Maybe women should dress more conservatively

[sanskrit]

Anything that is disrespectful.

 

Brad Pitt says, "Hey, wow nice!" to a passing woman. She turns and smiles as she walks away.

 

Milton Waddams says, "Hey, wow nice! (have you seen my stapler?)" to a passing woman. She comes to LS and makes a "catcaller" thread.

 

"Disrespectful" is contextual and subjective. Redefine please.

[Star Gazer]

He MIGHT be a troll, but I was one of first responses and I JUST logged back in because I have an hour or so free. If I had NOT logged back in, would I be a troll, too?

 

Lucky, LITM also dubbed me a troll, just because he didn't like what I had to say.

 

BUT if you look at Mark11's post history, he does seem to start some controversial discussions...

[denise_xo]

Thank you. And my point is that the women who choose to dress in that manner are playing a huge part in sexualizing themselves, and, dare I say, womenkind as a whole. They aren't just the unfortunate victim of society.

 

I fully agree. But as I said further up, this doesn't translate into it being 'OK' for men do to x, y, z and also relieve them of responsibility. That's the kind of sentiments I worry about, and which are still quite common (as e.g. in the rape trial case I referred to previously). I also believe there are posters in this thread who have said it's OK to cat call a woman with skimpy dress (I'm too tired to go back and find the exact quote right now, it's midnight and I should be logging off!)

 

I like exchanging with you, by the way

[fortyninethousand322]

Anything that is disrespectful.

 

I think a better word is harassment. Disrespect encompasses a lot of behavior. If I roll my eyes when I see a girl walk into a restaurant wearing skimpy clothing, or if I laugh at it/her to my friends, etc., that's disrespectful. It's not harassment though and is for the most part harmless.

[betterdeal]

And that's why women wear sexy clothing.

 

Replacing "provocative" with the synonymous term, "sexy" doesn't change your argument.

 

To provoke male response/attention. It's not a meaningless truism. That's why there's a fashion industry. On the whole, women are obsessed with every aspect of how they look.

And the purpose is to attract male attention, very mindful of competition from similarly minded females.

 

The reason there's a fashion industry is to make money.

 

This thread is about what females do to attract attention, not what males do. If you are a man wearing shorty shorts, you are most likely trying to attract the attention of other males, not females. The genders are not the same.

 

It's about whatever we want to talk about. Don't want to talk about the motives or subtleties? Then don't. I'm free to do so and I don't see anything you can do to stop me.

 

Your use of the language is either unintentionally or deliberately evasive, vague, and ambiguous. You are creating straw men to deflect from the key issue. The fact of the matter is that women who wear sexy clothes do so to attract male attention. Does that mean if they are wearing shorts while playing sports they are trying to do so? Maybe not, if the shorts are part of a uniform or functional.

 

Here we go again. Sexy things are sexy, I get it.

 

If she makes a public display of her sexuality, by showing off nice looking legs in a mini-skirt, then she has deliberately invited public attention. Obviously that doesn't mean "all forms of sexual attention."

 

Yes, nice looking things are nice looking. Perhaps then she should wear a niqab if she wishes to avoid male attention? Nice and easy, clear cut.

 

Please stop talking about emotional intelligence. You are a massage therapist who apparently strips down to his underwear while practicing your craft. That can't possibly be professionally appropriate.

 

Don't knock until you've tried it.

[Lucky_One]

Anything that is disrespectful.

 

S0 - do I agree that a woman DESERVES mistreatment (or anything that is disrespectful) if she dresses provocatively?

 

Honestly, I think that women should be cognizant and realize that they may be judged by anyone if they dress too lightly.

 

I have been in clubs in NYC and seen women there who, frankly, looked like hookers, and the men in our group agreed that they looked like hookers. The women in my group talked as much trash about them as the men did.

 

(I do better with concrete examples.)

 

If a 25 year old walks down the street with a smokin' hot body, an unlined sports bra and a pair of Daisy Dukes and 4" heels, I guarantee you that someone, somewhere will say something to her. (If the heels are lucite, someone will offer to pay her.) If they say "Damn, girl, you are looking fine." then no, I don't consider that mistreatment. If they say, "Damn, girl, you look like you could suck the chrome off my Studebaker", then no, I don't consider that mistreatment. If they say, "Damn, girl, you wanna suck my c8ck?" then yes, I consider that mistreatment.

 

But I reiterate that the girl looked in the mirror before she left home, she knows exactly what she looks like, she knows exactly that she will excite male attention, and she also KNOWS that her father would NOT want her to wear that in public (or even in the backyard to rake leaves).

[denise_xo]

That's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

In my opinion, it isn't. The basic rationale is the same: Woman wears X = legitimates particular disrespectful reactions from men.

[Star Gazer]

"Disrespectful" is contextual and subjective. Redefine please.

 

Yes, "disrespectful" is often contextual and subjective, but also often not. Either way, I'm not about to give you a million different hypothetical scenarios that amount to disrespectful behavior. Perhaps you can rely on the "reasonable woman" standard.

 

That said, you're a 47 year old man. Hopefully you know what's disrespectful behavior to a woman, and what's not. It can probably be defined as: "If it would upset your daughter, sister, or mother to be treated that way, than it's probably disrespectful."

[denise_xo]

OK, first, naming one of the "social sciences" doesn't make a case.

 

Second, life, clothing, appearance, actions, behavior, speech, were pretty much restricted for E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E by the church/king in "all of Europe" except for the top tiny % of aristocracy, and among such aristocratic women, standards of uncovered and covered flesh have fluctuated broadly for centuries. Roman aristocratic ladies often showed nipple, for example.

 

Hate to break it to you, but "life for most people was repressed and stifled throughout 99% of human history in 99% of the world" is not a monopoly of women or any other group for that matter.

 

I'm not 'making a case', I'm referring to what is common knowledge and where it can be accessed.

 

Yes, of course standards for what we wear have fluctuated for centuries. Yes, of course women do not have a monopoly on oppression. Where exactly have I argued such things? Actually, I haven't.

[Star Gazer]

S0 - do I agree that a woman DESERVES mistreatment (or anything that is disrespectful) if she dresses provocatively?

 

Honestly, I think that women should be cognizant and realize that they may be judged by anyone if they dress too lightly.

 

I don't disagree. But my question is whether she DESERVES it. You haven't answered that question.

[fortyninethousand322]

In my opinion, it isn't. The basic rationale is the same: Woman wears X = legitimates particular disrespectful reactions from men.

 

Muslim men who grew up sheltered and in sex-segregated environments are not likely to have the same capacity for male-female interactions as those who grew up in more "conventional" environments. I went to university with several people who went to an Islamic private school, most if not all of them have issues related to immaturity in dealing with the opposite sex. The general population isn't likely to have these same issues contributing to their inappropriate behavior.

[denise_xo]

OK everyone, this was a lot of fun but I'm hitting the sack. Good night

[denise_xo]

Muslim men who grew up sheltered and in sex-segregated environments are not likely to have the same capacity for male-female interactions as those who grew up in more "conventional" environments. I went to university with several people who went to an Islamic private school, most if not all of them have issues related to immaturity in dealing with the opposite sex. The general population isn't likely to have these same issues contributing to their inappropriate behavior.

 

I have lived several years in Islamic societies and have taught teenagers who came straight from gender segregated schools to a coed learning environment. IME they go through a shock in the beginning but get used to it relatively quickly. The underlying cultural norms, however, remain in place.

 

OK, I really am logging off now

[Lucky_One]

That said, you're a 47 year old man. Hopefully you know what's disrespectful behavior to a woman, and what's not. It can probably be defined as: "If it would upset your daughter, sister, or mother to be treated that way, than it's probably disrespectful."

 

That sort of works.

 

But again, there are times, places and scenarios where I am a "different person" than others. If I am in a good mood and feeling great about myself and go off to the grocery store in a short-ish skirt and tank and the produce man drops a cucumber on his foot and whistles, then I smile and walk off, possibly even sucking my tummy and shaking my ass a bit. If the creepy guy at the place I get my oil changed whistled at me, I would glare at him, blow up like a bullfrog, and bitch about him to my friends. If I go out at night, I expect some guy to give me a whistle or a wink, or tell me that I have the finest ass in North America. Do I expect him to push me up against the wall in the hallway outside the lady's room? No, and that would be WRONG.

 

Unless I had asked him to, of course.

[denise_xo]

I'm not 'making a case', I'm referring to what is common knowledge and where it can be accessed.

 

Yes, of course standards for what we wear have fluctuated for centuries. Yes, of course women do not have a monopoly on oppression. Where exactly have I argued such things? Actually, I haven't.

 

...and that should of course have read 'where exactly have I argued AGAINST such things'.

 

GOOD NIGHT!

[sanskrit]

The women in my group talked as much trash about them as the men did.

 

Oh, I like you. That's another subtextual elephant in these types of issues. Much of what men learn is "scandalous" dress, and much of the knowledge about what scanty dress of the woman in question says about her, comes from females who care about them enough to not want to see them hurt, disappointed or ending up paired very badly... because these females KNOW, instinctively or otherwise, EXACTLY about women who do this sort of histrionic display.

 

All the "mistreatment," "disrespect," "cat calling" diversion is rationalization away from the issue. Women are partially responsible, and (at the risk of being called a misogynist... again) accountable for their actions to at least some degree, in how they dress and act.

 

More of your attitude on LS, Lucky One, and these threads needn't be half as long as they end up. Most guys who start these threads do so seeking some sympathy and understanding, and if they get it, as opposed to a "parade of shrieking zealot harridans" brandishing pitchforks and shouting "rapist!" the threads conclude well and quickly.

[Lucky_One]

I don't disagree. But my question is whether she DESERVES it. You haven't answered that question.

 

As I have said, I think that your term "mistreatment" is far too broad and far too opinion based. I don't really think I can answer the question as precisely as you want, when you aren't being as precise with the question.

 

What you are asking me to say is sort of like asking me to stick my head into a lion's cage!!

 

But loosely, yes, I think that women deserve to have men comment on them, their bodies, and their outfits.

 

And many many many times women invite the comments and like the comments.

 

But my statement is very very dependent on what "mistreatment" is and the situation on a case-by-case basis.

[Star Gazer]

If they say, "Damn, girl, you wanna suck my c8ck?" then yes, I consider that mistreatment.

 

But loosely, yes, I think that women deserve to have men comment on them, their bodies, and their outfits.

 

But my statement is very very dependent on what "mistreatment" is and the situation on a case-by-case basis.

 

Using whatever definition of mistreatment you think is accurate, such as your definition of mistreatment above, do you believe women deserve it?

 

If I'm wearing a provocative outfit, do I deserve that?

 

If I'm wearing a low-cut top, do I deserve a comment like, "Man, I'd love to titty-f**k those!" ??

[sanskrit]

I'm not 'making a case', I'm referring to what is common knowledge and where it can be accessed.

 

Yes, of course standards for what we wear have fluctuated for centuries. Yes, of course women do not have a monopoly on oppression. Where exactly have I argued such things? Actually, I haven't.

 

You championed a modern feminist angle on the thread discussion as also involving considerations for the "fact" that women have been oppressed by men in their standards of dress and behavior generally throughout history.

 

That is -not- common knowledge anywhere other than the female studies department, in fact, history does -not- bear out that women have been any more oppressed than men in the fashion you suggest, or rather would you choose to be the "raped spoil of war?" or the "hacked apart conscription soldier dead in the field?" One is still alive, the other is not... life sucks for both.

[Lucky_One]

Of course your use of the passive voice "have been sexualised" is an effort to renounce womens' own responsibility for clothing choices.

 

Last time I checked there was a wide selection of economically priced blue jeans, overalls, sneakers, and flannel shirts on sale at the mall for women. Women have a great deal of choice in what they wear. To the extent their bodies have been sexualized, as you put it, it's because they want it that way.

 

Women have the equivalent available if they care to wear it.

 

I actually agree with this. I pick my clothes carefully; I like for them to fit well, I like to look conservatively sexy, I like to be admired and complimented on my body and how I look.

 

I was with my husband at the mall last week. I wanted to go into Coldwater Creek to look for a specific color cardigan. He winced and said "OMG do you WANT to look dowdy?"

 

Last point. I put on a pair of jeans a while ago while we were spraying water seal on the deck. My son laughed his butt off because they were so high waisted on me; he told me to toss them. He actually sort of likes that his friends and coaches think that I am hot, BUT he gets all ticked off if they say anything 'too far'. Coach said "Hey you good looking thing" when I went to the ball field last week and my son laughed, but when Coach teased if I wanted to share a hotel room for the baseball championship because both of our spouses couldn't come, my son said "Hey Coach! Back off of my mom!!"

 

So even "our" men want us to look good and sexy, but they don't want us to look TOO good and sexy and advertise it too much. There is pride in "ownership", but you want to be owning a classic car, not a pimped out ride.

[reservoirdog1]

This goes for anybody, of either gender.

 

If you choose to dress to be noticed, don't bitch and complain when people actually DO stare at you.

[Lucky_One]

Using whatever definition of mistreatment you think is accurate, such as your definition of mistreatment above, do you believe women deserve it?

 

If I'm wearing a provocative outfit, do I deserve that?

 

If I'm wearing a low-cut top, do I deserve a comment like, "Man, I'd love to titty-f**k those!" ??

 

If you are wearing a provocative outfit and someone says "Man, you look fine", then yes, you deserve that.

 

If someone offers to titty-f**k your titties, then no, you don't deserve that.

 

There are definitely 'lines'. There are definitely interpretations of 'mistreatment'. And actually there are connotations to 'deserve'.

 

If I work hard and I know that working hard will get me a promotion, then yes, I deserve it. I knew what I wanted, I knew how to get it, and I was rewarded.

 

If I put on the Miraculous VS bra (adds 2 cup sizes) and wear a size small tank and get propositioned, then yes, I deserve it. I knew what I wanted, I knew how to get it, and I was rewarded.

[Darren Taylor]

This goes for anybody, of either gender.

 

If you choose to dress to be noticed, don't bitch and complain when people actually DO stare at you.

 

 

And this my friends, is the point of the thread and my point exactly. Thank you very much.

[Star Gazer]

No, I agree that a woman who dresses provocatively is seeking to be recognized by men for her sexuality. If she is recognized by men for her sexuality, she has no basis to be surprised or offended by that, since that is why she dressed provocatively in the first place.

 

You turned that into catcalls/rapes/Nazis/killer robots from the future, for some reason which I don't really understand.

 

Correction: I did not turn your statement above into anything. I agree that a woman who dresses provocatively should not be surprised if she receives cat calls. What I disagree with, and what focused in on, were DARREN TAYLOR's statements that women DESERVE mistreatment for dressing provocatively, as thinking anyone DESERVES mistreatment based on what they wear is a slippery slope to thinking like a rapist.

 

Reading comprehension people, reading comprehension.

[sally4sara]

I'll wear what I like as I've always done since I could work a job thank you very much.

 

Sometimes you will cross paths with morons. They are to be ignored.

 

Sometimes you will cross paths with people who have class and show their appreciation for the way you look by opening a door for you or paying you a respectful compliment. They get a smile and thank you.