fascinated Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Am I the only person who deleted all their facebook messages after reading that?
YellowShark Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) The affair partner, in choosing a cheater, is specifically selecting for infidelity, lying, and deception in relationships. End of thread. ...and this has been my philosophy since I became a BS. Why in hell would you choose a partner who is proven deceptive, manipulative, and can easily throw the people closest to them under a bus? Is that really "a soul mate?" Sounds like a total ********* to me. For all you know they probably have another OW/OM in the closet... you don't know.. if they can cheat on the spouse don't be ridiculous and think they ALSO are not cheating on you - the OM/OW. Edited May 22, 2011 by YellowShark
Emme Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 This is where I totally disagree and where strong boundaries come into play. You should have never LET your heart feel that. Knowing he was married you should have steered clear of him. That's what people with good boundaries do. You do not fall in love in an instant. You have to allow yourself to fall in love and you should have never gone ther. You would think that is the case. But nope! Someone who took a oath in front of god and 200 people that boundary gets thrown out the window. Some people do fall in love with one glance. That chemical attraction is instant and it's down hill from there. A lot of people would like to control love as though it's a dog or a pet. It's not. You can't teach it tricks and expect it to listen on command. Emotions are a deadly and silent. Sometimes you don't even see it coming.
donnamaybe Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 You would think that is the case. But nope! Someone who took a oath in front of god and 200 people that boundary gets thrown out the window. Some people do fall in love with one glance. That chemical attraction is instant and it's down hill from there. A lot of people would like to control love as though it's a dog or a pet. It's not. You can't teach it tricks and expect it to listen on command. Emotions are a deadly and silent. Sometimes you don't even see it coming. Let's not confuse lust with love. You may be instantly attracted to someone on first meeting, but if you later found out the guy was an abuser who tortured the family pets, would you love him?
greengoddess Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Let's not confuse lust with love. You may be instantly attracted to someone on first meeting, but if you later found out the guy was an abuser who tortured the family pets, would you love him? YUP I believe in lust at first sight. Not love at first sight. Lust is immediate, love is earned.
26pointblue Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 I think fear has to creep in. Not even fear so much of karma but fear of do I really know this guy? He's a cheater. Could he be sneaking around on me even though I know he loves me. Cheaters often love their wives thye just need more excitement. GreenGoddess I always enjoy your posts & respect your opinion but I think you are really overgeneralizng here. Yes some cheaters just love their wives but need more excitement. This wasn't the case with Tinani's husband, clearly- their marriage was dead, he left his wife & married Tinani. Therefore he did not love his wife or at least not enough to stay with her over going to be with Tinani who he truly loved. In this situation I don't think the normal 'he loves her & will never leave her & you are just his excitement on the side' still holds up, although I do agree it's often true in many affair situations. [Actually I believe that usually the MM does truly have feelings for the OW but not as much as he loves either his wife and/or his lifestyle that he knows -- & also that it's often enhanced or caused by the feelings of thrill & excitement.] I do know of couples who started off as an affair, got married & were happily together for a long time. It does happen & I don't think 'if he cheated with you he'll cheat on you' is always true- although as usual there is truth to many sayings . . . it doesn't make it always so. Anyway since Tinani didn't mention fear of him cheating or distrust then I feel you might be projecting some of this stuff onto her thread when she has been upfront about it being about guilt & realizations of what she herself did -- not about doubt about her husband being able to be faithful to her. From everything I've read from her posts, she & her husband are very much in love & don't have that concern.
greengoddess Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 GreenGoddess I always enjoy your posts & respect your opinion but I think you are really overgeneralizng here. Yes some cheaters just love their wives but need more excitement. This wasn't the case with Tinani's husband, clearly- their marriage was dead, he left his wife & married Tinani. Therefore he did not love his wife or at least not enough to stay with her over going to be with Tinani who he truly loved. In this situation I don't think the normal 'he loves her & will never leave her & you are just his excitement on the side' still holds up, although I do agree it's often true in many affair situations. [Actually I believe that usually the MM does truly have feelings for the OW but not as much as he loves either his wife and/or his lifestyle that he knows -- & also that it's often enhanced or caused by the feelings of thrill & excitement.] I do know of couples who started off as an affair, got married & were happily together for a long time. It does happen & I don't think 'if he cheated with you he'll cheat on you' is always true- although as usual there is truth to many sayings . . . it doesn't make it always so. Anyway since Tinani didn't mention fear of him cheating or distrust then I feel you might be projecting some of this stuff onto her thread when she has been upfront about it being about guilt & realizations of what she herself did -- not about doubt about her husband being able to be faithful to her. From everything I've read from her posts, she & her husband are very much in love & don't have that concern. Point taken. I just have a hard time understanding why if you are done with your marriage and don't love your wife any longer WHY CHEAT? I just can't overlook that part of a person's character. Cheating is too big of a character flaw to me to get past and I guess I project that to others believing that you really can never fully respect a cheater no matter how much you love or how hard you try.
Silly_Girl Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Point taken. I just have a hard time understanding why if you are done with your marriage and don't love your wife any longer WHY CHEAT? I just can't overlook that part of a person's character. Cheating is too big of a character flaw to me to get past and I guess I project that to others believing that you really can never fully respect a cheater no matter how much you love or how hard you try. You call it a 'character flaw'. I call it a 'behaviour'. I know lots of people who live very differently than they did five, ten, twenty years ago. Different principles, priorities. I know one miserable selfish grumpy b*stard who everyone was wary of for fifteen years who fell ill overseas and nearly died and is a positive joy to have around ever since (for five or so years now). I know of traits I HATE in my father, really detest, yet he is a good man. That perception of the 'cheater' label is something you just can not or will not consider as anything other than disgusting, or reprehensible. Which is your right, but not everyone agrees with you.
greengoddess Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 You call it a 'character flaw'. I call it a 'behaviour'. I know lots of people who live very differently than they did five, ten, twenty years ago. Different principles, priorities. I know one miserable selfish grumpy b*stard who everyone was wary of for fifteen years who fell ill overseas and nearly died and is a positive joy to have around ever since (for five or so years now). I know of traits I HATE in my father, really detest, yet he is a good man. That perception of the 'cheater' label is something you just can not or will not consider as anything other than disgusting, or reprehensible. Which is your right, but not everyone agrees with you. I just don't consider lying, gaslighting and sneaking around to be positive traits. EVER.
Silly_Girl Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 I just don't consider lying, gaslighting and sneaking around to be positive traits. EVER. And I didn't say they were.
JaneyAmazed Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 The heart is a powerful machine and the mind can try it's hardest to control it... but in the end the heart wants what it wants. To fall in love with someone and to lose yourself can't always be controlled. We are not robots with coding. . Because I've been there, I know that I did all the things that lead up to letting my heart get involved. It was so stupid. In a way, I did control it because I opened my heart to a man I knew I shouldn't be with. Once I was in love, my heart wanted to rule my brain. It does want what it wants and I let my heart rule for 4 months. I finally made the choice to walk away. Someone else mentioned this, but we have to set boundaries so that the heart doesn't get involved. If you do fall in love with someone that's not your spouse or someone else's spouse, the common sense, integrity and compassion for the BS (yours or his/hers) has to take priority over your heart. You're right, we are not robots, so we can choose to stop seeing someone even if we love them.
Emme Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Because I've been there, I know that I did all the things that lead up to letting my heart get involved. It was so stupid. In a way, I did control it because I opened my heart to a man I knew I shouldn't be with. Once I was in love, my heart wanted to rule my brain. It does want what it wants and I let my heart rule for 4 months. I finally made the choice to walk away. Someone else mentioned this, but we have to set boundaries so that the heart doesn't get involved. If you do fall in love with someone that's not your spouse or someone else's spouse, the common sense, integrity and compassion for the BS (yours or his/hers) has to take priority over your heart. You're right, we are not robots, so we can choose to stop seeing someone even if we love them. The only thing I can tell people is to know that you have lived and hopefully you have learned. Those that just continue to live the cycle over and over again be it a different man or woman there is a reason why. Try and figure out the reason. The direction anyone chooses in the end is up to them. No one can make them go down a path they're not ready to walk. It's as simple as that.
Emme Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Let's not confuse lust with love. You may be instantly attracted to someone on first meeting, but if you later found out the guy was an abuser who tortured the family pets, would you love him? If you ask some couples they state they new at first sight. It's just what ever the emotion is they feel. I can only speak for myself. There are women out there in love with convicted felons and serial killers, forget about pets.
Author TinaniT Posted May 22, 2011 Author Posted May 22, 2011 when she has been upfront about it being about guilt & realizations of what she herself did -- not about doubt about her husband being able to be faithful to her. From everything I've read from her posts, she & her husband are very much in love & don't have that concern. This is the case. This is more about the doubt of myself and my actions than any doubt of him. I have lots of issues now, but whether he will ever be unfaithful is not one of them. He did go to counseling to confront his issues and how weak he was in handling this, and I don't believe he would cheat again and I do know they had both acknowledged love was gone from their marriage and lost all intimacy before either of them cheated. I'm sure I'm more lenient here because I was weak too, I allowed my ex's implanted fears to control me and cheated instead of leaving instead. It would be pretty hypocritical of me to freak out of that; and not to mention, I know I will never, ever cheat on somebody again (and don't think I would have the first time if the situation not what it was). Okay, so I have read everything, not just this, and thank you. I can't reply to all right now because my son will be back from his dad's very shortly. I guess I need to figure out what is mine to shoulder, that which I simply need to acknowledge as part of moving forward, and what is excessive. I'm not sure there's any set point for that.
donnamaybe Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 If you ask some couples they state they new at first sight. It's just what ever the emotion is they feel. I can only speak for myself. There are women out there in love with convicted felons and serial killers, forget about pets. Love isn't unhealthy for us and dysfunctional. Thank you for making my point for me.
Emme Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Love isn't unhealthy for us and dysfunctional. Thank you for making my point for me. You would be surprised how many happy marriages that makes. Sad but true.
donnamaybe Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 You would be surprised how many happy marriages that makes. Sad but true. We were talking about love, not dysfunctional marriages. We all know those exist.
Emme Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 DufenSchmertz The only thing I can tell you is every one is an individual. The thought process differs for some people. I have been aiming to explain the thought process to assist in helping people understand. Looking at it from another perspective. You are aiming to make sense of factors (lying, deception, and infidelity) that are possibly acknowledged but not even considered. Maybe once in a while your conscience might give you a nudge. In the end affairs are seeking a need and that need is fulfilled with that other person. Some call it lust others call it love. The definition of a word can only be defined by that person and whatever meaning it brings to them. When two people are together they are in there own bubble. Nothing exists that is negative, unless the reality check pops up. No one has the right to be dismissive of what someone feels due to the way it was harvested. Dismiss the act but that's all. When two people are together the only people who know what they feel are them and them alone. It's hard to comprehend because logic dictates us to think other wise. In the end though people see/feel what they choose to. One person may see the sky as pink another might look and say it's purple. Go figure.
26pointblue Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Point taken. I just have a hard time understanding why if you are done with your marriage and don't love your wife any longer WHY CHEAT? I just can't overlook that part of a person's character. Cheating is too big of a character flaw to me to get past and I guess I project that to others believing that you really can never fully respect a cheater no matter how much you love or how hard you try. I think that cheating is a sign of weakness because yes ideally the person would try to resolve the issues in a relationship or exit the relationship before seeking out another partner. However I think that with humans emotions get involved and it is sometimes very hard for a person who is feeling weak and in bad circumstances to walk away from the temptation of having someone there who understands them & wants to be with them, sort of like a distraction/escape from what they are dealing with & usually it does stay just that until it ends but sometimes I think that person finds the strength within themselves to either work on things in their marriage or end their marriage, which they should have done all along. Sometimes someone cheats in a weak moment & then realizes they need to make a change & gains strength to do the hard work & make the hard decisions. Perhaps I am naive but I really believe that & I think stories like Tinani & her husband show that it does happen [not as often as people staying stuck & continuing to stay weak & make the same bad choices- that is much more common, yes]. So if I were Tinani [i still believe this is off topic to her original post but I am flying with it since we are discussing it, sorry Tinani if this is a t/j], I believe I would feel that yes my husband made bad choices [as did I for helping him do that/ being involved in that] but he did learn from them & change, or else he would still be married & cheating. Yes sometimes the wife finds out & kicks the MM to the curb & he ends up with OW, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Tinani [don't know the whole backstory but she says the marriage was dead & he left to be with her, not that the wife kicked him out]. Even then, I still think that if someone hits rock bottom & realizes their choices have consequences & they can't have everything, they can change. Sometimes people are so messed up or self-destructive that the choice has to be made for them, & they can continue to cheat on whoever they're with or they can look back & decide those choices weren't the best for them & they will no longer do that because they've learned from them. As you know I was an OW & I made bad, stupid decisions. I had to hit rock bottom & be faced with really bad consequences, pain & hurt & guilt. But I learned from that & I believe I will never do it again. So I feel it would be hypocritcal of me to say, oh an MM who cheated will always do that. Perhaps he has learned & grown from his mistakes/bad decisions like I did. Why should I say that someone like that can never be trusted or turns me off . . . that would be giving myself the same black mark forever. I realize you may be more prone to this view if you've never been an OW or a MM [there are also many BS who forgive their WS & believe they have changed . . . so, why shouldn't an OW-turned-wife believe the MM-turned-husband has changed?!], but, I'm sure there are bad decisions you have made in life that have had negative consequences that you've learned & grown from & that you don't feel mark you as a bad person forever. So maybe it can be the same for an MM. I do realize there are people who habitually cheat . . . it's their MO & they get off on it & don't care who they hurt ever, etc. . . . but I also believe there are good people who cheat & learn from it & stop. Just like I believe there are good people who are OW & learn from it & stop. To me those are hurtful behaviors to everyone involved including the person doing it, so I have to believe that the people doing them are either defective & will never change, or that they will learn from their mistakes & change. I think there are both kinds of people & they can't all be painted with the same brush. Thanks for the discussion GreenGoddess. :-) And Tinani maybe this isn't actually too off topic & could help you because it's a way to look at yourself then versus now? We are only humans who learn & grown hoepfully from our past. I look at it as, I was involved in a situation I shouldn't have been in, I made decisions that hurt myself & others, but I didn't know then what I know now. Now I am stronger in character & have more knowledge. And as I was saying before I don't regret loving xMm or our time together; it was all just a learning experience & now I will improve my decision-making skills. :-) You seem to be doing the same thing [i'm not trying to toot my horn, I still have a long way to go, I'm just trying to say how I deal with this issue], & I think that is all you can do. Just keep moving forward & learn from the past but don't dwell on it negatively if you can help it. Just love yourself & your husband & know that you are doing all you canf or where you are now. :-) Best wishes.
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