Self Identity Issue?! What is a real MAN.

[Sivok]

A real man is someone who is confident, driven, and understands that everything great in life must be worked hard for. He isn't afraid of failure, because he knows how to overcome it. He isn't easily swayed and pushed by others - his ideals and sense of self are his own. He understands the importance of fantasy, but doesn't let it overshadow or interfere with reality - more so drive it. He demands respect not through his words, but through his demeanor - and these are personal borders he is not willing to compromise. Most importantly - especially interms of women - he is not afraid to lose something if it means staying true to the standards he has set for himself... As well as earning something much greater in return

Edited May 20, 2011 by Sivok

[KR10N]

Your concept of a man is strange. What's considered feminine, being emotional, dressing girly & telling all your BFFs you love them? Guess I suck at being feminine. Quite frankly, there are a lot of menly men who share their feelings. Guys who show that they care & smile a lot is a turn-on... especially if they have a nice smile.

[Sivok]

Another note. Your sensitive side can destroy your success with women, but honed correctly this trait can transfer you into a master seducer. Think Rudolf Valentino. He dressed and moved with a grace of a woman, but was considered the greatest Sex Icon in the 1920s.

 

Here's a thing not many people think about... The way the opposite sex's mind works is something we will never fully be able to comprehend (regardless of how much we claim we may), and what do we do when we encounter the unknown? Our guard is raised. However, if we encounter a member of the opposite sex with traits that may resonate with us, our comfort levels are immediately raised. You can use your affection and empathy to develop a quick level of comfort and understanding between you and a woman, and with that guard down - you can apply assertive masculinity to skyrocket their attraction for you.

 

This works both ways as well. Back in the 1920s, Salome was a very rare gem of a woman. She carried her femininity in her looks and seductive manner, but was very masculine interms of her thought process. She was a powerful literary figure, and was known as the woman who broke Nietzche's heart. She talked philosophy, politics, and literature with the greatest of men - but unlike other women, she could care less for commitment - infact, she was afraid of it. Sound familiar, guys? This combination of masculine mindset and feminine beauty caused her to break the hearts of some of the greatest figures of the time, as well as drive some to suicide...

 

Anyway, I guess I ran on a bit of a tangent there... But don't think of your empathy and romanticism as a negative trait - just don't let it overshadow what it means to be a true man: which is what i stated in my post before this one.

[Woggle]

Of all the crap I have seen people spew on this board, I have never seen anyone talk about fathers being disposable except for YOU. You seem to have a fixation with the idea.

 

 

I had a pretty crummy dad, and it definitely left some scars. Nothing I can do about that, except heal them the best I can, which is what I have been doing all my life.

 

I think that good fathers (and good mothers, for that matter) are rare gems. Most people don't really know what they're doing, and this includes parents.

 

I have a fixation with the idea because it is something that is promoted in our society. You see an epidemic of women who prefer to go the sperm donor route and our culture promoting this as a statement of female independence. Men have gotten the message that we are neither needed nor wanted in the modern family.

 

Women complain about men today but in actuality they have gotten what they have claim to want for a few decades now and are now unhappy with it. They wanted a sensitive man and they wanted to smooth the rough edges that made men who we were and now that it has been achieved they want to change it back to the way it was. Is it any wonder why men are so damn confused these days?

[Dust]

You’re either aggressive or passive aggressive. Women generally prefer aggressive men. You sound passive aggressive. I mean just coming on a website and acting confused is extremely passive. You know who you are so be it. Stop being so terrified of what might happen. Only you know how to motivate yourself. When opportunity strikes its your job to take advantage. People in general will respect you more the less you “try” to please them, and the more you just do what you want. (makes you genuine, some one to respect as opposed to a weak people pleaser)

[PelicanPete]

 

I think the definition of a real man, at it's core is simply a man who defines himself. And refuses to let others define him.

 

I think this is the closest were going to get. The details of a "real man" are going to be different to everyone depending on their own perceptions, experiences, and reality.

 

Some people are gonna think a real man is someone in touch with his emotions, other people are gonna think a real man is someone big, strong and living off the land. Just like for over half the questions posted on the Dating forum, there is no detailed universal answer that pleases everyone. Just be who you are. If people don't like who you are, screw em.

[Ruby Slippers]

I have a fixation with the idea because it is something that is promoted in our society. You see an epidemic of women who prefer to go the sperm donor route and our culture promoting this as a statement of female independence. Men have gotten the message that we are neither needed nor wanted in the modern family.

Where do you see this? Do you know anyone personally who has gotten artificial insemination to start a family as opposed to finding a man?

 

Every woman I know who does not have a good man wants one, myself included. No woman I know wants some anonymous sperm instead of a man.

 

I only heard of one friend of a friend who was considering artificial insemination, and that's because she has major social awkwardness, lives with her mother, and says she has no hope of meeting a man, but wants children. So she and her mother have agreed they will raise the kid together. Bad idea, in my opinion, but it's their life.

[Woggle]

Where do you see this? Do you know anyone personally who has gotten artificial insemination to start a family as opposed to finding a man?

 

Every woman I know who does not have a good man wants one, myself included. No woman I know wants some anonymous sperm instead of a man.

 

I only heard of one friend of a friend who was considering artificial insemination, and that's because she has major social awkwardness, lives with her mother, and says she has no hope of meeting a man, but wants children. So she and her mother have agreed they will raise the kid together. Bad idea, in my opinion, but it's their life.

 

I hear it all the time in society. I used to have a coworker that said if she could do it over again she would have just used a sperm donor and forgot about the man. One of her favorite sayings was that once the seeds were planted you throw away the bag. Just look at the increase in single mothers and it is obvious that in many circles fathers are simply not seen as important. My mother used to call my father a drone all the time and if you know anything about bees you know what that means.

[Ruby Slippers]

I hear it all the time in society. I used to have a coworker that said if she could do it over again she would have just used a sperm donor and forgot about the man. One of her favorite sayings was that once the seeds were planted you throw away the bag.

So, one bitter coworker's scrambled thoughts speak for all of womankind? I have worked with some crazy weirdos in my day, but I did not take their random opinions as the gospel.

 

Just look at the increase in single mothers and it is obvious that in many circles fathers are simply not seen as important.

The guys in my past who grew up without dads did so for these reasons:

 

1. His dad was an alcoholic who beat his mother, so she left.

2. His dad cheated on his mother and left when their son was a small child.

3. His mother had been abused and was kind of crazy and left her husband.

4. His dad died at a relatively young age of cancer.

 

My mother used to call my father a drone all the time and if you know anything about bees you know what that means.

Haven't we established that your mother is completely consumed with anger and mental anguish?

[Woggle]

I know my mother is a complete nut job but anti-father mentality is pretty commonplace.

[Disillusioned]

I think the definition of a real man, at it's core is simply a man who defines himself. And refuses to let others define him.

 

In my case, I'd take it even further.

 

I'm the kind of person who resents it when anyone tries to pin me down and categorize me like an animal in a zoo. I rather like being indefinable.

 

Like a lot of '70s boys, I grew up without a father after age 5 (he was a womanizer, which explains a lot about why I don't have a high opinion of promiscuity), and although my mother had a problem controlling her temper---apparently this is always a problem for smart kids with average parents---I will give her credit for one thing, she'd never stand for me giving in to peer pressure. Sure, I was the sad kid who had CTD (= cool toy deprivation), but I stayed out of trouble and even moved back in to take care of my mother when she was dying of cancer. That only lasted five weeks, because her arteries were shot.

 

Worse (or better, depending on your level of sadism), I'm an only kid, so surprise, I was expected to be the man of the house whether I thought I needed it or not. So, in addition to everything being MY FAULT (from spilled milk to the Crash of '29), I didn't have an adolescence. My mother was raisedbyfamily members who grew up in the Depression, and they thought men who had desk jobs weren't really working---men had to herk it. I never enjoyed herking it; in fact, I suspect my family bred me to be a big, dumb walking forklift, but something went wrong and I ended up brighter than them.

 

Nowadays I look around and can't help but think these generations of younger men are spoiled by that if-I-never-went-to-college-I'd-be-nobody mentality. These are guys who don't have to learn the things I had to learn to get by---sew, cook, make things, fix things, and not live in a disposable world. These younger guys are afraid to get their hands dirty.

 

I grew up believing that he who dances must pay the piper, but when I started needing emotional bonding, guess what, that rule no longer applied. In the world of love, I paid the piper but never got to dance.

 

And that, everybody, is why I go around breaking all the rules and pissing people off. I give as good as I get, so don't anyone EVER call me a "nice guy". I'm not.

[Ruby Slippers]

anti-father mentality is pretty commonplace.

Well, I can see you are clinging to this opinion. Might I suggest that you consider trying on a different one for a while? Your old way of thinking isn't going anywhere, so if the new way doesn't work, you can always come back to that.

[Woggle]

How do you explain all these famous women having kids without fathers? Maybe it is not all or even most women but the attitude that some people the media and society have shown to men is that we don't matter in the family.

[Ruby Slippers]

Like a lot of '70s boys, I grew up without a father after age 5 (he was a womanizer, which explains a lot about why I don't have a high opinion of promiscuity)...

This reminds me: I have noticed that men who grew up without fathers present often have very negative opinions of men, usually because their mothers brainwash them into believing all men are bad.

 

A guy talking about what losers men are -- that just doesn't sit well with me.

[Ruby Slippers]

How do you explain all these famous women having kids without fathers? Maybe it is not all or even most women but the attitude that some people the media and society have shown to men is that we don't matter in the family.

Famous people live in another world where things are much more disposable and replaceable even than they are for non-famous people -- and this is already bad these days, even for normal people. Very few celebrities stay married to the same person for long, for example. They are constantly reinventing themselves and switching up the players in their personal tragicomedy.

[Darren Taylor]

My dad was around, but he wasn't a real father. While he did contribute financially, he did next to nothing after that. As a kid, my mom had to literally force him to go out and play catch with me or whatever else I wanted to do.

 

They split up when I was 14(not at all surprising) and I'm surprised they made it that long. They had problems since day 1 of their marriage and my mom should have left when I was 4(long story, but she decided against it). My dad has 4 kids(including me) with 3 different women and none of them have anything to do with him. He's also been married and divorced 4 times.

 

Point is too many kids lack dads. It's important to separate the words "father" and "dad". Any guy can contribute financially(father), but it takes a real man to be there for his kids(dad). Even if my dad didn't have the greatest income, he would have made much more of an impact had he been a positive role model.

[Disillusioned]

This reminds me: I have noticed that men who grew up without fathers present often have very negative opinions of men, usually because their mothers brainwash them into believing all men are bad.

 

Bull. When my old man wasn't out chasing women, he was kicking back in his easy chair, watching football. My only memories of him are of him sitting on his butt in that stupid recliner of his.

 

A guy talking about what losers men are -- that just doesn't sit well with me.

 

Well, tough. Let them get their hands dirty and win without cheating. Bet they'll never take anything for granted again.

[sanskrit]

Well, I can see you are clinging to this opinion. Might I suggest that you consider trying on a different one for a while? Your old way of thinking isn't going anywhere, so if the new way doesn't work, you can always come back to that.

 

Woggle is right, but stripping fathers out of the family equation is being done largely as a result of the "single motherhood" welfare/child support cottage industry epidemic in much of the poorer suburban and rural areas of the country today rather than via sperm banks. The women who do this for a living do so with the intent of excluding the man entirely once he's trapped via his sperm, they just want the check. Of course you don't see these types in your typical urban Starbucks or Marshall Fields as they don't sell liquor, cigarettes and lottery tickets there.

[Sassygirl2]

Yeah, I have to agree with Woggle and Sanskrit here. I personally work at an adult school and 95% of my students are single mothers on welfare. Just so happens it is my job to make sure these women GO to school and DO their jobs and or work experience. You wouldn't believe the amount of garbage I hear and see. The sad thing is that the children are paying for this. They grow up poor, lacking social skills and think it's normal for Mom to have 4 different "baby daddy's" coming around. It really makes me sick which is why I'm looking for a new job.

[O'Malley]

As far as what constitutes a real man, that's highly variable, I guess. There are chronological men who seem like boys to me emotionally, because they dont' take responsibility for themselves and their lives, and/or because they avoid complex adult relationships and always operate at a selfish surface level. However any man who acts like an adult and takes care of his **** and tries to understand and relate to others in a meaningful way, is emotionally a 'real' man IMO. None of that has anything to do with what his hobbies are, and actually suggests that he is NOT emotionally walled off from everybody.

 

I agree with the above. Of the genuine 'real' men I have known in my life (and both of my long term relationships were with such individuals), they were thoughtful, integral, introspective, but they weren't rigid or perfect -- however, they were responsible for their actions, and had an understanding of and empathy towards other people. Neither were extroverts, or could be defined as stereotypical alpha males; what I did notice is that people did gravitate towards them due to their personalities, and thought of them as good individuals.

[musemaj11]

I found The Manipulated Man online, will start reading it.

 

And I don't agree with Tom, if it's the person I'm thinking of. But he's a conservative, and I'm a liberal.

I dont listen to Tom for his political views. I listen to him for his gender views.

 

Er, if you have actually read Pride and Prejudice you might want to re-read, as you seem to have Mr. Darcy confused with someone else.

I tried to watch Pride and Prejudice but I couldnt stand it.

 

I dont really know who Mr Darcy is. I merely mentioned him to portray an example of a romantic fantasy of a gentleman that women have.

[MrNate]

Hi, MrNate.

 

To me, a "real man" is essentially the same as a "real woman": he's a person who is true to himself and who lives a life that has meaning and joy for him. Because he is self-sufficient and whole on his own, he has love to give the people in his life he cares about. He doesn't NEED those people, so he doesn't cling to them in desperation. He is complete, so he can give love, and receive it, without grabbing and squeezing the life out of it because he is afraid of losing it.

 

A wonderful description. This is why ruby makes me

[Woggle]

I really hate when women talk that misandrist stuff in front of their sons. Do they have any idea what they are doing to their children?

[Pyro]

I have a fixation with the idea because it is something that is promoted in our society. You see an epidemic of women who prefer to go the sperm donor route and our culture promoting this as a statement of female independence. Men have gotten the message that we are neither needed nor wanted in the modern family.

 

Did you ever stop to think that maybe these women feel as if their biological clock is ticking and would like to have a child before it is too late for them?

 

Maybe they have tried to find a nice guy to start a family with but have been unsuccessful, so instead of just settling for someone just to have a kid with them they go and do it themselves. Would you rather these women marry a guy they have little in common with just to have a child? I'm sure that marriage would last.

 

I hear it all the time in society. I used to have a coworker that said if she could do it over again she would have just used a sperm donor and forgot about the man. One of her favorite sayings was that once the seeds were planted you throw away the bag. Just look at the increase in single mothers and it is obvious that in many circles fathers are simply not seen as important. My mother used to call my father a drone all the time and if you know anything about bees you know what that means.

 

You are the only one here to hear about it ALL THE TIME because you go and look for it ALL THE TIME.

[Sanman]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe these women feel as if their biological clock is ticking and would like to have a child before it is too late for them?

 

Maybe they have tried to find a nice guy to start a family with but have been unsuccessful, so instead of just settling for someone just to have a kid with them they go and do it themselves. Would you rather these women marry a guy they have little in common with just to have a child? I'm sure that marriage would last.

 

That is a good point and perhaps true. However, I think that the question remains about whether this is doing a disservice to your child as he/she is the one that has to bear the burden of not having another parent and all the stigma and problems that this entails. After all, we all want things that don't happen. Being a single parent out of necessity is understandable and commendable, but willfully robbing a child of a father and all the issues that may entail (everything from the stigma of not having a father to being orphaned should something happen to you) is somewhat selfish if you ask me.