sanskrit Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 I remember when I was in high school, I stayed up on the night of Thanksgiving to clean the kitchen and breakfast room so my mom didn't have to do it all herself in the morning. Between the dirty dishes (for at least 30 people), countertops, oven, tables, and floors, it took me until 5 am, and my back was killing me. Specious example. Most men, truth be told, don't give a flip about big holiday extravaganzas, women do that for themselves. It doesn't take away that for two days a year, there's lots of extra work to do in the house, but that's two days a year and in most families the locations cycle, so it's not even every year. Housework is indeed work, but in contrast to lots of bogus studies overvaluing housework over the last two decades, it just isn't the kind of hard work it was in the past, children or no.
Els Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Where I live, house maids get paid minimum wage and there is a reason for that. The hardest part of being a stay at home parent is if there is a newborn baby in the picture while the rest are nothing. As a child I took care of much of the housework since my parents were busy working. And when I started driving I was also the one buying groceries. The only thing I didnt do was cooking. I could do doing laundry, buying groceries, cleaning the bathroom, and vacuuming in a few hours. Besides its not like you have to do all those things every single day. So sorry Im not buying all these, "OMG staying home is so hard!" Also in most traditional households where the wives only stays home, the husbands are the ones who mow the lawn, take out the trash, fix the plumbing, fix the cars, build the furniture their wives buy from IKEA, etc. As I said, I have no issue with people who take a couple years off to care for a newborn baby (although I prefer getting a nanny or a relative to do it). But staying home as a full time job for the rest of their lives? Pffftt. Get a real job. I don't really get where you're coming from. You know, no man or woman is made to support a partner for the rest of their lives. It's usually a decision made by themselves. Kids don't only need your care for the first 2 years of their lives. And most people don't just have one kid. After 2 years, it is the most common time for couples to have another. And then another. And 2 years after that, you have a 2, 4, and 6 year old whose cumulative daycare costs PLUS a maid would probably exceed the average person's pay. Have you EVER done long-term babysitting for ANY kid below 12, OP? Stop judging people based on YOUR values. Some men actually DO want to earn more than the woman they're with. I have had a few admit such to me. Dude, whatever makes them happy.
Els Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Specious example. Most men, truth be told, don't give a flip about big holiday extravaganzas, women do that for themselves. It doesn't take away that for two days a year, there's lots of extra work to do in the house, but that's two days a year and in most families the locations cycle, so it's not even every year. Housework is indeed work, but in contrast to lots of bogus studies overvaluing housework over the last two decades, it just isn't the kind of hard work it was in the past, children or no. Okay. So why would you not stay at home, do the housework, and take care of the kids, letting your wife bring in the bacon? Sounds like a paid-for holiday to me, the way you're talking.
Author musemaj11 Posted May 27, 2011 Author Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) I don't really get where you're coming from. You know, no man or woman is made to support a partner for the rest of their lives. It's usually a decision made by themselves. Kids don't only need your care for the first 2 years of their lives. And most people don't just have one kid. After 2 years, it is the most common time for couples to have another. And then another. And 2 years after that, you have a 2, 4, and 6 year old whose cumulative daycare costs PLUS a maid would probably exceed the average person's pay. Have you EVER done long-term babysitting for ANY kid below 12, OP? Unless you live in a village and need a lot of hands at the farm, I believe people with more than two kids are dumb. Okay. So why would you not stay at home, do the housework, and take care of the kids, letting your wife bring in the bacon? Sounds like a paid-for holiday to me, the way you're talking. Yea because women would jump at the idea of marrying a man whose dream is to be a stay at home husband. Get real. Even all the women who here say that they wouldnt mind a stay at home husband, I bet more than half of them wouldnt be too excited to hear a man who wants to be a stay at home husband during the courting process. Edited May 27, 2011 by musemaj11
sanskrit Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) Okay. So why would you not stay at home, do the housework, and take care of the kids, letting your wife bring in the bacon? Sounds like a paid-for holiday to me, the way you're talking. I don't want kids, but would have no problem at all doing what I do now, working from home, doing all my own housework. Have been doing all my own housework since 1989, bet I have done more housework than most if not all the women in this thread, and if I do it fast enough it's aerobic exercise. Later today will be vacuuming upstairs, cleaning two bathrooms (that don't need it), doing two loads of laundry and a load of dishes, packing for a move. Takes 30 minutes a day, and would take me 2 hours or so a day with kids. Housework is easy breezy compared to real work. I remember as a kid, my dad would come in dog tired from traveling all over a multi-county area in his job, and my mother would start complaining how hard her day was, even then at 4 y.o. I would think "she didn't do anything all day but go to the grocery store and clothes shopping (often leaving us in a hot car), what's so hard about that?" Edited May 27, 2011 by sanskrit
Els Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Unless you live in a village and need a lot of hands at the farm, I believe people with more than two kids are dumb. Yea because women would jump at the idea of marrying a man whose dream is to be a stay at home husband. Get real. Even all the women who here say that they wouldnt mind a stay at home husband, I bet more than half of them wouldnt be too excited to hear a man who wants to be a stay at home husband during the courting process. So why do you bother posting to ask 'women, would you support a SAHD' when you don't believe a single thing the women here say?
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 But honestly if you are a man living in america, marrying a woman with zero financial worth means you are just a step away from waking up one day with your wife gone with the kids while you are stuck with alimony and child support up your arse.But this is also true for women as well. There is a woman on LS who was totally screwed over by her cheating POS ex who she is now paying spousal support to and has been for a loooong time. There is a woman I know IRL whose H lost his job over a year ago and has been on unemployment, and she recently sought legal advice about divorce (not because of the job issue, but emotional distance - I know them well) and she was told she would have to pay him spousal support if she went through with it.
vsmini Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 But this is also true for women as well. There is a woman on LS who was totally screwed over by her cheating POS ex who she is now paying spousal support to and has been for a loooong time. There is a woman I know IRL whose H lost his job over a year ago and has been on unemployment, and she recently sought legal advice about divorce (not because of the job issue, but emotional distance - I know them well) and she was told she would have to pay him spousal support if she went through with it. That argument won't work for a lot of men. I pointed out the same type of example (funny enough I've seen it more common for the woman to get screwed over than the man) and all I got was basically "well it's more common for men" and then more generalizations of women came out. It's pointless.
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 That argument won't work for a lot of men. I pointed out the same type of example (funny enough I've seen it more common for the woman to get screwed over than the man) and all I got was basically "well it's more common for men" and then more generalizations of women came out. It's pointless. Well, it is actually more common for men merely because there are more stay at home moms rather than dads. Let's just say that any PERSON who has a stay at home partner could be taken to the cleaners down the road. That way we keep it gender neutral.
Jazzari Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Musemaj11: You seem very condeming of women who want to be stay at home moms. You've implied that they are looking for a free ride and marry for money. If you think these women are so horrible, then why are you suggesting that men act the same? In fact, why would you advise anyone (male or female) to marry for money instead of love? You're basically saying, "look how scummy they are - let's be the same!". Whether you choose to believe it or not, I believe that the vast majority of people marry for love. I'd hate to see that change. One other point that you keep bringing up that bothers me. You keep complaining about paying child support. Why? You think its right to turn your back on your own children? Even if the mom is the worst person on earth, that isn't the child's fault. If you love them, you want to help them.
RecordProducer Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Nope. We, meaning all PEOPLE, not just women, should approach everything from a "how is this going to affect my family and finances and life?" perspective. Apparently you missed the part where I said I would be the provider and let my man stay home if that worked best for our particular situation. Honey, you missed the part that I was actually NOT joking!
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Honey, you missed the part that I was actually NOT joking! Really? Is that how you view yourself? Or are you being facetious? Sorry - maybe I'm the one being obtuse!
sally4sara Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 How come no one ever considers that some of the wives of SAHSs loose respect and attraction for them not because they are not filling some antiquated breadwinner/male role, but because once they are the SAHS, they do very little to qualify for the role of a SAHS? It was why I became resentful of my ex. He couldn't seem to hold a job more than a week or so while I worked no less than 50 hours a week and often more. Each time he would be jobless I'd tell him fine, just take care of the domestic stuff (minus my delicate laundry and cooking when I had a day off). He was as useless at that as he was at holding a job. Why vilify all women, including ones who experienced what I experienced if they stop valuing their lazy SAHS for not pulling any weight at all? Why is this never considered when it is still quite common for women to do more of the domestic care even when both work full time jobs? You want to talk about equality? You're going to need to be able to do one, the other, or both as well as a woman would.
RecordProducer Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Really? Is that how you view yourself? Or are you being facetious? Sorry - maybe I'm the one being obtuse! What I meant was not in any pejorative or degrading way. I honestly think women love when the world revolves around them, although most of us rarely get it. A simple, benign example would be women love to receive compliments and men love to give them. It comes from our strong emotional needs - receiving love and affection is very important to us. And this stems from the days when we nurtured the young ones and our men would go provide food for us. Men, on the other hand don't live for receiving affection. They are more practical. You won't hear a man say to his partner: "Oh, you told your mother about your new job before you told me ?!" C'mon... we women are ridiculously selfish sometimes! all PEOPLE, not just women, should approach everything from a "how is this going to affect my family and finances and life?" perspective (emphasis mine) BTW, this IS a selfish perspective. Anything that starts with "MY" is about "ME" and not about the rest of the world. Your family is part of your life.
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 What I meant was not in any pejorative or degrading way. I honestly think women love when the world revolves around them, although most of us rarely get it. A simple, benign example would be women love to receive compliments and men love to give them. It comes from our strong emotional needs - receiving love and affection is very important to us. And this stems from the days when we nurtured the young ones and our men would go provide food for us. Men, on the other hand don't live for receiving affection. They are more practical. You won't hear a man say to his partner: "Oh, you told your mother about your new job before you told me ?!" C'mon... we women are ridiculously selfish sometimes! I'm glad you're speaking for yourself. I never do things so petty as bitch at my man because he gave someone news before me. (emphasis mine) BTW, this IS a selfish perspective. Anything that starts with "MY" is about "ME" and not about the rest of the world. Your family is part of your life. I should worry about the neighbor's family instead?
RecordProducer Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) I'm glad you're speaking for yourself. I never do things so petty as bitch at my man because he gave someone news before me. Obviously, that was an exaggeration, but is very typical of women and I am not necessarily speaking for myself. I should worry about the neighbor's family instead? You don't even realize how selfish your rhetorical question is. Yes, you should. And it's not a matter of "instead." In some cultures it's a normal thing. Selfishness is directly proportional to the American high standard of living: we all have cars, homes, jobs, and we don't need anybody's help. But if you couldn't afford a car repair, you'd be more than happy to have a neighbor fix your car. And you would baby-sit his kids because he couldn't afford a baby-sitter. In these cultures people don't do it as a favor repayment - they just live like one big family where nobody is counting the favors. I am not saying we should change our way of living, but let's not call it "selfless" when we only care about our own families, lives and finances. Edited May 27, 2011 by RecordProducer
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Obviously, that was an exaggeration, but is very typical of women and I am not necessarily speaking for myself. You don't even realize how selfish your rhetorical question is. Yes, you should. And it's not a matter of "instead." In some cultures it's a normal thing. Selfishness is directly proportional to the American high standard of living: we all have cars, homes, jobs, and we don't need anybody's help. But if you couldn't afford a car repair, you'd be more than happy to have a neighbor fix your car. And you would baby-sit his kids because he couldn't afford a baby-sitter. In these cultures people don't do it as a favor repayment - they just live like one big family where nobody is counting the favors. I am not saying we should change our way of living, but let's not call it "selfless" when we only care about our own families, lives and finances. Oh, for gawd's sake. We are NOT talking about doing things for each other. I do things for my neighbors and friends and family - ALL THE TIME. They also do things for me. I'm better at some things, others are better at other things. We take care of each other because we care about each other's lives. However, this thread is about important life decisions, and I am most CERTAINLY going to make those important life decisions based on MY family's needs first and foremost, and so does my man (he IS a man...). And they are glad I do. I certainly would NOT put my family AFTER the neighbors concerning "important life decisions." I think my neighbors would be a little creeped out if I did.
sally4sara Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Oh, for gawd's sake. We are NOT talking about doing things for each other. I do things for my neighbors and friends and family - ALL THE TIME. They also do things for me. I'm better at some things, others are better at other things. We take care of each other because we care about each other's lives. However, this thread is about important life decisions, and I am most CERTAINLY going to make those important life decisions based on MY family's needs first and foremost, and so does my man (he IS a man...). And they are glad I do. I certainly would NOT put my family AFTER the neighbors concerning "important life decisions." I think my neighbors would be a little creeped out if I did. Why donna! How selfish! You mean you wouldn't have another baby because the neighbors couldn't conceive? Or put off getting your roof fixed to help the neighbors put their kid thru college? And I thought you were a kind hearted person!
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Why donna! How selfish! You mean you wouldn't have another baby because the neighbors couldn't conceive? Or put off getting your roof fixed to help the neighbors put their kid thru college? And I thought you were a kind hearted person! Nope. Just me here - queen bytche!
samspade Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 If you think being a stay at home spouse is such an honorable responsibility equal to being a breadwinner, how many of you would by your own choice gladly be the breadwinner and support a stay at home husband? And how many of you are actually looking to find a man whom you plan to make a stay at home husband so you dont have to give up your own career? I really wanna see if women are just all talk or not. You mad dude? Joining one of those "men's rights" movements? Most women will tell you they'll be glad to be the breadwinner. Doesn't mean anything in practice. How can they prove they're not "all talk" on a message board? Your job as a man is to be the leader. Status is never equal. Power will not tolerate a vacuum You give up yours, she'll take the reins, but she'll grow to resent you for it. Doesn't necessarily have to do with money. A woman wants a man to lead and not be a whiny indignant victim. "Breadwinning" is but one way you lead, but it's all in your mindset. A lot of guys earn more than their wives but have no balls. They eventually become cuckolds.
Woggle Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 How come no one ever considers that some of the wives of SAHSs loose respect and attraction for them not because they are not filling some antiquated breadwinner/male role, but because once they are the SAHS, they do very little to qualify for the role of a SAHS? It was why I became resentful of my ex. He couldn't seem to hold a job more than a week or so while I worked no less than 50 hours a week and often more. Each time he would be jobless I'd tell him fine, just take care of the domestic stuff (minus my delicate laundry and cooking when I had a day off). He was as useless at that as he was at holding a job. Why vilify all women, including ones who experienced what I experienced if they stop valuing their lazy SAHS for not pulling any weight at all? Why is this never considered when it is still quite common for women to do more of the domestic care even when both work full time jobs? You want to talk about equality? You're going to need to be able to do one, the other, or both as well as a woman would. I very much understand this because that is how my first marriage was. She spent all day getting high and cheating on me yet somehow considered herself a housewife. I have no sympathy for men like that but I have heard women say they don't like feeling like the man in the relationship. Men are not the only ones who have a hard time with shifting gender roles.
RecordProducer Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 We are NOT talking about doing things for each other. I do things for my neighbors and friends and family - ALL THE TIME. They also do things for me. I'm better at some things, others are better at other things. We take care of each other because we care about each other's lives.Well, that's good! It might be your community, but in some of the big cities here people are not like that at all. You're lucky if someone lets you borrow their pen, not to mention share their umbrella while walking with you and it's pouring. If someone makes a suggestion like "You should send your resume to XYZ, Inc."- it's considered they're helping you with your career. You get the picture. Why donna! How selfish! You mean you wouldn't have another baby because the neighbors couldn't conceive? Or put off getting your roof fixed to help the neighbors put their kid thru college? And I thought you were a kind hearted person! You're taking things out of context. Funny, nonetheless.
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Well, that's good! It might be your community, but in some of the big cities here people are not like that at all. You're lucky if someone lets you borrow their pen, not to mention share their umbrella while walking with you and it's pouring. If someone makes a suggestion like "You should send your resume to XYZ, Inc."- it's considered they're helping you with your career. You get the picture. Oh, wow. I think that's part of why I moved back home. People are much more "real" here. No offense meant RE: where you live. It's just that I like a more homey kind of atmosphere. We still know our neighbors and stuff. Things have changed since I left year ago, no doubt, but people here are less concerned with status and "appearances" than they were where I was living previously. I cannot STAND snooty people!
Author musemaj11 Posted May 27, 2011 Author Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) But this is also true for women as well. There is a woman on LS who was totally screwed over by her cheating POS ex who she is now paying spousal support to and has been for a loooong time. There is a woman I know IRL whose H lost his job over a year ago and has been on unemployment, and she recently sought legal advice about divorce (not because of the job issue, but emotional distance - I know them well) and she was told she would have to pay him spousal support if she went through with it. Over 90% of people who get screwed over financially in a divorce are men. However Im not saying this is the fault of women. Im saying that this is partially the fault of men as well for not caring enough about the financial status of a potential partner like women usually do when it comes to entering a marriage. I dont think anyone can deny that men's selection criteria tend to be a lot more simplistic than womens. Women want the so-called 'whole package' while men usually just want a pretty face and a good heart. Let's just say that any PERSON who has a stay at home partner could be taken to the cleaners down the road. That way we keep it gender neutral. Thats what I said, wasnt it? If you think these women are so horrible, then why are you suggesting that men act the same? In fact, why would you advise anyone (male or female) to marry for money instead of love? You're basically saying, "look how scummy they are - let's be the same!". Whether you choose to believe it or not, I believe that the vast majority of people marry for love. I'd hate to see that change.I have no doubt the majority of people marry for love. But what is 'Love'? Love is merely a chemical reaction in our brain. And what triggers such reaction in people? Well its different reasons for many people. It can be beauty, money, status, compatible personality. One other point that you keep bringing up that bothers me. You keep complaining about paying child support. Why? You think its right to turn your back on your own children? Even if the mom is the worst person on earth, that isn't the child's fault. If you love them, you want to help them. Often the mother disappears with the kids while the father never gets to see them again. The only thing he gets to see is a portion of his money going somewhere. Besides how do you know the child support actually goes to the child unless receipts are somehow presented? Im not against child support. Im just saying it has to be fair for both parties. Edited May 27, 2011 by musemaj11
donnamaybe Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 But what is 'Love'? Love is merely a chemical reaction in our brain. .No, honey. That's lust. Lust causes the attraction which is part of the reason that you want to find out if you could actually love that person. I love my man for who he is on the inside. That wonderfully kind, generous heart of his.
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