Richard Friedman Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 If both parents are working full time, they BOTH should be contributing to household chores and such. One of my good friends is married, she's in her late 30s; they have 2 kids (ages 9 and 11). Her and hubby both work full time. Hubby figures that once he comes home from work that his work is done. He feels it's the "woman's job" to clean, grocery shop, cook, do laundry, get the kids ready for bed, help them with homework and school projects, etc. The only thing he really does around the house, if asked, is take out the trash and mow the lawn. He expects to come home to dinner on the table...no help with clean-up of dishes....he's the king and that after dinner he deserves to be able to relax and watch TV. She's concerned about this because their children are 2 boys and she's fearful that they will grow up believing that this is the way it's done..........that a wife, even if working full time, is still expected to single-handedly run the home and do all of the domestic stuff. She works just as hard in her job as he does, and she never complains. She is run ragged a lot of the time and while he often spends the weekends relaxing, she never has any free time to herself. I feel badly for her. Kudos to your friends for her hard work. Because of her example her boys will probably grow up to be selfrespecting men. Tell her to take comfort from the fact that HER kids won't be the henpecked husbands who get shot down after doing all the housework. Or some stay at home mangina who thinks he's more sophisticated while getting the boss's sloppy seconds. No one said raising boys right is easy, and too many people want it all with no sacrifice. She is a good woman indeed.
Els Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 My mother is a clean freak, she still won't allow anyone else to clean her house. And my father worked long hours, if we'd waited for him to get home from work we would have been eating at midnight. My father's domain was the outside areas of the house, which were quite extensive. There are worse things in the world than daycare. Ah, fair enough. You mentioned both worked full-time so I assumed they worked the same number of hours approximately. So, would you still follow her example if you and your husband worked the same number of hours? I've never known yardwork to be as time-intensive as housekeeping + cooking, but then again I've mostly only had small yards. Agreed, sometimes daycare is necessary. But your post seemed to imply that couples who decide to have one partner stay at home instead of bring in income are 'shortchanging' their kids' futures somehow. My point is that those couples believe the opposite.
sweetjasmine Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 She's concerned about this because their children are 2 boys and she's fearful that they will grow up believing that this is the way it's done..........that a wife, even if working full time, is still expected to single-handedly run the home and do all of the domestic stuff. My family was like this. Mom would do all the housework and cooking, and it was up to me to help her because I happened to be born with one set of genitalia, and my brothers were off the hook because they happened to be born with the other set of genitalia. My father was far from lazy: he worked his butt off to provide, but when he came home, he wouldn't lift a finger to help my mother. He wouldn't even take his plate to the damn sink after dinner. After a couple of years as I got older, my mother started working full-time, and it was still her job to do all of the domestic work. As things stand right now, my father retired, and she's still working full-time and doing almost all of the housework. He's started chipping in these days and will actually put dirty plates in the sink when he's done using them. As for the kids, my brother absolutely believes that it's a woman's job to take care of him. He has never cooked a meal in his life that didn't involve sticking a Hot Pocket in the microwave and pressing start. He's approaching 30 and he's never done laundry. He went downstairs with his girlfriend once, and she told him which buttons to push, but that's about it. He expects her to do everything, and if she leaves him, mom and grandma will pick up the slack even though grandma can barely walk anymore. My mother will still bend over backwards to make sure he doesn't have to lift a finger to take care of himself because she feels obligated. She's told me that she would feel horribly guilty if she didn't take care of him. It's pathetic. Woggle keeps talking about women losing respect for men who earn less? Please, nothing will make me lose respect for a man faster than finding out he's a man-child who needs to be told how to use the f-ing coffeemaker and who says he has no idea how to cook spaghetti unless it's in a frozen prepared meal.
Stung Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Also, I don't doubt that it is possible, but some people prefer not to send their kids to daycare for 8+ hours a day, which is literally unavoidable with both parents working, even with supermom, unless she works fro home. In that case, one of them would stay at home to take care of the kids. I stayed home full-time with my son until he was two years old, because neither my husband or I wanted him to be in a full-time daycare with strangers. I don't have a problem with other people choosing that route, and i was in daycare myself as a baby, it's just not what we wanted to do--and I should add that my husband actually felt strongly about this, that ONE of us should be home. Since he earns more than I do, I was breastfeeding, and I have more understanding of child psych, it made sense that it be me. It's hard work. My son was colicky, not an "easy baby" content to be put down for an hour at a time; I had to hold him almost all the time, I spent hours walking him up and down while he screamed, rocking him. Since my husband needed to be on top of things at work, I was the one who got up with the baby every hour and a half all night, and spent an hour getting him back to sleep. The sleep deprivation was intense. It could be incredibly rewarding, bonding with my son and getting to guide him through his first milestones, but it could also be frustrating and dirty drudge work where I ended the day exhausted and with a splitting headache and having been elbow-deep in explosive diarrhea and vomit. He went through a phase where he was often sick and had several frightening asthma attacks, and I was the one who had to pin him down to hold the breather mask over his little face while he struggled, the one who had to take him to the doctor almost every day. I was also taking care of his big sister, my stepdaughter, ferrying her to and from school and extracurriculars, helping her with her homework, taking her to the dentist, and putting up with hefty doses of her mother's resentment for it. Sometimes I felt really isolated, and I missed the office camaraderie I was used to, which my husband still enjoyed. Somehow I managed to retain most of my intellectual function, however, and didn't regress to having the mind and communication skills of a child, as someone posted upthread . And I wouldn't change those years, because I do believe I made the best choice for MY family--but I can say for sure it's not any easier to stay home 24/7 with young children than it is to go to an office every day. To answer the actual OP, I have supported a bf in the past, while he spent his time working on his art. And if one of the projects I'm working on now comes to fruition, I hope to be able to support my husband taking a years' sabbatical so he can spend his time working on the more creative design ideas he's been having to backburner for a while. I would love to be able to do that for him, for us. My husband doesn't have the temperament to be an actual SAHD, though--he is kind of obsessed with his career, and lacks the patience to be with very young children all day. He is a great dad, very bonded with his children and always prioritizing them first, but we both know he'd hate being a SAHD and he wouldn't be very good at it, because of that. BTW, my brother-in-law is a SAHD for his young children while his wife works, and it's obviously a great arrangement for them and one that they chose. A good friend of mine stayed at home while her kid was a baby, but now is working and in school getting her NP while her husband works on his art and takes care of their 4-year-old. One of my nearest sets of neighbors is a SAHD while the wife works, although I think that's less by choice and is more due to him having a hard time finding work. There's also a SAHD I run into often at the park, whose wife works while he takes care of their 3-year-old. He loves being at home, but his wife also pays for a maid once a week so he doesn't have to clean up as much, lucky him. Instead he uses the kids' downtime to work out, he's literally bulging with muscle.
donnamaybe Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 It's pathetic. Woggle keeps talking about women losing respect for men who earn less? Please, nothing will make me lose respect for a man faster than finding out he's a man-child who needs to be told how to use the f-ing coffeemaker and who says he has no idea how to cook spaghetti unless it's in a frozen prepared meal. I totally agree. Beautifully summed up.
Woggle Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I've seen this situation both among my friends and some of my female colleagues, and it usually plays out like this. Enlightened husband gives up his career so his figh flying wife can reach her dreams. she makes more and someone needs to take care of the kids. Why shoudn't it be him? She tells him "There's nothing wrong with being a stay at home dad honey. If it's ok for women then it's okay for men too. Don't listen to the guys who call you a wimp. They're pigs who belong in the 1950s." Invariably the guy ends up getting no sex or the wife is getting boned by some vice president, or both. Is it really a surprise? A career woman will spend all day in presence of commanding alpha males who are building empires. You can't honestly expect her to then come home and feel attraction for a man who's been changing diapers and doing her dishes. Woman value drive and leadership in their men. Few things will dry them up faster then a guy who relies on them. Stay at home wives don't turn off men because we(generalizing here) have different criteria. Men value women for how attractive they are and how affectionate they are; her drive is not a factor either way(unless it causes her to cut back on sex). Just goes to show that no matter how enlightened or egalitarian we want to be we can't twist nature to fit our worldview. The idea that the difference between men and women is just anatomy is pure hogwash. Also i don' t don't mean to say that career women are not suitable for marriage. What i've noticed though is that a man who's happily married to an "alpha female" is at the same or even higher status. I have seen this often as well. The enlightened men who truly do embrace this kind of dynamic end up getting screwed the worst. She ends up not respecting him as a man.
Mangomonkey Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 hey hey hey whats wrong with not knowing how to make spaghetti? i make a mean bag of popcorn and im plenty man thank you very much
Entropy3000 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 What an archaic way of looking at things. Like it or not, women have careers of their own now. Gone are the days where the man would presue a career and the woman would stay home and be a homemaker. Now-a-days things are more equal in this respect, like it or not this is how it is. It's not uncommon to find women who make more then men. Hell... my girlfriend makes thousands more than I do. Women tend to "trade up".
OliveOyl Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I've seen this situation both among my friends and some of my female colleagues, and it usually plays out like this. Enlightened husband gives up his career so his figh flying wife can reach her dreams. she makes more and someone needs to take care of the kids. Why shoudn't it be him? She tells him "There's nothing wrong with being a stay at home dad honey. If it's ok for women then it's okay for men too. Don't listen to the guys who call you a wimp. They're pigs who belong in the 1950s." Invariably the guy ends up getting no sex or the wife is getting boned by some vice president, or both. Is it really a surprise? A career woman will spend all day in presence of commanding alpha males who are building empires. You can't honestly expect her to then come home and feel attraction for a man who's been changing diapers and doing her dishes. Woman value drive and leadership in their men. Few things will dry them up faster then a guy who relies on them. Stay at home wives don't turn off men because we(generalizing here) have different criteria. Men value women for how attractive they are and how affectionate they are; her drive is not a factor either way(unless it causes her to cut back on sex). Just goes to show that no matter how enlightened or egalitarian we want to be we can't twist nature to fit our worldview. The idea that the difference between men and women is just anatomy is pure hogwash. Also i don' t don't mean to say that career women are not suitable for marriage. What i've noticed though is that a man who's happily married to an "alpha female" is at the same or even higher status. But isn't the following scenario just as common? Woman stays at home, man is traditional breadwinner. He comes home, puts his feet up on the table, throws back a beer, waits for dinner to be served. Meanwhile the wife is gradually losing interest in having sex with her hubby because she's tired from all the housework and screaming kids. She wants more help around the house but he only takes out the trash or mows the lawn once a week. Sex dwindles down to once a week, then once a month, then a few times a year. Hubby pleads with wife but things don't improve. Meanwhile hubby starts flirting with the office gal -OR- wife starts chatting online with some guy who will listen to her... -OR- both... and anyway... you can fill in the blanks with how the rest of the story plays out. My point is not to make any gender-specific comments. My point is that there are possibilities with ALL scenarios... stay-at-home Mom, stay-at-home Dad, work-outside-home Mom, Dad, you name it. There are different possible outcomes for every scenario and just because there have been some work-outside-home Moms who have banged alpha office guys doesn't mean that will happen in all scenarios. It's just as likely something will go wrong with the traditional setup too.
Els Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 My family was like this. Mom would do all the housework and cooking, and it was up to me to help her because I happened to be born with one set of genitalia, and my brothers were off the hook because they happened to be born with the other set of genitalia. My father was far from lazy: he worked his butt off to provide, but when he came home, he wouldn't lift a finger to help my mother. He wouldn't even take his plate to the damn sink after dinner. After a couple of years as I got older, my mother started working full-time, and it was still her job to do all of the domestic work. As things stand right now, my father retired, and she's still working full-time and doing almost all of the housework. He's started chipping in these days and will actually put dirty plates in the sink when he's done using them. As for the kids, my brother absolutely believes that it's a woman's job to take care of him. He has never cooked a meal in his life that didn't involve sticking a Hot Pocket in the microwave and pressing start. He's approaching 30 and he's never done laundry. He went downstairs with his girlfriend once, and she told him which buttons to push, but that's about it. He expects her to do everything, and if she leaves him, mom and grandma will pick up the slack even though grandma can barely walk anymore. My mother will still bend over backwards to make sure he doesn't have to lift a finger to take care of himself because she feels obligated. She's told me that she would feel horribly guilty if she didn't take care of him. It's pathetic. Woggle keeps talking about women losing respect for men who earn less? Please, nothing will make me lose respect for a man faster than finding out he's a man-child who needs to be told how to use the f-ing coffeemaker and who says he has no idea how to cook spaghetti unless it's in a frozen prepared meal. How unfortunate. I mean, I can understand her motherly instincts, but sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind, y'know? I don't mean making one's kids scrub the toilet at age 4, but basic stuff such as laundry at 30... How will he ever survive on his own? And WHY is his girlfriend doing it for him?! Is she that besotted?? Sure, I'd pamper the bf on occasion, after he's had a hard day's work, I'll sometimes cook and serve him dinner and bring his plates to the sink and all that... but I would never do it just because he can't be bothered to learn how to do it. A guy who can't do his laundry at 30 is just a turn-off.
The Great Gazoo Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I have seen this often as well. The enlightened men who truly do embrace this kind of dynamic end up getting screwed the worst. She ends up not respecting him as a man. I am going through that right now. I took the time to take care of my kids because everyone else in their world was too busy working to do it. By default I took on that role as I was in University at the time. She lost respect for me, and went grass is greener to look for someone more independent and strong. You can't win for trying.
Richard Friedman Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 But isn't the following scenario just as common? Woman stays at home, man is traditional breadwinner. He comes home, puts his feet up on the table, throws back a beer, waits for dinner to be served. Meanwhile the wife is gradually losing interest in having sex with her hubby because she's tired from all the housework and screaming kids. She wants more help around the house but he only takes out the trash or mows the lawn once a week. Sex dwindles down to once a week, then once a month, then a few times a year. Hubby pleads with wife but things don't improve. Meanwhile hubby starts flirting with the office gal -OR- wife starts chatting online with some guy who will listen to her... -OR- both... and anyway... you can fill in the blanks with how the rest of the story plays out. My point is not to make any gender-specific comments. My point is that there are possibilities with ALL scenarios... stay-at-home Mom, stay-at-home Dad, work-outside-home Mom, Dad, you name it. There are different possible outcomes for every scenario and just because there have been some work-outside-home Moms who have banged alpha office guys doesn't mean that will happen in all scenarios. It's just as likely something will go wrong with the traditional setup too. Yeah all the scenarios are plausible, but the saying they're equally likely is just foolish. I mean there's a nonzero chance that a woman will cheat on a fit husband as well as one who has let himself go. Would say the probabilities are the same? From my experience being a stay at home dad seems like one of the worst attraction killers out there.
eerie_reverie Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Yeah all the scenarios are plausible, but the saying they're equally likely is just foolish. I mean there's a nonzero chance that a woman will cheat on a fit husband as well as one who has let himself go. Would say the probabilities are the same? From my experience being a stay at home dad seems like one of the worst attraction killers out there. For me personally, this is true. I would lose all attraction to a guy who stayed home to take care of kids while I worked - even tho I know I would prefer working to staying home myself. That's why, after having dated lots of guys who were less successful/ ambitious/ aggressive, "more alpha" is pretty much my #1 criteria. There is no way I'll ever get married to someone who wants to stay home. The relationship would never get that far. I'm sure many other women feel differently, but that's the truth for me.
climbergirl Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Any "self respecting" man would have enough gonads to not let something trivial like who earns more money determine whether he is masculine or not. I love this, DM. I really appreciate the men who are self assured enough to not let this bother them. I knew someone who was a SAHD who was perfectly able to make his own money, but yes, his wife made more so he took on the role of SAHD so the girls wouldn't be in daycare. And those girls adore their dad, V. And by the way, nothing emasculate about him (he was a marine). He just had his priorities right. They were able to have one parent stay home...so they did. God, I really hate these threads demonizing SAH parents. The same could be said about those who want to have kids and can afford to stay at home the first years, but choose to pursue their career instead of taking an active role in raising their own children.
donnamaybe Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I am going through that right now. I took the time to take care of my kids because everyone else in their world was too busy working to do it. By default I took on that role as I was in University at the time. She lost respect for me, and went grass is greener to look for someone more independent and strong. You can't win for trying. But it isn't the scenario, it's the woman. There are plenty of women who don't use the almighty dollar as their primary yardstick.
vsmini Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 My friend is married to her stay at home husband who is a wonderful father of 3 while she is a physician. They have a wonderful relationship and it works out fine.
Olivia1966 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 are his child support payments the other half? If my job paid half what his job paid (which it doesn't -- yet), I could get along without child support at all.
thatone Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) If my job paid half what his job paid (which it doesn't -- yet), I could get along without child support at all. but it doesn't. and you don't. i'm not complaining about the idea of child support, he made the kids with you he should help pay for them. but don't pretend to be so independent of him, you're not. Edited May 24, 2011 by thatone 1
Eve Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 The house Hubby idea would not have worked in our household because my Hubby is pretty inept at such things. He could not manage all four kids, the home, study and part-time work as I did. Please.. someone would have died. I earn more than my Hubby - much more but we don't sweat about financial things. I suppose once on a spiritual path you kind of see aspects of life as gifts rather than being the sole product of money. Joint motivation etc pretty much has created everything we have and with that has come a deep security in knowing that we will support each other, come what may. .. but no, would not have worked for us. Hubby has to be doing something or going somewhere with the kids. It has taken him years to master changing the bed linen and turns into a dictator if he cleans a room; he expects the room to remain in that state forevermore! .. and now we are looking at retiring early... so I guess it has all paid off. Take care, Eve x
RecordProducer Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 If you think being a stay at home spouse is such an honorable responsibility equal to being a breadwinner, how many of you would by your own choice gladly be the breadwinner and support a stay at home husband?I would love to have a husband who's staying at home and taking care of my kids and the house - as long as he is filthy rich.
Woggle Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 But it isn't the scenario, it's the woman. There are plenty of women who don't use the almighty dollar as their primary yardstick. It might be one woman but it happens many times. At least eerie reverie is willing to be honest about it. There are some enlightened women who are okay with it and I suspect those numbers will increase but in many cases a man has to be an alpha in order for her to stay attracted.
sweetjasmine Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 How unfortunate. I mean, I can understand her motherly instincts, but sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind, y'know? I don't mean making one's kids scrub the toilet at age 4, but basic stuff such as laundry at 30... How will he ever survive on his own? And WHY is his girlfriend doing it for him?! Is she that besotted?? She also comes from a very traditional Catholic family, so it's what she grew up with, too. But she gets very frustrated. I remember one time she was doing his laundry while I was hand-washing something of mine, and she said, "Look, you better find yourself someone who can actually clean up after themselves." She was only half-joking. They've been together for maybe 7 or 8 years, and she's already resentful of having to clean up after him while she works just as hard as he does and works crazier hours that leave her totally drained. And every so often, he can be a real jerk about things. I've heard him criticize her cooking - "What is this crap?". Man I wanted to smack him. He's gotten a little better when it comes to that, since that kind of BS makes her blow up and leaves him eating frozen food, take-out, and McDonald's for the rest of the week. That's the "catch" with dumping all the housework on one partner and not even appreciating what they do. It fosters an incredible amount of resentment, and over time, that kills affection. My mother has enough resentment and anger to last her several lifetimes thanks to feeling like an unappreciated maid for 40 years, and her having to work full-time in her 60s and still clean the whole house by herself while my dad is retired is the cherry on top. My parents care for each other, but there's barely any affection there. Sounds great, doesn't it? I'm sure there are some enlightened fellows out there who would call my SO a mangina for cooking, helping with the dishes, doing laundry, and helping me clean our home, but it works for us. I respect him (see, Woggle?) for wanting to help take care of a home that's also his and I respect him for being a self-sufficient adult who doesn't need a substitute mommy to wipe his butt for him. Sure, I'd pamper the bf on occasion, after he's had a hard day's work, I'll sometimes cook and serve him dinner and bring his plates to the sink and all that... but I would never do it just because he can't be bothered to learn how to do it. A guy who can't do his laundry at 30 is just a turn-off. Yeah, same here. It's nice to do something sweet for someone, especially when they've had a difficult, long day, but it's totally different when they can't do it themselves and absolutely expect you to do it all the time.
sally4sara Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I think its hysterical how most of the men on this site, in many different threads, claim to be swimming in money. Uh huh. Suuurre. Whinging on LS pays real well.
donnamaybe Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 It might be one woman but it happens many times. At least eerie reverie is willing to be honest about it. There are some enlightened women who are okay with it and I suspect those numbers will increase but in many cases a man has to be an alpha in order for her to stay attracted. So what? So she is one of those women who DOES use the almighty dollar as her yardstick. Any man will be hard pressed, then, to determine whether she really loves HIM or his MONEY. Is that the kind of life a man should aspire to?
donnamaybe Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 but it doesn't. and you don't. i'm not complaining about the idea of child support, he made the kids with you he should help pay for them. but don't pretend to be so independent of him, you're not.SHE is probably independent of him. THEIR children, however, are not - yet.
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