

Such men are basically the male equivalent of an insecure hot woman who feels she has nothing to offer beyond her looks and constantly accuses men of treating women as sex objects.

[Woggle]

These men are insecure and feel that they have noting to offer to a woman except for what's in their wallet. When their only perceived source of leverage is taken away, they feel worthless. That's why these men desperately try to hang on to "chivalry" and other outdated social norms. It's their way of making sense of the world.

 

Such men are basically the male equivalent of an insecure hot woman who feels she has nothing to offer beyond her looks and constantly accuses men of treating women as sex objects.

 

Also these men feel that buying a woman's affection and kissing her butt is the only way to be successful and that is not true at all. If a woman really likes you you don't have to spend a dime on her.

[Sanman]

 

I don't do it because I'm poor or "cheap". I am actually quite generous with people who are close to me. I do not, however, act unnecessarily generous towards random species of the female gender that I am barely acquainted with.

 

I act this way in order to filter out two types of women:

 

1. Professional daters: women for whom dating is a past time activity. Of course, they can only afford this type of lifestyle because guys usually pick up the tab.

 

2. "Old fashioned" types: women who claim to be old fashioned, but only when it benefits them. These women usually have little interest in REAL traditional female gender roles, such as being a stay at home mom and loyal, deferential wife who lives to please her husband. Instead, their definition of "tradition" is having fun on someone else's dime.

 

 

I definitely agree with the above about not being cheap. I honestly don't feel the need to treat every woman I date as I will never speak to many of them after a date or two. This may change if I date someone I have known for a while prior. Usually, these are women I barely know (either online or bars/quick pickups). As a backup, I have more than a few cheap dates in my pocket. Now that the weather is warming up, picnics are great. I can usually cover the entire thing for around $20 with a cheap bottle of wine and I look romantic.

[sanskrit]

I read in the NY times

 

Really no need to read past that, but will be polite.

 

that in 12 major cities across the united states men are still making up to 15-20% more than their female counterparts.

 

Here's how that works:

 

1. Men work more hours than women in similar jobs, that's a near universal fact. Overtime is significant. Moreover, no one (other than a few affirmative action arrivistes) gets to the boardroom without making significant life sacrifices and working for a company for many years. Women don't work as many hours and a percentage leave to have children and come back, or come in new after having children. The boardroom and raising children, despite what one sees in the media, are mutually exclusive. And of course people at executive levels make much more than others.

2. Men work more dangerous jobs which tend to pay more, yet somehow these jobs get lumped in with less dangerous jobs in the bogus stats.

3. Women leave the workforce to raise children. When they come back, they don't make as much because they do not have the experience others do that warrants higher wages.

4. Women suck up the easier white collar jobs in large companies in departments such as marketing and HR (try getting those jobs as a man). Those jobs should be paid even less than they are, as they require very little actual hard creative work for the most part, but are often lumped in with real operational jobs when doing these wage inequity studies.

5. The current "power level" of corporate America started work in the 70s, where women were underrepresented in corporate America... mostly due to their own choosing. That level, making more income than any other level, is vastly male, but NOT representative of people who started work in the 80s and after. Of course all the studies still include them because the goal is to create a mythical pay gap.

 

There has not been a wage gap or "glass ceiling" in America for many years, yet feminism depends on being able to concoct one to continue its many lies. Many verboten studies that account for the numbered factors above now have women outearning men.

[musemaj11]

Quiet a few men with chronic doormatism here.

 

Im okay with men who choose to pay for a woman's time especially if you want the hottest woman you can get. But just dont take it too far and marry them or something. As long as you realize that you are just 'leasing the car', all power to you.

 

This is no doubt a sign of deep rooted emotional insecurities, as anyone who thinks that being a "real man" implies being a walking wallet clearly has issues.

Yea, you cant really blame people from older generations for clinging on to old-fashioned beliefs. I understand why my mother balked at the idea of women paying on dates when I told her I hate paying on dates. But then again she also balked at the idea that women and men are equal since she really does think that due to her religious and cultural background, my father is more than her just because he is a man and its her obligation as a wife to obey her husband.

 

The problem with today's women is that they want us to be equal unless its something old-fashioned that benefits them.

 

These are the types of women that you can expect to want to be paid for:

1) Women well over 30 (older generation).

2) Hot women who are used to men paying for them.

 

If you want a hot woman you have to pay just like if you want a hot man you have to be ready to be one of his harem.

Edited May 26, 2011 by musemaj11

[thatone]

Quiet a few men with chronic doormatism here.

 

Im okay with men who choose to pay for a woman's time especially if you want the hottest woman you can get. But just dont take it too far and marry them or something. As long as you realize that you are just 'leasing the car', all power to you.

 

 

that's pretty much it. those of us dating in our mid 30s aren't gonna look like the 22 year old trainer with the motorcycle that women follow around at the gym. we know that. that's why we got our MBAs. we chose to sacrifice our 20s for the good life later on. the 22 year old trainer chose to spend his efforts on his 20s and pass on financial success later on. there's nothing wrong with either choice, they're just different.

 

of course all these 20 somethings are angsty about 30-35 year old wealthier men thinning their herd, but that's the way it goes, all's fair.

 

as for leasing, that reminds me of a 'best of craigslist' post from awhile back...

 

Okay, I’

m

tired of beating around the bush. I’

m

a beautiful (spectacularly beautiful) 25 year

old

girl. I’

m

articulate and classy. I’

m

not from New York. I’

m

looking to get married to a guy who makes at least half a million a year. I know how that sounds, but keep in mind that a million a year is middle class in New York City,

so

I don’t think I’

m

overreaching at all.

Are there any guys who make 500K or more on this board? Any wives? Could you send me some tips? I dated a business man who makes average around 200 - 250. But that’s where I seem to hit a roadblock. 250,000 won’t get me to central park west. I know a woman in my yoga class who was married to an investment banker and lives in Tribeca, and she’s not as pretty as I am, nor is she a great genius.

So

what is she doing right? How do I get to her level?

Here are my questions specifically:

- Where do you single rich men hang out? Give me specifics- bars, restaurants, gyms

-What are you looking for in a mate? Be honest guys, you won’t hurt my feelings

-Is there an age range I should be targeting (I’

m

25)?

- Why are some of the women living lavish lifestyles on the upper east side

so

plain? I’ve seen really ‘plain jane’ boring types who have nothing to offer married to incredibly wealthy guys. I’ve seen drop dead gorgeous girls in singles bars in the east village. What’s the story there?

- Jobs I should look out for? Everyone knows - lawyer, investment banker, doctor. How much do those guys really make? And where do they hang out? Where do the hedge fund guys hang out?

- How you decide marriage vs. just a girlfriend? I am looking for MARRIAGE ONLY

Please hold your insults - I’

m

putting myself out there in an honest way. Most beautiful women are superficial; at least I’

m

being up front about it. I wouldn’t be searching for these kind of guys if I wasn’t able to match them - in looks, culture, sophistication, and keeping a nice home and hearth.

 

 

a reply, that people later found was from a trader at JP Morgan...

 

 

I read your posting with great interest and have thought meaningfully about your dilemma. I offer the following analysis of your predicament. Firstly, I’

m

not wasting your time, I qualify as a guy who fits your bill; that is I make more than $500K per year. That said here’s how I see it.

Your offer, from the prospective of a guy like me, is plain and simple a cr@ppy business deal. Here’s why. Cutting through all the B.S., what you suggest is a simple trade: you bring your looks to the party and I bring my money. Fine, simple. But here’s the rub, your looks will fade and my money will likely continue into perpetuity…in fact, it is very likely that my income increases but it is an absolute certainty that you won’t be getting any more beautiful!

So

, in economic terms you are a depreciating asset and I am an earning asset. Not only are you a depreciating asset, your depreciation accelerates! Let me explain, you’re 25 now and will likely stay pretty hot for the next 5 years, but less

so

each year. Then the fade begins in earnest. By 35 stick a fork in you!

So

in Wall Street terms, we would call you a trading position, not a buy and hold…hence the rub…marriage. It doesn’t make good business sense to “buy you” (which is what you’re asking)

so

I’d rather lease. In case you think I’

m

being cruel, I would say the following. If my money were to go away,

so

would you,

so

when your beauty fades I need an out. It’s as simple as that.

So

a deal that makes sense is dating, not marriage.

Separately, I was taught early in my career about efficient markets.

So

, I wonder why a girl as “articulate, classy and spectacularly beautiful” as you has been unable to find your sugar daddy. I find it hard to believe that if you are as gorgeous as you say you are that the $500K hasn’t found you, if not only for a tryout.

By the way, you could always find a way to make your own money and then we wouldn’t need to have this difficult conversation.

With all that said, I must say you’re going about it the right way. Classic “pump and dump.” I hope this is helpful, and if you want to enter into some sort of lease, let me know.

Edited May 26, 2011 by thatone