8 years, 1 question

[Cyanogen]

Hey guys, first time poster here.

 

I'm 28 and have dated the same girl for 8 years. We don't live together, are engaged, but feel like an old married couple sharing many of the same problems that they face: loss of intimacy, feel more like good friends, fight often, not caring.

 

Basically, throughout our relationship, I have felt like she is extremely controlling and she sees me as stubborn and selfish. She has just about tried to change everything about me and has made progress across the board. I lost all my friends, and only retain one hobby that she has worked down to a minimum.

 

I used to be able to be happy in any situation and often acted silly which she frowned upon stating it reminded her of her manic bi-polar dad. I don't act that way anymore and my family has noticed how I've changed.

 

The only thing I ask of her is to be faithful and to enhance her own life with work/hobby/friends. She has no hobbies, no friends that she spends time with, and she only goes anywhere if I take her (no license or car which is very abnormal where we live). She is completely dependent on me, which I never wanted in a girl, but it also makes it harder to dump her because she has NOTHING.

 

Now, I am at a crossroads because she is giving me an ultimatum. I asked for some time away from her while I finished the last 2 weeks of school (huge workload with full time job). She agreed if I would take her to a theme park and a museum afterwards. Deal.

 

She broke the deal several times and pulled my grades down. After the 2 weeks, she expected my end to come through. Fine. Today, I asked her to go to a theme park with me, she said no because it was too late (10am). Around 4pm, she calls me up ready to go to the park but it closes at 8, I tell her no, maybe tomorrow.

 

She goes in a rage and tells me that if I don't make things up to her, then we are done. ALMOST EVERY FIGHT she ends up being "right" and I am expected to "make it up." She won't tell me what she wants, she just likes to watch me squirm. Sometimes it's flowers, or jewelery, or even taking her out somewhere. Is this normal? It can't be!

 

Being done with her sounds wonderful at this point, but we have so much history, and our lives are so combined that it's scary. There is a chance I will lose my job over a period of time if we break up. She also makes claims on the cat that I have lived with and raised entirely on my own since he was a kitten, but she technically paid for him at the time. I was an idiot to let that happen because she never pays for anything, I should've known it was some rouse. She has a job but only because I got it for her and highly encouraged her to work hoping she wouldn't be so attached to me, it didn't work.

 

Don't get me wrong, she has some good qualities, but I don't think it's worth it anymore. Should I just cut out and take the repercussions, or try to be mature and work things out? We are engaged.

 

Please help, I'm sorry for being so long.

[EgoJoe]

Go to couples counselling.

[Cyanogen]

I don't think there is time for that. She told me I have until noon tomorrow to fix this or she is walking. I don't know if I want it fixed.

 

Also, I have suggested counseling to her before but she adamantly refuses based on the fact that her family (with her crazy dad) has a history of counseling and she got the impression that the counselor just tells you what you want to hear for money.

 

I appreciate the reply though.

[EgoJoe]

Couples counselling is different than therapy. That is fixing it. You need to not give all of your power away, tell her that is your solution (if you want) or YOU are done.

[Mcnulty]

She sounds like a spoilt child who needs to get a life!!!

 

What do you need to make up to her??? The fact that you're studying and trying to make something of your life??

 

She's changed you...for the worse and tries to manipulate you into seeing things her way!

 

You need to get you back, the old you, the one she's tried her hardest to erase over time.

 

Move on, let her go.

[Cyanogen]

So I wrote her a long, thoughtful letter of apology that I honestly put a lot of work and care into writing. I also bought her a bouquet of flowers. After explaining to her what I had prepared for her to "make up", she told me that I got it completely wrong and she is disappointed. She claims I am just being stubborn and purposely not doing what she expects, which is still a mystery to me. I made an honest effort to repair this relationship.

 

I just wish I could talk to someone who isn't emotionally involved who could tell me if she is selfish/controlling, or if I am just being stubborn because I almost want things to end. I only doubt myself because I have had a few relationships before her, all lasting longer than a year, that ended with my exs telling me that I just don't seem to get it. In every case, my exs pursued me after the breakup wanting to start over, but I never broke the NC rules.

 

Is it worth spending the rest of my life dealing with this? Or is the immediate pain of ending an 8 year relationship better in the long run? Will I ever find a girl who doesn't have some quirks that can be unbearable at times?

[Beeotch]

Sounds like a situation you should opt out of instead of being a martyr and trying to "work things out"....some things are huge red flags and signs that it is not meant to be worked out but you both need something else.

 

People often hold on to relationships for dear life no matter how bad and unfulfilling they are thinking there is something noble in that or they will get a prize....when really, they just get more miserable, things eventually come crashing down then they end up feeling upset that they wasted time and should have ended it earlier.

 

Only you can truly know if something is worth it or not....8 years in my opinion is a long enough time to realize if things are getting better or worst or are stagnant. I understand dating for months or even 2-3 years and feeling things out and giving it a chance amidst minor hiccups...but it's been 8 yrs, it is pretty obvious now...and these problems don't seem like minor hiccups.

 

You said it is not worth it....you know more than we do. We ALL have the answers inside ourselves but often look outside for people to validate what we know. Being engaged to someone you shouldn't be engaged to is not a contract or good reason to continue. She seems to have a lot to work on and I am sure marrying her won't fix anything but instead you will now be contracted into a situation in which you were ALREADY unhappy. I always ask myself this about situations in which I feel unsure: "If this turns sour will I kick myself saying I should have known??? Or will I truly be shocked?" That is my intuitive test! If you can say from now that if it doesn't work out you wouldn't be shocked...well there you go.....if at this point you feel like if it doesn't work out you would be knocked over with a feather....then there you go too. If I can already predict things being horrible then I probably should NOT engage that particular situation as my gut is already telling me that I know and all I'm doing is going against it.

 

If you're not going into a marriage, ELATED (even if a bit nervous), CERTAIN and can't wait to spend your life with this person...but instead are on a forum complaining about them...then is that something you really should be doing?

 

It's up to you...but I think you already know what is best.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Beeotch

[Cyanogen]

Thank you for the replies...I really apprecaite it. So it turns out she was looking for me to go out and buy her jewelery to show I was sorry, she admitted this. Even though my car is broken down and won't be taken to the shop until tomorrow, she told me I could ride the bus...I was insulted. It seems like it was always more about her getting something out of this than it was about the apology itself.

 

In the end, I told her I had put enormous amount of thought into the letter because I thought this whole thing was about me wronging her in some way and her needing reassurance that it won't happen again. So the letter and flowers was my final offer. Now she is telling her family we are broken up.

 

This seems completely insane to me, and thank you Beeotch for the quote :

"If this turns sour will I kick myself saying I should have known??? Or will I truly be shocked?

I should have known. I had bad feelings about this relationship since the start, but I stuck with it, probably for the reasons you stated. We had some good times, and a lot of bad fights, some where she got physical with me (I didn't hit back, nor did I let her get away with it, only happened twice).

 

I guess now it's time to heal...I'm done dating for a long time, and I feel like people my age these days are inherently evil.

[Beeotch]

Thank you for the replies...I really apprecaite it. So it turns out she was looking for me to go out and buy her jewelery to show I was sorry, she admitted this. Even though my car is broken down and won't be taken to the shop until tomorrow, she told me I could ride the bus...I was insulted. It seems like it was always more about her getting something out of this than it was about the apology itself.

 

In the end, I told her I had put enormous amount of thought into the letter because I thought this whole thing was about me wronging her in some way and her needing reassurance that it won't happen again. So the letter and flowers was my final offer. Now she is telling her family we are broken up.

 

This seems completely insane to me, and thank you Beeotch for the quote : I should have known. I had bad feelings about this relationship since the start, but I stuck with it, probably for the reasons you stated. We had some good times, and a lot of bad fights, some where she got physical with me (I didn't hit back, nor did I let her get away with it, only happened twice).

 

I guess now it's time to heal...I'm done dating for a long time, and I feel like people my age these days are inherently evil.

 

 

People aren't inherently evil. We often attract people that match some type of issue we ourselves have and the more you focus on working on yourself, the better relationships you attract, believe it or not. You become better at realizing when things are a waste of time or when you're not a good match, you have better boundaries and overall avoid dysfunctional situations a lot more.

 

You can have a great relationship....everyone isn't going to be a good match for you...but when you extract the lessons from the past 8 years and analyze your own part in the situation and work through it, you'll come out on the other side better

[fetish]

Hey Cyanogen,

 

I'm pretty close to your age. Well, 30. I decided to reply to your thread because we have similar situations. Me and my fiance just broke up this past February after 8 years together. She was such in a hurry to get married last year, i told her that she needed to slow down because i wanted couples counseling before we did. There were still some issues i had with her. She liked to ignore problems and sweep them under the rug, then next thing we're back to fighting again.

 

Your ex sounds like mine, very controlling and manipulative. I know the longer you're with someone, the harder it is to end things. But i'm going to tell you like people have told me on this forum, don't think about how long you've been together because people change. Don't look at the way things used to be, look at the way they are NOW. I second the things on what beootch said. If things are really bad enough for you to be telling yourself, "What's the point? " Then listen to that and don't ignore it. Just think, you will be spending the rest of your life with someone, breaking your back to make someone happy. She sounds like the type who never will be, no matter what you do. She expects you to read minds and gets mad when you don't. She's a bratt who doesn't deserve kindness because she doesn't know how to appreciate it.

 

Take it from me, I spent years ignoring red flags my ex was sending me thinking that she would grow out of it and once we started couples counseling, things would work out. I kept thinking she would change, and she did try for a while, but eventually sllipped back to her bad habits. Well, less than 2 months after we stopped going, everything they told us went completely out the door. 2 months after that, we broke up. We were engaged and living together.

 

 

Now, maybe if you have some hope for your relaitonship, maybe try couples counseling. Who knows, it might help you guys, but both of you have to be committed. If she's not participating in the homework asssignments or pretending like everything is fine in front of the counselor, she's just a front and you know she's not committed. You already know that she doesn't believe in it anyway. So that's not a good sign.

 

If you choose the breakup route, brace yourself. I'm not gonna lie, you are in for some heavy waves of emotional turmoil and pain. Let yourself grieve. If you have to cry, cry. Come to loveshack for support. Find family, friends. Most of all, accept it that its over. You will come out of it eventually. 8 years is a long time for someone to be in your life, actually longer than alot of marriages. It will leave an inprint, but it's one of those pains that make you stronger and grow in the long run.

 

take care

 

fetish

[Downtown]

Will I ever find a girl who doesn't have some quirks that can be unbearable at times?

Cy, you aren't describing "quirks" but, rather, several classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and narcissism. Whether those traits are so strong as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD is a determination only a professional can make. This does not imply, however, you cannot spot strong occurrences of such traits in a woman you've been dating for 8 years. This is not rocket science. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about verbal abuse, controlling behavior, manipulation, jealousy, fear of abandonment, black-white thinking, and lack of control of her emotions and impulses -- all of which you have already observed.

she is extremely controlling and she sees me as stubborn and selfish.

Controlling behavior is one of the hallmarks of BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits). Because they have a strong fear of abandonment, they try to control every important aspect of their loved ones' lives to prevent abandonment.

I lost all my friends, and only retain one hobby that she has worked down to a minimum.

After the wonderful six month honeymoon period ends, the first thing a BPDer will do is try to isolate you away from all your friends and family -- usually claiming they don't treat her respectfully. This is done because it is far easier to control you if you don't have supportive friends saying "That's the most ridiculous explanation I've ever heard in my life ...."

She has just about tried to change everything about me and has made progress across the board. ...I used to be able to be happy in any situation and often acted silly which she frowned upon.

This is more of a narcissistic trait. Whereas a BPDer will try to change you to facilitate her controlling you, a narcissist goes far beyond that, trying to remake you into her vision of the man she deserves. Hence, a narcissist will like you as long as you walk, talk, and dress the way she wants you to do. You are essentially a well dressed object that she uses to support her false image of herself. Whereas a BPDer is capable of loving you (in an immature way), a N is incapable of truly loving you. Like I said, you are describing a woman having features of both.

It reminded her of her manic bi-polar dad.

BPD traits are believed to result from genetics and/or early childhood trauma. It therefore would not be surprising to find it in one parent or the other. As to her dad's "bipolar disorder," I note that there is good chance he is actually suffering from BPD traits because these two disorders are often mistaken for each other. Yet, because my foster son is bipolar and my exW is a BPDer, I have seen several huge differences between the two disorders. The most obvious is that, whereas bipolar mood swings take weeks to develop and weeks to pass, a BPD mood change is actually a temper tantrum that takes 10 seconds to occur and typically lasts about 5 hours. And, of course, her dad may have both disorders.

She has no hobbies, no friends that she spends time with....

Because a BPDer has a weak, fragile sense of who she really is, she may try a wide variety of activities but be unable to stay with anything longer than a few weeks. For the same reason (impoverished self image), she will act differently around different types of people -- using their expectations as a guide to how she should be acting because she has no stable "self" to guide her. Indeed, this is why she would have latched onto you. You provide a strong stable personality that helps to ground and center her. Yet, because she cannot tolerate the intimacy very long, she feels "controlled" by you -- even though she is really the controlling partner.

 

As to your GF having no close friends, I note that BPDers typically have no long term close friends. A BPDer can do very well interacting with business associates, casual friends, and strangers. Heaven help them, however, if they choose to draw close to her. Like you do, a close friend poses two great threats: abandonment and engulfment, which I explain at the links provided below for Inigo's and Katt's threads.

She is completely dependent on me, which I never wanted in a girl, but it also makes it harder to dump her because she has NOTHING.

She is an adult and you are not responsible for her. Indeed, you have been harming her by allowing her to behave like a spoiled child and get away with it for 8 years. Her only chance of confronting her issues is for you to stop "enabling" her childish actions. To do that, you need to strengthen your personal boundaries so you stop being a doormat to that woman.

 

Like me, you are an extreme caregiver whose desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). The reason it is so difficult for you to let go of her, then, is that you are a "fixer" who feels like an utter failure because you failed to fix your GF. You must realize that you had an impossible task because she does not want to be fixed. Rather, she wants to protect her false image of being "a victim" -- always a victim.

 

This is why every time you jumped into the raging seas and pulled her to safety, she turned around and jumped right back into the water within two weeks. And this is why she blames you for every misfortune. Either way -- sometimes thinking of you as a "savior" and sometimes as a "perpetrator" -- she gets verification of her being a poor, helpless "victim." If you make the mistake of marrying this woman, you will spend your marriage seeing the "savior" roles fade away and the "perpetrator" roles occurring every week -- lots and lots of constant blaming.

She agreed [she would not leave me] if I would take her to a theme park and a museum afterwards.

This is the type of "deal" one expects from a young child. I'm surprised she didn't also insist on an ice cream cone. If your GF has strong BPD traits as I suspect, she has the emotional development of a four year old. This is why you see her throwing temper tantrums and doing the "poor little me" routine.

She goes in a rage and tells me that if I don't make things up to her, then we are done.

Of course she throws hissy fits and temper tantrums. This is how a four year old behaves when she has the body strength, intelligence, and cunning of a full grown woman. The other thing making her behavior far worse than a four year old is the tremendous anger she has inside -- anger that is easily triggered by any innocuous comment or action you make, leaving you feeling that you are always walking on eggshells.

She won't tell me what she wants, she just likes to watch me squirm. Sometimes it's flowers, or jewelery, or even taking her out somewhere.

No matter what you buy her, within two weeks she will tire of it. At that point it will be the wrong color or wrong size. And she will blame you -- a process made easier by the fact that you were the one to pick it out. My exW was the same way. If I spent a small fortune, she would be thrilled for two weeks tops. And her mother and sisters are that way too. Lacking a stable self image, it is impossible for them to take a lasting interest in anything.

She also makes claims on the cat that I have lived with and raised entirely on my own since he was a kitten, but she technically paid for him at the time.

If the cat were to suddenly run off (somehow wandering back weeks later), it would be fair of you to reimburse her for what she had paid.

I highly encouraged her to work hoping she wouldn't be so attached to me, it didn't work.

If she is a BPDer, she is so dependent on you because she hates to be alone. Lacking a cohesive, stable sense of who she is, she is utterly alone -- without even a "self" to keep her company -- when she is by herself. Yet, if you stay with her and continue being her "soothing object" and "perpetrator," you will destroy any chance she has of confronting her issues and getting better. Instead, she will only get worse.

 

If this discussion rings a bell, Cy, I suggest you read my overview of BPD traits to see if they sound familiar too. My three posts in Inigo's thread start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2826453#post2826453. That discussion will explain the black-white thinking and endless cycle of push-away and pull-back that are hallmarks of strong BPD traits.

 

If that is helpful, you may want to look at my posts in Katt's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3361912#post3361912. Those posts also provide links to good articles by professionals. If you have any questions about BPD traits, I would be glad to try to answer them. Meanwhile, please start taking care of yourself for a change, Caregiver.

[Cyanogen]

Thank you both so much for the thoughtful replies, I didn't forget about this thread, not in the slightest. I have been ravenously reading as much as I can, and looked at the other posts and articles you referenced Downtown. It's disturbing how you were able to describe my relationship in such detail, and even more disturbing reading my relationship coming out of the words of other people in the same situations.

 

I'm afraid. I haven't been alone since I was fresh out of high school. I don't have a lot of experience in the adult dating scene. I also suffer from deep social anxiety, and have become quite anti-social. My emotions have been dulled to a distant whisper, almost like a cocaine addict who can't get high anymore. I'm afraid that I have worn the pathways in my brain controlling emotions down so much that I simply don't feel them.

 

She screams in the phone so loud that I can clearly hear her, without speakerphone, from across the room. She needs help, but I, the caregiver, am only giving her problems. I want this to be over, and it pretty much is, but I can't seem to let it go. I still answer the phone to listen to this. I still listen to her magical world at full scale war against me after all that I sacrificed for it. She is using words against me that I taught her, and tactics that I should've never shown her. There's no way she will ever find another human being that would put up with this, and that thought triggers more caregiver pangs. Was I put here to be the only one that could possibly put up with her? Was I meant for this task as designed by God? If I move on, she might cease to be able to survive in this world, cease to exist.

 

I know that damsels in distress attract me, but are confident and independent women attracted to caregivers? I'm afraid that even if I know to avoid the ones in need, the ones who don't need anything won't need me. But that is all I could imagine in a woman anymore, independence.

 

If I ever get this relationship to a complete NC stage, I will take a long time away from relationships to heal, and hopefully restore my emotions. I honestly am not lying when I say that she can be bawling her heart out in front of me, and I feel nothing. My coworker just told me today that I sound "like an anime character", what he meant by that is I sounded like an emotionless, monotone, badly dubbed cartoon character. He has been telling me how monotone I sound for months now. It's a constant source of friendly mockery with him, and I try to react and prove him wrong but he just laughs more. It's making me laugh now thinking about it, but the fear of that being permanent is still there.

 

Downtown, how did you do it? I read the other stories you posted but they all seem the same. The BPD leaves. Do I have to start purposely sabotaging her to drive her away? I don't know if I can be that malicious to someone I have loved and protected for 8 years. I do not manipulate or play games, I am a straight shooter. How do I now become a two-faced mastermind?

 

How did you do it after 13 years...go back to dating...or even go back to how you used to be personality wise? Did you ever have your emotions this dull to protect yourself, and did they return? Was it automatic with time, or did you have to try and remember who you were? I'm afraid to stay here, but I am more afraid to change things. It's pathetic, I've never had trouble sorting out my feelings and making the best decision purely based on logic and comparisons between what's good and what's bad. Now, I can't even begin to list what's good and what's bad because everything about this entire relationship fits into both categories! Nothing is based on logic here.

 

I'm sorry if these questions are too personal Downtown, you don't have to answer. At least I can still feel the migraine I have right now.

[Downtown]

Cy, I'm glad to hear that you found the information that Fetish and I shared to be helpful.

I'm afraid. I haven't been alone since I was fresh out of high school. I don't have a lot of experience in the adult dating scene. I also suffer from deep social anxiety, and have become quite anti-social.

Cy, I found it very helpful to focus on what I had, not what I had lost. For example, when I had to undergo surgery, radiation, and chemo for 8 months for cancer treatments, I took it one day at a time and focused on how fortunate I was to be in the 1% of the world's population who had access to such amazing technology. The other 99% of folks getting that type of cancer simply die.

 

Similarly, when my vindictive exW had me thrown in jail for nearly 3 days for "brutalizing her" (at which time I was 62), I focused not on the step-kids and grand kids I was losing but, rather, on the family members I was able to retain. For the first two weeks, however, I was in a state of shock and didn't focus on anything -- but that did pass.

 

As to the social anxiety and anti-social tendencies, it sounds like you might have mild traits of Avoidant PD. If so, it is far easier to treat than BPD. And if it is mild -- as seems likely for a guy in an 8 year relationship -- it is easier still to treat. For one thing, the anxiety can be reduced through medication, which I assume you are already taking. Moreover, if you do have such avoidant traits, you likely are very self aware because you are so self critical. That self awareness (which nearly every BPDer lacks) is a huge advantage when it comes to healing yourself. Are you seeing a clinical psychologist? Or a psychiatrist for meds? If not, why not?

My emotions have been dulled to a distant whisper, almost like a cocaine addict who can't get high anymore. I'm afraid that I have worn the pathways in my brain controlling emotions down so much that I simply don't feel them.

Your analogy of being like a cocaine addict is so very appropriate. Because a BPDer alternates between adoring you one day and abusing you you the next, the relationship is highly addictive to us caregivers who want just one more "fix" of adoration. We want just a few more hours of being the savior on a white horse. And we want the passionate sex. Right now, you are only a few minutes away from getting great, passionate, makeup sex if only you will lower your personal boundaries and do exactly what your childish GF has been demanding. She likely would be back in your bed today if only you say the magic words -- and also promise her an ice cream cone.

 

It is this addictive nature of the relationship that makes it so toxic and damaging to both of you. Yet, the fact that you have been willing to go through the painful withdrawal symptoms to escape from that toxic relationship is a strong sign you have gotten much stronger in recent months -- which is why you've had the strength to enforce your personal boundaries.

She screams in the phone so loud that I can clearly hear her, without speakerphone, from across the room. ... but I still answer the phone to listen to this.

Yes, she is a screaming brat throwing hissy fits and tantrums. Yet, as I explained above, this toxic relationship is not something SHE is doing to you but, rather, something you BOTH are doing to each other. You have contributed BIG TIME. At the moment, your contribution to the toxcity is your choice to keep answering the phone, allowing her to continue acting like a four year old and getting away with it.

She is using words against me that I taught her, and tactics that I should've never shown her.

Vindictiveness and meanness are hallmarks of BPDers when they are splitting you black. Like a child, they show no restraint. Instead, they will pull out all the stops in an effort to hurt you. This means your exGF will use all the things you told her in confidence -- the usual confession of frailties and shortcomings that trusted lovers share with one another -- against you by throwing it all in your face, if not to the faces of your friends also. The harsh reality is -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a woman is incapable of trusting you, then you can never trust her, because she can turn on you at any time -- and certainly will at some point. IME, untreated BPDers are incapable of trusting you. This is why you have absolutely no foundation on which to build a lasting relationship with your exGF.

There's no way she will ever find another human being that would put up with this, and that thought triggers more caregiver pangs. Was I put here to be the only one that could possibly put up with her? Was I meant for this task as designed by God?

Those questions would only make sense if you had been helping her. You were not. As the stable person in the toxic relationship, you were the glue holding it together. The toxic nature of that relationship likely has been as damaging to her as to you. Moreover, by enabling her to continue acting like a child for 8 years, you were destroying her best chance of confronting her issues and learning to manage them.

 

Her only chance of growing is to be held fully accountable for her selfish, childish actions. Like any child, she will grow and heal only if she is allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own actions. But you prevented it from happening for 8 years, as I did for 15. This does not mean we should beat ourselves up about it. After all, nobody would teach us this stuff, forcing us to learn the hard way. It does mean, however, that our remaining for so long in a toxic relationship was a foolish choice, not a "task as designed by God."

If I move on, she might cease to be able to survive in this world, cease to exist.

Like me, Cy, you are a hopeless romantic. IME, high functioning BPDers like your exGF have remarkable strength. For one thing, most of them managed to survive a harsh childhood that may have destroyed the rest of us. For another, they are not the "poor little me" victim that they project so well. HF BPDers are tough cookies. If you make the mistake of thinking she is a weak individual who is totally out of control, you are going to be shocked one day when she calls the police to have you arrested, as my exW did to me. As soon as the police knock on the front door, that raging, out-of-control woman will transform -- within seconds -- into a calm, rational, long-suffering "victim." BPDers are excellent actors because they've been doing it every day since the age of 4 or 5. Mostly, they do not do it out of a need to manipulate. Instead, they mostly do it out of necessity because, lacking a strong self image, they are unsure of how they should behave.

I know that damsels in distress attract me, but are confident and independent women attracted to caregivers?

Yes, absolutely. The problem does not lie with those healthy women. Instead, it lies with us codependent caregivers. We don't give love a chance to develop with an emotionally available woman. Because they are stable, their affection for us builds slowly but steadily. We find it hard to settle for slow and steady when we can get fireworks by holding out for an unstable woman. Almost instantly, we will be treated like a golden knight who just rode in on a white stallion -- and within a few weeks she will be professing her love. And, due to her mirroring, we will quickly be convinced we've met our "soul mate."

I'm afraid that even if I know to avoid the ones in need, the ones who don't need anything won't need me.

Whoa. Slow down. There is a world of difference between a woman who desperately needs you around to constantly validate her sick idea that she is "a victim" -- and a woman who simply needs you to love her. By portraying your options as (a) a woman desperately needing you and (b) a woman not needing you at all, you are doing the very same "all-or-nothing" thinking that BPDers do so frequently.

If I ever get this relationship to a complete NC stage, I will take a long time away from relationships to heal, and hopefully restore my emotions. I honestly am not lying when I say that she can be bawling her heart out in front of me, and I feel nothing.

This is why every "Non" ex-partner will tell you that BPDers are emotionally draining and exhausting. You often get to the point where you have no feelings at all. Your mind does that to protect itself from the emotional roller coaster you've chosen to ride for 8 years. I believe you are going to be amazed, however, at how quickly your normal feelings will return. Even so, it likely will be many months before you have a desire to start dating again. In my case -- following a 15 year failed relationship -- I had no desire to date for two years.

Do I have to start purposely sabotaging her to drive her away? I don't know if I can be that malicious to someone I have loved and protected for 8 years.

No, you have it backwards. Letting her go will help her, not harm her. It will allow her to experience -- like any other adult -- the logical consequences of her actions. Hence, the "sabotaging" and undermining you did was not in letting her go. Instead, it was your repeated efforts to keep her mired in the toxic relationship. Specifically, you chose to be her trash can, where she could dispose of all selfish thoughts and misdeeds -- thereby preventing her from learning how to take responsibility for her own bad thoughts. You were her soothing object -- thereby preventing her from learning how to do self soothing, something the rest of us learned in childhood. And you were always walking on eggshells, not being your true self -- thereby preventing her from learning how to deal with the logical consequences of being childish.

 

As to "driving her away," you never had to do that. All you had to do -- and what you actually did do recently -- was to establish a personal boundary and then enforce it when SHE CHOSE to violate it. The logical consequences of such a violation is the termination of the relationship. Indeed, she has already walked out on you. She is GONE.

 

The issue, then, has nothing to do with driving her away. Rather, the issue is whether you stop enforcing your boundaries and meet her demands, buying your way back into her good graces with ice cream cones and jewelry. Those boundaries -- which you worked so hard to achieve -- are being eroded every time you pick up the phone to listen to her screaming.

I do not manipulate or play games

.You are playing a very dangerous game every time you pick up the phone. And you know it. Lest you think I'm being judgmental, I note that -- after my exW had me thrown in jail and after I learned about her BPD on the Internet -- I still kept answering her calls for another year. I did not go NC until she called me one day to ask whether we could ever be friends again. In response, I asked her whether she still believed I told lies every week and was a violent man. "Oh, yes, I still believe that," she said. I replied, "Well, my family doesn't believe it. My friends don't believe it. Even my worst enemy doesn't believe it. Your problem is that you are incapable of trusting me and, for that reason, there is no foundation on which to build a friendship." So I believe strongly that your exGF, absent years of treatment, is incapable of being your friend and you therefore should go NC. But I will fully understand it if you are not yet to the point of being willing to do so.

How did you do it after 15 years...go back to dating...or even go back to how you used to be personality wise?

The "old me" returned within a couple of months. I was amazed. What took longer was the desire to start dating again. As I noted above, that took two years.

Did you ever have your emotions this dull to protect yourself, and did they return? Was it automatic with time, or did you have to try and remember who you were? I'm afraid to stay here, but I am more afraid to change things.

The complete shock wore off in about three weeks I guess. Yet, because my life was being changed so completely -- losing five step kids, five grand kids, and a wife -- I got an anti-anxiety drug to take for several months and did seven sessions with a psychologist. And, for the next year, I made every effort to keep changes to an absolute minimum so as to have some sense of normalcy. Because my job was the only normal activity I had left, I worked 10 hours/day and 7 days/week for that entire year. It kept me active and forced me to keep interacting with people. Essentially, I was at the office all day long for nearly every day that year.

 

Moreover, I had no desire to make any changes to my home or routine. For example, although I needed new underwear, I refused to go out and buy any during that year. Losing my step kids and grand kids (all of whom I dearly loved) was all the change I could deal with. And, like you, I suffer from migraines (for which I take sumatriptan).

Now, I can't even begin to list what's good and what's bad because everything about this entire relationship fits into both categories! Nothing is based on logic here.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. I believe your adult logic already has a very good understanding of the dynamics of the toxic relationship. Your inner child (i.e., the intuitive part of your mind experiencing feelings) simply is not yet convinced. It still does not believe it at a gut level. As I explain in several other threads, it may take several more months -- or even a year -- for your child's intuition and feelings to catch up with your new-found knowledge. You are learning first hand that your intellectual understanding (of codependence and BPD traits) is the easy part.