superpunk Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 My wife and I have been married for 7 (almost 8) years. We got married very young, too young, at 19. It wasn't easy always but we made it work and recently I thought we had a very healthy relationship. We had been through some major life-changes and came out better than ever. She had had alot of emotional problems, but had worked through them (or so I thought). Fast forward to the time when the problem started, a few months ago. Because of our upbringing we had never had a chance to see other people. We "dated", such as it was, then boom got married. Regardless of how much I loved her this always weighed on me, I always wondered what it would be like - just to date other people, not even necessarily about sex. I was very nervous about sharing these feelings with her, but felt that if I didn't eventually I would act on them deceitfully, and I didn't want to do that. She had been very vocal about the consequences of ever cheating her...said that if I ever wanted to leave, just leave, don't cheat. So I came to her with it, tried to be as honest as I was about how I was feeling. I mentioned options, temporary separation / open marriage, but said at the same time I understand we/she probably couldn't handle that. She said she understood how I felt, because of our history. I felt enormously better about just having shared it with her, and was more than willing to drop it (at least for the time being). I didn't think we could handle any of those options, but I needed to at least be honest about what was in my head. I know now, and probably knew then, that this was an enormous mistake on my part. Whatever I meant by what I said was lost in a sea of emotional responses. What else could she think but that I didn't want her anymore, things like that? I'm so incredibly sorry that I ever mentioned any of it. Well that's exactly how she felt. But she didn't tell me. Instead she mulled over it for a while. I had completely dropped the subject, when one day she tells me that she thinks we could do it (open marriage), we would just have to establish a set of rules first. I was taken aback, never expected that, should have said no I don't think you/we can handle that, but I didn't. Since I had been honest with her, I felt that our marriage had gotten even better! We were connecting on a crazy deep level, or so I thought. Anyhow she told me to prepare a set of rules, and she would do the same, and we would share them with each other that night. I won't bore you with the process, but tell you the important bit. I was having trouble coming up with rules, but I put two down without hesitation. The first was that it couldn't be with anyone we knew. Had to be a stranger. The second was that it absolutely could not be a relationship, had to be just about sex or nothing. Again I am already aware that all of this was incredibly stupid, a huge mistake on my part, but feel free to tell me again what an idiot I was...I probably need to hear it. A month or so goes by, I haven't acted on the agreement and was assuming neither had she. She hadn't gone out with her friends so I knew she couldn't have picked up anyone at any point. Then one night we were sitting around chilling, she was acting a little weird but I assumed she had a rough day. She was texting someone on her phone while talking with me, eventually she says "Oh I took this picture on my phone the other day, forgot to send it to you." She sends it to me, it's a sexy picture of her in her underwear. I thought "How do you forget to send that to your mate? You take the picture, then click send." I started to wonder. I started thinking about how she never let her phone out of her sight, it was always in her hand or right next to her. I thought "Did she break the rules? Has she started a relationship with someone?" I tried to put it out of my head. But a few days later, before I left for work, I was taking a shower. She had left her phone on the bathroom counter. My curiosity got the best of me and I got on her phone, checked the text messages. Near the top of the list was a number, with no name, but there were 200 plus messages in the thread. The phone only keeps 200 messages at a time in any one conversation, so there had obviously been alot more than that. My heart sunk because she had started a relationship with someone, I knew it. But it was about to get worse. I started scrolling up, trying to find out who it was. I got to the top, the phone will not delete picture messages. I saw the picture my wife had sent to me a few days earlier. Then it got even worse. I saw pictures of my best friend, naked, covering his privates, etc. What had happened was, I had told this friend about the arrangement. He started contacting her, playing on her insecurities, telling her what she needed to hear. i.e. "I would never do something like that to you, you would be all I need, etc". The amusing thing is that, he had a wife who was 7 months pregnant. In addition, my wife knew that at the same time he was telling her all this, he was sending messages on facebook to my wife's best friend trying to sleep with her as well! Anyhow they had been talking for weeks, almost a month. Two days before I found out about it, she had gone up to his house on her day off (he is unemployed, supported by his pregnant wife) because they were going to try and have sex. She says they made out, got naked, tried to have sex but he couldn't get hard, said he struggles with that because of anti-depressants he is on. So he tried to at least help her out but she eventually just had him stop. I'm convinced they would have tried again. I saw the text messages, there was no indication that this setback was going to discourage their "relationship" going forward. I understand that I opened the door to this with talk of the arrangement, but for her right off the bat to violate the two rules I was concrete on, knowing how it would affect me if I found out, hurt incredibly bad. I've confronted her, kicked her out. She's begging desperately for me to take her back, I'm not sure what to do. She is going to therapy, counseling, says she is going to take steps so that she isn't the same insecure person who got taken advantage of here. I love her so much, even with the affair I have no doubt about how she really feels about me, this never would have happened if I hadn't stupidly opened my mouth and brought all her feelings of insecurity flooding back. But I don't know that I can get over this. I don't know if the feeling I get every time I'm around her (i.e. I wonder if she was like this for the other guy) will ever go away. I feel selfish and childish when I say to myself "here's your chance, you wanted a chance to sow your wild oats here you go". Anyhow I'm pretty much completely lost right now. Hopefully I can get some feedback, good, bad, damning, otherwise. Feels good to at least write it down. If I wasn't clear about something or you have questions feel free to ask, and thanks for reading.
TigerCub Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Anyhow they had been talking for weeks, almost a month. Two days before I found out about it, she had gone up to his house on her day off (he is unemployed, supported by his pregnant wife) because they were going to try and have sex. She says they made out, got naked, tried to have sex but he couldn't get hard, said he struggles with that because of anti-depressants he is on. So he tried to at least help her out but she eventually just had him stop. I'm convinced they would have tried again. I saw the text messages, there was no indication that this setback was going to discourage their "relationship" going forward. I understand that I opened the door to this with talk of the arrangement, but for her right off the bat to violate the two rules I was concrete on, knowing how it would affect me if I found out, hurt incredibly bad. I've confronted her, kicked her out. She's begging desperately for me to take her back, I'm not sure what to do. She is going to therapy, counseling, says she is going to take steps so that she isn't the same insecure person who got taken advantage of here. I love her so much, even with the affair I have no doubt about how she really feels about me, this never would have happened if I hadn't stupidly opened my mouth and brought all her feelings of insecurity flooding back. But I don't know that I can get over this. I don't know if the feeling I get every time I'm around her (i.e. I wonder if she was like this for the other guy) will ever go away. I feel selfish and childish when I say to myself "here's your chance, you wanted a chance to sow your wild oats here you go". Anyhow I'm pretty much completely lost right now. Hopefully I can get some feedback, good, bad, damning, otherwise. Feels good to at least write it down. If I wasn't clear about something or you have questions feel free to ask, and thanks for reading. Hey OP, Sorry you've gone through such an ordeal. You will get a lot of responses about how open marriages are a mistake. I personally don't think open marriages are bad - BUT...I think it all goes terribly wrong when someone doesn't follow the agreed to rules (as is the case here). I feel that the stuff in bold is unjustified. You're putting the blame on yourself for this. That's not the case! She broke the rules She made it emotional vs. just sex She did that with someone that you knew. Its all on her. If she wasn't ready for an open marriage she should have been honest about it. I really don't think that this is your fault. Many couples try open marriages and for the ones that actually stick by the rules and keep it to strictly sex, for the ones that are actually mature and secure enough to do it - its works out. BUT I think that your w lacked the maturity, she lacked the security and she lacked the respect for you (obvious by her breaking the only 2 rules that mattered to you). As for what you should do - I can't tell you that. I wouldn't take back a cheater, but I've never been in that situation, so I dunno for sure. Good luck to you
Author superpunk Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Thanks for that response, TigerClub. I really need to keep telling myself that. A friend of hers who knew about the arrangement convinced her that she didn't "cheat" in the traditional sense of the word, since we agreed we could sleep with other people - I just took exception to who it was with. Then my wife came over and tried to sell that line to me - which really didn't work because she knows our background and knows exactly how painful what she did was to me. So now I have a nice fist-sized hole in the drywall that I have to fix.
y2k Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Leave her. A woman (or man) who cheats is NOT worth it. Find yourself a woman who will only want to get naked with you....not with some other guy. It hurts, but it's the best path you can take. In the long term, you may be happier.
TigerCub Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Thanks for that response, TigerClub. I really need to keep telling myself that. A friend of hers who knew about the arrangement convinced her that she didn't "cheat" in the traditional sense of the word, since we agreed we could sleep with other people - I just took exception to who it was with. Then my wife came over and tried to sell that line to me - which really didn't work because she knows our background and knows exactly how painful what she did was to me. So now I have a nice fist-sized hole in the drywall that I have to fix. Yeah the friend is telling her what she wants to hear. The way I see it, the minute your W broke the rules of the agreement, that makes the agreement null and void and so it is a cheat. Its not even about the sex - its the fact that she had a different type of R than the one you agreed to. - That's HUGE. She made her choices, you may have suggested the open M, but she agreed to it, she agreed to the rules, and she broke them. She's completely at fault for this. so what's happening with this "best friend"? Does his pregnant wife know what happened?
reboot Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Did she agree because she really wanted to, or because she was trying to make him happy?
danmo Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 First off you need to ask yourself how much you really LOVE her? I see over and over how a lot people will tell you "just leave her" start over, like it's that easy and you can just go to the supermarket and get another woman you love enough to marry any ole day. Look, you initiated this because you thought it would bring some excitement to the marriage - it was not a bad idea so quit beating yourself up. She thought about and decided it would work. She screwed-up and your buddy is a JO for talking her into it. If you love her give her another chance. Talk about what happened, she obviously wants to try out another guy - that's being human. When she comes back, you two most have agreements that will never be broken. Marriage is about trust and love without either you have nothing. My wife and I have a sort of open marriage (on her part) and it works wonders. I love her more everyday and she me. WE have trust and true love that's why it works. you just need to get the trust back.
Entropy3000 Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Sorry. I think you brought it on yourself. I don't believe in open marriages so take my comments from that persepctive. At the very least you had to understand the risk versus reward. Assuming your woman could just be about the sex is very naive, IMHO. All I can say is learn from this. Good luck.
Author superpunk Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Leave her. A woman (or man) who cheats is NOT worth it. Find yourself a woman who will only want to get naked with you....not with some other guy. It hurts, but it's the best path you can take. In the long term, you may be happier. Dude. YOU started it. And she gets all the blame? I thought I mentioned how much I feel terrible for my part in all this. At the same time I am not sure how much to put on myself. I do tend to agree...I got the ball rolling here. And I feel awful for that. Yeah the friend is telling her what she wants to hear. The way I see it, the minute your W broke the rules of the agreement, that makes the agreement null and void and so it is a cheat. Its not even about the sex - its the fact that she had a different type of R than the one you agreed to. - That's HUGE. She made her choices, you may have suggested the open M, but she agreed to it, she agreed to the rules, and she broke them. She's completely at fault for this. so what's happening with this "best friend"? Does his pregnant wife know what happened? Thanks again. His wife knows. The day I found out, I completely raged out. I decided I was going to go to his house and tell his wife and hopefully destroy his motorcycle which I knew he loved. Not really proud of all this but this is what happened. She wasn't there, so I broke into the house to get into the garage and smash the bike, which wasn't there. So I drove to practice (we play football together, and someone else told me he was there) where I took a sledgehammer to his truck then started beating him when he came over to stop me, until a friend subdued me and got me away from him. I feel pretty lucky that no charges have been filed, and that I didn't get pulled over on my way there because things would be alot worse right now if I had... I demanded that my wife send his wife a message detailing everything to her on facebook, because she deserved to know. Haven't heard anything from him or his wife since, so any further than that, I don't know.
Author superpunk Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Did she agree because she really wanted to, or because she was trying to make him happy? I think because she wanted to make me happy. She was afraid if she said no that I would leave anyhow, she says. That seems like a cop-out to me, though, as there were all sorts of things I wanted to do that she didn't have a problem saying no to, without fear of that being some sort of deal-breaker. So I can't fully accept that reasoning. First off you need to ask yourself how much you really LOVE her? I see over and over how a lot people will tell you "just leave her" start over, like it's that easy and you can just go to the supermarket and get another woman you love enough to marry any ole day. Look, you initiated this because you thought it would bring some excitement to the marriage - it was not a bad idea so quit beating yourself up. She thought about and decided it would work. She screwed-up and your buddy is a JO for talking her into it. If you love her give her another chance. Talk about what happened, she obviously wants to try out another guy - that's being human. When she comes back, you two most have agreements that will never be broken. Marriage is about trust and love without either you have nothing. My wife and I have a sort of open marriage (on her part) and it works wonders. I love her more everyday and she me. WE have trust and true love that's why it works. you just need to get the trust back. Thanks for your perspective, if you have a thread that has more to your story I'd be interested in reading it. Sorry. I think you brought it on yourself. I don't believe in open marriages so take my comments from that persepctive. At the very least you had to understand the risk versus reward. Assuming your woman could just be about the sex is very naive, IMHO. All I can say is learn from this. Good luck. Thanks for your thoughts as well.
weedsandposies Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Open marriages and relationships in general just never workout long term. But you already know that now. She broke both rules of having a relationship AND someone you know. What seriously disgusts me is that she chose your best friend of all people. Her cheating wasn't in the sex act but that she broke your rules for the open marriage. BUT you also made a mistake by not keeping it private. Why would you share that info with your friend? You've been betrayed. Maybe take some time alone, no contact with either of them (personally i would never speak to this "best friend" again) for a couple of months to sort things out in your head. BTW, don't bring his wife into it. She's preganant. He's an ass yeah but it's really none of your business what goes on in their marriage.
Lecturer Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Ok, enough of this bull**** that you caused this, or that it was a result of her insecurities (poor her). A woman that is vehemently opposed to this sort of thing would NEVER have come to you and said "draw up some rules". She would have just said "no no no". Yes, you were the first person to say something, but you can bet your ass she was more than happy to indulge in the benefits of sleeping with someone else. She broke the rules. Simple as that. You aren't here saying, "We agreed to an open marriage, she slept with someone, and I'm having trouble handling it." No, that isn't what happened. She broke the rules plain and simple, and the rules are what defines cheating. For some marriages, simply SPEAKING with a person of the opposite sex is cheating - others may allow hugging, maybe kissing, or yes, even sleeping with others. Cheating is defined by the players in the marriage. She cheated, plain and simple. What you are to do is based ONLY on that fact, not on the minutia that surrounds it. To me, the real pain of cheating is the dishonesty - the hiding of emotions and thoughts from your partner which eventually culminates in the cheating. Your wife had a series of secret thoughts and feelings which she didn't share with you. That right there is the real problem. That is the betrayal.. not having another penis inside her. It is that emotional separation from you that needs to be addressed. Why did she not share with you what she should have.
2long Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 So, you're okay with people here punishing you for being honest during the first conversation, and then not being clear enough about your rules during the 2nd one? I applaud you for being honest the first time. What you should have done is kept that dialog open, so that you could address why you've been thinking that way and the 2 of you could do something about it 2 protect your marriage and each other. The 2nd conversation, and the affair, AND your violent reaction tells me that neither one of you is ma2re enough 2 be married. And since you're not and you have no kids, the simplest (not necessarily the easiest) thing 2 do would be 2 cut your losses and start over with other partners, but wait until you've got your waterfowl coaxial. The other gal who your so-called "friend" is going for needs 2 have her husband warned. -ol' 2long
danmo Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) SuperPunk, you wrote - Thanks for your perspective, if you have a thread that has more to your story I'd be interested in reading it. I don't have a thread on here but if you're interested in my experiences please post your email & I would be glad to email you back. If you truely love your wife give her another chance, everyone makes mistakes.. Edited May 16, 2011 by danmo
reboot Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 It's a rare woman that can have sexual relationships without getting emotionally involved. Anyone that doesn't understand that doesn't understand women. Your terms and conditions were almost certainly doomed to failure no matter what.
nyrias Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 It's a rare woman that can have sexual relationships without getting emotionally involved. Anyone that doesn't understand that doesn't understand women. Your terms and conditions were almost certainly doomed to failure no matter what. Really? Is the practice of friends with benefits extremely rare then? Personally i have not encountered any but i heard about it. I am really curious how true is your statement. What is the percentage of women who cannot get into a sexual relationship without emotionally involved.
Author superpunk Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 It's a rare woman that can have sexual relationships without getting emotionally involved. Anyone that doesn't understand that doesn't understand women. Your terms and conditions were almost certainly doomed to failure no matter what. I understand all this. But from your perspective, what exactly did I do wrong other than sharing my feelings? Maybe I should have kept those to myself, for her sake, but that's all I did. As I mentioned, after I brought it up, and she seemed uneasy about it, I completely dropped it until she brought it back up, and seemed enthused about the idea. Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. weedsandposies, I want that time alone, but she is resisting it very much. She keeps saying that if I love her we can work this out, but we need to be together to work on it.
reboot Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 She's right. But if that isn't what you want, that's your prerogative. Just don't shift the blame to her.
danmo Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 It's a rare woman that can have sexual relationships without getting emotionally involved. Anyone that doesn't understand that doesn't understand women. Your terms and conditions were almost certainly doomed to failure no matter what. Well you might be surprised and as was mentioned friends with benefits is real. The idea of a woman having a relation just for physical part of it is becoming more and more accepted as the norm rather the opposite. mt persoanl experience with started about 7 years ago and has been wonderful for my marriage.
TigerCub Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 I understand all this. But from your perspective, what exactly did I do wrong other than sharing my feelings? Maybe I should have kept those to myself, for her sake, but that's all I did. As I mentioned, after I brought it up, and she seemed uneasy about it, I completely dropped it until she brought it back up, and seemed enthused about the idea. Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. weedsandposies, I want that time alone, but she is resisting it very much. She keeps saying that if I love her we can work this out, but we need to be together to work on it. This annoys me because it shows the same lack of respect to what YOU WANT, and WHAT YOU NEED. If you need time alone, you should have it without guilt. Yes, its true that if you love her you can work it out. That's possible, but you need to do what's best for you now. She needs to be able to show that she will respect your wishes, and not just guilt you into forgiving her betrayals. Don't let her manipulate you. If you need time alone, you need time alone - take it and process what you need to, then if you want to work things out - then you work things out.
Steadfast Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 It's hard enough to have a successful marriage without adding problems, but if it's any consolation you're not the first (or last) to play with fire. We often have to suffer the consequences of our thoughts, actions and words before we have the insight and desire to do the right thing. Other posters might be 'receptive' to it but even the concept of "open" and "marriage" is an oxymoron. IMO, you'd have to be a moron to think it ever works. It doesn't. But that doesn't mean the pull of taboo sexual desire lets up. If it isn't too late, offer a sincere, heartfelt apology to your wife and explain your outlook now; the way that you did in this message. The fact is, you pushed her towards this. The idea of cheating 'rules' is -sorry to be blunt- one of the stupidest things I've ever read. A recipe for disaster. If she's willing, find a local non-denominational church and request counseling, show your 'friend' the door (never speak to him again) tell his wife, then go about the business of trying to restore your relationship. If she isn't willing to do this, politely and respectfully divorce her and move on with your life. This is learning the lesson the hard way, but you brought it on yourself. It isn't too late to begin doing the right thing. Start today.
Chi townD Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 She's right. But if that isn't what you want, that's your prerogative. Just don't shift the blame to her. I don't like open marriages AT ALL, because this does happen. However, from what I read on open marriages, all of them do have some rules set in place, even the most OPEN of marriages have some sort of rules, whether it be to never bring anyone else in the marital bed, no kissing...whatever... SHE broke the rules that were set forth and established in the beginning and I'm kind of wondering about that. Why did she go from being cold about the idea in the beginning to all of the sudden excited about the idea? I have a feeling that his best friend and her have been toying with the idea of an affair and then he makes the comment about an open marriage and she now has his permission, almost like his blessing. The only problem was, it wasn't a stranger. It was his best friend.
jnj express Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 What were the rules for letting each other know you were actually having sex with others---was it spose to be done in secret, or were you spose to tell each other if you were gonna be with someone else Its obvious she didn't want you to know---and I think all along, even tho you brought up the subject---she probably knew you didn't really wanna do this So get to the bottom of this----WHY did she wanna have sex with others- --if she was truly into you/the mge., even if you brought up the sleeping around subject---she should have rejected it For now I suggest you keep up a strict 180, for she did go beyond the rules by getting emotionally involved Also the guy she had sex with is real scum, anyone who sleeps around on a pregnant wife is a real lowlife, scumbag---You need to delete him from your life completely
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